Provigil works

Question:

"Ericam630" <ericam…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20021212200403.11238.00000001@mb-ce.aol.com… > thanks M.  I did not know that.  Angel probably doesn’t have the $ for alcohol > so she’s safe.

You’re missing the point, Erica. Octacosanol IS an alcohol. ((U))   M

Response:

i take 200 mg 2-3 times a day.  works well without the caffeine hammering. ed – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -AngelsLulla…@webtv.net (Angel ___) writes: >Michael says "As for narcoleptics and their Provigil, that’s the only >use for which it’s actually approved by the FDA as far as I know." >Yes I believe you are right, Michael. I was diagnosed with idiopathic >hypersomnia, and given an rx of Provigil. The stuff is rediculuosly >expensive, especially for someone like me who has zero income. My plan >where I get my Neurontin and Topamax through will not cover it. I called >the line about patient assistance for the Provigil, and because I have >not been dx with narcolepsy itself, I am ineligible for the patient >assistance. The lady said they are fighting to get it approved for my >condition, because it is a form of narcolepsy. She said hopefully in >January it will be approved. Who knows. >I got a fourteen day supply, because the doc gave me a coupon for seven >free pills. They are 200mg pills, and the doc only prescribed me 100mg a >day. I have taken four of the pills, over a period of about three weeks. >They don’t seem to do anything for me, at least not much. I still get >very tired and sleepy a couple hours after I get up. When I take the >Provigil, there is no difference, except when I lay down to take a nap, >it takes me a little longer to actually get to sleep. And another thing >I have noticed is that when I take it, I seem to get a bad headache in >the front of my head, just behind the eyes. I am used to having a >constant headache in the back of my head at the base of my skull, but >this headache is totally different. Anyone else experience headache from >the Provigil? >Angel   >~~~Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.~~~ >~~~Dancing is a perpendicular statement of a horizontal desire.~~~

– ———————————————————————–   "The whole business of his life was in the plunder of his gaze…"                                                 Daniel Halevy on Degas | <include>ed’s 3d stuff | http://world.std.com/~ehill | 617-629-4625 |

Response:

Both Angel and I are too tired to pick up the parlance of MS remedies.  I paid for some Octosonal and NADH for Angel.  It will be delivered to her house.  But thanks for educating me.  Whem I say "vitamin" I mean, its not a drug.  Oops – you’ll probably correct me there too.  Its like Just take it! I figure once she gets a little energy we can work on her diet.  Thanks again for correcting me. Erica

Response:

hi Angel – have you ever tried NADH or Octasonal?  They’re both vitamins and I take them cause I wanted to give up coffee.  You can get them at a discount a puritan.com: http://www.puritan.com/scriptsp/htmlos.exe/49112.2.5253205053800021664? Erica

Response:

"Ericam630" <ericam…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20021212160759.18501.00000005@mb-ft.aol.com… > hi Angel – have you ever tried NADH or Octasonal?  They’re both vitamins and I > take them cause I wanted to give up coffee.  You can get them at a discount a > puritan.com: > http://www.puritan.com/scriptsp/htmlos.exe/49112.2.5253205053800021664?

NADH is not a vitamin.   It’s a co-enzyme that all animals and plants manufacture themselves from niacinamide (a vitamin) and other compounds… though it can be produced commercially and supplemented as you describe.  It is one of the most active reagents responsible for conversion of alcohols into more dangerous hepatotoxins, so people supplementing with this stuff should not consume alcohols. Octacosanol is not a vitamin.  It’s a long-chain alcohol. http://www.hcrc.org//faqs/octacos.html ((U))   M

Response:

thanks M.  I did not know that.  Angel probably doesn’t have the $ for alcohol so she’s safe. Erica

Response:

I think Provigil is great; it is probably the best thing for MS in the last ten years. BUT, it seems to stop working after about 2 months of daily use. I have found that taking one (200 mg) every OTHER day solves this problem. I have been using it for a couple of years and I plan my life around Provigil days! NC – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 08 Dec 2002 03:50:17 GMT, ewin…@earthlink.net (Stelle) wrote: >In response to the Amantadine and Provigil, I too had been told to >take Amantadine in the morning and slept all day and stayed awake all >night. I finally asked the doc if he would prescribe Provigil.  The >first doc said no, that he didn’t like too.  So,  I went to another >Family Doc and gave me 30 days worth.  He said it’s in a certain class >of drugs.  He then gave me another 30 days RX.  He said that’s all the >law allows him to do.  How do narcoleptics get their’s?  I now take >Amantadine at night and am sleeping very well.  My doc says that >Amantadine is supposed to make a person relaxed and sleepy.  So, >here’s another devotee of staying awake all day long, instead of >sitting and nodding off.  Hope others can find the relief of the >horrible.  There is nothing like the LASSITUDE of MS.  Stelle >On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:57:41 -0800, "Jim Stinnett" ><moto-r…@mindspring.com> wrote: >>Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, >>run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I >>sat down with my neuro and had a chat. >>She put me on amantadine. Results=0 >>She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight >>case of heebie jeebies >>She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and >>mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a >>tendency to feel a bit tense. >>This is day 4 and the side effects have somewhat subsided and it must be >>doing it’s job as by now I would be horizontal and going off to lala land. >>I have had no problem getting to sleep at bedtime so far either. Anyone else >>have an opinion on this stuff? >>Thanks… >>Jim Stinnett

To reply, post here. As spammers get more sophisticated, I have to hide deeper; no, I do not need to refinance my house!

Response:

Michael says "As for narcoleptics and their Provigil, that’s the only use for which it’s actually approved by the FDA as far as I know." Yes I believe you are right, Michael. I was diagnosed with idiopathic hypersomnia, and given an rx of Provigil. The stuff is rediculuosly expensive, especially for someone like me who has zero income. My plan where I get my Neurontin and Topamax through will not cover it. I called the line about patient assistance for the Provigil, and because I have not been dx with narcolepsy itself, I am ineligible for the patient assistance. The lady said they are fighting to get it approved for my condition, because it is a form of narcolepsy. She said hopefully in January it will be approved. Who knows. I got a fourteen day supply, because the doc gave me a coupon for seven free pills. They are 200mg pills, and the doc only prescribed me 100mg a day. I have taken four of the pills, over a period of about three weeks. They don’t seem to do anything for me, at least not much. I still get very tired and sleepy a couple hours after I get up. When I take the Provigil, there is no difference, except when I lay down to take a nap, it takes me a little longer to actually get to sleep. And another thing I have noticed is that when I take it, I seem to get a bad headache in the front of my head, just behind the eyes. I am used to having a constant headache in the back of my head at the base of my skull, but this headache is totally different. Anyone else experience headache from the Provigil? Angel   ~~~Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.~~~ ~~~Dancing is a perpendicular statement of a horizontal desire.~~~

Response:

Dear, dear Stelle…  where you been all this time? How right you are about the lassitude of MS…. but how different we all are in our responses to amantadine. If I wake up at 6am and take one of those funny red pills and go back to bed for three hours, I wake up refreshed.  If I take another one at ten or so, then by noon it’s like I’ve had and extra pint and a half of coffee… but without the extra jitters. Your doc says it’s supposed to make people relaxed and sleepy???    That’s not what it says in the patient handout, the PDR or the CPS.   Aside from its primary use as an anitviral, it’s very frequently given as a stimulant to keep people awake and decrease CNS fatigue. As for narcoleptics and their Provigil, that’s the only use for which it’s actually approved by the FDA as far as I know.  Off label uses of controlled drugs  - and it is one – are subject to all sorts of weird provisions in the US that I don’t know much about, being Canadian and all.   One thing about Provigil and all othe controlled drugs though: the DEA keeps tabs on doctors who prescribe them, so doctors are forced to cover their asses a lot. ((U))   M "Stelle" <ewin…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:3df2ba21.22223289@news.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In response to the Amantadine and Provigil, I too had been told to > take Amantadine in the morning and slept all day and stayed awake all > night. I finally asked the doc if he would prescribe Provigil.  The > first doc said no, that he didn’t like too.  So,  I went to another > Family Doc and gave me 30 days worth.  He said it’s in a certain class > of drugs.  He then gave me another 30 days RX.  He said that’s all the > law allows him to do.  How do narcoleptics get their’s?  I now take > Amantadine at night and am sleeping very well.  My doc says that > Amantadine is supposed to make a person relaxed and sleepy.  So, > here’s another devotee of staying awake all day long, instead of > sitting and nodding off.  Hope others can find the relief of the > horrible.  There is nothing like the LASSITUDE of MS.  Stelle > On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:57:41 -0800, "Jim Stinnett" > <moto-r…@mindspring.com> wrote: > >Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, > >run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I > >sat down with my neuro and had a chat. > >She put me on amantadine. Results=0 > >She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight > >case of heebie jeebies > >She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and > >mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a > >tendency to feel a bit tense. > >This is day 4 and the side effects have somewhat subsided and it must be > >doing it’s job as by now I would be horizontal and going off to lala land. > >I have had no problem getting to sleep at bedtime so far either. Anyone else > >have an opinion on this stuff? > >Thanks… > >Jim Stinnett

Response:

In response to the Amantadine and Provigil, I too had been told to take Amantadine in the morning and slept all day and stayed awake all night. I finally asked the doc if he would prescribe Provigil.  The first doc said no, that he didn’t like too.  So,  I went to another Family Doc and gave me 30 days worth.  He said it’s in a certain class of drugs.  He then gave me another 30 days RX.  He said that’s all the law allows him to do.  How do narcoleptics get their’s?  I now take Amantadine at night and am sleeping very well.  My doc says that Amantadine is supposed to make a person relaxed and sleepy.  So, here’s another devotee of staying awake all day long, instead of sitting and nodding off.  Hope others can find the relief of the horrible.  There is nothing like the LASSITUDE of MS.  Stelle On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 11:57:41 -0800, "Jim Stinnett" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<moto-r…@mindspring.com> wrote: >Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, >run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I >sat down with my neuro and had a chat. >She put me on amantadine. Results=0 >She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight >case of heebie jeebies >She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and >mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a >tendency to feel a bit tense. >This is day 4 and the side effects have somewhat subsided and it must be >doing it’s job as by now I would be horizontal and going off to lala land. >I have had no problem getting to sleep at bedtime so far either. Anyone else >have an opinion on this stuff? >Thanks… >Jim Stinnett

Response:

Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I sat down with my neuro and had a chat. She put me on amantadine. Results=0 She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight case of heebie jeebies She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a tendency to feel a bit tense. This is day 4 and the side effects have somewhat subsided and it must be doing it’s job as by now I would be horizontal and going off to lala land. I have had no problem getting to sleep at bedtime so far either. Anyone else have an opinion on this stuff? Thanks… Jim Stinnett

Response:

I love it.  If I have a busy day planned I take a whole pill.  Just regular days I take half of one.  Also, I skip days every once in awhile because if I get to feeling to edgy. "Jim Stinnett" <moto-r…@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:a60jjb$6re$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net… | Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, | run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I | sat down with my neuro and had a chat. | She put me on amantadine. Results=0 | She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight | case of heebie jeebies | She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and | mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a | tendency to feel a bit tense. | This is day 4 and the side effects have somewhat subsided and it must be | doing it’s job as by now I would be horizontal and going off to lala land. | I have had no problem getting to sleep at bedtime so far either. Anyone else | have an opinion on this stuff? | Thanks… | Jim Stinnett | |

Response:

Yes it’s great.  But be prepared for it to lose it’s effectiveness.  You may want to try not using it on weekends.  Or take a week or more off it when/if you notice a change.  I found that ritalin or dexadrine worked well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim Stinnett wrote: > Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, > run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I > sat down with my neuro and had a chat. > She put me on amantadine. Results=0 > She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight > case of heebie jeebies > She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and > mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a > tendency to feel a bit tense. > This is day 4 and the side effects have somewhat subsided and it must be > doing it’s job as by now I would be horizontal and going off to lala land. > I have had no problem getting to sleep at bedtime so far either. Anyone else > have an opinion on this stuff? > Thanks… > Jim Stinnett

– Eliz. ^^^^^ "The sun came out on Wednesday, but it didn’t reach into the black despair caused by your separation. It is a cultural desert here. Thank God I have brought my Nevil Shute books" Adrian Mole

Response:

"Jim Stinnett" <moto-r…@mindspring.com> wrote in message <news:a60jjb$6re$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>… > Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, > run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I > sat down with my neuro and had a chat. > She put me on amantadine. Results=0

I had that way back in the day — same thing, only it made me constantly sick to my stomach as well! > She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight > case of heebie jeebies

Hey — moi aussi (acutally, moi Yank but…you know, LOL). Also been on Ritalin, Phentermine, and Cylert. Those all ‘worked’ to the extent that they made me ‘not-sleepy’ but NOT not fatigued. > She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and > mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a > tendency to feel a bit tense.

I heard about it and asked my neuro, oh must be about a year back now…he told me it was yet another of those $1k a month drugs that I can’t afford because I’m straight Medicare. Husband makes *just* over the amount that would qualify me for Medicaid. I have heard many good things about it, but it’s a struggle for us, just to afford the valium and the stinking Tegretol. My neuro works with me to find the cheapest stuff. When the clinical trial for the Rebif ends I’ll be back where i’ve been for the last 12 years since diagnosis…hearing about the latest, greatest, miracle drugs that do wonders for everyone, that I can’t afford. Sorry to sound bitter — it’s been a rough period. I *have* heard good things about it, though, and wish you all the best — truly and sincerely, no snottiness intended. Peace, Rose

Response:

Glad you found relief.  I have been on provigil – 400mg in the am for over a year and it has helped me stay somewhat functional.  I also take between 20-40mg of ritalin at about 2pm on work days. j jkl

Response:

bunny <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message <news:3C83E5AF.1C15C9D6@shaw.ca>… > Yes it’s great.  But be prepared for it to lose it’s effectiveness.  You > may want to try not using it on weekends.  Or take a week or more off it > when/if you notice a change.  I found that ritalin or dexadrine worked > well.

Personally, that’s what I do. I take 200 in the mornings, but I skip weekends. After a while, the Provigil lost its effectiveness, and I switched over to an herbal supplement (one of those power pep type of herbal supplements) after discussing it with my neuro (his only caviat was that if I was taking the supplements to NOT take Provigil, and vice versa). I did the herbal supplements for a few months, and they started wearing off. So I switched back to Provigil, and Voila! I’m back to being nice peppy self in the morning. I figure in a few months I’ll probably switch back to the herbal as the provigil wears off again… and vice versa. If I don’t take either one? I’m a total basket case. i.e. my husband can’t get me out of bed in the morning, and I’ll be napping all day long. Like last weekend when I should have been packing to move. Cyd

Response:

A true knight would never let his fair maid PACK TO MOVE for god’s sake. ‘Lady Celena’ and packing tape just doesn’t sound right. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lady Celena wrote: > bunny <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote in message <news:3C83E5AF.1C15C9D6@shaw.ca>… > > Yes it’s great.  But be prepared for it to lose it’s effectiveness.  You > > may want to try not using it on weekends.  Or take a week or more off it > > when/if you notice a change.  I found that ritalin or dexadrine worked > > well. > Personally, that’s what I do. I take 200 in the mornings, but I skip > weekends. After a while, the Provigil lost its effectiveness, and I > switched over to an herbal supplement (one of those power pep type of > herbal supplements) after discussing it with my neuro (his only caviat > was that if I was taking the supplements to NOT take Provigil, and > vice versa). I did the herbal supplements for a few months, and they > started wearing off. So I switched back to Provigil, and Voila! I’m > back to being nice peppy self in the morning. I figure in a few months > I’ll probably switch back to the herbal as the provigil wears off > again… and vice versa. > If I don’t take either one? I’m a total basket case. i.e. my husband > can’t get me out of bed in the morning, and I’ll be napping all day > long. Like last weekend when I should have been packing to move. > Cyd

– Eliz. ^^^^^ "The sun came out on Wednesday, but it didn’t reach into the black despair caused by your separation. It is a cultural desert here. Thank God I have brought my Nevil Shute books" Adrian Mole

Response:

Dear Rose, In regards to your comment that "my neuro… told me it [Provigil] was yet another of those $1k a month drugs that I can’t afford because I’m straight Medicare." Provigil is expensive, but not that much.  I get mine (200 mg) for $140 a month through AARP {they have a discount pharmacy service). Provigil helps me to stay alert longer.  DHEA also helps. Bill Timmerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -rose dawn scott wrote: > "Jim Stinnett" <moto-r…@mindspring.com> wrote in message <news:a60jjb$6re$1@slb7.atl.mindspring.net>… > > Ok, so after I had fallen into a pattern of wake up, fall asleep, wake up, > > run out of gas, fall asleep or just lie there like a zombie on most days, I > > sat down with my neuro and had a chat. > > She put me on amantadine. Results=0 > I had that way back in the day — same thing, only it made me > constantly sick to my stomach as well! > > She then tried me on a low dose of prozac ( 20mgs daily)= 0 but with slight > > case of heebie jeebies > Hey — moi aussi (acutally, moi Yank but…you know, LOL). > Also been on Ritalin, Phentermine, and Cylert. Those all ‘worked’ to > the extent that they made me ‘not-sleepy’ but NOT not fatigued. > > She then suggested Modanifil ( Provigil )= I actually stayed awake and > > mostly alert for an entire day, albeit with just a tinge of edginess, and a > > tendency to feel a bit tense. > I heard about it and asked my neuro, oh must be about a year back > now…he told me it was yet another of those $1k a month drugs that I > can’t afford because I’m straight Medicare. Husband makes *just* over > the amount that would qualify me for Medicaid. I have heard many good > things about it, but it’s a struggle for us, just to afford the valium > and the stinking Tegretol. My neuro works with me to find the cheapest > stuff. When the clinical trial for the Rebif ends I’ll be back where > i’ve been for the last 12 years since diagnosis…hearing about the > latest, greatest, miracle drugs that do wonders for everyone, that I > can’t afford. > Sorry to sound bitter — it’s been a rough period. I *have* heard good > things about it, though, and wish you all the best — truly and > sincerely, no snottiness intended. > Peace, > Rose

Response:

Dabrinah <dabri…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020308180934.15409.00000183@mb-cj.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s wonderful for me.  I’m not exagerating when I say it’s given me back my > life. > I skip some days, and then I really miss it, but so far it hasn’t stopped being > effective.  I take half a pill in the a.m. (100 mg).  Very rarely do I take the > other half (makes me too nervous). > I think it is *not as expensive as those MS miracle drugs (of which I have > tried Beta and Copax with bad results).  Something over $100 U.S. > *Not posting to ng — I’m taking a rest for a while.

Response:

Well that would explain it… He’s a minstrel, not a knight. Cyd – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bunny <cocobu…@shaw.ca> wrote: > A true knight would never let his fair maid PACK TO MOVE for god’s sake. > ‘Lady Celena’ and packing tape just doesn’t sound right. > Lady Celena wrote: > > If I don’t take either one? I’m a total basket case. i.e. my husband > > can’t get me out of bed in the morning, and I’ll be napping all day > > long. Like last weekend when I should have been packing to move. > > Cyd

Response:

chin strap and TMJ

Question:

"kietz" <hkman00…@oohay.com> wrote: >> I’ve seen chin-up strips mentioned favorably, http://www.chin-up.com >Just wanted to mention chin-up strips UNfavorably.  I tried them for a few >weeks and they did not help at all.  I can’t get rid of my chin-strap, and >was hoping that those would help.  Some nights it seems they did. The number >of nights they didn’t seemed to be increasing the longer I used them  I >believe they had a money back guarantee when I bought mine, but I couldn’t >find that on their site again.

Thanks!  I’d never tried them myself. >A 60 day supply was pretty cheap and they may work for you.  If anybody has >used them successfully, I would like to hear from you.

I’d also be interested. Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 18 Nov 2001 13:00:43 -0500, nykla…@capital.net wrote: >I’m having yet *another* problem (scream!!).  I was sleeping with my >mouth open, so got a chin strap to hold my mouth closed.  I have to >secure it quite tight, otherwise I still manage to crack my mouth open. >Problem is, the chin strap puts pressure on my jaw that is transmitted >to my TMJ, and I’m starting to get TMJ-type headaches again. >The chin strap I’m using is a single strap, secured with velcro.  I >angle it towards the back of my head – if I pull it straight up towards >the crown of my head, it tends to slide off. >Are there any other chin strap setups that work better?  I really, >really don’t want to go to a full-face mask, I finally got a mask that >fits right and isn’t painful, and I don’t want to go through that >process again if I can help it. >Thanks >Cath

Yes I did have the same issue with not being able to kept my mouth close while sleeping with Cpap.   I did also try a chin strap however I would just simply crack my mouth while sleeping so the chin strap was totaly useless.  I did talk with someone about it and they explaned to me that in most cases it is a issue of the need for humidifation.  So I then tried a humitfiyer to see if that help.  And still I would open my mouth.  Now I’m using a full face mask and I have been sleeping the best ever with my cpap!! Interestingly I resently tried my cpap with out the cold humitifyer w/ the full face and I woke up in the morning with a headace and I was totaly congesseted.  Dry air tends to make sinises narrow from what I understand. Note I did try heated and non heated with chin strap and still I would crack my mouth open. Hope that helps! Age 29 6′4 215 Lbs Good Health other then OSA, Delayed Sleep Sydrum, Hypersomnia, mild dislexya Unit: Repironics Virtuoso LX Smart Cpap System Programed for Cpap Mode (not auto) Pressure: @7 cm Resmed Mirage Full Face Mask Sleep test results: (coming soon!) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– >http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >—–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kietz wrote: > > I’ve seen chin-up strips mentioned favorably, http://www.chin-up.com > Just wanted to mention chin-up strips UNfavorably.  I tried them for a few > weeks and they did not help at all.  I can’t get rid of my chin-strap, and > was hoping that those would help.  Some nights it seems they did. The number > of nights they didn’t seemed to be increasing the longer I used them  I > believe they had a money back guarantee when I bought mine, but I couldn’t > find that on their site again. > A 60 day supply was pretty cheap and they may work for you.  If anybody has > used them successfully, I would like to hear from you. I still have a few > and am getting tired of my chin-strap.  (Taping my mouth shut is not > something I am willing to try). > I have tried many of the tips on this ng, but just can’t seem to sleep with > my mouth shut without that strap > — > reverse something to e-mail

When I gave up the useless chin strap, I started using chin-up strips (sample set kindly provided by Patrick Richards).  I didn’t have any problems with them, but my full beard didn’t help any; however, I only used them 5 nights before going on vacation and forgetting them.  So I went to several drug stores in Vermont trying to find some, not realizing that they were only available on the inet.  When I couldn’t find any, I bought tape (like that also provided by Patrick), but I could only find 3/4", so I used two strips.  When I got home I started using 1" and it only took one strip.  I’d say the tape worked better than the chin-up strips.

Response:

nykla…@capital.net wrote: >I talked to my technician today – unfortunately he has >never had anybody with this problem before, and didn’t have a clue, beyond >raising the CPAP pressure. He said that often people respond by closing >their mouths.

Interesting, I’d never heard that before. >He’s going to call and talk to the sleep lab people, and I think I will >also, with the ideas you put forward. The athletic mouthguard might at least >hold my jaw in position, preventing the pressure on the TMJ.

Also check with your dentist, he may be able to come up with something that fits better. BTW, have you tried learning to sleep with your tongue touching the roof of your mouth?  It’s allowed several of us to ash-can our chin straps. Tom

Response:

> I’ve seen chin-up strips mentioned favorably, http://www.chin-up.com

Just wanted to mention chin-up strips UNfavorably.  I tried them for a few weeks and they did not help at all.  I can’t get rid of my chin-strap, and was hoping that those would help.  Some nights it seems they did. The number of nights they didn’t seemed to be increasing the longer I used them  I believe they had a money back guarantee when I bought mine, but I couldn’t find that on their site again. A 60 day supply was pretty cheap and they may work for you.  If anybody has used them successfully, I would like to hear from you. I still have a few and am getting tired of my chin-strap.  (Taping my mouth shut is not something I am willing to try). I have tried many of the tips on this ng, but just can’t seem to sleep with my mouth shut without that strap — reverse something to e-mail

Response:

nykla…@capital.net writes: > I’m having yet *another* problem (scream!!).  I was sleeping with my > mouth open, so got a chin strap to hold my mouth closed.  I have to > secure it quite tight, otherwise I still manage to crack my mouth open. > Problem is, the chin strap puts pressure on my jaw that is transmitted > to my TMJ, and I’m starting to get TMJ-type headaches again. > The chin strap I’m using is a single strap, secured with velcro.  I > angle it towards the back of my head – if I pull it straight up towards > the crown of my head, it tends to slide off. > Are there any other chin strap setups that work better?  I really, > really don’t want to go to a full-face mask, I finally got a mask that > fits right and isn’t painful, and I don’t want to go through that > process again if I can help it.

I don’t have quite your problem, but I couldn’t keep my old strap on (it was a single loop of fabric with velcro fasteners), and after awhile, just didn’t bother with the strap.  My problem is my hair is so greasy at night, the strap would slide off.  A few days ago, I finally went in and got the nasal pillows the doctor had written me a prescription for a few months ago, and got a new chin strap.  This strap has a cup that your chin fits in, rather than just the strap, and it has velcro on the sides that can attach to the straps on the nasal pillow gear.  In the few days I’ve been using the pillows, I do find the straps for the nasal pillows will ride up occasionally, and I have pull the straps back down, but I can do it, and fall back asleep. — Michael Meissner, Red Hat, Inc.  (GCC group) PMB 198, 174 Littleton Road #3, Westford, Massachusetts 01886, USA Work:     meiss…@redhat.com            phone: +1 978-486-9304 Non-work: meiss…@spectacle-pond.org    fax:   +1 978-692-4482

Response:

NormC wrote:… > …BTW, mine also slipped off at least 6 out of 7 nights.  I didn’t want to go to a > full face mask either, so I started using tape.  When I had tape on and held my > nose closed, voila! no air whatsoever – just like the tongue up trick.

Last night I managed to tie the chin strap to the face mask harness so that it was held on, without slipping forward. It helped the TMJ problem, but now this morning I have a headache from where it pressed on the top of my head.  You can’t win!! > Breathing through my mouth was a new action for me – no recognizable reason for > doing so.  As a result I went to (among others) a maxillo facial surgeon.  He > thought that when I laid down, as the blood redistributed in my body, my > turbinates could be swelling, causing me to breath through my mouth.  He > suggested autocpap, which I had been thinking about for a while.  I just made > arrangements with the sleep lab to use one for a week. > If you haven’t ever been a mouth breather, maybe this is your problem also.  I’m > interested in knowing if you just started breathing through your mouth since you > started using CPAP.

Definitely since I started using CPAP – I assumed it’s a reaction to the amount of effort required to breathe out. I’m going to call the sleep lab today. I’ll be interested to hear what they suggest. Cath —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Tom, thank you.  I talked to my technician today – unfortunately he has never had anybody with this problem before, and didn’t have a clue, beyond raising the CPAP pressure. He said that often people respond by closing their mouths. He’s going to call and talk to the sleep lab people, and I think I will also, with the ideas you put forward. The athletic mouthguard might at least hold my jaw in position, preventing the pressure on the TMJ. Thanks Cath Tom Devlin wrote: > ….Several people here have used "boil and fit" athletic mouthguards to > handle mouth breathing, it there any chance that one would help your > problem?  It might let you slack off the chin strap pressure. I think > they come in two versions, one with a vent between the teeth and one > with no vent, you’d want the latter. > ….Joe has this one, http://www.cpapman.com/fc.html > I’ve seen chin-up strips mentioned favorably, http://www.chin-up.com > And someone here recommended the Veronique chinstrap, they have > several models. http://www.designveronique.com/ > Tom

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

nykla…@capital.net wrote: >I’m having yet *another* problem (scream!!).  I was sleeping with my >mouth open, so got a chin strap to hold my mouth closed.  I have to >secure it quite tight, otherwise I still manage to crack my mouth open. >Problem is, the chin strap puts pressure on my jaw that is transmitted >to my TMJ, and I’m starting to get TMJ-type headaches again.

Several people here have used "boil and fit" athletic mouthguards to handle mouth breathing, it there any chance that one would help your problem?  It might let you slack off the chin strap pressure. I think they come in two versions, one with a vent between the teeth and one with no vent, you’d want the latter. >Are there any other chin strap setups that work better?  I really, >really don’t want to go to a full-face mask, I finally got a mask that >fits right and isn’t painful, and I don’t want to go through that >process again if I can help it.

Joe has this one, http://www.cpapman.com/fc.html I’ve seen chin-up strips mentioned favorably, http://www.chin-up.com And someone here recommended the Veronique chinstrap, they have several models. http://www.designveronique.com/ Tom

Response:

I’m having yet *another* problem (scream!!).  I was sleeping with my mouth open, so got a chin strap to hold my mouth closed.  I have to secure it quite tight, otherwise I still manage to crack my mouth open. Problem is, the chin strap puts pressure on my jaw that is transmitted to my TMJ, and I’m starting to get TMJ-type headaches again. The chin strap I’m using is a single strap, secured with velcro.  I angle it towards the back of my head – if I pull it straight up towards the crown of my head, it tends to slide off. Are there any other chin strap setups that work better?  I really, really don’t want to go to a full-face mask, I finally got a mask that fits right and isn’t painful, and I don’t want to go through that process again if I can help it. Thanks Cath —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–==  Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

nykla…@capital.net wrote: > I’m having yet *another* problem (scream!!).  I was sleeping with my > mouth open, so got a chin strap to hold my mouth closed.  I have to > secure it quite tight, otherwise I still manage to crack my mouth open. > Problem is, the chin strap puts pressure on my jaw that is transmitted > to my TMJ, and I’m starting to get TMJ-type headaches again. > The chin strap I’m using is a single strap, secured with velcro.  I > angle it towards the back of my head – if I pull it straight up towards > the crown of my head, it tends to slide off. > Are there any other chin strap setups that work better?  I really, > really don’t want to go to a full-face mask, I finally got a mask that > fits right and isn’t painful, and I don’t want to go through that > process again if I can help it.

I’ve sort of been going through a similar problem.  Because of my problem, I had been planning on posting a new thread titled, "You must have special jaw and teeth layout to use a chin strap".  However, I’ll just put my comments here. Note that the first paragraph below is nearly identical to your first paragraph!!!! I’m having yet *another* problem (scream!!).  I was sleeping with my mouth open, so got a chin strap to hold my mouth closed.  I have to secure it quite tight; otherwise mouth/jaw will not be completely closed. Problem is, it is very uncomfortable, puts pressure on my jaw which I feel the next day, and I’m sure it was responsible for a gold inlay falling out. What really pisses me off is that it was expensive, never helped, and, IMHO, there is no possible way it could help me.  Why, you may ask.  Well, if I bite down the way I do with the chin strap, and pinch my nose closed, I can still breath though my teeth.  I admit it’s obstructed breathing and not the least bit satisfactory, but how does one know if it is helping one bit? As a final experiment, as I was breathing through my teeth, I moved my tongue up as far as I could…. and I could no longer breath.  Not that this is a new discovery, just a verification that tongue up can totally eliminate mouth breathing.  However, I don’t seem to be able to do it.  But I am still trying. BTW, mine also slipped off at least 6 out of 7 nights.  I didn’t want to go to a full face mask either, so I started using tape.  When I had tape on and held my nose closed, voila! no air whatsoever – just like the tongue up trick. Breathing through my mouth was a new action for me – no recognizable reason for doing so.  As a result I went to (among others) a maxillo facial surgeon.  He thought that when I laid down, as the blood redistributed in my body, my turbinates could be swelling, causing me to breath through my mouth.  He suggested autocpap, which I had been thinking about for a while.  I just made arrangements with the sleep lab to use one for a week. If you haven’t ever been a mouth breather, maybe this is your problem also.  I’m interested in knowing if you just started breathing through your mouth since you started using CPAP.

Response:

Remeron- is anyone on this med ?

Question:

I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.

I was on it until recently, with similar problems.  Have you considered taking it earlier in the evening?  How’s it working for you, otherwise? cp — ***** Where the bee sucks, there suck I. ***** *                                            * *       http://www.charlespadgett.com        * *                                            *

Response:

I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.. I was lucky my 16 year old was there because he watched the baby for me. I finally dragged my butt up at noon but still tired.  I can’t keep this up.  Its scary and it makes me a bad mom.  any thoughts ?   Lisa

I felt drowsy while on the med but actually I have sleep problems and thus it allowed me to sleep. I was on a very low dose. I was original put on it because my pdoc at the time thought I was underweight. I gained about 20 lbs and then asked this pdoc if I could easily stop taking it and she said yes. And I did!! Melia I am more myself in Solitude. For in solitude I am myself.                            -Melia Benjamin (c)August 2000

Response:

I’m supposed to be taking Remeron right now, but I haven’t in over 2 weeks for the same reason. I felt groggy and tired all the time, and slept WAY too much… Tell your doc to swithch you to *anything* else, the drug is not good, INMHO. BlueHawK – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.. I was lucky my 16 year old was there because he watched the baby for me. I finally dragged my butt up at noon but still tired.  I can’t keep this up.  Its scary and it makes me a bad mom.  any thoughts ?   Lisa

Response:

 I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.. I was lucky my 16 year old was there because he watched the baby for me. I finally dragged my butt up at noon but still tired.  I can’t keep this up.  Its scary and it makes me a bad mom.  any thoughts ?   Lisa

I was on that med about 3 years ago.  I took in the morning, and it made me *very* sleepy.  It was so bad that it was impossible for me to function in the morning.  Didn’t do much for my depression, though and my pdoc soon got me off of it.  I think there are definitely better meds out there that don’t have the hypersomnia side effect. Eddie

Response:

thanks Rj.  It actually works the other way with this med. the higher the dose, the less sleepiness. wired. I will be talking to him next week. Thanks, Lisa

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.. I was lucky my 16 year old was there because he watched the baby for me. I finally dragged my butt up at noon but still tired.  I can’t keep this up.  Its scary and it makes me a bad mom.  any thoughts ?   Lisa i took remeron for awhile. it had the same effect on me. talk to your pdoc or doctor as soon as you can. maybe a lowered dosage would help you. or maybe you need to be on something else. rj.

Response:

I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.. I was lucky my 16 year old was there because he watched the baby for me. I finally dragged my butt up at noon but still tired.  I can’t keep this up.  Its scary and it makes me a bad mom.  any thoughts ?   Lisa

i took remeron for awhile. it had the same effect on me. talk to your pdoc or doctor as soon as you can. maybe a lowered dosage would help you. or maybe you need to be on something else. rj.

Response:

 I’m having the problem of being able to wake up in the morning. this morning, even after a shower, I kept falling asleep.. I was lucky my 16 year old was there because he watched the baby for me. I finally dragged my butt up at noon but still tired.  I can’t keep this up.  Its scary and it makes me a bad mom.  any thoughts ?   Lisa

Response:

mouth breathing

Question:

Am I missing something? Is 90% oxygen good???  I thought 98% was good and anything lower than that was bad…but I could have misunderstood. I’m also a mouth breath, or a better description would be ‘mouth spouter’…. my teeth are together, the chin strap is holding my jaw shut, but even so the pressure make me blow raspberries through my lips – now that’s something that definitely stops CPAP from working as it should!  Try it…relax, clench your jaw and blow air out…see how easy it is In the end, after trying various bought and home-made chin straps, I had to go with a full face mask.  I’m definitely a fan of them as there’s much less clutter around your head than with a nose mask & chin strap.  I still sometimes mouth breath (you still get a very dry mouth so it’s easy to tell) but I’m no longer losing pressure during treatment, and the equalized pressure between my nose & mouth seems to make sure I only mouth breath when I’m more congested. I prefer the Mirage to the Comfort full, but as you’ll already know, mask preference is a very personal experience   One word of advice if you do get a full face mask though…. make sure you get one with quick release clips!!  To me they are the #1 feature (other than fit & comfort of course!) you can have.  It makes life so much easier when you have a nose itch or even just the every day on & off of the mask without having to adjust & re-adjust the fit makes such a difference. My local DME tried to convince me to take the Mirage series 2 a few weeks ago…that one is the old model with no quick release clips…but I knew better and stood my ground – amazingly 2 days later they managed to get me an Ultra Mirage FFM Unfortunately I’m also still fighting the sleepies (with an AHI of <5 on CPAP, no narcolepsy, good oxygen levels, but multiple spontaneous arousals for no known reason….can we say hello to an idiopathic hypersomnia diagnosis?! humph!) the sleepies are nowhere near as bad as they were pre-CPAP, but they still interfere with everyday life….so all I can say now is thank goodness for Provigil!! It’s not perfect, but it’s a way to get through life I hope you can find a way to stop mouth breathing and you get back to a good sleep routine again Joanne "Darrell" <Boomer1031nos…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:A8GdnbP8bdH7LwfdRVn-jw@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The finger oxygen monitor test I had done last week showed my oxygen levels > throughout the night were good.  Most of the time I was at 90%.  For a short > time my oxygen levels dropped to 85%.  So evidently my machine is working as > it should.  However, as I mentioned before, I have a really hard time with > the sleepies. > I woke up during the night and as usual, my mouth felt like the Sahara > Desert.  I was awake enough to think to press my tongue against my lips to > see if they were closed.  Lo and behold, there was a crack between my lips. > I really thought that after 6+ years on CPAP I would be keeping my lips > closed, but I guess I was wrong.  Actually, I thought of mouth breathing as > having my mouth open ~~WIDE~~. > So now I have a rx for a nose and mouth mask and an appointment Monday to > see the respiratory guy to fit me.  My question is, does mouth breathing > have to do with my sleepies?  As long as my oxygen levels are good through > the night, I think I should be awake and alert all day.  Or does my search > for the cure to the sleepies continue?

Response:

The finger oxygen monitor test I had done last week showed my oxygen levels throughout the night were good.  Most of the time I was at 90%.  For a short time my oxygen levels dropped to 85%.  So evidently my machine is working as it should.  However, as I mentioned before, I have a really hard time with the sleepies. I woke up during the night and as usual, my mouth felt like the Sahara Desert.  I was awake enough to think to press my tongue against my lips to see if they were closed.  Lo and behold, there was a crack between my lips. I really thought that after 6+ years on CPAP I would be keeping my lips closed, but I guess I was wrong.  Actually, I thought of mouth breathing as having my mouth open ~~WIDE~~. So now I have a rx for a nose and mouth mask and an appointment Monday to see the respiratory guy to fit me.  My question is, does mouth breathing have to do with my sleepies?  As long as my oxygen levels are good through the night, I think I should be awake and alert all day.  Or does my search for the cure to the sleepies continue?

Response:

If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of physics!) And yes, mouth breathing encourages the sleepies since some of the airflow/pressure which is supposed to keep your airway open is instead rushing out your mouth, thus diminishing the effectiveness of the CPAP. regards, eric pearson nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net On Thu, 6 May 2004 15:44:03 -0700, "Darrell" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<Boomer1031nos…@comcast.net> wrote: >The finger oxygen monitor test I had done last week showed my oxygen levels >throughout the night were good.  Most of the time I was at 90%.  For a short >time my oxygen levels dropped to 85%.  So evidently my machine is working as >it should.  However, as I mentioned before, I have a really hard time with >the sleepies. >I woke up during the night and as usual, my mouth felt like the Sahara >Desert.  I was awake enough to think to press my tongue against my lips to >see if they were closed.  Lo and behold, there was a crack between my lips. >I really thought that after 6+ years on CPAP I would be keeping my lips >closed, but I guess I was wrong.  Actually, I thought of mouth breathing as >having my mouth open ~~WIDE~~. >So now I have a rx for a nose and mouth mask and an appointment Monday to >see the respiratory guy to fit me.  My question is, does mouth breathing >have to do with my sleepies?  As long as my oxygen levels are good through >the night, I think I should be awake and alert all day.  Or does my search >for the cure to the sleepies continue?

Response:

I cannot use a chin strap.  I use "Secure-Comfort Cloth Tape" .  It says no scissors required for the special "tear line" but I find Scissors work better.  I cut off  two pieces  with 2 sections.  I make an "X" over my mouth.  My husband wore earplugs for 12 years but he says I am a quiet sleeper now. "Donald" <zdiam…@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:BykAc.107462$3x.32381@attbi_s54… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have to tape my mouth shut also.  Otherwise the air will blow out between > my lips and I will awaken from giving myself the raspberries.  This is along > with a good chinstrap.  I use paper tape. > "Joann Althoff" <althof…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:fL4Ac.2227$bs4.1011@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > Taping my mouth is the only way I could solve the problem of mouth > > breathing.  Johnson and Johnson cloth tape (scored ever inch and a half) > is > > the only kind I’ve found that doesn’t leave a sticky mouth. > > That means I can use just a nasal mask (Respironics) with 5 adjustable > > straps.  I use a bobby pin to hold the top strap to my hair and can turn > > with very little adjustment.    I have used my machine for almost a year. > > "Chuck" <n…@nospam.com> wrote in message > > news:7gtt90h43pqr16h8516afig6sglfkhnbbr@4ax.com… > > > On Sun, 09 May 2004 11:02:24 -0500, Alan Moor…@visi.com wrote: > > > >On Thu, 06 May 2004 20:28:33 -0400, eric pearson > > > ><nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net> wrote: > > > >>If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) > > > >>chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more > > > >>leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of > > > >>physics!) > > > >>And yes, mouth breathing encourages the sleepies since some of the > > > >>airflow/pressure which is supposed to keep your airway open is instead > > > >>rushing out your mouth, thus diminishing the effectiveness of the > > > >>CPAP. > > > >Despite what everyone says about being able to close your mouth with a > > > >chin strap, I’ve never been able to make mine close against the CPAP > > > >pressure — at least not when I’m asleep! > > > >I’m pretty sure of two things: > > > >1.  When you’re really asleep, you have no control over your mouth, > > > >and it will do whatever it wants to do.  Usually that means relax and > > > >sag open enough to leak. > > > When I’m on CPAP (Nasal mask) It takes effort to open mouth at all. > > > Then it takes a lot of effort to get tongue to move forward out of way > > > to cause air leak. (though I have awaken to find my mouth open and air > > > leaking out. But this is rare for me) > > > I guess it depends on individuals size shape of tongue, back of throat > > > etc… > > > >2.  If the air is getting into your nose and out your mouth, it is > > > >also getting into the back of your mouth so you can breathe without > > > >apneas.   (This is my opinion after studying the illustrations at my > > > >doctor’s office of the air passageways in our noses/mouths going to > > > >our lungs.)  Especially if you have an APAP instead of a CPAP.  The > > > >APAP will do what it has to do. > > > >I’ve tried several things, including moldable mouth protectors, but > > > >nothing has been able to stop my mouth breathing.  (Don’t think it > > > >happens every night, but I’m not sure.)

Response:

I have to tape my mouth shut also.  Otherwise the air will blow out between my lips and I will awaken from giving myself the raspberries.  This is along with a good chinstrap.  I use paper tape. "Joann Althoff" <althof…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:fL4Ac.2227$bs4.1011@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Taping my mouth is the only way I could solve the problem of mouth > breathing.  Johnson and Johnson cloth tape (scored ever inch and a half) is > the only kind I’ve found that doesn’t leave a sticky mouth. > That means I can use just a nasal mask (Respironics) with 5 adjustable > straps.  I use a bobby pin to hold the top strap to my hair and can turn > with very little adjustment.    I have used my machine for almost a year. > "Chuck" <n…@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:7gtt90h43pqr16h8516afig6sglfkhnbbr@4ax.com… > > On Sun, 09 May 2004 11:02:24 -0500, Alan Moor…@visi.com wrote: > > >On Thu, 06 May 2004 20:28:33 -0400, eric pearson > > ><nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net> wrote: > > >>If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) > > >>chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more > > >>leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of > > >>physics!) > > >>And yes, mouth breathing encourages the sleepies since some of the > > >>airflow/pressure which is supposed to keep your airway open is instead > > >>rushing out your mouth, thus diminishing the effectiveness of the > > >>CPAP. > > >Despite what everyone says about being able to close your mouth with a > > >chin strap, I’ve never been able to make mine close against the CPAP > > >pressure — at least not when I’m asleep! > > >I’m pretty sure of two things: > > >1.  When you’re really asleep, you have no control over your mouth, > > >and it will do whatever it wants to do.  Usually that means relax and > > >sag open enough to leak. > > When I’m on CPAP (Nasal mask) It takes effort to open mouth at all. > > Then it takes a lot of effort to get tongue to move forward out of way > > to cause air leak. (though I have awaken to find my mouth open and air > > leaking out. But this is rare for me) > > I guess it depends on individuals size shape of tongue, back of throat > > etc… > > >2.  If the air is getting into your nose and out your mouth, it is > > >also getting into the back of your mouth so you can breathe without > > >apneas.   (This is my opinion after studying the illustrations at my > > >doctor’s office of the air passageways in our noses/mouths going to > > >our lungs.)  Especially if you have an APAP instead of a CPAP.  The > > >APAP will do what it has to do. > > >I’ve tried several things, including moldable mouth protectors, but > > >nothing has been able to stop my mouth breathing.  (Don’t think it > > >happens every night, but I’m not sure.)

Response:

Taping my mouth is the only way I could solve the problem of mouth breathing.  Johnson and Johnson cloth tape (scored ever inch and a half) is the only kind I’ve found that doesn’t leave a sticky mouth. That means I can use just a nasal mask (Respironics) with 5 adjustable straps.  I use a bobby pin to hold the top strap to my hair and can turn with very little adjustment.    I have used my machine for almost a year. "Chuck" <n…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:7gtt90h43pqr16h8516afig6sglfkhnbbr@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Sun, 09 May 2004 11:02:24 -0500, Alan Moor…@visi.com wrote: > >On Thu, 06 May 2004 20:28:33 -0400, eric pearson > ><nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net> wrote: > >>If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) > >>chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more > >>leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of > >>physics!) > >>And yes, mouth breathing encourages the sleepies since some of the > >>airflow/pressure which is supposed to keep your airway open is instead > >>rushing out your mouth, thus diminishing the effectiveness of the > >>CPAP. > >Despite what everyone says about being able to close your mouth with a > >chin strap, I’ve never been able to make mine close against the CPAP > >pressure — at least not when I’m asleep! > >I’m pretty sure of two things: > >1.  When you’re really asleep, you have no control over your mouth, > >and it will do whatever it wants to do.  Usually that means relax and > >sag open enough to leak. > When I’m on CPAP (Nasal mask) It takes effort to open mouth at all. > Then it takes a lot of effort to get tongue to move forward out of way > to cause air leak. (though I have awaken to find my mouth open and air > leaking out. But this is rare for me) > I guess it depends on individuals size shape of tongue, back of throat > etc… > >2.  If the air is getting into your nose and out your mouth, it is > >also getting into the back of your mouth so you can breathe without > >apneas.   (This is my opinion after studying the illustrations at my > >doctor’s office of the air passageways in our noses/mouths going to > >our lungs.)  Especially if you have an APAP instead of a CPAP.  The > >APAP will do what it has to do. > >I’ve tried several things, including moldable mouth protectors, but > >nothing has been able to stop my mouth breathing.  (Don’t think it > >happens every night, but I’m not sure.)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 09 May 2004 11:02:24 -0500, Alan Moor…@visi.com wrote: >On Thu, 06 May 2004 20:28:33 -0400, eric pearson ><nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net> wrote: >>If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) >>chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more >>leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of >>physics!) >>And yes, mouth breathing encourages the sleepies since some of the >>airflow/pressure which is supposed to keep your airway open is instead >>rushing out your mouth, thus diminishing the effectiveness of the >>CPAP. >Despite what everyone says about being able to close your mouth with a >chin strap, I’ve never been able to make mine close against the CPAP >pressure — at least not when I’m asleep! >I’m pretty sure of two things: >1.  When you’re really asleep, you have no control over your mouth, >and it will do whatever it wants to do.  Usually that means relax and >sag open enough to leak.

When I’m on CPAP (Nasal mask) It takes effort to open mouth at all. Then it takes a lot of effort to get tongue to move forward out of way to cause air leak. (though I have awaken to find my mouth open and air leaking out. But this is rare for me) I guess it depends on individuals size shape of tongue, back of throat etc… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->2.  If the air is getting into your nose and out your mouth, it is >also getting into the back of your mouth so you can breathe without >apneas.   (This is my opinion after studying the illustrations at my >doctor’s office of the air passageways in our noses/mouths going to >our lungs.)  Especially if you have an APAP instead of a CPAP.  The >APAP will do what it has to do. >I’ve tried several things, including moldable mouth protectors, but >nothing has been able to stop my mouth breathing.  (Don’t think it >happens every night, but I’m not sure.)

Response:

On Thu, 06 May 2004 20:28:33 -0400, eric pearson <nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net> wrote: >If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) >chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more >leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of >physics!) >And yes, mouth breathing encourages the sleepies since some of the >airflow/pressure which is supposed to keep your airway open is instead >rushing out your mouth, thus diminishing the effectiveness of the >CPAP.

Despite what everyone says about being able to close your mouth with a chin strap, I’ve never been able to make mine close against the CPAP pressure — at least not when I’m asleep! I’m pretty sure of two things: 1.  When you’re really asleep, you have no control over your mouth, and it will do whatever it wants to do.  Usually that means relax and sag open enough to leak. 2.  If the air is getting into your nose and out your mouth, it is also getting into the back of your mouth so you can breathe without apneas.   (This is my opinion after studying the illustrations at my doctor’s office of the air passageways in our noses/mouths going to our lungs.)  Especially if you have an APAP instead of a CPAP.  The APAP will do what it has to do. I’ve tried several things, including moldable mouth protectors, but nothing has been able to stop my mouth breathing.  (Don’t think it happens every night, but I’m not sure.)

Response:

We had a rep from sleep net corporation attend our last AWAKE group meeting. She stated they are developing a relatively small and light full face mask. She invited two of our members who need this type of mask to contact the company to serve as beta testers. Something about late fall projected delivery date. As best as I can remember, they were looking at a mask that was sized like a nasal mask but went below the lower lip, with some of the identical innovations as their regular nasal masks (e.g., softest gel on the market, soft wire that allows easy molding and remolding to fit any type of face, etc.). Those who need these type masks might want to keep on eye on this company or contact them for more information. I neither use a full face mask or have any connection with these guys. I was impressed with their apparent commitment to bring the same level of product for a group of people who make up a smaller percentage of the overall OSA market. harlan In article <CNWdnR3pTug-Zgbd4p2…@comcast.com>,  "Darrell" <Boomer1031nos…@comcast.net> wrote: > One word of advice if you do > > get a full face mask though…. make sure you get one with quick release > > clips!!  To me they are the #1 feature (other than fit & comfort of > course!) > > you can have.  It makes life so much easier when you have a nose itch or > > even just the every day on & off of the mask without having to adjust & > > re-adjust the fit makes such a difference. > > Yeah, I know how important quick release clips are.  As often as I (used > to) get up at night to relieve myself.  Fumbling with straps and everything > when I’m half asleep isn’t the most entertaining thing to do.  I’ve been > using the ComfortSelect and I really like it, but the mouth breathing is > causing some real problems.  Does the full face mask extend to your chin or > does it end just below your lips?  I haven’t seen one yet.

– To respond, obviously drop the "nospan"?

Response:

One word of advice if you do > get a full face mask though…. make sure you get one with quick release > clips!!  To me they are the #1 feature (other than fit & comfort of course!) > you can have.  It makes life so much easier when you have a nose itch or > even just the every day on & off of the mask without having to adjust & > re-adjust the fit makes such a difference. > Yeah, I know how important quick release clips are.  As often as I (used

to) get up at night to relieve myself.  Fumbling with straps and everything when I’m half asleep isn’t the most entertaining thing to do.  I’ve been using the ComfortSelect and I really like it, but the mouth breathing is causing some real problems.  Does the full face mask extend to your chin or does it end just below your lips?  I haven’t seen one yet.

Response:

Most of the time I was at 90%.  For a short > time my oxygen levels dropped to 85%

Thats not so hot. Normal Pulse Oximeter values are 97 to 98%.  Anything 90% or less is moderately hypoxic.  Those low values also mean you are retaining CO2 also.  Hypercarbia is also unhealthy.  I would say the machine is not working so hot.  Caviet: If you have advanced COPD and your’e normal levels are in the low 90’s… then not so bad.  Are you on home O2?

Response:

"  Are you on home O2? Not yet.  My Dr seemed to think 90% was really good.  Maybe he said 98%. I’m not sure.  That’s what I get for not writing stuff down. I almost fell asleep stopped at a traffic light on the way home from work today and right now I feel I could take a nap just closing my eyes. Monday when I see the respiratory therapist he might know what my readings were during the oxygen test. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

> If you are comfortable with your mask, try a decent (wide elastic) > chinstrap before the full-face mask. Full-fask masks tend to have more > leak opportunities than nasal masks or pillows (simple matter of > physics!)

I’ve tried chin straps and I really don’t like them.  Too many straps.  Not enough head to accomodate all of them.  I like the mask I’ve been using so if the full face doesn’t work out I’ll go back to it and try to rig up something to keep my mouth closed.  As long as my ins foots the bill, I’m willing to experiment.  My DME benefit is terribly generous, but I haven’t had any claims against it for almost 2 years, when I got my current mask.

Response:

I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

How is this possible, I have a Bipap and when I open my mouth air rushes out of my mouth? <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message

news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

I Use a foam neck brace, it keeps my mouth shut. Also use rhinocort nasal spray this also help because it keeps nose clear Warren <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message

news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

bbreid…@neo.rr.com wrote: >I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on >Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a >mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not >fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping >my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the >morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth >again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Which mask did you try?  The ResMed Ultra Mirage seems to be the full-face favorite around here, it comes in three sizes. Tom – Sick of Spam? Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org

Response:

<bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message

news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

How you had your nose checked.  I thought I was a mouth breather but only because my turbinates were swelling.  I had laser done and that did not work and has rf (radiofrequency) and that has worked. <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message

news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

I had all the surgery done, and this caused a incompetent palate, so air always comes out my mouth. I too could not get a mask that fit exactly right, so this is what I did. 1. I used aquarium silicone to permanently attach the silicone mask to the hard plastic. Doesn’t take much, just run a bead around the ridge and put the soft silicone mask back on, in the normal position. Now you will have no leaks on the mask itself. This was a problem with my mask. 2. Go to a scuba shop and get some silicone gel. This is used to keep scuba masks from leaking around facial hair, such a mustaches. This works well, and wont irritate your skin, as petroleum products do. Jerry "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message

news:T9CI6.38294$Jh5.35495921@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How you had your nose checked.  I thought I was a mouth breather but only > because my turbinates were swelling.  I had laser done and that did not work > and has rf (radiofrequency) and that has worked. > <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message > news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… > > I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

I did use bipap. now use use c-pap. Jerry "JN" <Nob…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:BqZI6.5584$hu.1917215@typhoon.austin.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I had all the surgery done, and this caused a incompetent palate, so air > always comes out my mouth. I too could not get a mask that fit exactly > right, so this is what I did. > 1. I used aquarium silicone to permanently attach the silicone mask to the > hard plastic. Doesn’t take much, just run a bead around the ridge and put > the soft silicone mask back on, in the normal position. Now you will have no > leaks on the mask itself. This was a problem with my mask. > 2. Go to a scuba shop and get some silicone gel. This is used to keep scuba > masks from leaking around facial hair, such a mustaches. This works well, > and wont irritate your skin, as petroleum products do. > Jerry > "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message > news:T9CI6.38294$Jh5.35495921@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com… > > How you had your nose checked.  I thought I was a mouth breather but only > > because my turbinates were swelling.  I had laser done and that did not > work > > and has rf (radiofrequency) and that has worked. > > <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… > > > I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > > > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > > > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > > > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > > > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > > > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > > > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

sounds like the old days , i read where Doctor Sullivan’s first patients used to put the early masks on with silicon Warren "JN" <Nob…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:BqZI6.5584$hu.1917215@typhoon.austin.rr.com… I had all the surgery done, and this caused a incompetent palate, so air always comes out my mouth. I too could not get a mask that fit exactly right, so this is what I did. 1. I used aquarium silicone to permanently attach the silicone mask to the hard plastic. Doesn’t take much, just run a bead around the ridge and put the soft silicone mask back on, in the normal position. Now you will have no leaks on the mask itself. This was a problem with my mask. 2. Go to a scuba shop and get some silicone gel. This is used to keep scuba masks from leaking around facial hair, such a mustaches. This works well, and wont irritate your skin, as petroleum products do. Jerry "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message

news:T9CI6.38294$Jh5.35495921@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How you had your nose checked.  I thought I was a mouth breather but only > because my turbinates were swelling.  I had laser done and that did not work > and has rf (radiofrequency) and that has worked. > <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message > news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… > > I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

still works. Jerry "Warren" <ro…@rocky.tv> wrote in message

news:3af63d39$0$25474$7f31c96c@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> sounds like the old days , i read where Doctor Sullivan’s first patients > used to put the early masks on with silicon > Warren > "JN" <Nob…@nospam.com> wrote in message > news:BqZI6.5584$hu.1917215@typhoon.austin.rr.com… > I had all the surgery done, and this caused a incompetent palate, so air > always comes out my mouth. I too could not get a mask that fit exactly > right, so this is what I did. > 1. I used aquarium silicone to permanently attach the silicone mask to the > hard plastic. Doesn’t take much, just run a bead around the ridge and put > the soft silicone mask back on, in the normal position. Now you will have no > leaks on the mask itself. This was a problem with my mask. > 2. Go to a scuba shop and get some silicone gel. This is used to keep scuba > masks from leaking around facial hair, such a mustaches. This works well, > and wont irritate your skin, as petroleum products do. > Jerry > "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message > news:T9CI6.38294$Jh5.35495921@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com… > > How you had your nose checked.  I thought I was a mouth breather but only > > because my turbinates were swelling.  I had laser done and that did not > work > > and has rf (radiofrequency) and that has worked. > > <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message > > news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… > > > I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > > > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > > > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > > > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > > > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > > > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > > > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

Your not putting enough tape on. Place a small amount just enough to tape a little past the corners of your mouth. Then take a piece about 4" long and tape over that and finally I take a piece about 5" to 6" long and seal the deal. I have yet to wake up with the tape off my mouth since I have doing it this way. In the beginning I was having your problem, but not any more, as a matter of fact I need to peel it off in the shower every morning. Take care! Ron

Response:

How is it possible? Easy. During my first few weeks on CPAP, I caught myself a few times waking to the sound of wind and then realizing the wind was coming out of my mouth. Who knows how long the wind was blowing before I woke up!  The next day and a half I was extremely dehydrated, as the wind blowing in my nose and out my mouth had dried out all my mucous membranes. After discovering the problem, I spent a few nights with a chin strap and then was switched to a full-face mask, which solved the mouth-breathing problem. I’m experimenting again with the nose mask to see whether I can keep my mouth shut without a chin strap now that I’ve become more accustomed to the CPAP after three months. The chin strap I have simply does not stay put, and it’s uncomfortable, too. "Terry L. Craig" <trcra…@qwest.net> wrote in message news:QgvI6.6$3c5.20059@news.uswest.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> How is this possible, I have a Bipap and when I open my mouth air rushes out > of my mouth? > <bbreid…@neo.rr.com> wrote in message > news:v794ftofpiuvab48a6tgdh75p54afaikso@4ax.com… > > I have a problem I am hoping that somebody can help with.  I am on > > Bipap 17/14 settings and they put me on a  nasal mask well I am a > > mouth breather big time I have tried the full face mask but it did not > > fit my face and it was a large the nose area leaked.  So I am taping > > my mouth shut with medical tape at night but when i wake up in the > > morning I have ripped open the tape and breathing through my mouth > > again. Does anybody have any suggestions

Response:

Guys, I tape my mouth shut too, but also 1) wear a chin strap – more pressure against my mouth to keep it shut; 2) munch my lips tightly together before I apply the tape; and 3) use only one brand of tape (Johnson & Johnson in Canada) because I find the other brands get a bit damp or loose their adhesiveness in the night & come off with the obvious results.  I used to need 3 pieces of tape like Ron but now use only a single piece across the whole mouth.  If my mouth gets dry at night & I need some water, I peel back just a bit of tape & insert a straw – saves on the tape’s adhesiveness. Hope some of this is helpful. Donna <rotiko2…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:20073-3AF98173-38@storefull-156.iap.bryant.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Your not putting enough tape on. Place a small amount just enough to > tape a little past the corners of your mouth. Then take a piece about 4" > long and tape over that and finally I take a piece about 5" to 6" long > and seal the deal. I have yet to wake up with the tape off my mouth > since I have doing it this way. In the beginning I was having your > problem, but not any more, as a matter of fact I need to peel it off in > the shower every morning. > Take care! > Ron

Response:

The Johnson & Johnson tape – what kind of tape are you using, e.g. Medical tape, Scotch tape, duct tape  ??? Ian and Donna McCririck wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Guys, I tape my mouth shut too, but also 1) wear a chin strap – more > pressure against my mouth to keep it shut; 2) munch my lips tightly together > before I apply the tape; and 3) use only one brand of tape (Johnson & > Johnson in Canada) because I find the other brands get a bit damp or loose > their adhesiveness in the night & come off with the obvious results.  I used > to need 3 pieces of tape like Ron but now use only a single piece across the > whole mouth.  If my mouth gets dry at night & I need some water, I peel back > just a bit of tape & insert a straw – saves on the tape’s adhesiveness. > Hope some of this is helpful. Donna > <rotiko2…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:20073-3AF98173-38@storefull-156.iap.bryant.webtv.net… > > Your not putting enough tape on. Place a small amount just enough to > > tape a little past the corners of your mouth. Then take a piece about 4" > > long and tape over that and finally I take a piece about 5" to 6" long > > and seal the deal. I have yet to wake up with the tape off my mouth > > since I have doing it this way. In the beginning I was having your > > problem, but not any more, as a matter of fact I need to peel it off in > > the shower every morning. > > Take care! > > Ron

Response:

I just needed you to be there

Question:

Oh yeah…there were signs…especially with this last one…with the others, though, it was so totally surprising…but one of them, I think, had another girl.  He never said it, but I think taht was part of what happened.

I don’t know what to say.  That’s pretty crummy.  I hope you’ve gotten something out of it that will help in the future.  At least to know that they didn’t treat you well and it was them. The last time this happened, there were signs a couple of days before hand, which is when I actually knew it was coming.  Hindsight made me see how he treated people he lost interest in, before it happened with me.

Only "Days"?   Wow, that is harsh!  No wonder you’re frustrated. Losing interest is pretty common though.  I don’t know the cure.  I guess it’s trial and error, or apparently trial, error, trial, error, … until you find a decent person. *sigh* I understand how that is discouraging though. I hope you aren’t finding this thread annoying, but I had one related question I was interested in your feelings about — how comfortable have you felt in these relationships?  Total trust, comfort and openness?  I personally haven’t had that feeling. {{{{Angela}}}} -Kevin

Response:

Is there anything in common with the guys before the relationship ends? I don’t know…I thought they were all sensitive…found out the truth much too late, of course.  There have been three…and a half…guys with whom this has happened.  One wasn’t exactly the same.  The half…was a misunderstanding on my part. I’m sorry you’ve gone through this so many times .

Thanks. Maybe you’re drawn to guys initially for reasons other than what you need to sustain the relationship? I’m not sure what you mean by this. I was just wondering if you saw any signs whatsoever with hindsight I guess.

Oh yeah…there were signs…especially with this last one…with the others, though, it was so totally surprising…but one of them, I think, had another girl.  He never said it, but I think taht was part of what happened. The last time this happened, there were signs a couple of days before hand, which is when I actually knew it was coming.  Hindsight made me see how he treated people he lost interest in, before it happened with me. Just curious what you think.  I wonder some of the same things sometimes. I don’t have an answer.  I don’t know.  In a sense, they were all very much the same, and yet in a sense they had very little in common. Dammit, I want answers!!  Quick, my time is running out

Sorry.

Response:

Is there anything in common with the guys before the relationship ends? I don’t know…I thought they were all sensitive…found out the truth much too late, of course.  There have been three…and a half…guys with whom this has happened.  One wasn’t exactly the same.  The half…was a misunderstanding on my part.

I’m sorry you’ve gone through this so many times . Maybe you’re drawn to guys initially for reasons other than what you need to sustain the relationship? I’m not sure what you mean by this.

I was just wondering if you saw any signs whatsoever with hindsight I guess. Just curious what you think.  I wonder some of the same things sometimes. I don’t have an answer.  I don’t know.  In a sense, they were all very much the same, and yet in a sense they had very little in common.

Dammit, I want answers!!  Quick, my time is running out -Kevin

Response:

Is there anything in common with the guys before the relationship ends?

I don’t know…I thought they were all sensitive…found out the truth much too late, of course.  There have been three…and a half…guys with whom this has happened.  One wasn’t exactly the same.  The half…was a misunderstanding on my part. Maybe you’re drawn to guys initially for reasons other than what you need to sustain the relationship?

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Just curious what you think.  I wonder some of the same things sometimes.

I don’t have an answer.  I don’t know.  In a sense, they were all very much the same, and yet in a sense they had very little in common. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Kevin

Response:

Suddenly…no argument, no hint of a problem…just "Oh by the way.  I was wrong.  I don’t love you.  See ya."  Sometimes, the arguments come later, as the full impact of it all is realized.

Is there anything in common with the guys before the relationship ends? Maybe you’re drawn to guys initially for reasons other than what you need to sustain the relationship? Just curious what you think.  I wonder some of the same things sometimes. -Kevin

Response:

No…not by a long shot.  The beauty of it is, it tends to happen mostly the same way. What way is that?

Suddenly…no argument, no hint of a problem…just "Oh by the way.  I was wrong.  I don’t love you.  See ya."  Sometimes, the arguments come later, as the full impact of it all is realized. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Kevin

Response:

No…not by a long shot.  The beauty of it is, it tends to happen mostly the same way.

What way is that? -Kevin

Response:

Hi again

Hello. Then, with this deep deep need, you met this guy and over time fell in love and believed that at last you had found what you have wanted for so long. You reach the point where it is getting very serious and he dumps you in a very rude way. Yes.  But it wasn’t the first time…let’s make that incredibly clear. This wasn’t the first guy that has dumped you??  No wonder you are so discouraged.

No…not by a long shot.  The beauty of it is, it tends to happen mostly the same way. There will be no other guy.  I’ve learned my lesson.  That’s why I don’t move on.  Besides, I’m not attractive to people.  And anyone I’m attracted to is generally unattainable.  So why bother?  Why set myself up for this again?  No thanks. I understand why you feel this way. Maybe you can make a life of your own without a guy.

No.  No guy equals no marriage, no children, no family…no love…no life. Nothing is any fun without somebody to share it. I still want to see that picture:-)

Nuh uh.

Response:

Hi again – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can easily see the hell that you have been through and the deep deep hurt that you feel. It left a terrible mark upon you and that is understandable. I’m going to speculate a little and it might get you mad at me. It is my guess that all your life you have wanted someone you could trust in and believe in and love and feel secure and safe. That doesn’t make me mad.  I know you’re right. Maybe your needs are stronger than some people would have Yes. or maybe you were terribly deprived in your youth of feeling this kind of love. Yes. Then, with this deep deep need, you met this guy and over time fell in love and believed that at last you had found what you have wanted for so long. You reach the point where it is getting very serious and he dumps you in a very rude way. Yes.  But it wasn’t the first time…let’s make that incredibly clear.

This wasn’t the first guy that has dumped you??  No wonder you are so discouraged. So, where does this leave you?  Depressed, despondent, no hope ever, never going to try again….  I understand that feeling.  What i am wondering is why you haven’t been able to eventually heal enough from this to begin to move on- maybe to another guy (and with a lot of wisdom gained from the last one). There will be no other guy.  I’ve learned my lesson.  That’s why I don’t move on.  Besides, I’m not attractive to people.  And anyone I’m attracted to is generally unattainable.  So why bother?  Why set myself up for this again?  No thanks.

I understand why you feel this way. Maybe you can make a life of your own without a guy. I still want to see that picture:-) Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Invisible- why do you think you can’t move on? I can’t move on because there’s nowhere left to go.  That was it for me…just the end of a repeating pattern.  I won’t let it repeat again. It’s that simple. I know what I’ve said sounds a little harsh- but I wonder why one cannot move on from such things. Stan Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else. You told me that I mattered.  You told me you loved me.  I believed it, coming from you.  I felt important, I felt secure, and I felt loved.  I felt loved.  I wanted to be there when you needed me.  I didn’t want to disappoint you.  I hid, sometimes, for my own reasons, but I knew that whatever I said or did, you would be there to back me up.  You would use your strength to bring me out of the darkness.  You would be there… I need you, now, and that’s a difficult thing to admit…after you used me and threw me away, citing some imagined fault as a reason.  But you taught me a valuable lesson that I will carry with me for as long as I live. You showed me, for once and for all, that nothing is permanent, that nothing lasts.  You taught me not to trust, not to let anyone too close, unless I want to regret all I’ve said and done for the rest of my life.  Even though you didn’t tell me definitely what made you feel the way you did, I knew…I always know.  It wasn’t meds, it wasn’t family, it wasn’t distance.  It was me.  Something in the way I looked, the way I acted, the way I was.  And that’s ok, that you felt that way.  I know you were right.  I told you that before. You were the one who held me up…no matter what good things other people said, I only believed them coming from you.  But then you showed me the truth…that words mean nothing…they just become convenient ways to enact people’s hidden agendas, whatever they might be.  My trust in people is gone, and while I don’t blame you entirely for that, you helped it a little. Yes, I need you…but I also recognize that your words and actions hold a certain responsibility for the way I feel now.  I think by now it’s obvious that this feeling’s not going to go away.  I had it before I met you, and you sealed it as a permanent part of me. I loved you, and I had that love thrown back in my face.  In trying to spare me, you gave me the most brutal breakup ever.  I’m not naive enough to believe that you’re the cause of all my problems…you just brought them to my full attention, and made me realize things that I had forgotten. I’m thinking about you tonight, as I thought about you when it first happened, as I thought about you in the first few months, whenever the 23rd rolled around.  I’m thinking about you as I should have thought about you last week…I always was slow. You don’t care, and I know that…and that’s fine.  This is purely for me…selfish to the end, as you well know.  It’s my feeble attempt to reconcile myself to the lessons that were taught…I have to do that, every now and again, lest I forget and allow myself to open up again. I need you…you’re not there.  It’s nothing new, but for some reason this is the only time it really hurts. Angela

Response:

I can easily see the hell that you have been through and the deep deep hurt that you feel. It left a terrible mark upon you and that is understandable. I’m going to speculate a little and it might get you mad at me. It is my guess that all your life you have wanted someone you could trust in and believe in and love and feel secure and safe.

That doesn’t make me mad.  I know you’re right. Maybe your needs are stronger than some people would have

Yes. or maybe you were terribly deprived in your youth of feeling this kind of love.

Yes. Then, with this deep deep need, you met this guy and over time fell in love and believed that at last you had found what you have wanted for so long. You reach the point where it is getting very serious and he dumps you in a very rude way.

Yes.  But it wasn’t the first time…let’s make that incredibly clear. So, where does this leave you?  Depressed, despondent, no hope ever, never going to try again….  I understand that feeling.  What i am wondering is why you haven’t been able to eventually heal enough from this to begin to move on- maybe to another guy (and with a lot of wisdom gained from the last one).

There will be no other guy.  I’ve learned my lesson.  That’s why I don’t move on.  Besides, I’m not attractive to people.  And anyone I’m attracted to is generally unattainable.  So why bother?  Why set myself up for this again?  No thanks. Invisible- why do you think you can’t move on?

I can’t move on because there’s nowhere left to go.  That was it for me…just the end of a repeating pattern.  I won’t let it repeat again. It’s that simple. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know what I’ve said sounds a little harsh- but I wonder why one cannot move on from such things. Stan Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else. You told me that I mattered.  You told me you loved me.  I believed it, coming from you.  I felt important, I felt secure, and I felt loved.  I felt loved.  I wanted to be there when you needed me.  I didn’t want to disappoint you.  I hid, sometimes, for my own reasons, but I knew that whatever I said or did, you would be there to back me up.  You would use your strength to bring me out of the darkness.  You would be there… I need you, now, and that’s a difficult thing to admit…after you used me and threw me away, citing some imagined fault as a reason.  But you taught me a valuable lesson that I will carry with me for as long as I live. You showed me, for once and for all, that nothing is permanent, that nothing lasts.  You taught me not to trust, not to let anyone too close, unless I want to regret all I’ve said and done for the rest of my life.  Even though you didn’t tell me definitely what made you feel the way you did, I knew…I always know.  It wasn’t meds, it wasn’t family, it wasn’t distance.  It was me.  Something in the way I looked, the way I acted, the way I was.  And that’s ok, that you felt that way.  I know you were right.  I told you that before. You were the one who held me up…no matter what good things other people said, I only believed them coming from you.  But then you showed me the truth…that words mean nothing…they just become convenient ways to enact people’s hidden agendas, whatever they might be.  My trust in people is gone, and while I don’t blame you entirely for that, you helped it a little. Yes, I need you…but I also recognize that your words and actions hold a certain responsibility for the way I feel now.  I think by now it’s obvious that this feeling’s not going to go away.  I had it before I met you, and you sealed it as a permanent part of me. I loved you, and I had that love thrown back in my face.  In trying to spare me, you gave me the most brutal breakup ever.  I’m not naive enough to believe that you’re the cause of all my problems…you just brought them to my full attention, and made me realize things that I had forgotten. I’m thinking about you tonight, as I thought about you when it first happened, as I thought about you in the first few months, whenever the 23rd rolled around.  I’m thinking about you as I should have thought about you last week…I always was slow. You don’t care, and I know that…and that’s fine.  This is purely for me…selfish to the end, as you well know.  It’s my feeble attempt to reconcile myself to the lessons that were taught…I have to do that, every now and again, lest I forget and allow myself to open up again. I need you…you’re not there.  It’s nothing new, but for some reason this is the only time it really hurts. Angela

Response:

I can easily see the hell that you have been through and the deep deep hurt that you feel. It left a terrible mark upon you and that is understandable. I’m going to speculate a little and it might get you mad at me. It is my guess that all your life you have wanted someone you could trust in and believe in and love and feel secure and safe. Maybe your needs are stronger than some people would have or maybe you were terribly deprived in your youth of feeling this kind of love. Then, with this deep deep need, you met this guy and over time fell in love and believed that at last you had found what you have wanted for so long. You reach the point where it is getting very serious and he dumps you in a very rude way. So, where does this leave you?  Depressed, despondent, no hope ever, never going to try again….  I understand that feeling.  What i am wondering is why you haven’t been able to eventually heal enough from this to begin to move on- maybe to another guy (and with a lot of wisdom gained from the last one). Invisible- why do you think you can’t move on? I know what I’ve said sounds a little harsh- but I wonder why one cannot move on from such things. Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else. You told me that I mattered.  You told me you loved me.  I believed it, coming from you.  I felt important, I felt secure, and I felt loved.  I felt loved.  I wanted to be there when you needed me.  I didn’t want to disappoint you.  I hid, sometimes, for my own reasons, but I knew that whatever I said or did, you would be there to back me up.  You would use your strength to bring me out of the darkness.  You would be there… I need you, now, and that’s a difficult thing to admit…after you used me and threw me away, citing some imagined fault as a reason.  But you taught me a valuable lesson that I will carry with me for as long as I live.  You showed me, for once and for all, that nothing is permanent, that nothing lasts.  You taught me not to trust, not to let anyone too close, unless I want to regret all I’ve said and done for the rest of my life.  Even though you didn’t tell me definitely what made you feel the way you did, I knew…I always know.  It wasn’t meds, it wasn’t family, it wasn’t distance.  It was me.  Something in the way I looked, the way I acted, the way I was.  And that’s ok, that you felt that way.  I know you were right.  I told you that before. You were the one who held me up…no matter what good things other people said, I only believed them coming from you.  But then you showed me the truth…that words mean nothing…they just become convenient ways to enact people’s hidden agendas, whatever they might be.  My trust in people is gone, and while I don’t blame you entirely for that, you helped it a little. Yes, I need you…but I also recognize that your words and actions hold a certain responsibility for the way I feel now.  I think by now it’s obvious that this feeling’s not going to go away.  I had it before I met you, and you sealed it as a permanent part of me. I loved you, and I had that love thrown back in my face.  In trying to spare me, you gave me the most brutal breakup ever.  I’m not naive enough to believe that you’re the cause of all my problems…you just brought them to my full attention, and made me realize things that I had forgotten. I’m thinking about you tonight, as I thought about you when it first happened, as I thought about you in the first few months, whenever the 23rd rolled around.  I’m thinking about you as I should have thought about you last week…I always was slow. You don’t care, and I know that…and that’s fine.  This is purely for me…selfish to the end, as you well know.  It’s my feeble attempt to reconcile myself to the lessons that were taught…I have to do that, every now and again, lest I forget and allow myself to open up again. I need you…you’re not there.  It’s nothing new, but for some reason this is the only time it really hurts. Angela

Response:

Thank you.  I hope the self-reflection is a good thing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Invisible: I am sorry that you feel this way. Reading your words and pain reminds me of how I have sometimes treated others. Makes me very reflective of myself. Thank you for sharing that. Best Regards Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else.

Response:

Invisible: I am sorry that you feel this way. Reading your words and pain reminds me of how I have sometimes treated others. Makes me very reflective of myself. Thank you for sharing that. Best Regards – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else.

Response:

Thank you Eric.  It did wreak havoc…and yet it was the best thing to happen to me…it was only the end that hurt me so much. It never really goes away…i’ve posted about it before, tried to get it out…but it never really goes away… I can’t help hoping he’ll see it and respond…and that’s one of the worst parts of being me, right now.  (sorry…I know that’s melodramatic…but it’s the only way I know how to put it right now.)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know this was hard to write, but it is good to get it out. I will say that it is horrible not to be able to trust, to have your trust broken. I’m awfully sorry.  It sounds like this relationship wreaked havoc. ((((((((Angela))))))))))

Response:

I know this was hard to write, but it is good to get it out.   I will say that it is horrible not to be able to trust, to have your trust broken.   I’m awfully sorry.  It sounds like this relationship wreaked havoc. ((((((((Angela)))))))))) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else. You told me that I mattered.  You told me you loved me.  I believed it, coming from you.  I felt important, I felt secure, and I felt loved.  I felt loved.  I wanted to be there when you needed me.  I didn’t want to disappoint you.  I hid, sometimes, for my own reasons, but I knew that whatever I said or did, you would be there to back me up.  You would use your strength to bring me out of the darkness.  You would be there… I need you, now, and that’s a difficult thing to admit…after you used me and threw me away, citing some imagined fault as a reason.  But you taught me a valuable lesson that I will carry with me for as long as I live.  You showed me, for once and for all, that nothing is permanent, that nothing lasts.  You taught me not to trust, not to let anyone too close, unless I want to regret all I’ve said and done for the rest of my life.  Even though you didn’t tell me definitely what made you feel the way you did, I knew…I always know.  It wasn’t meds, it wasn’t family, it wasn’t distance.  It was me.  Something in the way I looked, the way I acted, the way I was.  And that’s ok, that you felt that way.  I know you were right.  I told you that before. You were the one who held me up…no matter what good things other people said, I only believed them coming from you.  But then you showed me the truth…that words mean nothing…they just become convenient ways to enact people’s hidden agendas, whatever they might be.  My trust in people is gone, and while I don’t blame you entirely for that, you helped it a little. Yes, I need you…but I also recognize that your words and actions hold a certain responsibility for the way I feel now.  I think by now it’s obvious that this feeling’s not going to go away.  I had it before I met you, and you sealed it as a permanent part of me. I loved you, and I had that love thrown back in my face.  In trying to spare me, you gave me the most brutal breakup ever.  I’m not naive enough to believe that you’re the cause of all my problems…you just brought them to my full attention, and made me realize things that I had forgotten. I’m thinking about you tonight, as I thought about you when it first happened, as I thought about you in the first few months, whenever the 23rd rolled around.  I’m thinking about you as I should have thought about you last week…I always was slow. You don’t care, and I know that…and that’s fine.  This is purely for me…selfish to the end, as you well know.  It’s my feeble attempt to reconcile myself to the lessons that were taught…I have to do that, every now and again, lest I forget and allow myself to open up again. I need you…you’re not there.  It’s nothing new, but for some reason this is the only time it really hurts. Angela

Eric (Clever sig currently under construction)

Response:

Spoiler…addressed to exboyfriend, gut wrenching (to me, anyway), and who knows what else. You told me that I mattered.  You told me you loved me.  I believed it, coming from you.  I felt important, I felt secure, and I felt loved.  I felt loved.  I wanted to be there when you needed me.  I didn’t want to disappoint you.  I hid, sometimes, for my own reasons, but I knew that whatever I said or did, you would be there to back me up.  You would use your strength to bring me out of the darkness.  You would be there… I need you, now, and that’s a difficult thing to admit…after you used me and threw me away, citing some imagined fault as a reason.  But you taught me a valuable lesson that I will carry with me for as long as I live.  You showed me, for once and for all, that nothing is permanent, that nothing lasts.  You taught me not to trust, not to let anyone too close, unless I want to regret all I’ve said and done for the rest of my life.  Even though you didn’t tell me definitely what made you feel the way you did, I knew…I always know.  It wasn’t meds, it wasn’t family, it wasn’t distance.  It was me.  Something in the way I looked, the way I acted, the way I was.  And that’s ok, that you felt that way.  I know you were right.  I told you that before. You were the one who held me up…no matter what good things other people said, I only believed them coming from you.  But then you showed me the truth…that words mean nothing…they just become convenient ways to enact people’s hidden agendas, whatever they might be.  My trust in people is gone, and while I don’t blame you entirely for that, you helped it a little. Yes, I need you…but I also recognize that your words and actions hold a certain responsibility for the way I feel now.  I think by now it’s obvious that this feeling’s not going to go away.  I had it before I met you, and you sealed it as a permanent part of me. I loved you, and I had that love thrown back in my face.  In trying to spare me, you gave me the most brutal breakup ever.  I’m not naive enough to believe that you’re the cause of all my problems…you just brought them to my full attention, and made me realize things that I had forgotten. I’m thinking about you tonight, as I thought about you when it first happened, as I thought about you in the first few months, whenever the 23rd rolled around.  I’m thinking about you as I should have thought about you last week…I always was slow. You don’t care, and I know that…and that’s fine.  This is purely for me…selfish to the end, as you well know.  It’s my feeble attempt to reconcile myself to the lessons that were taught…I have to do that, every now and again, lest I forget and allow myself to open up again. I need you…you’re not there.  It’s nothing new, but for some reason this is the only time it really hurts. Angela

Response:

I dated someone briefly.  Then I saw someone for a little over 4 years.  Then it died and I went insane(r).  That was about 2 years ago.  Now I’ve readjusted to being single and it’s okay for now while I deal with worsening depression / exhaustion / hypersomnia.  I feel like my hands are full with that.

I’m glad you’re ok being single while you deal with those things…For myself, I can’t help thinking that things would be so much better if I had someone who was willing to take care of me now and then. Selfish, I know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I didn’t mean to imply that you wouldn’t get stomped if you weren’t completely open…but it’s more difficult for people to know how exactly to hurt you, if they don’t know where all your vulnerable points are. Hope this conversation has given you *some* sort of answers, or a way to find them for yourself.  I think I need to sleep.  I’m not feeling well at all. G’night. I appreciated your input.  I started working on this stuff in more detail in therapy yesterday and it sucked.  That’s an understatement – I was extremely uncomfortable and triggered.  I think what I want is somewhat atypical – for example, I need space and I prefer living by myself.  I’m extremely introverted and my therapist is trying to determine what part of my thoughts is from introversion and what is from general difficulties with intimacy.  Fun fun fun.  But it’s a necessary evil.

Ew…something I would NOT want to deal with in therapy…I’m sorry. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I stole this from another post of yours: I never, ever brought up the idea of commitment.  I never ever did anything but take what came…they brought it up…they convinced me…it was never the other way around.  I expected nothing from them for a long time…When I trusted, a few months later it was over.  it would have ended anyway, but that trust…that honesty, that openness…is what makes it so bad. Now _this_ is interesting.  Maybe taking what came was not the best approach for you and what you needed?  I don’t think it’s right for you to expect nothing; you are decent and you deserve to be treated the way you want to.  You can’t know for sure that it would have ended anyway.

Thank you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you very much for your comments. -Kevin

Response:

I just have one question (maybe two). Were all your relationships online ones?

No. Is it possible that all the guys you had relationships with were really not ready for the long term commitment- maybe they were not that mature yet?

I never, ever brought up the idea of commitment.  I never ever did anything but take what came…they brought it up…they convinced me…it was never the other way around.  I expected nothing from them for a long time…When I trusted, a few months later it was over.  it would have ended anyway, but that trust…that honesty, that openness…is what makes it so bad. G’night.  Really going to sleep now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Stan

Response:

I just have one question (maybe two). Were all your relationships online ones? Is it possible that all the guys you had relationships with were really not ready for the long term commitment- maybe they were not that mature yet? Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – What I’ve gotten out of it is definite lack of trust an unwillingness to try again. Well, you have more patience than I do!  I quit after one significant relationship.  Or at least I’m on an extended break. I didn’t mean to fall in love…any of the times it happened…Or rather, to fall as hard as I did.  I never made it to the year mark in any relationship. I was about as trusting, comfortable and open as I could be.  I gave honesty, and could share my feelings and thoughts with these people…but then I felt stupid, of course, because I realized how vulnerable I had become, and, knowing that, knowing all that had gone before, they all turned around and did the exact same thing. Well, damn, you did the best you could do and tried to have the relationship you wanted.  I don’t think you should regret being open. I wish it was easier for me. It’s one of my biggest regrets.  I still feel stupid about it.  I mean, it took so many times to learn. I really think it’s worse to trust totally and then get stomped, than it is to hold back. That’s interesting, because I felt I got stomped anyway, even without complete honesty / openness. I didn’t mean to imply that you wouldn’t get stomped if you weren’t completely open…but it’s more difficult for people to know how exactly to hurt you, if they don’t know where all your vulnerable points are. Hope this conversation has given you *some* sort of answers, or a way to find them for yourself.  I think I need to sleep.  I’m not feeling well at all. G’night.

Response:

I completely relate to what you have said, Nina. A part of us never really gets over the loss completely. But the broken relationships also kind of toughen us a little bit (shame we have to toughen but we do). Thanks for this post. I found it very interesting. Stan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know what I’ve said sounds a little harsh- but I wonder why one cannot move on from such things. I’ll take a shot at this. Because there are some things that go very, very deep and take an incredibly long time to heal.  It’s not a matter of not wanting to move on; it’s just an incredibly slow process. I can only speak for myself, but I went through a really similar thing, and in some ways, I’m still getting over it, years later.  It’s not a matter of not moving on, because I have, to something far better.  But there’s a part of my heart that instinctively reaches out to this one person, that’s never lost the habit… though it lessens with the years, and now it’s down to a dull occasional ache. Why was it so hard, and why did it hurt so much, and why was it so hard to let it go?  It’s because of this part of your post: I’m going to speculate a little and it might get you mad at me. It is my guess that all your life you have wanted someone you could trust in and believe in and love and feel secure and safe. Maybe your needs are stronger than some people would have or maybe you were terribly deprived in your youth of feeling this kind of love. When I finally trusted someone, I did it in a blind and childlike way. I trusted completely and without question.  I believed things that I’d never believed before.  And when that love went away, I couldn’t understand it, didn’t believe it, because my faith and trust was so great.  And it’s very, very hard to get past that.  It takes a LOT of time.  And I was extremely lucky, because there was someone there for me from the beginning, and later someone I could talk to about it who had been through something similar, and finally I really began to get past it, in my heart as well as in my head. But it’s been years, and there’s still a part of me that doesn’t believe it, that something that meant so much vanished, that something that was so important came to nothing.  And I’ve had a lot of time and a lot of support.  There’s something about that unconditional love and trust that stays with you, even if it was, in the end, the cruelest of illusions.  In an odd way, and I’m not sure that I can explain it so that it makes sense, I think it has to do with that leap of childlike trust.  And so in the same way that we never "get over" our childhoods, our relationships with our parents, it is incredibly hard to move past this. But for me, in the end, it was a good thing, because I *did* learn a lot, and I carried it with me, and I didn’t take it as confirmation that the world is untrustworthy, not after a while anyway.  It enabled me to do a lot of work that made other, better things possible.  If I had it to do all over again, I’d skip it, because the joy wasn’t worth the depth of the pain.  But I can’t say that I regret it, and it was the foundation for the better things that it facilitated. Nina

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What I’ve gotten out of it is definite lack of trust an unwillingness to try again. Well, you have more patience than I do!  I quit after one significant relationship.  Or at least I’m on an extended break.

I didn’t mean to fall in love…any of the times it happened…Or rather, to fall as hard as I did.  I never made it to the year mark in any relationship. I was about as trusting, comfortable and open as I could be.  I gave honesty, and could share my feelings and thoughts with these people…but then I felt stupid, of course, because I realized how vulnerable I had become, and, knowing that, knowing all that had gone before, they all turned around and did the exact same thing. Well, damn, you did the best you could do and tried to have the relationship you wanted.  I don’t think you should regret being open. I wish it was easier for me.

It’s one of my biggest regrets.  I still feel stupid about it.  I mean, it took so many times to learn. I really think it’s worse to trust totally and then get stomped, than it is to hold back. That’s interesting, because I felt I got stomped anyway, even without complete honesty / openness.

I didn’t mean to imply that you wouldn’t get stomped if you weren’t completely open…but it’s more difficult for people to know how exactly to hurt you, if they don’t know where all your vulnerable points are. Hope this conversation has given you *some* sort of answers, or a way to find them for yourself.  I think I need to sleep.  I’m not feeling well at all. G’night.

Response:

What I’ve gotten out of it is definite lack of trust an unwillingness to try again.

Well, you have more patience than I do!  I quit after one significant relationship.  Or at least I’m on an extended break. I was about as trusting, comfortable and open as I could be.  I gave honesty, and could share my feelings and thoughts with these people…but then I felt stupid, of course, because I realized how vulnerable I had become, and, knowing that, knowing all that had gone before, they all turned around and did the exact same thing.

Well, damn, you did the best you could do and tried to have the relationship you wanted.  I don’t think you should regret being open. I wish it was easier for me. I really think it’s worse to trust totally and then get stomped, than it is to hold back.

That’s interesting, because I felt I got stomped anyway, even without complete honesty / openness. -Kevin

Response:

Oh yeah…there were signs…especially with this last one…with the others, though, it was so totally surprising…but one of them, I think, had another girl.  He never said it, but I think taht was part of what happened. I don’t know what to say.  That’s pretty crummy.  I hope you’ve gotten something out of it that will help in the future.  At least to know that they didn’t treat you well and it was them.

What I’ve gotten out of it is definite lack of trust an unwillingness to try again. The last time this happened, there were signs a couple of days before hand, which is when I actually knew it was coming.  Hindsight made me see how he treated people he lost interest in, before it happened with me. Only "Days"?   Wow, that is harsh!  No wonder you’re frustrated. Losing interest is pretty common though.  I don’t know the cure.  I guess it’s trial and error, or apparently trial, error, trial, error, … until you find a decent person. *sigh* I understand how that is discouraging though.

Gave up.  It was a sudden loss of interest, this last time around, and all the times before that.  It was…poof…and gone.  Done.  Over.  I’m not letting any more 18 wheelers run me over like that. I hope you aren’t finding this thread annoying, but I had one related question I was interested in your feelings about — how comfortable have you felt in these relationships?  Total trust, comfort and openness?  I personally haven’t had that feeling.

I was about as trusting, comfortable and open as I could be.  I gave honesty, and could share my feelings and thoughts with these people…but then I felt stupid, of course, because I realized how vulnerable I had become, and, knowing that, knowing all that had gone before, they all turned around and did the exact same thing. I really think it’s worse to trust totally and then get stomped, than it is to hold back. {{{{Angela}}}}

thanks. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – -Kevin

Response:

Major Depression in Individuals With a History of Childhood Physical or Sexual Abuse: Relationship to Neurovegetative Features, Mania, and Gender 1/4/01

Question:

  "<- flight ofthephoenix -" <aka FloP Got that

SNIP AC

Yep.  That’s why you can’t see your kid, abuser. -G – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/12/1746 Am J Psychiatry 155:1746-1752, December 1998

Major Depression in Individuals With a History of Childhood Physical or Sexual Abuse: Relationship to Neurovegetative Features, Mania, and Gender 1/4/01

Question:

Got that mental defectives? Unitarians? AC ================== LyndaNP <Lynd…@bigfoot.com> wrote in message

news:1empg9b.rx92dy13rbuyoN%LyndaNP@bigfoot.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From: > http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/12/1746 > Am J Psychiatry 155:1746-1752, December 1998 >

Major Depression in Individuals With a History of Childhood Physical or Sexual Abuse: Relationship to Neurovegetative Features, Mania, and Gender 1/4/01

Question:

Got that mental defectives? Unitarians? AC

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/155/12/1746 Am J Psychiatry 155:1746-1752, December 1998

Life sucks

Question:

I called the pharmacy and they said that the only difference is that I usually get the generic drug and this time I did not

Take them back to the pharmacy in person.  Tell them you want EXACTLY what you’ve had before.  They may think you are wacky since everyone seems to think that the generic and name brands are always the same.  But who cares?  If the other ones made you feel better then that’s what you need.  Throw such a tantrum that they just give you the drugs just to get you to leave.   You don’t have to get loud.  I find that repeatedly saying "That is not acceptable" in a calm tone of voice is more intimidating than yelling. Hang in there. Holly

Response:

I have been taking the same regiment of medications for about a year(450mg Wellbutrin, 6mg trilafon, 37.5mg cylert) and feel generally ok. Except that in this months batch the cylert looked different and symptoms began to return as if I was not taking cylert(I take cylert for hypersomnia). I called the pharmacy and they said that the only difference is that I usually get the generic drug and this time I did not. I slept 18 hours today and constantly feel tired, which would not be happening if I was taking cylert. I am going to try taking two tommorow but I doubt that will help. The quality of my life is seriously affected by the efficacy of these drugs. If they do not work I am screwed. I am pretty much screwed even when they are working though not as bad. Also the damn phone company didn’t connect my DSL Line and they said it wont be hooked up for three more weeks!!!! Even though I have been waiting several months to get it connected those morons keep screwing things up. Basically, If I do not get this cylert thing cleared up, I may as well go practice living under a bridge as that is where I am going to end up someday.

Response:

Things do improve.  Honestly.

Maybe after death. Be gentle to yourself. whiskery Hugs {{{{{Marty}}}}}

Thanks.

Response:

thusly: Wherever I go, there are only hostile idiots. If I could get into a better environment, perhaps my chances would be better. If you could teach yourself to see people as something other than hostile idiots, perhaps your chances would be better.

When people act in a hostile manner, for no apparent reason, I feel justified in seeing them as hostile idiots. Not everybody is a hostile idiot, but there are far too many of them around here. Sure, I could try to be friendly towards unfriendly people, but is it worth the effort? Will it change their attitudes? I don’t think so.

Response:

snip Even with the meds it’s difficult to cope with this kind of "life". I often feel like I’m close to another nervous breakdown.

Things do improve.  Honestly. Be gentle to yourself. whiskery Hugs {{{{{Marty}}}}} — —  Whiskers

Response:

Nobody likes me except my relatives. I’m tired of living alone, completely isolated. There seems to be nothing I can do to get out of the trap I’m in. Even going to the grocery store or driving to work still makes me anxious, despite the meds. When I manage to overcome my fear and try to start a conversation with a stranger, I don’t know what to say. "Hello" or "hi" I know, but then what do I say? Usually, other people don’t seem to want to talk to me anyway. They take off as soon as they can when I start to talk. I wonder if I smell really bad? At work, my social incompetence forces me to work harder and better than most, but I still never get the recognition given to those of lesser ability and productivity who are socially proficient. Wherever I go, there are only hostile idiots. If I could get into a better environment, perhaps my chances would be better. It would be nice to have at least a few friends. I have none, and never had any. Even with the meds it’s difficult to cope with this kind of "life". I often feel like I’m close to another nervous breakdown.

Response:

        For those that care life sucks,I tried to slash my wrists ,what a loser chose a steak knife wont cut shit! Dave.

((((((Dave))))))) Now why did you go and do that?  What’s wrong?  How can I help? Veronica — REMOVETHIS from my email address before responding.  Thanks.

Response:

when you I not even figure out how to re:  posts right . BratFaceA age 11 — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:

Response:

        For those that care life sucks,I tried to slash my wrists ,what a loser chose a steak knife wont cut shit! Dave.

Response:

WELL IT’S 1147 HOPEFULLY I’ll be dead by tommorrow bbbbye. Daveee,

Response:

Feeling sick upon waking?

Question:

Hi, I have many sleep problems — hypersomnia, phase-advanced sleep pattern, etc. — but one of my worst problems is that upon awakening I feel very sick, like I have a hangover, and it can last up to 2 hours. It doesn’t matter how much sleep I get. I also have incredible difficulty waking up. I’ve had this most of my life. Does anyone know of any med that has relieved this type of hangover feeling? thanks, anita

Response:

nee…@erols.com wrote: > Hi, > I have many sleep problems — hypersomnia, phase-advanced sleep pattern, > etc. — but one of my worst problems is that upon awakening I feel very > sick, like I have a hangover, and it can last up to 2 hours. It doesn’t > matter how much sleep I get. I also have incredible difficulty waking > up. I’ve had this most of my life. Does anyone know of any med that has > relieved this type of hangover feeling? > thanks, > anita

Anita…. have you been checked for Sleep Apnea?  This is one of the classic symtoms. Regards, Lee — Lee Babcock Toronto in the GWN

Response: