AutoSet-T Did Not Detect Breath Holding
Question:
"bk" <bruce_k…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ccea194.1639978@News.CIS.DFN.DE… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I tried this as an experiment to see if my AutoSet-T is working the > way it is supposed to. > I set the "settling time" to 1 minute. That means, after one minute of > minimum pressure, the machine will then increase pressure based on > need. > Then, after one minute of breathing (actually gave it a minute and a > half just to be sure) I held my breath, thinking that the machine > would then increase the pressure in response. It did not. Rather, it > held the pressure constant at 6.5, which is my minimum setting. I held > my breath for a full 30 seconds, but still no response. > Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold > your breath? > (By the way, I "faked" a snore, and the pressure increased immediately > increased to around 9 and stayed there) > Bruce
Assuming that you have read the manual and understand the machine, I would say "it’s broke" if I used very bad grammar! ;-} When I attempted to use an a *PAP last, it was the Resmed Autoset-t and as I am actually recorded in sleep studies as holding my breath over 5.5 minutes per event, I woke up to find my mask sitting, on one side, ever so minutely off my face, maximum pressure being given out by the machine. What woke me was the trumpet sound the mask was making. So, as far as I am concerned, an autoset ramps up pressure at the desired setting time and that is that. I would be contacting the company you got it from, explaining that and seeing if it needs repair or whether there is something you just misunderstood that may cure the problem. Regards, Greg.
Response:
G’day, From what I have heard, the Autoset T looks at the pattern of airflow, such as a snore or hypopnea/apnea. If you hold your breath, you just stop the flow. A snore has a different pattern of obstruction, which the machine will respond to (as you found). I usually hold my breath for a moment when I turn off the machine, and then remove the mask. It is a quieter process for my wife, than if I just let the air escape for a few moments before it stops. There is some information about how the autopap machines work on the forums at www.sleepnet.com. Search on auto, or Perry (the gentleman who investigated quite thoroughly). Regards, Geoff
Response:
<grn_at…@hot.mail.com> wrote in message
news:3ccf25e8_4@news1.prserv.net… > G’day, > From what I have heard, the Autoset T looks at the pattern of airflow, > such as a snore or hypopnea/apnea. If you hold your breath, you just stop > the flow. A snore has a different pattern of obstruction, which the > machine will respond to (as you found).
When I tried it, being a curious type, I had the mask on while awake and held my breath. Within about 10-20 seconds, it started building the pressure up. I started breathing again and it quickly went down. > I usually hold my breath for a moment when I turn off the machine, and > then remove the mask. It is a quieter process for my wife, than if I just > let the air escape for a few moments before it stops.
What about lifting the mask? I dont recall it ever being noisy when I just removed it…. Regards, Greg.
Response:
On Thu, 2 May 2002 08:17:46 +1000, "gregh" <s…@abuse.someone.else> wrote: ><grn_at…@hot.mail.com> wrote in message >news:3ccf25e8_4@news1.prserv.net… >> G’day, >> From what I have heard, the Autoset T looks at the pattern of airflow, >> such as a snore or hypopnea/apnea. If you hold your breath, you just stop >> the flow. A snore has a different pattern of obstruction, which the >> machine will respond to (as you found). >When I tried it, being a curious type, I had the mask on while awake and >held my breath. Within about 10-20 seconds, it started building the pressure >up. I started breathing again and it quickly went down.
Ah..well, if it builds up pressure when Greg holds his breath, (but does not when I try the test) then perhaps it is broken after all! By the way, I finally got my modem cable and have used the AutoScan software. See separate append. Bruce
Response:
"bk" <bruce_k…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3cd15974.3386229@News.CIS.DFN.DE… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Thu, 2 May 2002 08:17:46 +1000, "gregh" <s…@abuse.someone.else> > wrote: > ><grn_at…@hot.mail.com> wrote in message > >news:3ccf25e8_4@news1.prserv.net… > >> G’day, > >> From what I have heard, the Autoset T looks at the pattern of airflow, > >> such as a snore or hypopnea/apnea. If you hold your breath, you just stop > >> the flow. A snore has a different pattern of obstruction, which the > >> machine will respond to (as you found). > >When I tried it, being a curious type, I had the mask on while awake and > >held my breath. Within about 10-20 seconds, it started building the pressure > >up. I started breathing again and it quickly went down. > Ah..well, if it builds up pressure when Greg holds his breath, (but > does not when I try the test) then perhaps it is broken after all!
It happens to eb the point of an autoset-t that if it senses a sleeper not breathing, it starts ramping pressure up. That is it’s reason for being! If yours doesnt do that and you arent complaining, then could you throw some money my way and not down the drain? > By the way, I finally got my modem cable and have used the AutoScan > software. See separate append.
WHat append? Regards, Greg.
Response:
> Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold > your breath?
As I understand it, it should not try to force you to breath. It responds to your breathing in and boosts the air pressure in your airways. Basically how it reponds is determined by three (?) different pressure patterns. If you hold your breath, you are choosing not to breath, so the machine doesn’t try to force you. So when you die, it will not pump you up like a balloon {:-).
Response:
When you hold your breath, you are simulating a central apnea, rather than an obstructive one, as you are not even trying to breath. The auto-paps are designed to NOT raise pressure during central apneas, but only during obstructive ones. "Terry Collins" <goo…@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:5f3efd2d.0205030324.6302797b@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold > > your breath? > As I understand it, it should not try to force you to breath. It > responds to your breathing in and boosts the air pressure in your > airways. > Basically how it reponds is determined by three (?) different pressure > patterns. > If you hold your breath, you are choosing not to breath, so the > machine doesn’t try to force you. So when you die, it will not pump > you up like a balloon {:-).
Response:
On Sun, 05 May 2002 06:23:25 GMT, "Tim" <nos…@net.com> wrote: >When you hold your breath, you are simulating a central apnea, rather than >an obstructive one, as you are not even trying to breath.
You have to understand the algorithm they use in the particular machine to determine how it finds an apneic event. Usually, that can be determined by looking on the bottom of the machine for the patent numbers, going to the USPTO site, and reading the patents. If the machine senses snoring as its trigger, breath-holding won’t do diddly squat. Some of the other algorithms used look at the slope of the inspiratory curve. — Visit Charlie’s Sneaker Pages: http://sneakers.pair.com/
Response:
"Terry Collins" <goo…@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:5f3efd2d.0205030324.6302797b@posting.google.com… > > Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold > > your breath? > As I understand it, it should not try to force you to breath. It > responds to your breathing in and boosts the air pressure in your > airways.
That is probably a basis for a discussion on semantics. ;-} IMHO, if the machine responds to you not breathing and makes you breathe even in the manner you describe, that’s forcing you to breathe. ;-} > Basically how it reponds is determined by three (?) different pressure > patterns. > If you hold your breath, you are choosing not to breath, so the > machine doesn’t try to force you. So when you die, it will not pump > you up like a balloon {:-).
I don’t think you are correct when you say you are choosing not to breathe. I don’t choose not to breathe during apnea events which also include when wind is blowing in my face. I don’t WANT to do that but I do it anyway. Regards, Greg.
Response:
"Tim" <nos…@net.com> wrote in message
news:xd4B8.63$b21.21437776@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com… > When you hold your breath, you are simulating a central apnea, rather than > an obstructive one, as you are not even trying to breath. The auto-paps are > designed to NOT raise pressure during central apneas, but only during > obstructive ones.
How could it possibly tell the difference given that central apneas are a thing in the brain (so to speak, don’t cane me for being general) and not an obstructive one? The result either way is that you don’t breathe and thus the machine must force pressure through. An example is my sleeping reflex that when wind blows in my face, I hold my breath. It isn’t actually an apnea event but it serves the same purpose. I woke many times using a Resmed Autoset-t machine where the machine was pushing at full capacity and I was holding my breath. I woke only because of the noise made by the tightly fitting mask actually sitting slightly off my face in one spot as the air pushed out, making a trumpet noise. My event wasn’t central or obstructive in those cases but nevertheless the ramp up was there. Oh and to clear up any possible misunderstanding there, I do actually have events of 5.5 minutes or longer many times a night. Naturally that means the amount of events I have are low because I hold for that much longer. The end result is severe sleep apnea by another route to most people. Regards, Greg.
Response:
Hi Greg, I have a DeVilbiss/Horizon auto-pap and it reports the number of central apneas as well as the number of obstructive apneas each night. I’m not sure how it tells the difference but I’m assuming it can sense pressure differences between the two. With a central apnea, the airway is totally open and offers no resistance to the CPAP air. With the obstructive apnea, there is resistance and there are swings in esophageal pressure (as you try to suck in and out even though the airway is blocked). It must be able to sense this somehow. Also, just to comment on your experience with increased pressure when the mask was slightly off your face, most of these machines can sense a mask leak, and they increase pressure to compensate for the air leakage. This could explain the ramp-up even if no apnea was happening. Regards, Tim "Tim" <nos…@net.com> wrote in message
news:xd4B8.63$b21.21437776@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com… > When you hold your breath, you are simulating a central apnea, rather than > an obstructive one, as you are not even trying to breath. The auto-paps are > designed to NOT raise pressure during central apneas, but only during > obstructive ones.
How could it possibly tell the difference given that central apneas are a thing in the brain (so to speak, don’t cane me for being general) and not an obstructive one? The result either way is that you don’t breathe and thus the machine must force pressure through. An example is my sleeping reflex that when wind blows in my face, I hold my breath. It isn’t actually an apnea event but it serves the same purpose. I woke many times using a Resmed Autoset-t machine where the machine was pushing at full capacity and I was holding my breath. I woke only because of the noise made by the tightly fitting mask actually sitting slightly off my face in one spot as the air pushed out, making a trumpet noise. My event wasn’t central or obstructive in those cases but nevertheless the ramp up was there. Oh and to clear up any possible misunderstanding there, I do actually have events of 5.5 minutes or longer many times a night. Naturally that means the amount of events I have are low because I hold for that much longer. The end result is severe sleep apnea by another route to most people. Regards, Greg.
Response:
"Tim" <nos…@net.com> wrote in message
news:tBoB8.1304$Bl.111201687@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com… > Hi Greg, > I have a DeVilbiss/Horizon auto-pap and it reports the number of central > apneas as well as the number of obstructive apneas each night. I’m not sure > how it tells the difference but I’m assuming it can sense pressure > differences between the two. With a central apnea, the airway is totally
I really dont understand that unless there is some difference in skin electrical conductivity between the two and it measures this. Whether a central event or OSA event, you stop breathing. Got me beat! ;-} > open and offers no resistance to the CPAP air. With the obstructive apnea, > there is resistance and there are swings in esophageal pressure (as you try > to suck in and out even though the airway is blocked). It must be able to > sense this somehow.
Oh OK. I still dont understand but it doesnt really matter. Just enough to know it successfully does that. I dont have central or mixed so it doesnt really affect me especially given that *PAPs dont work in my case. > Also, just to comment on your experience with increased pressure when the > mask was slightly off your face, most of these machines can sense a mask > leak, and they increase pressure to compensate for the air leakage. This > could explain the ramp-up even if no apnea was happening.
It would be registered as an OSA event because I stopped breathing and had my mouth shut which is not normally how my apnea events go. Without a mask on, my mouth is wide open, event occurring or not. Regards, Greg.
Response:
> > As I understand it, it should not try to force you to breath. It > > responds to your breathing in and boosts the air pressure in your > > airways. > That is probably a basis for a discussion on semantics. ;-} IMHO, if the > machine responds to you not breathing and makes you breathe even in the > manner you describe, that’s forcing you to breathe. ;-}
Which it (APAP) should not do. > > If you hold your breath, you are choosing not to breath, so the > > machine doesn’t try to force you. So when you die, it will not pump > > you up like a balloon {:-). > I don’t think you are correct when you say you are choosing not to breathe. > I don’t choose not to breathe during apnea events which also include when > wind is blowing in my face. I don’t WANT to do that but I do it anyway.
You are confusing the physical action of taking a breath (breathing) with the condition of apnea (blockage stopping of air getting into your lungs).
Response:
"Terry Collins" <goo…@woa.com.au> wrote in message
news:5f3efd2d.0205070556.1c64ba5a@posting.google.com… > > > As I understand it, it should not try to force you to breath. It > > > responds to your breathing in and boosts the air pressure in your > > > airways. > > That is probably a basis for a discussion on semantics. ;-} IMHO, if the > > machine responds to you not breathing and makes you breathe even in the > > manner you describe, that’s forcing you to breathe. ;-} > Which it (APAP) should not do.
What’s the use of the machine if that is what it SHOULDNT do. It is MADE to make you start breathing again. Obviously if you have stopped and the machine starts you again, that IS forcing you. Again, semantics. > > > If you hold your breath, you are choosing not to breath, so the > > > machine doesn’t try to force you. So when you die, it will not pump > > > you up like a balloon {:-). > > I don’t think you are correct when you say you are choosing not to breathe. > > I don’t choose not to breathe during apnea events which also include when > > wind is blowing in my face. I don’t WANT to do that but I do it anyway. > You are confusing the physical action of taking a breath (breathing) > with the condition of apnea (blockage stopping of air getting into > your lungs).
Not at all. As I explained, when wind is blowing into my face, I stop breathing. It isn’t a choice nor is it an OSA event. It actually ends up causing the same as an apnea event anyway. What YOU are confusing is the word "choosing". "Choice" is a conscious decision. No-one, in their sleep, chooses not to breathe. OSA/CSA sufferers have that forced on them through whatever it is that makes them stop breathing. Regards, Greg.
Response:
I’ve tried that with my Virtuoso and could not get it to change … may be smarter than we think. But it works like a charm when I sleep. Maybe it works on changes in breathing but not instant stop "bk" <bruce_k…@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ccea194.1639978@News.CIS.DFN.DE… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I tried this as an experiment to see if my AutoSet-T is working the > way it is supposed to. > I set the "settling time" to 1 minute. That means, after one minute of > minimum pressure, the machine will then increase pressure based on > need. > Then, after one minute of breathing (actually gave it a minute and a > half just to be sure) I held my breath, thinking that the machine > would then increase the pressure in response. It did not. Rather, it > held the pressure constant at 6.5, which is my minimum setting. I held > my breath for a full 30 seconds, but still no response. > Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold > your breath? > (By the way, I "faked" a snore, and the pressure increased immediately > increased to around 9 and stayed there) > Bruce
Response:
The AutoPAP’s don’t respond to central apneas (intentionally holding breath probably looks like a central event to the machine). If your apnea is a high percentage of centrals, AutoPAP’s might not work instead needing a BiPAP. "wmilum" <wmi…@cox.net> wrote in message
news:nBhI8.90404$Md6.3032348@news1.east.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve tried that with my Virtuoso and could not get it to change … may be > smarter than we think. But it works like a charm when I sleep. Maybe it > works on changes in breathing but not instant stop > "bk" <bruce_k…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:3ccea194.1639978@News.CIS.DFN.DE… > > I tried this as an experiment to see if my AutoSet-T is working the > > way it is supposed to. > > I set the "settling time" to 1 minute. That means, after one minute of > > minimum pressure, the machine will then increase pressure based on > > need. > > Then, after one minute of breathing (actually gave it a minute and a > > half just to be sure) I held my breath, thinking that the machine > > would then increase the pressure in response. It did not. Rather, it > > held the pressure constant at 6.5, which is my minimum setting. I held > > my breath for a full 30 seconds, but still no response. > > Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold > > your breath? > > (By the way, I "faked" a snore, and the pressure increased immediately > > increased to around 9 and stayed there) > > Bruce
Response:
"wmilum" <wmi…@cox.net> wrote: >I’ve tried that with my Virtuoso and could not get it to change … may be >smarter than we think. But it works like a charm when I sleep. Maybe it >works on changes in breathing but not instant stop
The Virtuoso only responds to snoring, it doesn’t even monitor airflow. But it works quite well if you snore heavily. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"bk" <bruce_k…@hotmail.com> wrote in message >news:3ccea194.1639978@News.CIS.DFN.DE… >> I tried this as an experiment to see if my AutoSet-T is working the >> way it is supposed to. >> I set the "settling time" to 1 minute. That means, after one minute of >> minimum pressure, the machine will then increase pressure based on >> need. >> Then, after one minute of breathing (actually gave it a minute and a >> half just to be sure) I held my breath, thinking that the machine >> would then increase the pressure in response. It did not. Rather, it >> held the pressure constant at 6.5, which is my minimum setting. I held >> my breath for a full 30 seconds, but still no response. >> Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold >> your breath? >> (By the way, I "faked" a snore, and the pressure increased immediately >> increased to around 9 and stayed there) >> Bruce
Response:
I tried this as an experiment to see if my AutoSet-T is working the way it is supposed to. I set the "settling time" to 1 minute. That means, after one minute of minimum pressure, the machine will then increase pressure based on need. Then, after one minute of breathing (actually gave it a minute and a half just to be sure) I held my breath, thinking that the machine would then increase the pressure in response. It did not. Rather, it held the pressure constant at 6.5, which is my minimum setting. I held my breath for a full 30 seconds, but still no response. Am I missing something, or should the machine respond when you hold your breath? (By the way, I "faked" a snore, and the pressure increased immediately increased to around 9 and stayed there) Bruce
