The Two Schools of Advice
Question:
From: "CVB" <cber…@mediaone.net> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mark Green" <mark.gr…@reading.ac.uk> wrote in message > news:88139ee2.0202110723.5f626390@posting.google.com… > > b) The Pig Who Thinks He’s A Warthog needs to be told how to prepare. > > This is one of the most important stages involved and yet it is here > > that the newsgroup is weakest. People in this class altogether either > > get frog advice ("just do it") which is dangerous for them as > > mentioned before, or incomplete advice ("improve your appearance") > > which was probably the goal they were aiming for, not the method of > > attaining it. > Sometimes there really isn’t much more to say other than "just do it". > There is advice here and in that advice are steps to take. In order to go > from step to step, you have to take action. Okay, let’s say the advice is > "improve your appearance". It’s generally good advice, but no one can tell > you exactly how to do that. We don’t know what you look like or what your > social environment is. There’s some advice you have to take and simply > figure out for yourself. If you don’t know how to improve your appearance, > you have to figure that out. Also, appearance is such a different thing for > every person. People are attracted to different things, people look good in > different things, etc…
That’s exaggerated. As you’ve heard, there are physically characteristics that are considered universally attractive, proportions and ratio that almost everyone likes, and so on. Even clothes aren’t as complicated a matter as people make it out to be, for socially ‘acceptable’ styles are fairly well defined. Of course, it isn’t always possible to improve problem areas (such as lack of stature), but in cases where it is, the remedies may not be easy, but they’re usually quite simple (braces, weightlifting, dieting, and so on). Hence, I take issue with the idea that this advice is as bad as the other school of advice. Now, the "frog" advice is bad, especially when it’s given in a rather hostile manner. For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot." A telling quote from him: "I wish I had something more concrete to tell you." Well, it’s hard to give helpful advice to an individual about such a broad set that includes social conventions and conversational skills. As I was saying, looks are a simpler matter. While some weaknesses in other areas can show (or be shown) on a newsgroup, shortcomings in appearance (excluding those in body language) can be quite simply demonstrated via pictures or, somewhat less effectively, verbal descriptions that include measurements or other specifics. Of course, some people may not want to be open about their weaknesses (and this appears to apply to you, Mark) and it’s painful to admit them to oneself, but those are separate issues. Moreover, let’s say you disagree with the self-appointed expert on how good one needs to look. Well, even partial improvements in appearance usually bring positive social results; thus, the letdown affect that can happen with the "Just do it" advice rarely happens with my advice. Lastly, considering how much of communication is non-verbal, it’s pretty obvious to me that correcting one’s appearance (assuming there are serious deficiencies) is a step without which addressing the other, more complex issues will prove fairly useless.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Real Ketchup wrote: > wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> writes: > > Real Ketchup wrote: > > > Explaining why someone is incorrect, when they are incorrect, is > > > not "punishment". Do you advocate a social policy where nobody > > > corrects anybody, or any correction is a personal insult? > > No, I am talking about that game. If you ask me something then > > insult me, you are stupid to think I will enjoy it and won’t like > > you. > But it’s not an insult to merely correct someone! > > > A society of yes-men, where nothing would get done. > > People who play that game do it so they can feel smarter than the > > other person. Which is what they are doing. Is this why you think > > it is poisoning the well, as you don’t want the game pointed out to > > other people. > It’s poisoning the well to say that anybody who refutes advice is > playing a game.
But if you are playing that game, then saying poisoning the well is another game. > > > Now I realize there was nothing to gain from having her understand > > > that her advice was worthless (other than, perhaps, the remote > > > possibility that she would no longer give it to other people). > > > But I was certainly not "punishing" her and I was not being > > > impolite. Frankly it was rude of _her_ to continue to maintain > > > that she had useful advice for me when clearly she did not. > > Obviously you are so smart and know everything. > Where the hell did that come from?
Cause you have an aswer for everything. My time is too valuable. I don’t have time for debate, but I am willing to help those who are very serious about helping themselves.
Response:
wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> wrote in message <news:3C6C561C.F95C5556@gomonarch.com>… > No. But you can be polite and say thanks then shutup without comment on > that persons advice. Afterall, you are the one asking for help. Do you > have a problem with doing that?
I agree. If someone gives me advice that I don’t think will help, I usually say something non-committal like "I’ll keep that in mind." If it just isn’t to the point, I’ll say something like, "Well, normally I’d do that, but you see, the problem is…" and go on to explain it. When you ask advice, you’re asking a hell of a lot. You’re essentially asking someone to be inside your brain and know everything that’s going on but still bring in ideas from outside your brain. That’s a big burden. The least one can do to someone who is going through this effort is to cut them some slack.
Response:
wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> writes: > Real Ketchup wrote: > > Explaining why someone is incorrect, when they are incorrect, is > > not "punishment". Do you advocate a social policy where nobody > > corrects anybody, or any correction is a personal insult? > No, I am talking about that game. If you ask me something then > insult me, you are stupid to think I will enjoy it and won’t like > you.
But it’s not an insult to merely correct someone! > > A society of yes-men, where nothing would get done. > People who play that game do it so they can feel smarter than the > other person. Which is what they are doing. Is this why you think > it is poisoning the well, as you don’t want the game pointed out to > other people.
It’s poisoning the well to say that anybody who refutes advice is playing a game. > > Now I realize there was nothing to gain from having her understand > > that her advice was worthless (other than, perhaps, the remote > > possibility that she would no longer give it to other people). > > But I was certainly not "punishing" her and I was not being > > impolite. Frankly it was rude of _her_ to continue to maintain > > that she had useful advice for me when clearly she did not. > Obviously you are so smart and know everything.
Where the hell did that come from? — The turtle has toppled.
Response:
wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> writes: > Real Ketchup wrote: > > I have also realized after the fact I should have done this, but > > rather than try to convince someone his advice is bad, it’s likely > > better just to humor him and leave. > It isn’t a matter of humoring him. It is polite social behavior.
[...] > If you ask for advice, and someone gives it, then you slam his > advice, you are telling him that you are not worth his time to > interact with. You are saying, if you interact with me, you better > tell me what I want to hear or I will punish you.
Explaining why someone is incorrect, when they are incorrect, is not "punishment". Do you advocate a social policy where nobody corrects anybody, or any correction is a personal insult? A society of yes-men, where nothing would get done. > How can someone who might claim they want to make friends expect to > make friends with such behavior?
Maybe said someone is not trying to make friends; maybe he’s looking to accomplish some task. For example, I called up a government organization a few weeks ago asking for some information, and the woman on the phone told me it wasn’t available, perhaps I should try calling X or Y. I mentioned that I had already called X and Y, and she said once again that she didn’t have that information — but X or Y might. I said, I understand you don’t have it — I’m not asking you to give it to me anymore — but I happen to know neither X nor Y do either, because I already called them. (I was just trying to clarify this fact, because obviously she missed it). But then, AGAIN, she said she was very sorry, but she just doesn’t know, please try X or Y! So I thanked her and hung up. Now I realize there was nothing to gain from having her understand that her advice was worthless (other than, perhaps, the remote possibility that she would no longer give it to other people). But I was certainly not "punishing" her and I was not being impolite. Frankly it was rude of _her_ to continue to maintain that she had useful advice for me when clearly she did not. It’s reminiscent of "HTH, HAND". — The turtle has toppled.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Real Ketchup wrote: > wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> writes: > > Real Ketchup wrote: > > > I have also realized after the fact I should have done this, but > > > rather than try to convince someone his advice is bad, it’s likely > > > better just to humor him and leave. > > It isn’t a matter of humoring him. It is polite social behavior. > [...] > > If you ask for advice, and someone gives it, then you slam his > > advice, you are telling him that you are not worth his time to > > interact with. You are saying, if you interact with me, you better > > tell me what I want to hear or I will punish you. > Explaining why someone is incorrect, when they are incorrect, is not > "punishment". Do you advocate a social policy where nobody corrects > anybody, or any correction is a personal insult?
No, I am talking about that game. If you ask me something then insult me, you are stupid to think I will enjoy it and won’t like you. > A society of > yes-men, where nothing would get done.
People who play that game do it so they can feel smarter than the other person. Which is what they are doing. Is this why you think it is poisoning the well, as you don’t want the game pointed out to other people. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > How can someone who might claim they want to make friends expect to > > make friends with such behavior? > Maybe said someone is not trying to make friends; maybe he’s looking > to accomplish some task. For example, I called up a government > organization a few weeks ago asking for some information, and the > woman on the phone told me it wasn’t available, perhaps I should try > calling X or Y. I mentioned that I had already called X and Y, and > she said once again that she didn’t have that information — but X or > Y might. I said, I understand you don’t have it — I’m not asking you > to give it to me anymore — but I happen to know neither X nor Y do > either, because I already called them. (I was just trying to clarify > this fact, because obviously she missed it). But then, AGAIN, she > said she was very sorry, but she just doesn’t know, please try X or Y! > So I thanked her and hung up.
So what did you hope to gain from this line of communication? Did you think she would pull the information out of her butt? > Now I realize there was nothing to gain from having her understand > that her advice was worthless (other than, perhaps, the remote > possibility that she would no longer give it to other people). But I > was certainly not "punishing" her and I was not being impolite. > Frankly it was rude of _her_ to continue to maintain that she had > useful advice for me when clearly she did not.
Obviously you are so smart and know everything.
Response:
> > "naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > [pulls out a surprise from his sleeve] > If you know what personality type you want to attract, you can usually > know what will physically attract most people of that type. > Reasonably mature INFP females, for instance, generally like their men
Yeah, the old M-B shit. It has merit, but I could care less about it these days. Too much overanalysis. Also opens up a whole new bag of beans with biases and such. This coming from an INTJ (me). Actually, I’m borderline NTJ. I falter between T and F, and the NJ are like one point away from the SP. > That is incorrect. All your counter-examples were full of holes. > Read about how ‘love’ works, and you’ll see that I’m correct.
I don’t really care. I was just making minor examples. I know there is scientific evidence and all that stuff that theorizes and proves that attractive people have more luck and all that. But I don’t care. I know that lots of women are superficial and are attracted to certain types of things. Big effing deal. The point I was trying to make was, and I’ll say it again, you never know what will attract women, and you never know what might attract the right woman for you. The girl I’m into now is absolutely awesome, but she says she would rather I have long hair and doesn’t care if I dress neat or messy. Well I cut my long hair off years ago and started dressing neat in an attempt to attract women, but here I am with this girl! You just never know. So I say to people, work on your shyness and be strong and confident and have a positive attitude and you will attract tons and tons more women to you than if you just tried certain looks.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -step…@nomail.msu.edu wrote in message <news:a4h7bs$1070$1@msunews.cl.msu.edu>… > Ollie B <ol…@wafflers.com> wrote: > : On 13 Feb 2002 20:59:30 -0800, naturallywe…@hotmail.com (naturallyweird) > : wrote: > :> For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do > :> it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot." > : Well, from my experience of trying to "just do it", that advice is as much > : use to me as saying to an insomniac, "Just go to sleep. If you stay awake, > : you’re a negative idiot." > : Ollie > What advice are you actually referring to? To use your example, > there are all sorts of things one can do to try and counter insomnia, > and these are things that you just have to do. Noone can make you > do them, and they are not intrinsically hard, so the ball really > is in your court. > The negative idiot part comes in when people keep insisting that > the advice cannot work even though they have not tried it yet. > Ollie B <ol…@wafflers.com> wrote: > : On 13 Feb 2002 20:59:30 -0800, naturallywe…@hotmail.com (naturallyweird) > : wrote: > :> For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do > :> it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot." > : Well, from my experience of trying to "just do it", that advice is as much > : use to me as saying to an insomniac, "Just go to sleep. If you stay awake, > : you’re a negative idiot." > : Ollie > What advice are you actually referring to? To use your example, > there are all sorts of things one can do to try and counter insomnia, > and these are things that you just have to do. Noone can make you > do them, and they are not intrinsically hard, so the ball really > is in your court. > The negative idiot part comes in when people keep insisting that > the advice cannot work even though they have not tried it yet.
LOL. I’m shocked that you admit this. Stephen, this alone makes you the wrong person to be trying to ‘help’ others. Moreover, I believe you seek out this kind of conflict, by continually giving advice to the "game-players." Maybe, it’s a good excuse for you to vent your spleen, but it takes away what little credibility you have.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > > From: "CVB" <cber…@mediaone.net> > > > you exactly how to do that. We don’t know what you look like or what > your > > > social environment is. There’s some advice you have to take and simply > > > figure out for yourself. If you don’t know how to improve your > > > appearance, you have to figure that out. Also, appearance is such a > different > > > thing for every person. People are attracted to different things, > people look > > > good in different things, etc… > > That’s exaggerated. As you’ve heard, there are physically > > characteristics that are considered universally attractive, > > proportions and ratio that almost everyone likes, and so on. Even > > clothes aren’t as complicated a matter as people make it out to be, > > for socially ‘acceptable’ styles are fairly well defined. Of course, > > it isn’t always possible to improve problem areas (such as lack of > > stature), but in cases where it is, the remedies may not be easy, but > > they’re usually quite simple (braces, weightlifting, dieting, and so > > on). Hence, I take issue with the idea that this advice is as bad as > > the other school of advice. > Universally attractive? I won’t argue that. Maybe you’re right. Honestly, > I don’t care. The point is that you never know what will attract someone > else.
[pulls out a surprise from his sleeve] If you know what personality type you want to attract, you can usually know what will physically attract most people of that type. Reasonably mature INFP females, for instance, generally like their men a bit on the gangly side and friendly-looking (because they have a somewhat fearful outlook on the world around them). I just got out of a conversation with a lovely girl who thought men > with tummies were attractive and said other amazing things along that
line. Yeah, if they’re broad-shouldered and have other good features. > I couldn’t believe my ears.
Think with your head, not with your ears 
Last weekend, I was with my friend who said if > she could easily fall in love with a man who was a bit overweight.
So? That makes perfect sense, accord to theories of human evolution. My > sister’s boyfriend is a long-haired hippy with no fashion sense. He makes > her laugh and he’s a nice person.
He probably has a nice face… All women want their men to have some good, masculine features. Her last boyfriend was a clean-cut, > in-shape handsome lad with nice clothes, but he didn’t do anything for her. > I know that looks ain’t more than a fraction of the attraction.
That is incorrect. All your counter-examples were full of holes. Read about how ‘love’ works, and you’ll see that I’m correct. That’s why > I’m concentrating so hard on stopping my shyness instead of superficial > things.
Most people here need to work on the superficial things first. > But I digress. It never hurts to improve your appearance a little, like you > say. It can only help. My original argument on the matter is that the > newsgroup can’t tell you exactly how to do something to attract, for > example, a step by step guide to improve your appearance that magically > attracts a girl.
There is no such guide, even IRL for someone whose every flaw can be spotted and corrected. Life is never that easy.
Response:
Real Ketchup wrote: > wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> writes: > > In games people play, there is a game that is basically played that > > way. Can’t recall the name, but, it is a person who has a > > complaint, and rejects everyone’s solutions for one reason or > > another. > [...] > > So when you see someone seeking advice and poo-pooing it, they are > > very likely little game players. Non-game players will be thankful > > for the advice. > That is poisoning the well.
It is transactional analysis, which is a part of psychology. > Often you ask advice from someone who > knows less than you, or less about your specific situation, and they > only give you solutions that really are deficient, which you have > already considered (or are not worth considering), and which you can > validly justify discarding.
If you mimic the pattern of the game you appear to others to be playing the game. From the observers point of view, you are playing the game. > You cannot assume that just because you make two dozen suggestions that > one of them must be good.
No. But you can be polite and say thanks then shutup without comment on that persons advice. Afterall, you are the one asking for help. Do you have a problem with doing that? > I am not surprised when people make this assumption, though, and I > have abstained from asking advice in the past, when I have known how > many invalid proposals I would have to refute before possibly getting > any valuable information.
It is not an assumption, what I was talking about was a part of the book "games people play". If you appear to be playing a game, I can choose to play or not. The anti-thesis is not playing the game. > I have also realized after the fact I > should have done this, but rather than try to convince someone his > advice is bad, it’s likely better just to humor him and leave.
It isn’t a matter of humoring him. It is polite social behavior. This is not being a doormat, it is preserving your dignity. If you ask for advice, and someone gives it, then you slam his advice, you are telling him that you are not worth his time to interact with. You are saying, if you interact with me, you better tell me what I want to hear or I will punish you. Does that seem smart? How can someone who might claim they want to make friends expect to make friends with such behavior? Can you wonder why some people end up with few or no friends? Or sometimes codependent friendships. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> People often aren’t able to give up even when they have nothing to > offer.
Response:
On Thu, 14 Feb 2002, CVB wrote: > Her last boyfriend was a clean-cut, in-shape handsome lad with nice > clothes, but he didn’t do anything for her.
That can’t really be true, if he was her boyfriend…
Response:
wayne rasmussen <XvirtualDoNotSpa…@gomonarch.com> writes: > In games people play, there is a game that is basically played that > way. Can’t recall the name, but, it is a person who has a > complaint, and rejects everyone’s solutions for one reason or > another.
[...] > So when you see someone seeking advice and poo-pooing it, they are > very likely little game players. Non-game players will be thankful > for the advice.
That is poisoning the well. Often you ask advice from someone who knows less than you, or less about your specific situation, and they only give you solutions that really are deficient, which you have already considered (or are not worth considering), and which you can validly justify discarding. You cannot assume that just because you make two dozen suggestions that one of them must be good. I am not surprised when people make this assumption, though, and I have abstained from asking advice in the past, when I have known how many invalid proposals I would have to refute before possibly getting any valuable information. I have also realized after the fact I should have done this, but rather than try to convince someone his advice is bad, it’s likely better just to humor him and leave. People often aren’t able to give up even when they have nothing to offer. — The turtle has toppled.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -step…@nomail.msu.edu wrote: > Ollie B <ol…@wafflers.com> wrote: > : On 13 Feb 2002 20:59:30 -0800, naturallywe…@hotmail.com (naturallyweird) > : wrote: > :> For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do > :> it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot." > : Well, from my experience of trying to "just do it", that advice is as much > : use to me as saying to an insomniac, "Just go to sleep. If you stay awake, > : you’re a negative idiot." > : Ollie > What advice are you actually referring to? To use your example, > there are all sorts of things one can do to try and counter insomnia, > and these are things that you just have to do. Noone can make you > do them, and they are not intrinsically hard, so the ball really > is in your court. > The negative idiot part comes in when people keep insisting that > the advice cannot work even though they have not tried it yet.
They don’t know how to handle their problem but are 100% certain that some advice won’t work. In games people play, there is a game that is basically played that way. Can’t recall the name, but, it is a person who has a complaint, and rejects everyone’s solutions for one reason or another. The person playing this game "wins" as soon as someone makes any suggestion. Therefore the anti-thesis for this game is to not offer any suggestions and to either make a comment like "yes that is tough" or better still ask them how they are going to handle the problem. So when you see someone seeking advice and poo-pooing it, they are very likely little game players. Non-game players will be thankful for the advice.
Response:
Ollie B <ol…@wafflers.com> wrote:
: On 13 Feb 2002 20:59:30 -0800, naturallywe…@hotmail.com (naturallyweird) : wrote:
:> For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do :> it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot." : Well, from my experience of trying to "just do it", that advice is as much : use to me as saying to an insomniac, "Just go to sleep. If you stay awake, : you’re a negative idiot." : Ollie What advice are you actually referring to? To use your example, there are all sorts of things one can do to try and counter insomnia, and these are things that you just have to do. Noone can make you do them, and they are not intrinsically hard, so the ball really is in your court. The negative idiot part comes in when people keep insisting that the advice cannot work even though they have not tried it yet. Stephen
Response:
On 13 Feb 2002 20:59:30 -0800, naturallywe…@hotmail.com (naturallyweird) wrote: > For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do > it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot."
Well, from my experience of trying to "just do it", that advice is as much use to me as saying to an insomniac, "Just go to sleep. If you stay awake, you’re a negative idiot." Ollie
Response:
Ollie B wrote: > On 13 Feb 2002 20:59:30 -0800, naturallywe…@hotmail.com (naturallyweird) > wrote: > > For example. Stephen’s advice is, in effect, "Just do > > it. If you hesitate, you’re a negative idiot." > Well, from my experience of trying to "just do it", that advice is as much > use to me as saying to an insomniac, "Just go to sleep. If you stay awake, > you’re a negative idiot."
But your general response is about as equally helpful. People need to give more information. I can’t do "some task" doesn’t help much. I would like to do "some task", I have tried x,y, and z, and felt it didn’t work. is more useful. Giving insight about how you felt, what you thought, etc, when you tried x, y, and z is more useful as it might give insight to things such as black/white thinks, negative thinking, giving up, making leaps in logic, etc. then you can try to target specifics.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"naturallyweird" <naturallywe…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > From: "CVB" <cber…@mediaone.net> > > you exactly how to do that. We don’t know what you look like or what your > > social environment is. There’s some advice you have to take and simply > > figure out for yourself. If you don’t know how to improve your > > appearance, you have to figure that out. Also, appearance is such a different > > thing for every person. People are attracted to different things, people look > > good in different things, etc… > That’s exaggerated. As you’ve heard, there are physically > characteristics that are considered universally attractive, > proportions and ratio that almost everyone likes, and so on. Even > clothes aren’t as complicated a matter as people make it out to be, > for socially ‘acceptable’ styles are fairly well defined. Of course, > it isn’t always possible to improve problem areas (such as lack of > stature), but in cases where it is, the remedies may not be easy, but > they’re usually quite simple (braces, weightlifting, dieting, and so > on). Hence, I take issue with the idea that this advice is as bad as > the other school of advice.
Universally attractive? I won’t argue that. Maybe you’re right. Honestly, I don’t care. The point is that you never know what will attract someone else. I just got out of a conversation with a lovely girl who thought men with tummies were attractive and said other amazing things along that line. I couldn’t believe my ears. Last weekend, I was with my friend who said if she could easily fall in love with a man who was a bit overweight. My sister’s boyfriend is a long-haired hippy with no fashion sense. He makes her laugh and he’s a nice person. Her last boyfriend was a clean-cut, in-shape handsome lad with nice clothes, but he didn’t do anything for her. I know that looks ain’t more than a fraction of the attraction. That’s why I’m concentrating so hard on stopping my shyness instead of superficial things. But I digress. It never hurts to improve your appearance a little, like you say. It can only help. My original argument on the matter is that the newsgroup can’t tell you exactly how to do something to attract, for example, a step by step guide to improve your appearance that magically attracts a girl. Also wanted to point out that this concept applies to much of the other different types of advice given here.
