Very high T levels on Androderm, but still have symptoms
Question:
Hi, I’m not a doctor but now an 71 wit soem mileage on my penis with a wonderful enthusiastic wife. You are talking magic when you say: IF it’s REALLY nerves, i.e. of neurological origin, then there are ways
and means, or methods and techniques to improve the function of neurotransmitters.
I’m sure you can have some temporary improvements but age will creep in and get your nerve function probably in other areas like the sensitivity of your penis so you can’t ejaculate some day as well. You may spend a lot of money but not get back to where you want to be. The 70 year old wife can no longer have an orgasm and she is angry with God that he did this to her after doctor visits to specialists which did not help. This is a part that bothers me and this is something that is not right. Why is it that I hear from so many sources that T helps but ONLY initially. And why is it that once systemic T levels rise, desire and libido disappear. It becomes more and more clear to me that A) even the best doctors know very little and B) even the best doctors routinely ignore the brain’s other neurotransmitters including the LHRH hormone.
Your Testosterone level going up can give you the effect you want but you really can’t get that benefit to last and still have safe levels of T. I was very upset it didn’t last when I went back after 4 months for my next set of hormone pellets. He explained the facts to me. He also said my normal supply gets shut down because of the hormone the stimulates the testicles stops when the pituitary sees the low level of T you had before TRT so you now have to add enough to make up for the lost T from your testicles and more to raise you level to a high normal level. Trimix therapy is fine if it works for you, but trimix therapy is nothing but an expensive and inconvenient band-aid that you have to use because you and your doc routinely ignore the brain’s other neurotransmitters including the LHRH hormone.
TRIMIX works great and has not faded away in effectiveness. My normal erection processes have not been functioning right since I was in my late 50’s and my wife and I are thrilled there is such a "band-aid" available. You can either enjoy the results or continue looking for the other alternatives you mentioned. IF they don’t work out for you, this band-aid is for you too. ernie
Response:
Rich, Ever since you verbally assaulted me for questioning your "answers" to a serious inquiry of mine, I’ve noticed that you have a condescending lilt to all of your responses to posts. Read your responses to this poster and see if you can understand how your responses appear to the readers. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sorry but "nerves" sound like no more than a convenient, non-specific, vague substance that we cannot hang our hats on. IF it’s REALLY nerves, i.e. of neurological origin, then there are ways and means, or methods and techniques to improve the function of neurotransmitters. I’m sorry but "stress", too, sounds like another convenient, non-specific, random event we cannot control. IF it was REALLY stress, then why didn’t we have any ED in our teenage years when we were timid, nervous and self-conscious and therefore subject to a heck of a lot more stress than now? This is a part that bothers me and this is something that is not right. Why is it that I hear from so many sources that T helps but ONLY initially. And why is it that once systemic T levels rise, desire and libido disappear. It becomes more and more clear to me that A) even the best doctors know very little and B) even the best doctors routinely ignore the brain’s other
Its funny that you told someone in an earlier post that "I do know a lot about hormonal and other medical matters, and therefore I can help you." Yea, like telling people that transdermally applied nitroglycerine was an effective remedy for viagra induced delayed orgasms. How about you to rub yourself down with nitro paste and get back to us about how it made you feel? Do this on viagra please. I respect anyone’s right to contribute to this group, no matter what their level of knowledge, but I think it is deplorable to sneer at other’s comments - especially when yours are SO not beyond reproach.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – According to his his stimulation tests the hypothalamic-pituitary axis is esentially ok, so my hypogonadism is (more or less) primary. Once T gel became available in Germany, my Endo tried it out on me. He had conducted a University study on it, but only on eugonadal men to check the increase. I became his first hypogonadal guinea pig. So far the result came for both of us as a surprise. 10 days after switching from Andriol to gel I felt subjectively just a bit worse than with Andriol. But, my last T level measured with Andriol was 400 ng/dl (ref range 300 – 1000 for all men, 300 – 600 for my age) and with the gel I sported 960 ! If my libido went proportional to the T I probably would roam the streets, drooling and chasing every female. But fact is, my libido is there and quite considerable, but it does not correlate with the T, at least not the short period (over a couple of days) variations. This is quite puzzling and the endo does not understand it as well. On the short term I will continue the gel and in another month he will conduct the full check up, including checking for possible side effects of continue high levels. Franz
This is quite puzzling to the endo? And he does not understand it? I bet because your endo — like most "doctors" — do NOT keep up with scientific research. Therefore your endo is about as powerless as the customers/patients/consumers he’s trying to serve. For example, according to an article in the October 1994 edition of Pharmacol Biochem Behav (49(2):313-22) — title "Serotonergic control of androgen-induced dominance.", authors: "Bonson KR, Johnson RG, Fiorella D, Rabin RA, Winter JC." — EIGHT YEARS AGO there was a study that investigated the role of serotonergic systems in anabolic steroid-induced aggression..The article says chronic administration of an androgen (T. Propionate) is necessary for dominant behavior. BUT despite of high chronic T levels, IF any of the following serotonergic chemicals are also in circulation, in proportion to their dosage levels, aggressive/dominant behavior is defeated: Buspirone, gepirone, eltoprazine, pizotyline, pirenpirone, pindolol, and a few others. If you’re interested, there has been a lot more additional research on this subject. But, if you have a "typical doctor", don’t hold your breath till your doctor reads up on the subject. And don’t ask him to check your buspirone, gepirone, eltoprazine, pizotyline, pirenpirone, pindolol levels, because he won’t have any idea of what you’re talking about. Rich
Response:
For example, according to an article in the October 1994 edition of Pharmacol Biochem Behav (49(2):313-22) — title "Serotonergic control of androgen-induced dominance.", authors: "Bonson KR, Johnson RG, Fiorella D, Rabin RA, Winter JC." — EIGHT YEARS AGO there was a study that investigated the role of serotonergic systems in anabolic steroid-induced aggression.
BTW, this was a study on rats. It might have relevance to people. However reading the abstract, I’m not clear on some of their conclusions. E.g. they noticed rats became more dominate when given testosterone, and the dominate behavior diminished when giving them morphine or other drugs. They concluded the "calming" mechanism was increased serotonin. That’s possible, but it seems you’d have carefully consider the calming effect these drugs have all by themselves. I’m not saying there’s no relationship between serotonin and testosterone, indeed, it seems a good area for further research. However any such conclusions must be consistent with emerging research that increasingly indicates neurotransmitter levels themselves don’t affect behavior, at least to the extent previously thought. Some of this research was done after the above paper was published in 1994, so maybe they didn’t have access to this information. One major paper on this was by Ronald Duman’s group at Yale. Here is a popular-level article on that, and following is the abstract itself: http://www.post-gazette.com/healthscience/20021028braincellssci2p2.asp A molecular and cellular theory of depression. Duman RS, Heninger GR, Nestler EJ. Arch Gen Psychiatry. 1997 Jul;54(7):597-606. Department of Psychiatry, Yale University School of Medicine, Connecticut Mental Health Center, New Haven, USA. Recent studies have begun to characterize the actions of stress and antidepressant treatments beyond the neurotransmitter and receptor level. This work has demonstrated that long-term antidepressant treatments result in the sustained activation of the cyclic adenosine 3′,5′-monophosphate system in specific brain regions, including the increased function and expression of the transcription factor cyclic adenosine monophosphate response element-binding protein. The activated cyclic adenosine 3′,5′-monophosphate system leads to the regulation of specific target genes, including the increased expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor in certain populations of neurons in the hippocampus and cerebral cortex. The importance of these changes is highlighted by the discovery that stress can decrease the expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor and lead to atrophy of these same populations of stress-vulnerable hippocampal neurons. The possibility that the decreased size and impaired function of these neurons may be involved in depression is supported by recent clinical imaging studies, which demonstrate a decreased volume of certain brain structures. These findings constitute the framework for an updated molecular and cellular hypothesis of depression, which posits that stress-induced vulnerability and the therapeutic action of antidepressant treatments occur via intracellular mechanisms that decrease or increase, respectively, neurotrophic factors necessary for the survival and function of particular neurons. This hypothesis also explains how stress and other types of neuronal insult can lead to depression in vulnerable individuals and it outlines novel targets for the rational design of fundamentally new therapeutic agents.
Response:
….. then the same doctors reject any atypical / less-than-4-hour personal experience reported by anyone.
Here’s an inconsistency in how Drs view T: they’ll often point to studies saying higher early morning T causes morning erections. Yet this diurnal T increase is quite small, maybe 20%. Or group studies saying criminals have higher T levels. Yet this increase is quite small, usually around 15-20%, if that. There are many such studies superficially correlating *marginally* higher T to various psychological or behavior factors. Yet when we approach them for TRT, they say small increases in T doesn’t make any difference — you’re in the reference range. So which is it? If small increases make no difference, then all those studies are invalid. OTOH if they are valid, then a low-normal male trying TRT might well help. ….. Franz, as to T gel, it could be the effect of serotonin (S). Your libido doesn’t go up in proportion to blood concentration of T? You don’t roam the streets, and you don’t chase every female? In some lay publication I read the following: Aggressive behavior (A) requires high T in tandem with low S. High T and mediocre S cannot make you very aggressive. Of course this is puzzling to doctors, because this A = T/S relationship is never taught in med school.
A quick search of the NLM database (http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/gw/Cmd) doesn’t show any papers discussing human studies of a testosterone to serotonin relationship. Note even if there was a relationship, that doesn’t mean that serotonin was a factor in changed symptoms. The often repeated "serotonin imbalance", aka the monoamine hypothesis of behavior and depression is almost certainly wrong. Current research points to an increase in brain derived neurotrophic factor as the possible antidepressant mechanism. However there are other theories. Here’s a good article discussing this: http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1175/2_32/53985475/p1/article.jhtml Another way we know problems such as depression aren’t caused by a lack of serotonin is the antidepressant Tianeptine (Stablon) is as effective as SSRIs, yet works by *decreasing* serotonin. It avoids the sexual side afffects of SSRIs. Unfortunately it’s not available in the US. — Joe D.
Response:
Ok, here are my results: Testosterone: 209.0H nmol/L (8.8 – 26) Free Testosterone 347.0H pmol/L (32.0 – 100.0) LH <0.7 L mIU/mL (0.8 – 7.6) Serum Estradiol < 73 pmol/L (<206) To reiterate, this is after being on the 5mg Androderm patch for four months. Prior to that I was on Andriol for 12 months. Before starting any TRT, my T was slightly outside the normal non age adjusted range on the low side. Joe.
Response:
Ernie,
ED can be cured by TRT maybe if you are a young person and missed having normal levels of T and TRT is started.
Yes, that’s right. Your nerves are at their best and all of the pathways essential to an erection are in order.
I’m sorry but "nerves" sound like no more than a convenient, non-specific, vague substance that we cannot hang our hats on. IF it’s REALLY nerves, i.e. of neurological origin, then there are ways and means, or methods and techniques to improve the function of neurotransmitters. After we get up in years (I’m 71) the nerves begin to fade gradually that allow us to have an erection and all sorts of other things like stress are chewing on us and overloading our ability to have a normal sex life. After the battle goes on for years, the outside forces gradually win now and then and later more often.
I’m sorry but "stress", too, sounds like another convenient, non-specific, random event we cannot control. IF it was REALLY stress, then why didn’t we have any ED in our teenage years when we were timid, nervous and self-conscious and therefore subject to a heck of a lot more stress than now? Dr. Shippen’s book, "The Testosterone Syndrome" discussed the need for proper T levels and the penalties we pay if we don’t have them.
I agree; T levels need to be restored to youthful levels. When I first started TRT I had ED which suddenly went away and for weeks as my T level was increasing, I performed like a teen. Then the level stabilized and I was right back where I was before with ED being so much of a problem, we could not enjoy intercourse as I would not last long enough for the wife with a failed erection or early ejaculation which I might also miss if I didn’t hurry.
This is a part that bothers me and this is something that is not right. Why is it that I hear from so many sources that T helps but ONLY initially. And why is it that once systemic T levels rise, desire and libido disappear. It becomes more and more clear to me that A) even the best doctors know very little and B) even the best doctors routinely ignore the brain’s other neurotransmitters including the LHRH hormone. I then went to Dr. Irwin Goldstein, Boston Univ. and received trimix therapy about 1991 long before viagra. It worked and I’m still receiving both hormone pellet therapy and trimix therapy.
Trimix therapy is fine if it works for you, but trimix therapy is nothing but an expensive and inconvenient band-aid that you have to use because you and your doc routinely ignore the brain’s other neurotransmitters including the LHRH hormone. There are frequently 2 or more problems that can ruin our sex lives. I never even mentioned the psychological ones that can take us over as well.
I agree. That is very true Rich
Response:
Hi, Haven’t read all of the comments under your original note but anyway……. ED can be cured by TRT maybe if you are a young person and missed having normal levels of T and TRT is started. Your nerves are at their best and all of the pathways essential to an erection are in order. After we get up in years (I’m 71) the nerves begin to fade gradually that allow us to have an erection and all sorts of other things like stress are chewing on us and overloading our ability to have a normal sex life. After the battle goes on for years, the outside forces gradually win now and then and later more often. Dr. Shippen’s book, "The Testosterone Syndrome" discussed the need for proper T levels and the penalties we pay if we don’t have them. When I first started TRT I had ED which suddenly went away and for weeks as my T level was increasing, I performed like a teen. Then the level stabilized and I was right back where I was before with ED being so much of a problem, we could not enjoy intercourse as I would not last long enough for the wife with a failed erection or early ejaculation which I might also miss if I didn’t hurry. I then went to Dr. Irwin Goldstein, Boston Univ. and received trimix therapy about 1991 long before viagra. It worked and I’m still receiving both hormone pellet therapy and trimix therapy. If you need an endocrinologist for a man with hormone problems, the best I know is Dr. Gambrell who has a web site at: http://www.members.aol.com/gambr999/study.htm If you want the best urologist you can find, I suggest going to Boston Univ. to see Dr. I. Goldstein. There are frequently 2 or more problems that can ruin our sex lives. I never even mentioned the psychological ones that can take us over as well. ernestnolan
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Funny, my experiences are a bit similar: Perhaps you remember, I have been on Andriol (3-5 caps/day) for a very long time and quite happy with it to the bewilderment of my endo, who considers it as very mild stuff. Hi Franz, Yes, I remember you very well. And thanks again for your feedback and information. I still feel very good, a few days later now, and back on the Androderm of course. It’s as if that one single Andriol capsule kick started me again. Very strange. I had my second sleep study last night, this time with a CPAP machine. I felt so utterly wide awake that I barely slept at all, and indeed, they told me I didn’t sleep long enough for them to come up with a prescription. I feel that my insomnia was partly due to the "pumped up" feeling I had, which I think is mostly due to the TRT. But it’s been weeks since I felt like this. Almost as if this new box of Androderm is stronger than my previous one. (I’m sure it can’t be that one Andriol capsule still having an effect!) I’ve decided to half the dosage for a while, rather than come off it altogether. In my first sleep study, they found that I have a disruptive sleep, but I do not have sleep apnea. (not even close). I’m hoping that the CPAP will help me and eventually I would then consider coming off the TRT altogether to see if I could get by with just the CPAP. Joe.
Response:
Funny, my experiences are a bit similar: Perhaps you remember, I have been on Andriol (3-5 caps/day) for a very long time and quite happy with it to the bewilderment of my endo, who considers it as very mild stuff.
Hi Franz, Yes, I remember you very well. And thanks again for your feedback and information. I still feel very good, a few days later now, and back on the Androderm of course. It’s as if that one single Andriol capsule kick started me again. Very strange. I had my second sleep study last night, this time with a CPAP machine. I felt so utterly wide awake that I barely slept at all, and indeed, they told me I didn’t sleep long enough for them to come up with a prescription. I feel that my insomnia was partly due to the "pumped up" feeling I had, which I think is mostly due to the TRT. But it’s been weeks since I felt like this. Almost as if this new box of Androderm is stronger than my previous one. (I’m sure it can’t be that one Andriol capsule still having an effect!) I’ve decided to half the dosage for a while, rather than come off it altogether. In my first sleep study, they found that I have a disruptive sleep, but I do not have sleep apnea. (not even close). I’m hoping that the CPAP will help me and eventually I would then consider coming off the TRT altogether to see if I could get by with just the CPAP. Joe.
Response:
….. then the same doctors reject any atypical / less-than-4-hour personal experience reported by anyone. Here’s an inconsistency in how Drs view T: they’ll often point to studies
saying higher early morning T causes morning erections. Yet this diurnal T increase is quite small, maybe 20%. Or group studies saying criminals have higher T levels. Yet this increase is quite small, usually around 15-20%, if that. There are many such studies superficially correlating *marginally* higher T to various psychological or behavior factors. Yet when we approach them for TRT, they say small increases in T doesn’t
make any difference — you’re in the reference range. So which is it? If small increases make no difference, then all those studies are invalid. OTOH if they are valid, then a low-normal male trying TRT might well help. A typical "doctor" is NOT a doctor. He gets WAY too much credit for his low-level, entry-level degree. A typical "doctor" has ONLY a bachelor’s degree in medicine. Additionally, a typical "doctor" is NOT A MASTER debater. Perhaps this is why many times, TOO MANY times his arguments make no sense. Too many times their limited education doesn’t make any sense either. In other words, just because they memorize in med school some basic/limited, questionable/outdated stuff, they do not become authorities on anything. The education they get is very-very limited and also very outdated, even at the time when they receive it. Basically the typical "doctor" is an overpaid WORKER, working with his hands, and trained primarily as a SURGEON. In other words, he’s MOST useful, if a Mac truck hits you. But he’s NOT very useful, and can do a lot of harm when it comes to debating and/or recommending chemicals, made by chemists. Debating chemicals and/or body processes is the specialty of scientific researchers. And a typical "doctor" is not a scientific researcher. A typical "doctor" does not keep up with scientific research. Why should he? What’s the incentive? Where is his competition? Franz, as to T gel, it could be the effect of serotonin (S). Your libido doesn’t go up in proportion to blood concentration of T? You don’t roam the streets, and you don’t chase every female? In some lay publication I read the following: Aggressive behavior (A) requires high T in tandem with low S. High T and mediocre S cannot make you very aggressive. Of course this is puzzling to doctors, because this A = T/S relationship is never taught in med school. A quick search of the NLM database (http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/gw/Cmd)
doesn’t show any papers discussing human studies of a testosterone to serotonin relationship. Note even if there was a relationship, that doesn’t mean that serotonin was a factor in changed symptoms. The fact that the NLM database doesn’t have any studies on this "A = T/S" relationship is NO proof that there’s no A = T/S relationship. Additionally, in the unlikely event there have not been any studies on this "A = T/S" relationship is NO proof that there’s no "A = T/S" relationship. The often repeated "serotonin imbalance", aka
the monoamine hypothesis of behavior and depression is almost certainly wrong. Current research points to an increase in brain derived neurotrophic factor as the possible antidepressant mechanism. However there are other theories. Here’s a good article discussing this: http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m1175/2_32/53985475/p1/article.jhtml Another way we know problems such as depression aren’t caused by a lack of serotonin is the antidepressant Tianeptine (Stablon) is as effective as SSRIs, yet works by *decreasing* serotonin. It avoids the sexual side afffects of SSRIs. Unfortunately it’s not available in the US.– Joe D. Perhaps we/you/I should do an experimental study on the combined effects of high T and low S. Perhaps we/you/I could use Tianeptine (Stablon) for the experimental study. – Rich
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rich, Yes, he said it could have been a placebo effect. Naturally I don’t believe that. ;^) The very first day I started on Andriol, I also felt it starting to have an effect in less than half an hour. As time wore on, it became harder and harder to notice anything shortly after taking a dose, but I almost always noticed a slight change – the first thing to happen is a slight increase in salivation and also a clearing of my nasal passages. In fact, one of the most significant benefits of TRT (both Andriol and Androderm) is and always has been that it seems to be helping with a nasal/sinus problem which I seem to have. The effect on my sexual health always seems to be rather short lived after increasing the dosage. Thanks, Joe. Funny, my experiences are a bit similar: Perhaps you remember, I have been on Andriol (3-5 caps/day) for a very long time and quite happy with it to the bewilderment of my endo, who considers it as very mild stuff. According to his his stimulation tests the hypothalamic-pituitary axis is esentially ok, so my hypogonadism is (more or less) primary. Once T gel became available in Germany, my Endo tried it out on me. He had conducted a University study on it, but only on eugonadal men to check the increase. I became his first hypogonadal guinea pig. So far the result came for both of us as a surprise. 10 days after switching from Andriol to gel I felt subjectively just a bit worse than with Andriol. But, my last T level measured with Andriol was 400 ng/dl (ref range 300 – 1000 for all men, 300 – 600 for my age) and with the gel I sported 960 ! If my libido went proportional to the T I probably would roam the streets, drooling and chasing every female. But fact is, my libido is there and quite considerable, but it does not correlate with the T, at least not the short period (over a couple of days) variations. This is quite puzzling and the endo does not understand it as well. On the short term I will continue the gel and in another month he will conduct the full check up, including checking for possible side effects of continue high levels. Franz
Joe, as to noticing the effect of Andriol after 1/2 hour, if you need the med badly, then yes, of course you can notice the effects of it earlier than 4 hours. You have your biological individuality. Unfortunatelly, doctors dutifully memorize the statement of "peak testosterone levels are reached in approximately 4 to 5 hours after ingestion" and then the same doctors reject any atypical / less-than-4-hour personal experience reported by anyone. Franz, maybe you got much out of Andriol, because Andriol was your first T product. Or because the med gave you many sharp, abeit short peaks. — There are MANY who do not get much out of Andriol, probably because the short half-life of T concentration AND because there are many who digest food quickly. Franz, as to T gel, it could be the effect of serotonin (S). Your libido doesn’t go up in proportion to blood concentration of T? You don’t roam the streets, and you don’t chase every female? In some lay publication I read the following: Aggressive behavior (A) requires high T in tandem with low S. High T and mediocre S cannot make you very aggressive. Of course this is puzzling to doctors, because this A = T/S relationship is never taught in med school. Franz, as to T gel, another possibility is immediate conversion of T to Estriol and/or DHT. Franz, as to T gel, still another possibility is that many doctors and/or big pharma companies monitor T, when it is the FT that should be monitored instead. Rich
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rich, Yes, he said it could have been a placebo effect. Naturally I don’t believe that. ;^) The very first day I started on Andriol, I also felt it starting to have an effect in less than half an hour. As time wore on, it became harder and harder to notice anything shortly after taking a dose, but I almost always noticed a slight change – the first thing to happen is a slight increase in salivation and also a clearing of my nasal passages. In fact, one of the most significant benefits of TRT (both Andriol and Androderm) is and always has been that it seems to be helping with a nasal/sinus problem which I seem to have. The effect on my sexual health always seems to be rather short lived after increasing the dosage. Thanks, Joe.
Funny, my experiences are a bit similar: Perhaps you remember, I have been on Andriol (3-5 caps/day) for a very long time and quite happy with it to the bewilderment of my endo, who considers it as very mild stuff. According to his his stimulation tests the hypothalamic-pituitary axis is esentially ok, so my hypogonadism is (more or less) primary. Once T gel became available in Germany, my Endo tried it out on me. He had conducted a University study on it, but only on eugonadal men to check the increase. I became his first hypogonadal guinea pig. So far the result came for both of us as a surprise. 10 days after switching from Andriol to gel I felt subjectively just a bit worse than with Andriol. But, my last T level measured with Andriol was 400 ng/dl (ref range 300 – 1000 for all men, 300 – 600 for my age) and with the gel I sported 960 ! If my libido went proportional to the T I probably would roam the streets, drooling and chasing every female. But fact is, my libido is there and quite considerable, but it does not correlate with the T, at least not the short period (over a couple of days) variations. This is quite puzzling and the endo does not understand it as well. On the short term I will continue the gel and in another month he will conduct the full check up, including checking for possible side effects of continue high levels. Franz
Response:
Rich, Yes, he said it could have been a placebo effect. Naturally I don’t believe that. ;^) The very first day I started on Andriol, I also felt it starting to have an effect in less than half an hour. As time wore on, it became harder and harder to notice anything shortly after taking a dose, but I almost always noticed a slight change – the first thing to happen is a slight increase in salivation and also a clearing of my nasal passages. In fact, one of the most significant benefits of TRT (both Andriol and Androderm) is and always has been that it seems to be helping with a nasal/sinus problem which I seem to have. The effect on my sexual health always seems to be rather short lived after increasing the dosage. Thanks, Joe.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s been 18 months now since I first started on TRT. I started on Andriol (increasing the dosage a few times), and after I still had symptoms on 6 x 40mg Andriol capsules per day, switched to a 5mg Androderm patch. I have been on the Androderm for about 4 months now, and a recent blood test shows that my T levels are very high. I forgot to ask for a copy of the results (will get them soon), but one of the results had a normal range of 8 to 26, but the reading was over 200(!!!). LH was low and outside the normal range. E2 is low normal. Since I still have symptoms (low sex drive, fatigue, tiredness), my doctor has recommended that I come off the TRT altogether, because the TRT has not eliminated my symptoms. If I want to keep on the TRT, he has recommended I switch to a 2.5mg patch. Every specialist I have seen has recommended that I stop the TRT, despite the low-ish reading I had before starting on the TRT – they say that my readings weren’t low enough to cause symptoms. However, they all said that I could keep on the TRT if I really wanted to. I’m probably going to now come off the TRT altogether, and keep on trying to find out what my real problem is. This is going to take a lot of will power, because while the TRT does not eliminate my symptoms, it has helped somewhat. I’ll post my results as soon as I recieve a copy, in any case. Joe. p.s I accidentally ran out of Androderm the other day, and since I still had some Andriol left, I decided to a) leave the patch on the next night/morning, and b) take just one 40mg Andriol capsule that night, to help keep the levels up a bit until I got my Androderm. I had been feeling quite tired & sort of "light headed" for a week or so. About half an hour after taking the Andriol capsule, I felt fantastic, and it’s now 24 hours later and I still have my old patch on and haven’t taken any more Andriol, and I still feel great. It seems to me that every time I either increase my dosage, or *switch* treatments, I feel very good. I told my doctor this today, and he said that what I noticed is impossible – Andriol simply doesn’t get absorbed anywhere NEAR that quickly. Oh well. Either you have a disappointingly negative doctor — the word "impossible" is a negativ word !– or it was a placebo effect, OR maybe it was a bit longer than "half an hour". Per Rxmed, Andriol is: "testosterone undecanoate, an orally active testosterone preparation, is a fatty acid ester of the natural androgen testosterone. Unlike other oral testosterone preparations, TU is able to by-pass the liver via the lymphatic system and is therefore orally bioavailable. Therapy with Andriol increases plasma levels of testosterone and its active metabolites, leading to a regular therapeutic effect. In eugonadal men, peak testosterone levels are reached in approximately 4 to 5 hours after ingestion returning to basal levels after about 10 hours. In volunteers and hypogonadal (i.e. low natural testosterone) men, 77 to 93% of an orally administered dose of TU was excreted in the urine and faeces within 3 to 4 days." — Rich
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s been 18 months now since I first started on TRT. I started on Andriol (increasing the dosage a few times), and after I still had symptoms on 6 x 40mg Andriol capsules per day, switched to a 5mg Androderm patch. I have been on the Androderm for about 4 months now, and a recent blood test shows that my T levels are very high. I forgot to ask for a copy of the results (will get them soon), but one of the results had a normal range of 8 to 26, but the reading was over 200(!!!). LH was low and outside the normal range. E2 is low normal. Since I still have symptoms (low sex drive, fatigue, tiredness), my doctor has recommended that I come off the TRT altogether, because the TRT has not eliminated my symptoms. If I want to keep on the TRT, he has recommended I switch to a 2.5mg patch. Every specialist I have seen has recommended that I stop the TRT, despite the low-ish reading I had before starting on the TRT – they say that my readings weren’t low enough to cause symptoms. However, they all said that I could keep on the TRT if I really wanted to. I’m probably going to now come off the TRT altogether, and keep on trying to find out what my real problem is. This is going to take a lot of will power, because while the TRT does not eliminate my symptoms, it has helped somewhat. I’ll post my results as soon as I recieve a copy, in any case. Joe. p.s I accidentally ran out of Androderm the other day, and since I still had some Andriol left, I decided to a) leave the patch on the next night/morning, and b) take just one 40mg Andriol capsule that night, to help keep the levels up a bit until I got my Androderm. I had been feeling quite tired & sort of "light headed" for a week or so. About half an hour after taking the Andriol capsule, I felt fantastic, and it’s now 24 hours later and I still have my old patch on and haven’t taken any more Andriol, and I still feel great. It seems to me that every time I either increase my dosage, or *switch* treatments, I feel very good. I told my doctor this today, and he said that what I noticed is impossible – Andriol simply doesn’t get absorbed anywhere NEAR that quickly. Oh well.
Either you have a disappointingly negative doctor — the word "impossible" is a negativ word !– or it was a placebo effect, OR maybe it was a bit longer than "half an hour". Per Rxmed, Andriol is: "testosterone undecanoate, an orally active testosterone preparation, is a fatty acid ester of the natural androgen testosterone. Unlike other oral testosterone preparations, TU is able to by-pass the liver via the lymphatic system and is therefore orally bioavailable. Therapy with Andriol increases plasma levels of testosterone and its active metabolites, leading to a regular therapeutic effect. In eugonadal men, peak testosterone levels are reached in approximately 4 to 5 hours after ingestion returning to basal levels after about 10 hours. In volunteers and hypogonadal (i.e. low natural testosterone) men, 77 to 93% of an orally administered dose of TU was excreted in the urine and faeces within 3 to 4 days." — Rich
Response:
It’s been 18 months now since I first started on TRT. I started on Andriol (increasing the dosage a few times), and after I still had symptoms on 6 x 40mg Andriol capsules per day, switched to a 5mg Androderm patch. I have been on the Androderm for about 4 months now, and a recent blood test shows that my T levels are very high. I forgot to ask for a copy of the results (will get them soon), but one of the results had a normal range of 8 to 26, but the reading was over 200(!!!). LH was low and outside the normal range. E2 is low normal. Since I still have symptoms (low sex drive, fatigue, tiredness), my doctor has recommended that I come off the TRT altogether, because the TRT has not eliminated my symptoms. If I want to keep on the TRT, he has recommended I switch to a 2.5mg patch. Every specialist I have seen has recommended that I stop the TRT, despite the low-ish reading I had before starting on the TRT – they say that my readings weren’t low enough to cause symptoms. However, they all said that I could keep on the TRT if I really wanted to. I’m probably going to now come off the TRT altogether, and keep on trying to find out what my real problem is. This is going to take a lot of will power, because while the TRT does not eliminate my symptoms, it has helped somewhat. I’ll post my results as soon as I recieve a copy, in any case. Joe. p.s I accidentally ran out of Androderm the other day, and since I still had some Andriol left, I decided to a) leave the patch on the next night/morning, and b) take just one 40mg Andriol capsule that night, to help keep the levels up a bit until I got my Androderm. I had been feeling quite tired & sort of "light headed" for a week or so. About half an hour after taking the Andriol capsule, I felt fantastic, and it’s now 24 hours later and I still have my old patch on and haven’t taken any more Andriol, and I still feel great. It seems to me that every time I either increase my dosage, or *switch* treatments, I feel very good. I told my doctor this today, and he said that what I noticed is impossible – Andriol simply doesn’t get absorbed anywhere NEAR that quickly. Oh well.
