Sleeping Disorder » Nocturia

CPAP Insomnia ?

admin — Wed, 21 Jul 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I used to drink 2 pots a day of coffee. Do yourself a favor and cut out both alcohol and caffeine, good luck. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >Hello all. > I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I >probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out >about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for >the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight >the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I >adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., >and am now sleeping very comfortably with it >The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >time, but maybe not. >So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get >through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of >my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular >schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? >Thanks again.

Response:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:01:22 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: >The best advice is the sleep hygiene one. Avoid caffeine drinks in >the last few hours before going to bed, if you do wake up and don’t >sleep again easily, it is OK to get up, but I would get up rather than >reading in bed.

I’ve been doing the best I can with that. I don’t drink caffeine drinks anyways. I used to read in bed, but I’ve changed to at least going over to the couch in the next room. >If sleeping position and mask leak are a problem, the ResMed Mirage >Activa mask is an excellent solution as reported by most people here >who have tried one. The extra layer of air-filled cushion means >that it is very tolerant to sideways forces which can happen when you >are on your side. However, I would suggest waiting for a bit, >because this is not a cheap mask. See how things are in a month or >so and then review the mask issue.

I looked at the Activa when I was getting my CPAP earlier this week, but I didn’t like it that much. I settled on the Ultra Mirage, which I find comfortable. I don’t think the sleeping position is so much of a problem, because I have no problem initially falling asleep on my back. My DME provider did tell me that ResMed allows returns, so I have up to 30 days to trade in the Ultra Mirage for something else, if it doesn’t work for me. Hopefully I’ll have a better idea by them. Thanks, Todd Todd Palino Website: http://bonkoif.com/ Public Key: http://bonkoif.com/publickey.txt Your excuse is: Route flapping at the NAP. SpamBlock in place. Get rid of the "foobar" before you email me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Todd Palino" wrote in message news:0hnvf093es7s59rup14soht8qdvjcphgs8@4ax.com… > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 16:01:22 +0100, Andy Hall > wrote: > >The best advice is the sleep hygiene one. Avoid caffeine drinks in > >the last few hours before going to bed, if you do wake up and don’t > >sleep again easily, it is OK to get up, but I would get up rather than > >reading in bed. > I’ve been doing the best I can with that. I don’t drink caffeine > drinks anyways. I used to read in bed, but I’ve changed to at least > going over to the couch in the next room. > >If sleeping position and mask leak are a problem, the ResMed Mirage > >Activa mask is an excellent solution as reported by most people here > >who have tried one. The extra layer of air-filled cushion means > >that it is very tolerant to sideways forces which can happen when you > >are on your side. However, I would suggest waiting for a bit, > >because this is not a cheap mask. See how things are in a month or > >so and then review the mask issue. > I looked at the Activa when I was getting my CPAP earlier this week, > but I didn’t like it that much. I settled on the Ultra Mirage, which > I find comfortable. I don’t think the sleeping position is so much of > a problem, because I have no problem initially falling asleep on my > back. > My DME provider did tell me that ResMed allows returns, so I have up > to 30 days to trade in the Ultra Mirage for something else, if it > doesn’t work for me. Hopefully I’ll have a better idea by them. > Thanks, > Todd

The Ultra Mirage (and similar Respironics Comfort Select) are excellent masks, and light and small – but if you turn over much, leakage can wake you, and the Activa, "klunky" as it seems in comparison (larger and heavier), is then superior. I alternate between the CS and Activa, which helps – though I have just started with a full-face mask due to mouth-breathing. BTW, I have a spare sealed Ultra Mirage with headgear, in medium, for sale if you go for the Activa, but then also want a lighter mask (a medium in one fits a medium, or standard, in the other) to alternate with it. — David Ruether r…@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether

Response:

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:51:04 -0400, Todd Palino – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >>The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >>hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >>up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >>time, but maybe not. >OK, I just started (last night was my third night), and I’m having the >same problem. I go to bed about 11pm, and sleep soundly until about >2am, when I wake up. Then I spend the rest of the night tossing and >turning and not sleeping well until my alarm goes off at 6am. >Similar to what someone said in this thread already, I figure that >this is because my body is so used to getting 3 effective hours of >sleep because of the OSA that it needs time to adjust to getting 7 >hours of sleep (or whatever I settle out at). But my question is, >should I get up when I wake up at 2am, or should I go back to sleep? >Right now I’m staying in bed, but is that the quickest way to letting >my body adjust to the quality of sleep that I’m getting on CPAP?

I found that exactly the same thing happened in the early days and the solution for me seemed to be to stay in bed for up to about half an hour, and if I was still wide awake, get up and go downstairs (or to a living room) and read or do something else. More often than not, I would feel sleepy again in a couple of hours, go back to bed and sleep again for a couple more hours. Gradually the effect changed to the point that I would wake up initially, later until I would sleep through until about 0500 and then wake and not want to sleep again. Finally, the time lengthened to around seven hours. All of this took several weeks though. The best advice is the sleep hygiene one. Avoid caffeine drinks in the last few hours before going to bed, if you do wake up and don’t sleep again easily, it is OK to get up, but I would get up rather than reading in bed. Everybody is different, though. >Waking up doesn’t appear to be due to any external stimuli. The CPAP >is quiet enough (doesn’t bother me or my wife). My mask fits well and >is adjusted loosely. I have been sleeping the first part of the night >on my back (which is a chance from how I usually sleep), and falling >asleep quickly. I don’t move around once I’m asleep either. The room >temperature is stable, and I don’t need to go to the bathroom when I >wake up at 2. After I wake up, I end up trying to sleep on my back, >and can’t get to sleep. If I roll over onto my side or my stomach, I >have a hard time getting comfortable with the mask on and end up >sleeping, but not well. >I know that it’s going to take time to adjust to the CPAP, I just want >to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to help it along.

I think that you pretty much are. The best advice is to take it steadily, don’t change more than one thing at a time. Most people find some immediate effects and others later and more subtle. If sleeping position and mask leak are a problem, the ResMed Mirage Activa mask is an excellent solution as reported by most people here who have tried one. The extra layer of air-filled cushion means that it is very tolerant to sideways forces which can happen when you are on your side. However, I would suggest waiting for a bit, because this is not a cheap mask. See how things are in a month or so and then review the mask issue. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Todd Palino" wrote in message news:2idvf0h5h2scrs5rf9pnga9g4of8at91kj@4ax.com… > OK, I just started (last night was my third night), and I’m having the > same problem. I go to bed about 11pm, and sleep soundly until about > 2am, when I wake up. Then I spend the rest of the night tossing and > turning and not sleeping well until my alarm goes off at 6am. > Similar to what someone said in this thread already, I figure that > this is because my body is so used to getting 3 effective hours of > sleep because of the OSA that it needs time to adjust to getting 7 > hours of sleep (or whatever I settle out at). But my question is, > should I get up when I wake up at 2am, or should I go back to sleep? > Right now I’m staying in bed, but is that the quickest way to letting > my body adjust to the quality of sleep that I’m getting on CPAP? > Waking up doesn’t appear to be due to any external stimuli. The CPAP > is quiet enough (doesn’t bother me or my wife). My mask fits well and > is adjusted loosely. I have been sleeping the first part of the night > on my back (which is a chance from how I usually sleep), and falling > asleep quickly. I don’t move around once I’m asleep either. The room > temperature is stable, and I don’t need to go to the bathroom when I > wake up at 2. After I wake up, I end up trying to sleep on my back, > and can’t get to sleep. If I roll over onto my side or my stomach, I > have a hard time getting comfortable with the mask on and end up > sleeping, but not well. > I know that it’s going to take time to adjust to the CPAP, I just want > to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to help it along. > -Todd

You may want to look at pillow alternatives that are more comfortable to use with masks (with nothces, or with "memory" – I use a "NASA" foam $20 pillow from Target that works well, though it is "hotter" than I like). It took me several nights of fiddling with the straps’ (light) tension in tiny increments for the mask not to leak (mostly) when I turned over, and to accept some (not too uncomfortable/noisy) leakage. Before placing/replacing the mask, a wipe first of the mask seal area, then the skin seal area helped the seal. A heated humidifier was essential. Helpful for me was having two different masks for alternating (Activa and Comfort Select) every few days. I still had trouble getting much sleep. I found it best to not worry about it for maybe 1/2 hour after waking (while still connected to the CPAP gear), then if sleep failed, to *get up* and read or watch TV. If the desire to sleep returned soon enough, returning to bed was sometimes useful. Somewhat later, I tended to stay asleep longer, but then could not sleep again (with about 4.5-5 hours/day total). This was followed by a recent period of a returning to being a mouth-breather (I had been one previous to using CPAP gear with a nose mask), not solved by trying to add a chin strap. (A 4-day EEG for other problems revealed that I was not reaching stage 3-4 sleep.) I started using a full face mask last night, and slept 1 hour without it while sitting and watching TV, then 8 hours with it. The mask leaked, but not enough to disturb sleep or reduce effective pressure. Bottom line: this stuff can be difficult to get working well for you, but its use is essential if needed (I have two x-rays of my heart and various BP numbers and rhythm graphs to show what only three months on CPAP gear can do for the heart, let alone the brain…). Keep going with it, frustrating as it can be. Slow death by oxygen starvation and heart problems (or fast by clots or arrhythmias) is much less fun! Good luck with it! — David Ruether r…@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether

Response:

I’ve been doing CPAP for three months now and had a similar experience. I found myself sleeping relatively little and waking up (or at least feeling like I woke up) many times a night. Only recently has my sleep pattern begun to approach "normal" in the sense of long periods of unbroken sleep. My normal pattern now is to fall asleep between 10:30 and 11:00 PM, wake up after about an hour (at which point I may visit the bathroom), then fall back asleep fairly easily and sleep for another 5-1/2 or 6 hours. But that’s after it settled down after a couple of months. It may be more reassuring to focus on how you feel when you’re awake. If you’re not experiencing the symptoms (in my case, overwhelming sleepiness) that led you check about sleep apnea, you may well be OK and just live with it. One thing I found tremendously useful was a sound generator (think of a white noise generator, although my sound of choice is actually a thunderstorm). I couldn’t fall asleep from the "Darth Vader effect" of hearing my own breathing, and this masked it enough for me to relax. Good luck. Julian C. Lander "Cliff" wrote in message

news:dmbsf0tjec7dbrenu0v753f78betg5ghh1@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello all. > I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I > probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out > about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for > the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight > the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I > adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., > and am now sleeping very comfortably with it > The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 > hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke > up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the > time, but maybe not. > So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get > through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of > my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular > schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? > Thanks again.

Response:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:02 +0100, "Frankie" wrote: >Hi Cliff >Good to hear that you are mastering the beast >I had the same problem when I started out 7 months back. Slept like a log >for a 2 weeks and then wham would wake up in the early hours bright and >breezy and ready to take on the world. I often would take myself off >downstairs to watch a movie or use the computer… which isn’t good either! >Your body has to adjust to this new sleep routine especially if it has had >years of broken sleep patterns. I now get 7 hours sleep nightly with no >probs.

That’s encouraging. Right now it seems like adjusting to jet lag. I hope it only takes a few days.

Response:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 15:46:07 -0400, "Julian Lander" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: >I’ve been doing CPAP for three months now and had a >similar experience. I found myself sleeping relatively >little and waking up (or at least feeling like I woke up) >many times a night. >Only recently has my sleep pattern begun to approach >"normal" in the sense of long periods of unbroken sleep. >My normal pattern now is to fall asleep between 10:30 >and 11:00 PM, wake up after about an hour (at which >point I may visit the bathroom), then fall back asleep >fairly easily and sleep for another 5-1/2 or 6 hours. >But that’s after it settled down after a couple of months. >It may be more reassuring to focus on how you feel when >you’re awake. If you’re not experiencing the symptoms >(in my case, overwhelming sleepiness) that led you check >about sleep apnea, you may well be OK and just live >with it. >One thing I found tremendously useful was a sound >generator (think of a white noise generator, although >my sound of choice is actually a thunderstorm). I >couldn’t fall asleep from the "Darth Vader effect" >of hearing my own breathing, and this masked it enough >for me to relax. >Good luck. >Julian C. Lander

Right now I just wake up too early- wide awake. Then I have to decide whether and when to try to get back to sleep. If I can’t i’st frustrating, if I don’t try I know I’ll crap out later. Thanks for your comments. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Cliff" wrote in message >news:dmbsf0tjec7dbrenu0v753f78betg5ghh1@4ax.com… >> Hello all. >> I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I >> probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out >> about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for >> the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight >> the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I >> adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., >> and am now sleeping very comfortably with it >> The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >> hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >> up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >> time, but maybe not. >> So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get >> through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of >> my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular >> schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? >> Thanks again.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 17:31:01 -0400, Cliff wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 14:59:02 +0100, "Frankie" > wrote: >>Hi Cliff >>Good to hear that you are mastering the beast >>I had the same problem when I started out 7 months back. Slept like a log >>for a 2 weeks and then wham would wake up in the early hours bright and >>breezy and ready to take on the world. I often would take myself off >>downstairs to watch a movie or use the computer… which isn’t good either! >>Your body has to adjust to this new sleep routine especially if it has had >>years of broken sleep patterns. I now get 7 hours sleep nightly with no >>probs. >That’s encouraging. Right now it seems like adjusting to jet lag. I >hope it only takes a few days.

It is very similar to that, Cliff. In fact, there are a whole bunch of things that will tend to improve as a result of better oxygen levels and better sleep – most organs work better, for example. One of the first parts is repaying a sleep debt that has built up over many years. There are really three bits of advice for the coming weeks – Try to practice good sleep hygiene where you can, but don’t get hung up over it. – Don’t be too surprised if you have some plateaus or even setbacks in what happens – that’s very normal too. A kind of honeymoon effect is common when starting CPAP use. – Listen to what your body is saying and if you need to sleep do so, but if you don’t, then again, try not to become upset about it. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 10:24:02 +0100, Andy Hall wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >>Hello all. >> I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I >>probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out >>about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for >>the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight >>the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I >>adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., >>and am now sleeping very comfortably with it >>The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >>hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >>up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >>time, but maybe not. >This is very typical, Cliff. Your body had become used to 9 hours >of lousy sleep and 4 hours of decent sleep has replaced it. A week in >and this is not surprising at all. >>So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get >>through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of >>my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular >>schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? >Absolutely. Don’t be surprised if it takes several weeks to become >more normal. However, don’t get hung up on it because you don’t know >what "normal" is for you. It could be as little as 6 hours. >What I would recommend is to take a look at sleep hygiene (Google for >this or look at the archives of this group). There is a temptation, >because of the improved sleep quality, to be sloppy about this or push >the envelope. You mention caffeine and it would be an idea to cut >it a bit. Some people can experience effects of it a long way in >advance of their sleep time, so one recommendation is none after 8 in >the evening. It’s something to try out. >Try to take your time over changes that you make and do one at a time >to see what has an effect. >You may also find that (assuming you are in the northern hemisphere) >that you will wake relatively early as it gets light at this time of >year. >>Thanks again. >.andy >To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Thanks, Andy. I’ll look up the Sleep Hygiene

Response:

Todd I had same trouble as you.. Got a second mask,, The breeze with pillows. I can sleep on my side, hugging pillows… MUCH improvement.. don’t have to be "carefull’ of my positon , well not as much as a "normal" mask. Takes a few days to to get real comfortable with the nasal pillows, and correct size. Chuck On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 08:51:04 -0400, Todd Palino – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: >On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >>The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >>hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >>up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >>time, but maybe not. >OK, I just started (last night was my third night), and I’m having the >same problem. I go to bed about 11pm, and sleep soundly until about >2am, when I wake up. Then I spend the rest of the night tossing and >turning and not sleeping well until my alarm goes off at 6am. >Similar to what someone said in this thread already, I figure that >this is because my body is so used to getting 3 effective hours of >sleep because of the OSA that it needs time to adjust to getting 7 >hours of sleep (or whatever I settle out at). But my question is, >should I get up when I wake up at 2am, or should I go back to sleep? >Right now I’m staying in bed, but is that the quickest way to letting >my body adjust to the quality of sleep that I’m getting on CPAP? >Waking up doesn’t appear to be due to any external stimuli. The CPAP >is quiet enough (doesn’t bother me or my wife). My mask fits well and >is adjusted loosely. I have been sleeping the first part of the night >on my back (which is a chance from how I usually sleep), and falling >asleep quickly. I don’t move around once I’m asleep either. The room >temperature is stable, and I don’t need to go to the bathroom when I >wake up at 2. After I wake up, I end up trying to sleep on my back, >and can’t get to sleep. If I roll over onto my side or my stomach, I >have a hard time getting comfortable with the mask on and end up >sleeping, but not well. >I know that it’s going to take time to adjust to the CPAP, I just want >to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to help it along. >-Todd >Todd Palino > Website: http://bonkoif.com/ > Public Key: http://bonkoif.com/publickey.txt >Your excuse is: Route flapping at the NAP. >SpamBlock in place. Get rid of the "foobar" before you email me.

Response:

"Julian Lander" wrote in message

news:vN-dndJmfetjWmPdRVn-qA@comcast.com… > One thing I found tremendously useful was a sound > generator (think of a white noise generator, although > my sound of choice is actually a thunderstorm). I > couldn’t fall asleep from the "Darth Vader effect" > of hearing my own breathing, and this masked it enough > for me to relax.

I have the REMStar Plus, and I find that there is significantly less "darth vader" effect when I use the humidifier. It seems to me that the humidifier chamber acts as a kind of "muffler". Without the humidifier chamber in the path, my breathing just sounds much louder, and there is a resonance in the tubing. FWIW. Also, something else I found quite interesting. When I was first starting off, I tried a few different CPAP machines. I tried both the older Fisher & Paykel model, and the newer one. The newer one is very similar to the previous one, but it’s quieter. It did sound like the overall sound level emitted by the newer model was less, but part of sound contained a relatively distinct constant pitch – this pitch was quite audible over the other "white noise" sound of the machine. I much preferred the previous model, even though it’s noise level was greater – it had a very pleasant sound, which even helped to lull me to sleep. But I ended up getting the REMStar - for all intents & purposes it’s silent for me. One reason I went for it was the sake of my partner. (I didn’t want to bank on the audible Fisher & Paykel lulling her to sleep – it may have kept her awake instead ;^) But now I’m partner-less so it doesn’t matter anyway. LOL ;^) Greg.

Response:

Typical ‘adjustment’ takes several weeks. Focus on ‘is it working’ rather than ‘how many hours’. If daytime drowsiness, headaches, nocturia are reduced then it is working. regards, eric pearson nonono.ericp1.non…@nonono.fuse.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >Hello all. > I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I >probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out >about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for >the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight >the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I >adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., >and am now sleeping very comfortably with it >The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >time, but maybe not. >So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get >through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of >my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular >schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? >Thanks again.

Response:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >time, but maybe not.

OK, I just started (last night was my third night), and I’m having the same problem. I go to bed about 11pm, and sleep soundly until about 2am, when I wake up. Then I spend the rest of the night tossing and turning and not sleeping well until my alarm goes off at 6am. Similar to what someone said in this thread already, I figure that this is because my body is so used to getting 3 effective hours of sleep because of the OSA that it needs time to adjust to getting 7 hours of sleep (or whatever I settle out at). But my question is, should I get up when I wake up at 2am, or should I go back to sleep? Right now I’m staying in bed, but is that the quickest way to letting my body adjust to the quality of sleep that I’m getting on CPAP? Waking up doesn’t appear to be due to any external stimuli. The CPAP is quiet enough (doesn’t bother me or my wife). My mask fits well and is adjusted loosely. I have been sleeping the first part of the night on my back (which is a chance from how I usually sleep), and falling asleep quickly. I don’t move around once I’m asleep either. The room temperature is stable, and I don’t need to go to the bathroom when I wake up at 2. After I wake up, I end up trying to sleep on my back, and can’t get to sleep. If I roll over onto my side or my stomach, I have a hard time getting comfortable with the mask on and end up sleeping, but not well. I know that it’s going to take time to adjust to the CPAP, I just want to make sure that I’m doing everything I can to help it along. -Todd Todd Palino Website: http://bonkoif.com/ Public Key: http://bonkoif.com/publickey.txt Your excuse is: Route flapping at the NAP. SpamBlock in place. Get rid of the "foobar" before you email me.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Cliff" wrote in message news:kjpsf0hiib51i1dip0v73jsmetotl5553f@4ax.com… > On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:23:51 GMT, "David Ruether" > wrote: > >"Cliff" wrote in message news:dmbsf0tjec7dbrenu0v753f78betg5ghh1@4ax.com… > >> Hello all. > >> I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I > >> probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out > >> about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for > >> the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight > >> the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I > >> adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., > >> and am now sleeping very comfortably with it > >> The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 > >> hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke > >> up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the > >> time, but maybe not. > >> So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get > >> through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of > >> my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular > >> schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? > >I’m still dealing with this one, 7 months in… > >I went from 4.5 hrs/day to a bit more recently, > >but I think this is more due to the CPAP gear not > >working for me as well as it did (mouth-breathing, > >even with a strap, though for several months > >after starting, this was not a problem – I’m getting > >a full-face mask today…). Two doctors told me > >"needs vary, so 4.5 hours may be enough for you", > >but I don’t believe it. Also, a recent 4-day EEG > >revealed that I don’t get into stage 3-4 sleep… > >I don’t know what the answer is for getting more > >sleep, but 4 hours of good sleep is DEFINITELY > >better than 8-10 hours of oxygen-starved, often > >interrupted sleep (been there, done that! . > Seven months ? Ouch ! I read you were doing Ok but then something > changed that set you back. So far I have no mouth problems, as opening > my mouth causes this large noise and uncomfortable blowing sensation. > Even though I’m sure I breathed through my mouth before just to get > enough air, so far I don’t thinkit’s a problem keeping it closed. I > hope the mask change works for you.

Before I started out using CPAP, I was a "mouth-breather" at night (nose plugged upon hitting pillow). The CPAP gear seemed to clear this up (at least after I added a heated humidifier – with hose insulator), and my mouth stayed closed for the reasons you gave. Some time back, though, I seemed to stop being bothered by the feeling/sound of opening my mouth, and began losing the effectiveness of using the CPAP gear (though I do not sleep much while using it, and other problems that may have arisen due to OSA have not gone away – though some have, and my heart is in noticeably better condition). I’m still looking for more time asleep, and more late-stage sleep… Good luck with your use of the gear – it is necessary. — David Ruether r…@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether

Response:

Hi Cliff Good to hear that you are mastering the beast I had the same problem when I started out 7 months back. Slept like a log for a 2 weeks and then wham would wake up in the early hours bright and breezy and ready to take on the world. I often would take myself off downstairs to watch a movie or use the computer… which isn’t good either! Your body has to adjust to this new sleep routine especially if it has had years of broken sleep patterns. I now get 7 hours sleep nightly with no probs. — Frankie I used to be normal but didn’t like it. To Reply By E-Mail Remove ’MY SPLEEN’ http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea ————————————————————————- FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter http://mail.giantcompany.com "Cliff" wrote in message

Response:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 12:23:51 GMT, "David Ruether" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: >"Cliff" wrote in message news:dmbsf0tjec7dbrenu0v753f78betg5ghh1@4ax.com… >> Hello all. >> I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I >> probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out >> about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for >> the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight >> the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I >> adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., >> and am now sleeping very comfortably with it >> The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >> hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >> up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >> time, but maybe not. >> So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get >> through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of >> my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular >> schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? >I’m still dealing with this one, 7 months in… >I went from 4.5 hrs/day to a bit more recently, >but I think this is more due to the CPAP gear not >working for me as well as it did (mouth-breathing, >even with a strap, though for several months >after starting, this was not a problem – I’m getting >a full-face mask today…). Two doctors told me >"needs vary, so 4.5 hours may be enough for you", >but I don’t believe it. Also, a recent 4-day EEG >revealed that I don’t get into stage 3-4 sleep… >I don’t know what the answer is for getting more >sleep, but 4 hours of good sleep is DEFINITELY >better than 8-10 hours of oxygen-starved, often >interrupted sleep (been there, done that! .

Seven months ? Ouch ! I read you were doing Ok but then something changed that set you back. So far I have no mouth problems, as opening my mouth causes this large noise and uncomfortable blowing sensation. Even though I’m sure I breathed through my mouth before just to get enough air, so far I don’t thinkit’s a problem keeping it closed. I hope the mask change works for you.

Response:

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 05:04:31 -0400, Cliff wrote: >Hello all. > I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I >probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out >about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for >the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight >the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I >adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., >and am now sleeping very comfortably with it >The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 >hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke >up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the >time, but maybe not.

This is very typical, Cliff. Your body had become used to 9 hours of lousy sleep and 4 hours of decent sleep has replaced it. A week in and this is not surprising at all. >So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get >through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of >my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular >schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way?

Absolutely. Don’t be surprised if it takes several weeks to become more normal. However, don’t get hung up on it because you don’t know what "normal" is for you. It could be as little as 6 hours. What I would recommend is to take a look at sleep hygiene (Google for this or look at the archives of this group). There is a temptation, because of the improved sleep quality, to be sloppy about this or push the envelope. You mention caffeine and it would be an idea to cut it a bit. Some people can experience effects of it a long way in advance of their sleep time, so one recommendation is none after 8 in the evening. It’s something to try out. Try to take your time over changes that you make and do one at a time to see what has an effect. You may also find that (assuming you are in the northern hemisphere) that you will wake relatively early as it gets light at this time of year. >Thanks again.

.andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

Hello all. I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., and am now sleeping very comfortably with it The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the time, but maybe not. So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way? Thanks again.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Cliff" wrote in message news:dmbsf0tjec7dbrenu0v753f78betg5ghh1@4ax.com… > Hello all. > I started using the CPAP last week for severe obstructive Apnea. I > probably had this problem most of my adult life and just found out > about it. Better late than never! First, I’d like to thank you all for > the mask tips. Just like a newbie, I had the damn thing on too tight > the first two nights and was miserable. Thanks to your sharing, I > adjusted the mask properly so it loats on air, did the washing etc., > and am now sleeping very comfortably with it > The " bad news" is I’m now getting 4 hours of good sleep instead of 9 > hours of lousy sleep, but I am up at 5 am writing this because I woke > up at 2 and can’t get back to sleep . Better than being tired all the > time, but maybe not. > So maybe I have to cut back on all the caffeine I used to swill to get > through the day, but is there also a natural period of adjustment of > my sleep cycle that I have to go through until I get on a regular > schedule? Is this normal? Did it happen to any of you this way?

I’m still dealing with this one, 7 months in… I went from 4.5 hrs/day to a bit more recently, but I think this is more due to the CPAP gear not working for me as well as it did (mouth-breathing, even with a strap, though for several months after starting, this was not a problem – I’m getting a full-face mask today…). Two doctors told me "needs vary, so 4.5 hours may be enough for you", but I don’t believe it. Also, a recent 4-day EEG revealed that I don’t get into stage 3-4 sleep… I don’t know what the answer is for getting more sleep, but 4 hours of good sleep is DEFINITELY better than 8-10 hours of oxygen-starved, often interrupted sleep (been there, done that! . — David Ruether r…@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether

Response:

Does my GP lack knowledge ?

admin — Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

On 13 Aug 2003 17:21:48 GMT, Waldo Centini wrote: >My GP unfortunately misdiagnosed me as suffering from workrelated stress. >Only by accident I found out I had apnea. The next visit to my GP she >actually confessed not knowing a lot about apnea, but she left it to the >sleepexpert to take the appropriate measures.

I had one of my doctors (not one that would deal with an apnea problem) say to me: "I’ve never put a patient on a CPAP, but I do know that a number of my patients swear by them!" There may be others that swear AT them.

Response:

Is there any literature that I can show or prove to him? "eric" wrote in message

Response:

On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:00:38 GMT, Mark wrote: >Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night >sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related?

YES. As a general rule: Generalists, if they didn’t board in the past few years, are ignorant as the man in the street about sleep apnea. My internist told me "if you have a cold, and you can’t breathe through your nose, CALL. We’ll get you on something that WILL get your nose open!" (She boarded a few years ago.)

Response:

Mark surprised us with > This sucks. I just got another GP because the one I had since I was > youth just wanted me on meds. Oh, boy. .

My GP unfortunately misdiagnosed me as suffering from workrelated stress. Only by accident I found out I had apnea. The next visit to my GP she actually confessed not knowing a lot about apnea, but she left it to the sleepexpert to take the appropriate measures. On a visit after that, she had read up on apnea, and was very knowledgeable about it. To get a GP like that is worth the bother of changing GPs. — Waldo *** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me *** To respond through email remove removespam

Response:

Mark, I will try to assemble some citations for you. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:57:25 GMT, "Mark" wrote: >Is there any literature that I can show or prove to him? >"eric" wrote in message >news:77hijvcrcm0ikas65qikto9jm6815puf78@4ax.com… >| Your doc does not know apnea. >| Classic symptoms are night sweats, nocturia, >| and daytime drowsiness. Insist upon a referral to a sleep doc. >| >| The way the machine works is that the pressure ‘blows’ your airway >| open, much like when you inflate a baloon. >| >| regards, >| eric pearson

Response:

This sucks. I just got another GP because the one I had since I was youth just wanted me on meds. Oh, boy. . "Waldo Centini" wrote in message

news:Xns93D62B9FC27Waldo@130.133.1.4… | Mark surprised us with | | > I don’t know. The other day I went to see my doctor. A week earlier, I | > took this machine home to measure my oxygen and heart rate. I didnt | > sleep weel that night because of this machine. Apparently, I do have, | > mild sleep apnea. However, if the machine reported mild when I indeed | > know I hardly slept at all, then I probably have more than a mild case. | > | > Anyhow, I have been having chronic nightsweats and Gastric Acid Reflux | > disease for a long time. All the blood work and tests show no known | > cause of the the nightsweats. The nightsweats started about the same | > time as the reflux. | > | > I had a post a few months back and it was the opinion of many here that | > nightsweats can be attributed to sleep apnea. I asked my GP about this | > and he replied, no they are NOT related at all. Next week I go back to | > the specialist. | > | > Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night | > sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related? | > | > Also, if I have to get a machine for sleep apnea, what does it actually | > do? Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how? | > | | Advice: get specialist help, preferably from a sleepexpert. Get another GP | as well. | | — | Waldo | | | *** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me *** | To respond through email remove removespam

Response:

Your doc does not know apnea. Classic symptoms are night sweats, nocturia, and daytime drowsiness. Insist upon a referral to a sleep doc. The way the machine works is that the pressure ‘blows’ your airway open, much like when you inflate a baloon. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:00:38 GMT, "Mark" wrote: >I don’t know. The other day I went to see my doctor. A week earlier, I >took this machine home to measure my oxygen and heart rate. I didnt sleep >weel that night because of this machine. Apparently, I do have, mild sleep >apnea. However, if the machine reported mild when I indeed know I hardly >slept at all, then I probably have more than a mild case. >Anyhow, I have been having chronic nightsweats and Gastric Acid Reflux >disease for a long time. All the blood work and tests show no known cause >of the the nightsweats. The nightsweats started about the same time as the >reflux. >I had a post a few months back and it was the opinion of many here that >nightsweats can be attributed to sleep apnea. I asked my GP about this and >he replied, no they are NOT related at all. Next week I go back to the >specialist. >Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night >sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related? >Also, if I have to get a machine for sleep apnea, what does it actually do? >Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how?

Response:

"NormC" wrote in message

news:3F38A624.5010509@socal.rr.com… | | You didn’t sleep well, with a sensor on your finger, connected to | a battery operated box, laying next to you in bed? Yes. | | First of all, you are off to a bad start. The ‘machine’ is | called a recording finger oximeter. It measures your pulse rate | and blood oxygen saturation level while you are sleeping. It | does not measure/check for sleep apnea. If your oxy sat levels | show low, they often deduce that you have sleep apnea, but there | is no way to know if you have obstructional sleep apnea or | central sleep apnea. | | If you have a sleep disorder of any type, you need to have a | full/complete polysomnogram in an fully equipped sleep lab. This | will ‘report’ what you have and don’t have. The waiting list is over one year. | | | Well… what did he tell you they were from? How many sleep | apnea patients does he have? Does he, himself, have sleep apnea? | If not, who do you think is in a better position to tell you | their experiences than those with sleep apnea and night sweats? He doesn’t know….which pisses me off. He’s suppose to be a really good doctor. | | > Next week I go back to the | > specialist. | | What kind of specialist? He needs to be a diplomated sleep doc. No, nothing like that….an internal medicine specialist who had me use the oximeter | > Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night | > sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related? Hmm, good questions. I will ask this of the internist! | I’ve read here that untreated apnea can evidently cause night | sweats and acid reflux. Those reporting this have also reported | that both got better or went away when treated with CPAP. I | believe them. Most doctors that are not diplomated sleep doctors | don’t know sh*t about sleep disorders. This is at least comforting…at least knowing is better than not knowing. | | YOu’d better start realizing that there are two kinds of sleep | apnea, obstructive and central. For OSA, it provides continuous | positive air pressure (CPAP) through your nose that keeps your | airway(s) ’splinted’ open. CA requires an entirely different, | much more complex, machine. | | And if you are diagnosed with OSA (which can’t be done with a | finger oximeter), you will need to be manually titrated in a | fully equipped lab to determine the pressure required. | | > Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how?

Response:

Mark surprised us with – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I don’t know. The other day I went to see my doctor. A week earlier, I > took this machine home to measure my oxygen and heart rate. I didnt > sleep weel that night because of this machine. Apparently, I do have, > mild sleep apnea. However, if the machine reported mild when I indeed > know I hardly slept at all, then I probably have more than a mild case. > Anyhow, I have been having chronic nightsweats and Gastric Acid Reflux > disease for a long time. All the blood work and tests show no known > cause of the the nightsweats. The nightsweats started about the same > time as the reflux. > I had a post a few months back and it was the opinion of many here that > nightsweats can be attributed to sleep apnea. I asked my GP about this > and he replied, no they are NOT related at all. Next week I go back to > the specialist. > Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night > sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related? > Also, if I have to get a machine for sleep apnea, what does it actually > do? Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how?

Advice: get specialist help, preferably from a sleepexpert. Get another GP as well. — Waldo *** Is This A Dead Parrot I See Before Me *** To respond through email remove removespam

Response:

I don’t know. The other day I went to see my doctor. A week earlier, I took this machine home to measure my oxygen and heart rate. I didnt sleep weel that night because of this machine. Apparently, I do have, mild sleep apnea. However, if the machine reported mild when I indeed know I hardly slept at all, then I probably have more than a mild case. Anyhow, I have been having chronic nightsweats and Gastric Acid Reflux disease for a long time. All the blood work and tests show no known cause of the the nightsweats. The nightsweats started about the same time as the reflux. I had a post a few months back and it was the opinion of many here that nightsweats can be attributed to sleep apnea. I asked my GP about this and he replied, no they are NOT related at all. Next week I go back to the specialist. Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related? Also, if I have to get a machine for sleep apnea, what does it actually do? Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how?

Response:

Mark wrote: > I don’t know. The other day I went to see my doctor. A week earlier, I > took this machine home to measure my oxygen and heart rate. I didnt sleep > weel that night because of this machine.

You didn’t sleep well, with a sensor on your finger, connected to a battery operated box, laying next to you in bed? > Apparently, I do have, mild sleep > apnea. However, if the machine reported mild when I indeed know I hardly > slept at all, then I probably have more than a mild case.

First of all, you are off to a bad start. The ‘machine’ is called a recording finger oximeter. It measures your pulse rate and blood oxygen saturation level while you are sleeping. It does not measure/check for sleep apnea. If your oxy sat levels show low, they often deduce that you have sleep apnea, but there is no way to know if you have obstructional sleep apnea or central sleep apnea. If you have a sleep disorder of any type, you need to have a full/complete polysomnogram in an fully equipped sleep lab. This will ‘report’ what you have and don’t have. > Anyhow, I have been having chronic nightsweats and Gastric Acid Reflux > disease for a long time. All the blood work and tests show no known cause > of the the nightsweats. The nightsweats started about the same time as the > reflux. > I had a post a few months back and it was the opinion of many here that > nightsweats can be attributed to sleep apnea. I asked my GP about this and > he replied, no they are NOT related at all.

Well… what did he tell you they were from? How many sleep apnea patients does he have? Does he, himself, have sleep apnea? If not, who do you think is in a better position to tell you their experiences than those with sleep apnea and night sweats? > Next week I go back to the > specialist.

What kind of specialist? He needs to be a diplomated sleep doc. > Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night > sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related?

I’ve read here that untreated apnea can evidently cause night sweats and acid reflux. Those reporting this have also reported that both got better or went away when treated with CPAP. I believe them. Most doctors that are not diplomated sleep doctors don’t know sh*t about sleep disorders. > Also, if I have to get a machine for sleep apnea, what does it actually do?

YOu’d better start realizing that there are two kinds of sleep apnea, obstructive and central. For OSA, it provides continuous positive air pressure (CPAP) through your nose that keeps your airway(s) ’splinted’ open. CA requires an entirely different, much more complex, machine. And if you are diagnosed with OSA (which can’t be done with a finger oximeter), you will need to be manually titrated in a fully equipped lab to determine the pressure required. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how?

Response:

"Mark" wrote in message

news:ao%Za.8265$Rm1.2358@edtnps84… > I don’t know. The other day I went to see my doctor. A week earlier, I > took this machine home to measure my oxygen and heart rate. I didnt sleep > weel that night because of this machine. Apparently, I do have, mild sleep > apnea. However, if the machine reported mild when I indeed know I hardly > slept at all, then I probably have more than a mild case.

It is not possible to properly diagnose sleep apnoea with this form of ‘home test’. There is only one way to diagnose sleep apnoea, that is with a full overnight polysomnogram (sleep study) in a properly equipped sleep laboratory or clinic. There are no short cuts. > Anyhow, I have been having chronic nightsweats and Gastric Acid Reflux > disease for a long time. All the blood work and tests show no known cause > of the the nightsweats. The nightsweats started about the same time as the > reflux. > I had a post a few months back and it was the opinion of many here that > nightsweats can be attributed to sleep apnea. I asked my GP about this and > he replied, no they are NOT related at all. Next week I go back to the > specialist.

There is a very strong belief that they can be related. To say categorically that they are not related is stupid. > Does anyone have an expert opinion on whether any of the three [night > sweats, sleep apnea, acid reflux] are related?

Not an expert opinion, but if they are not related to sleep apnoea, what are they related to………..ask your doctor. > Also, if I have to get a machine for sleep apnea, what does it actually do? > Will it prevent me from not breathing, if so, how?

You should not accept a CPAP machine without a full polysomnogram, followed by a titration study. The titration is to determine the correct pressure for the CPAP machine…………or rather the correct pressure to stop the apnoea events. The idea if the CPAP machine is to use an airflow at a predet ermined pressure (titration) to splint your airway open thereby preventing collapse or obstruction. It improves the quality of your breathing during sleep. I think you need to have a long chat with your doctor. Is he qualified to deal with sleep disorders ? Be very careful. Dan. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Quackpot Baratz Goes On Trial

admin — Sun, 29 Jun 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

And, I recevied it, too, before I lost the old Hotmail account.

Like all spam, I have a copy in my archives. (And, let me tell you, the only thing that makes those archives possible is the fact that hard drive capacity increases even faster than spam!) — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end

Response:

Since Baratz is one of the Barrett team, that automatically makes him OK and you aren’t interested in WHY he is going to court. Neither were you. He was in court as an expert witness and was being cross examined, not tried for anything, either civil or criminal. Of course, you just wanted to trash him, so you posted Bolen’s diatribe without even bothering to understand it. How do I know you did not under stand it? Look at the subject of this thread, and then read the diatribe. See how Bolen does mention that Baratz will be cross examined.

You’re leaping to assumptions here. It’s quite possible that Jan understood what was going on and chose her subject line deliberately. Jan? Did you understand what Bolen wrote? — | Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make | | it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay | | for new products or new versions of existing products." | end

Response:

And? Still waiting for confirmation of what Peter stated. You aren’t?? You just believe anything Peter states without question?? However, Peter, I can’t completely trust you with the truth either. Where did you get your information? That was the SUBJECT LINE of the email. I got one too.

Tsu And? However, Peter, I can’t completely trust you with the truth either. Where did you get your information?

Still waiting for confirmation of what Peter stated. You aren’t?? You just believe anything Peter states without question?? Jan

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – As I said, he is scum, and there are only one or two people on this list who would feel this latest bit of his invective is worthy of repetition.. You know who they are. Peter Moran The irony is the one who did so is always trumpeting the evil of personal bashing or trashing. I guess all is fair when it is someone you agree with. T Once again, as usual, you have no idea what you are talking about. What you have proven is YOU are guilty of exactly what you accuse me of. As long a Baratz is a part of the Barrett team, you don’t even want to know WHY he is going to court. As for Peter Moran, (who posted this to the dental group also) Here is his history. Do tell us Tony, do you see any of the things Peter couldn’t?? (watch for no reply from Tony, who is a dentist and a member of ye good ole boy and girl club) Here is a reply for Jan… I have you blocked as you are a waste of time.

Uh huh. Translation: I refuse to answer, it would be a transgression to the good ole boy and girl club. This is a good example of why.

Sure it is!! This wasn’t abot Peter..

Sure it was, it was about his post. .it was about YOU passing along a personal attack on someone you fucking hypocrite.

Oh my,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Do not once again show us your professional behavior Tony! Do I "bash" you…sure I do. You deserve it.

Translation: Jan posts the risks of mercury amalgams. It upsets my belief system. You, on the other hand, constantly call other out for doing so,

I do indeed call peoples’ lies and their deliberate bashing, plus vulgar language. yet when it works to your benefit, you jump right on the same bandwagon

What is working to my benefit?? That, is what is called being a hypocrite.

Well, no that is an opinion. I am not a member of any good old boy club.

Now, there is a whopper. As one of the dentists who LIES himself, he also LIES for his buddies. I have the knowledge to tell truth from fiction

Sure you do. You have clearly demonstrated you do not. T

What are you doing over here anyway Tony???? Deal with this truth, and get past the fiction of the safety of amalgams. http://www.amalgam.org./ http://www.nap.edu/books/0309071402/html/ http://www.epa.gov/ost/criteria/methylmercury/ http://www.epa.gov/ost/criteria/methylmercury/ http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1996/Suppl-2/watanabe.html http://www.health.state.mn.us/divs/eh/esa/hra/fishfact/methylme.html http://sofia.usgs.gov/projects/bact_demeth/ http://www.ulaval.ca/vrr/rech/Proj/69389.html http://www.cspinet.org/foodsafety/methylmerc_limit.html http://www.altcorp.com/amalgam.htm http://www.algonet.se/~leif/FUSCIFCT.html http://www.asomat.com/mercury/Relevant-facts-about-amalgam.htm http://ehpnet1.niehs.nih.gov/docs/1999/107p587-591grandjean/abstract…. http://www.academyfornaturalhealth.com/amalgamfill.htm http://www.bioprobe.com/reviews.asp?review_id=11 http://www.skeptics.com.au/features/weird/media/mw-dentalamalgam.htm http://www.geocities.com/toothk/breiner.html http://emporium.turnpike.net/P/PDHA/mercury/asr.htm http://www.sevaonline.com/English/RechUK.htm http://www.iadr-dentalfaculty.org/plenary/plenary2/00000040.htm http://www.whale.to/d/wantling.htm http://www.cco.net/~trufax/mercury/merc1.html http://www.u-net.com/four-d/mercury.htm http://www.msnbc.com/news/599087.asp#BODY http://www.yourhealthbase.com/amalgams.html http://www.holisticdental.org/index.html http://home.online.no/~reiersol/classact.htm http://www.icnr.securesites.com/hhnewsl.html http://www.cfsn.com/ADArebut.html http://www.thorne.com/townsend/oct/mercury.html http://vest.gu.se/~bosse/yrBOF93a.html http://www.toxicteeth.net http://www.lichtenberg.dk/symptoms_before_and_after_proper.htm http://bcn.net/~stoll/archives/mercury/15063.html http://www.web-light.nl/AMALGAM/amalgam.html http://www.web-light.nl/AMALGAM/amalgam.html http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2001/may2001_report_mercury_1.html http://www.web-light.nl/AMALGAM/EN/enmframe.html http://www.zipworld.com.au/~rgammal/AmalgamFrameSet.htm http://www.zipworld.com.au/~rgammal/AmalgamFrameSet.htm http://www.selene.com/healthlink/amalgam.html http://www.earthtym.net/merc-tox.htm http://www.asomat.com./ http://www.geocities.com/pamshelpline/mercuryfillings.htm http://ehis.niehs.nih.gov/topic/heavymetal.html http://www.gumshield.com/history/dental_fill.html http://www.heart-disease-bypass-surgery.com/data/articles/63.htm http://www.u-net.com/four-d/cfs.htm http://www.health.gov/environment/amalgam1/appendixIII.htm http://www.lichtenberg.dk/experience_after_amalgam_removal.htm http://www.positivehealth.com/permit/Articles/Dentistry/burrow45.htm http://www.notdoctors.com/mercfill.html http://www.whale.to/d/cancer.html http://www.ephca.com/ci&cme.htm http://www.cco.net/~trufax/reports/merceff.html http://www.holisticmed.com/dental/amalgam/child.html http://www.geocities.com/toothk/bernieref1.html http://www.talkinternational.com/TTCHPTR9.htm http://www.bioprobe.com/faq.asp http://www.mercury-free.com/ http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/periodon.html http://www.zipworld.com.au/~rgammal/Are_Dentist_Really_Healthy.html http://www.medical library.net/specialties/framer.html?/specialties/_biological_and_mercury_f ree_dentistry.html http://www.home.earthlink.net/~berniew1/indexa.html http://www.ariplex.com/ama/amatalbo.htm http://www.ariplex.com/ama/amatalbo.htm http://www.bhoffcomp.com/coping/amalgam.html http://www.amalgam.ukgo.com/talbot82.htm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The original expert witness was going to be Dr John Renner, but unfortunately he died. For Bolen to claim that Dr Baratz is "on trial" is what is known in technical terms as "a lie". Well if he did indeed, then shame on him!! Yes he did: that was the SUBJECT LINE of the email. I got one too. And? Still waiting for confirmation of what Peter stated. You aren’t?? You just believe anything Peter states without question?? However, Peter, I can’t completely trust you with the truth either. Where did you get your information? That was the SUBJECT LINE of the email. I got one too. Tsu And? However, Peter, I can’t completely trust you with the truth either. Where did you get your information? Still waiting for confirmation of what Peter stated. You aren’t?? You just believe anything Peter states without question??

Jan, the confirmation of what Peter said is in Bolen’s article. From Bolen’s original: "The attorney for Kadile in the Wisconsin case, Frank Recker, is prepared. He’s had the use of a Private Investigator, expert researchers, competent Doctors and Scientists, other attorneys who have defeated Baratz, other cases and depositions, mental health professionals, and MY files. On July 14th, 15th, and 16th, little Bobbie gets *cross-examined* ONLY on his credibility. Believe me, his mental health will be an issue." Note that he is specifically referring to the Kadile case, where Kadile is the defendant, not Baratz. Thus the subject line is a lie. If it came from Bolen, then you know who lied.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Since Baratz is one of the Barrett team, that automatically makes him OK and you aren’t interested in WHY he is going to court. Neither were you. He was in court as an expert witness and was being cross examined, not tried for anything, either civil or criminal. Of course, you just wanted to trash him, so you posted Bolen’s diatribe without even bothering to understand it. How do I know you did not under stand it? Look at the subject of this thread, and then read the diatribe. See how Bolen does mention that Baratz will be cross examined. You’re leaping to assumptions here. It’s quite possible that Jan understood what was going on and chose her subject line deliberately. Jan? Did you understand what Bolen wrote?

Bolen’s hyperbole probably got in her way.

Response:

Old story Jan ….. No one here is interested ….. Really … .this is the dental newsgroup!

– Joel M. Eichen, D.D.S. Philadelphia PA www.phillyducks.com We

Nocturia ?

admin — Wed, 19 Mar 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Does an increase in carb conxumption cause an increase in night time need to void? If anyone knows, please explain. TIA:

It could, if you are eating so many carbs that your BG is high. — Type 2 http://users.bestweb.net/~jbove/ Julie Bove, posting from new account

Response:

Does an increase in carb conxumption cause an increase in night time need to void? If anyone knows, please explain. TIA: randee — To respond remove "nospam" from my address.

Hi Randee. Excessive or frequent need to urinate after going to bed is most often related to ecessive fluid intake. Other causes include congestive heart failure, uncontrolled diabetes, urinary tract infections, prostate disease and impaired kidney function. Diuretices can also cause nocturia. If nocturia is of recent developement, try reducing your fluid intake two or three hours before bed. When excessive fluid is the culprit there is generally notable relief within a few days of reducing fluid intake in the evenings. If you don’t notice any relief of the nocturia within three to four days, it is time to see the doc. Speaking directly to uncontrolled diabetes as a cause… How are your bg’s running? That is the greater indicater of how much of the nocturia is atributed to directely to the diabetes. Marie, Caretaker Mom T2 Dx 3/2002

Response:

Does an increase in carb conxumption cause an increase in night time need to void? If anyone knows, please explain. TIA: randee — To respond remove "nospam" from my address.

Well, conventiobnal wisdom suggests that an increase in bg levels will cause increased urine output, so a higher carb input certainly could do so. I would suspect that carb input would have to be high enough to send your bg into abnormal level for the effect to be felt. Suggestion: take a bg reading just before going to bed. Maybe that would be a clue. Speaking only for myself, Joe Durusau

Response:

BG has to go above an individual’s "renal threshold" (usually somewhere between 180 and 220 mg/dl) before glucose appears in the urine at all, and it has to be higher than that for a prolonged period before the "spillage" results in increased urination due to osmotic effects. In addition to measuring BG before going to bed, it might also be a good idea to occasionally wake oneself up in the middle of the night and measure it then. It’s also important to distinguish between frequent urination due to a large volume of urine being produced, and frequent urination due to getting a strong urge to urinate when the bladder doesn’t seem all that full. They have different sets of causes.

Response:

Does an increase in carb conxumption cause an increase in night time need to void? If anyone knows, please explain. TIA: randee — To respond remove "nospam" from my address.

Response:

Paresthesia

admin — Sun, 22 Dec 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

there is such a thing a BENIGN irregular heart beat…me knows, cause me got one! Same here. I’ve got what’s called PVC’s, or pre-ventricular contractions. My doc says it occurs among about 12 percent of the population, and most are completely unaware they have it.

I knew we were meant for each other, I have too Mary (not a word to Spouse)

Response:

Please don’t hate to differ, that is the whole point of discussion. It would be a bit pointless if we all agreed all the time, or if we failed to put our viewpoint for fear someone might not agree with it.

Hurrah! I am pleased to be corrected if I get things wrong.

Hm. But when did that last happen on this ng? Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Tim

Response:

but your husband may have a NON-benign irregular heart rhythm when he catches on to your mischief!

Response:

Mary, does Erik know you are kissing up to Tim?

Response:

but your husband may have a NON-benign irregular heart rhythm when he catches on to your mischief!

Done that, been there, he had his heart attack in 1984. He’s much more laid back since then. And he knows about all my mischiefs, I tell him everything. So don’t blather your secrets on here )))) Mary

Response:

Mary, does Erik know you are kissing up to Tim?

Erik is very understanding. He’d kiss up to Tim if he had the opportunity When Erik comes to Yorkshire I’ll take him to see Tim even though he lives at the other side of the hill. Those pictures should be interesting! Mary

Response:

I have seen Erik’s photo…or what he purports is HIS photo…looks like Tom Selleck. on this side of the pond, that ain’t bad.

| | Mary, does Erik know you are kissing up to Tim? | | Erik is very understanding. He’d kiss up to Tim if he had the opportunity | | | When Erik comes to Yorkshire I’ll take him to see Tim even though he lives | at the other side of the hill. Those pictures should be interesting! | | Mary | | |

Response:

Also because of the frequent vomiting, maybe there are other vitamin and/or other nutrient deficiencies as well–i.e. B vitamins or others? Can you ask to speak with a nutritionist through your health care plan?

I can and have, and the nutritionist can’t get past the frequent vomiting. They are trying their hardest not to put me in the hospital, but I really just need to be on IV everything. — Aloha, Catharine Character is what you do when no one’s watching.

Response:

Mary, does Erik know you are kissing up to Tim? Erik is very understanding. He’d kiss up to Tim if he had the opportunity

LOL Now lets get one thing straight. I don’t do tongues! Tim

Response:

So you symptoms fall in this catagory…what is your actual K

It was 2.5 at today’s visit to the emergency room. Not content to suffer just the paresthesia, my hands and feet have started to curl up. I’ll start feeling weird and suddenly my thumb will curl under the palm of my hand. Then my whole hand cramps into a weird pointing position. This is on both sides. I wen to the ER yesterday when this happened. It was awful. I had that buzzing pins and needles sensation all over me, my face was stiff and I couldn’t talk well, my hands were drawn up to my chest like a fetus’s, and they HURT. Got K and other fluids yesterday, and then the same damn thing happened today. At least I knew what was happening today and I wasn’t as scared. — Aloha, Catharine Character is what you do when no one’s watching.

Response:

Tom Selleck’s hair is the wrong color. YOU can do no wrong.

| | I have seen Erik’s photo…or what he purports is HIS photo…looks like Tom | Selleck. on this side of the pond, that ain’t bad. | | Now, now. Let’s not exaggerate. | | My hair’s the wrong color. | | |

Response:

I have seen Erik’s photo…or what he purports is HIS photo…looks like Tom Selleck. on this side of the pond, that ain’t bad.

No idea who Tom selleck is. I’d love to continue this but it’s half past midnight, we’ve been working hard, physically, most of the day and I must go to bed. Nothing personal! Mary (where did you see Erik’s pic?)

Response:

Tom Selleck is a friend of Michelle Pfeiffer. Wouldn’t you like to know about that photo???

Response:

(secrets) I wish I had some. My life is calm and peaceful, if you overlook my baseball team’s having traded away some of my favorite players in recent sad days.

Well, never mind, you never know what’s coming to you Mary

Response:

I wish I had some. My life is calm and peaceful, if you overlook my baseball team’s having traded away some of my favorite players in recent sad days.

| but your husband may have a NON-benign irregular heart rhythm when he | catches on to your mischief! | | Done that, been there, he had his heart attack in 1984. He’s much more laid | back since then. | | And he knows about all my mischiefs, I tell him everything. | | So don’t blather your secrets on here )))) | | Mary | |

Response:

I thought PVC had to do with plumbing. aint’ we special, in that 12%

| | there is such a thing a BENIGN irregular heart beat…me knows, cause me got | one! | | Same here. I’ve got what’s called PVC’s, or pre-ventricular | contractions. | | My doc says it occurs among about 12 percent of the population, and | most are completely unaware they have it. |

Response:

Gosh Catharine, sorry to hear that you are having these difficulties. Maybe it is related to something like low potassium as Alex suggested. If that is the case, Potassium supplements would be helpful. Also because of the frequent vomiting, maybe there are other vitamin and/or other nutrient deficiencies as well–i.e. B vitamins or others? Can you ask to speak with a nutritionist through your health care plan? My best thoughts and prayers are with you. {{{Hugs}}}

Response:

there is such a thing a BENIGN irregular heart beat…me knows, cause me got one!

| You said: | "I had always assumed that the suddenness of a | stroke reflected a sudden change in blood flow, but this is not the case, | the ischemic event is a local snap-action (positive feedback) resulting from | a gradual change in outside chemistry, rather like a cramp | | "One thing I learnt from my father having TIA’s (mini-strokes) is that the | symptoms of stroke are due to the chemistry, and not directly due to | thrombosis. His TIA’s happened because an erratic heart was not delivering | enough blood to the brain" | | I hate to beg to differ | A TIA is a mechanical event that can lead to a stroke | – a true are caused by a blood clot temporarily reducing blood flow to the | brain, disappear when blood flow resumes. There are many symptoms that maybe | similar, such as seizure, low blood sygar or Bell’s Palsy which are not TIA | or strokes." | TIA ( or stroke) | Besides the symptoms: | Computed tomography (CT) scan of the head | Cerebral computed tomography scans are done to check for bleeding in the | brain when symptoms of a TIA are occurring and to check for evidence of | stroke or other disease, such as a tumor. | Using a CT scan, doctors can determine whether symptoms were actually caused | by a stroke that had short-lived symptoms. A TIA will not be seen on a CT | scan. | Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) | After the first 24 hours, magnetic resonance imaging can identify the exact | size and location of the area affected by a stroke. | MRI can identify small strokes better than a CT scan. | MRI and CT test results must be compared with your symptoms and are not a | substitute for a good physical evaluation. Further tests are often done to | identify the underlying cause of the TIA. If hardening of the carotid | arteries is suspected, the following tests may be done. | | Doppler ultrasound | Magnetic resonance angiography (MRA) | Angiography of the head and neck | | A TIA is a mechanical event that can lead to a stroke. | | The description you gave- I could attribute AFTER the clot occurs and the | tissue is ischemic is a condition in which oxygen deprivation occurs in the | brain. | Low blood flow does not equal the symptoms you stated…..in fac the | opposite happens….when a rapid shift of blood flow occurs, such as an | acute bleed the blood pressure tends to go up befure it bottoms out, and if | effect the whole brain not one area. | | I can’t speak to your father’s cause but the medical literature is well | documunted that irregalur heart rate leads to TIA ans stroke, due the blood | that coagulates in the ventricular in the heart that travel to the | brain…..that is why they often try to regulate the heart or thin the blood | after one to these events. | Alex | | |

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You said: "I had always assumed that the suddenness of a stroke reflected a sudden change in blood flow, but this is not the case, the ischemic event is a local snap-action (positive feedback) resulting from a gradual change in outside chemistry, rather like a cramp "One thing I learnt from my father having TIA’s (mini-strokes) is that the symptoms of stroke are due to the chemistry, and not directly due to thrombosis. His TIA’s happened because an erratic heart was not delivering enough blood to the brain" I hate to beg to differ A TIA is a mechanical event that can lead to a stroke – a true are caused by a blood clot temporarily reducing blood flow to the brain, disappear when blood flow resumes. I can’t speak to your father’s cause but the medical literature is well documunted that irregalur heart rate leads to TIA ans stroke, due the blood that coagulates in the ventricular in the heart that travel to the brain. Alex

I don’t claim to have researched this, and that advice only came from a single source. The explanation I was given at the time went into rather more detail but that was the gist of it. (Now I have two explanations.) Certainly in his case, whatever the mechanism, fitting a pacemaker cured the problem, and identifying the TIAs among numerous other symptoms led to the diagnosis which probably ’saved’ his life at that time. Please don’t hate to differ, that is the whole point of discussion. It would be a bit pointless if we all agreed all the time, or if we failed to put our viewpoint for fear someone might not agree with it. I am pleased to be corrected if I get things wrong. Tim

Response:

You said: "I had always assumed that the suddenness of a stroke reflected a sudden change in blood flow, but this is not the case, the ischemic event is a local snap-action (positive feedback) resulting from a gradual change in outside chemistry, rather like a cramp "One thing I learnt from my father having TIA’s (mini-strokes) is that the symptoms of stroke are due to the chemistry, and not directly due to thrombosis. His TIA’s happened because an erratic heart was not delivering enough blood to the brain" I hate to beg to differ A TIA is a mechanical event that can lead to a stroke – a true are caused by a blood clot temporarily reducing blood flow to the brain, disappear when blood flow resumes. There are many symptoms that maybe similar, such as seizure, low blood sygar or Bell’s Palsy which are not TIA or strokes." TIA ( or stroke) Besides the symptoms: Computed tomography (CT) scan of the head Cerebral computed tomography scans are done to check for bleeding in the brain when symptoms of a TIA are occurring and to check for evidence of stroke or other disease, such as a tumor. Using a CT scan, doctors can determine whether symptoms were actually caused by a stroke that had short-lived symptoms. A TIA will not be seen on a CT scan. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) After the first 24 hours, magnetic resonance imaging can identify the exact size and location of the area affected by a stroke. MRI can identify small strokes better than a CT scan. MRI and CT test results must be compared with your symptoms and are not a substitute for a good physical evaluation. Further tests are often done to identify the underlying cause of the TIA. If hardening of the carotid arteries is suspected, the following tests may be done. Doppler ultrasound Magnetic resonance angiography (MRA) Angiography of the head and neck A TIA is a mechanical event that can lead to a stroke. The description you gave- I could attribute AFTER the clot occurs and the tissue is ischemic is a condition in which oxygen deprivation occurs in the brain. Low blood flow does not equal the symptoms you stated…..in fac the opposite happens….when a rapid shift of blood flow occurs, such as an acute bleed the blood pressure tends to go up befure it bottoms out, and if effect the whole brain not one area. I can’t speak to your father’s cause but the medical literature is well documunted that irregalur heart rate leads to TIA ans stroke, due the blood that coagulates in the ventricular in the heart that travel to the brain…..that is why they often try to regulate the heart or thin the blood after one to these events. Alex

Response:

Hypokalemian ( Low K). Common symptoms include the following: Palpitations Skeletal muscle weakness or cramping Paralysis, paresthesias Constipation Nausea or vomiting Abdominal cramping Polyuria, nocturia, or polydipsia Psychosis, delirium, or hallucinations Depression Physical: Findings may include the following: Signs of ileus Hypotension Ventricular arrhythmias Cardiac arrest Bradycardia or tachycardia Premature atrial or ventricular beats Hypoventilation, respiratory distress Respiratory failure Lethargy or other mental status changes Decreased muscle strength, fasciculations, or tetany Decreased tendon reflexes Cushingoid appearance (eg, edema) So you symptoms fall in this catagory…what is your actual K ( potassium). Having fluids at home sounds like a good idea..in my neck of the woods it would be an automatic approval. Happy Holidays, and I agree you are SUPER Alec

Response:

Bummer ! and, if I sit upright and try to touch my chin to my chest, I get it in a fan shape at the base of my spine.

Well, parathesia – potassium isn’t mentioned here http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/003206.htm I’m sure some of the causes mentioned there are applicable, but do not ignore the one I constantly go on about. Vit-B12 Also Medline came up with "bone changes" (referring to osteoporosis, but imagine you are having bone changes?? ). Are you a plant? (just kidding but that’s mostly what comes up on ‘net searches, so lets’ look at one). http://www.collateralworks.com/doctoroptimara/diagnosis/potassiumdefi… The most common cause of Potassium Deficiency is either a lack of available potassium in the soil or a pH imbalance in the soil which inhibits the absorption of all nutrients. Potassium Deficiency may also be caused by an excess of calcium or magnesium.Short of sending your plant to a laboratory for testing, you will probably have to be satisfied with simply knowing that your African Violet suffers a nutritional imbalance without knowing the exact elements involved.

Response:

I suppose it does sound like some sort of electrolyte problem. The moving about and the range of locations mean it is either something affecting the whole brain, or else a system wide nerve problem. The associations with movement and emesis are meaningful I am sure, but I can’t figure out what the meaning is. If you were a computer I’d diagnose a power supply fault. One thing I learnt from my father having TIA’s (mini-strokes) is that the symptoms of stroke are due to the chemistry, and not directly due to thrombosis. His TIA’s happened because an erratic heart was not delivering enough blood to the brain. I had always assumed that the suddenness of a stroke reflected a sudden change in blood flow, but this is not the case, the ischemic event is a local snap-action (positive feedback) resulting from a gradual change in outside chemistry, rather like a cramp. In his case both motor and sensory nerves in the relevant area were affected. I’m afraid that’s about all I have for you on this one. Tim

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bummer. For about the last six weeks I have been experiencing increasingly worse paresthesia. It moves from spot to spot. The most reliable spots to feel this (a very dense "pins and needles feeling") are my left arm, the left side of my face and head, and, if I sit upright and try to touch my chin to my chest, I get it in a fan shape at the base of my spine. It can get bad enough that my doctor thinks I’m having a stroke. I spent about six hours in the ED last week having IV fluid and lots of potassium infused into me. Dr. was pretty SURE it wasn’t a stroke, but wanted to make sure. Is this a sign of potassium deficiency? I’m still not eating anything and vomiting several times a day, barely able to keep water down. Now the pins and needles are in a mask pattern across the top of my face and, of course, my whole left arm is involved. We’re trying to get my insurance company to approve me coming in for fluids daily, rather than waiting until it’s an emergency and I have to go to the (expensive) ED. The only pattern I’ve been able to discern is that if I get pins and needles up both sides of my neck, in a feathery kind of pattern, I’m going to throw up soon. It doesn’t hurt, it is just very annoying and physically irritating. — Aloha, Catharine Character is what you do when no one’s watching.

Response:

Catharine, how DO you manage to post to the group under such conditions? You’re incredible! Hugs, Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — Aloha, Catharine Character is what you do when no one’s watching.

Response:

Bummer. For about the last six weeks I have been experiencing increasingly worse paresthesia. It moves from spot to spot. The most reliable spots to feel this (a very dense "pins and needles feeling") are my left arm, the left side of my face and head, and, if I sit upright and try to touch my chin to my chest, I get it in a fan shape at the base of my spine. It can get bad enough that my doctor thinks I’m having a stroke. I spent about six hours in the ED last week having IV fluid and lots of potassium infused into me. Dr. was pretty SURE it wasn’t a stroke, but wanted to make sure. Is this a sign of potassium deficiency? I’m still not eating anything and vomiting several times a day, barely able to keep water down. Now the pins and needles are in a mask pattern across the top of my face and, of course, my whole left arm is involved. We’re trying to get my insurance company to approve me coming in for fluids daily, rather than waiting until it’s an emergency and I have to go to the (expensive) ED. The only pattern I’ve been able to discern is that if I get pins and needles up both sides of my neck, in a feathery kind of pattern, I’m going to throw up soon. It doesn’t hurt, it is just very annoying and physically irritating. — Aloha, Catharine Character is what you do when no one’s watching.

Response:

Can sleep apnea be misdiagnosed?

admin — Thu, 21 Nov 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Lenny wrote: > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > difficulties with concentration, but who does not.

I can believe the last sentence because you have at least three symptoms. The snoring, the feeling tired all the time and the difficulties with concentration. You may have others that you are unaware of as well. The sleep test does not give false positives, some false negatives, but not false positives. If the sleep test shows apneas, you have it. They may miss apneas, but they do not show them when they are not there! Sleep well Ross Bernheim

Response:

I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have one – heavy snoring. Hi– It’s more than just snoring, for physical symptoms. I had the assumption that you were considering your only symptom as snoring. For example: As far as the (symptoms), don’t think of multiple night awakenings (apnea) as "fully or partial waking up" as a criteria. You would not be necessarily even aware of night time awakenings. These Apneas are awakenings that shift you suddenly between REM and other stages of sleep, destroying normal recuperative sleep, without fully or partially, "consiously" waking you up. I wasn’t sure if you are using your measure as "fully awake or even just awake". Sleep apnea is different from that, so don’t use "consious awake" as a judge. Best– Ron "Lenny" wrote in message

news:cc54ccbc.0211211504.34e30ff8@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never > participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in > advance for not following right posting format or proper posting > rules. > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > difficulties with concentration, but who does not. > I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and > always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that > I’ve been misdiagnosed?

Response:

You feel very tired all the time and have diffiulties with concentration. Well I hate to tell you this but most people don’t have these problems unless they have sleep apnea so yes you most likely do have severe sleep apnea. I suggest you get out of your denial and accept that your doctor is probably right. You admitted to having more symptoms then just snoring in your post. People who get the correct amount of sleep do not feel tired all the time and have difficulty concentrating 99.9% of the time. Richie

Response:

Krlsagabg041777 wrote: > You feel very tired all the time and have diffiulties with concentration. Well > I hate to tell you this but most people don’t have these problems unless they > have sleep apnea so yes you most likely do have severe sleep apnea. > I suggest you get out of your denial and accept that your doctor is probably > right. You admitted to having more symptoms then just snoring in your post. > People who get the correct amount of sleep do not feel tired all the time and > have difficulty concentrating 99.9% of the time. > Richie

Richie….. that is NOT true! Thyroid, heart problems, vitamin deficiences, and a host of medical problems can cause a person to be tired all the time even if they are getting the correct amount of sleep. Many OSA’s find after CPAP that they are still tired and find another underlying cause that also made them tired. Regards Lee in Toronto —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

>When I told my internist that I couldn’t have sleep apnea because >I slept

like a log, he said fine, but do you sleep like a human >being? Turns out I didn’t Wonder if our Drs went to the same school/ Professor? Mine said exactly the same thing! Best— Ron (lucky) "NormC" wrote in message

news:3DDD7C35.C92B83E8@socal.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Lenny wrote: > > Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never > > participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in > > advance for not following right posting format or proper posting > > rules. > > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > > difficulties with concentration, but who does not. > > I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and > > always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that > > I’ve been misdiagnosed? > Ditto to everything Bear said. > When I was diagnosed, in a sleep lab (two years ago), I made two immediate > posts to this NG. Does everyone who is diagnosed with sleep apnea actually > have it? Does anyone spend a night at a sleep lab and not be diagnosed with > apnea? > When I told my internist that I couldn’t have sleep apnea because I slept like > a log, he said fine, but do you sleep like a human being? Turns out I

didn’t.

Response:

Guess its time to post this experience again, just to keep everyone awake (intentional pun). My wife went to same sleep lab as I did. First night no significant apnea(s), but low oxy sat levels. (I’ve never undrstood this.) Neurologist sleep doc recommended supplemental oxygen only. Initially decided that she would not return for second night…. no titration required. However, internist thought it would be a good idea to do it again, since Medicare would pay for it. She did. She showed enough apneas to be titrated, and was. The sleep doc recommended cpap. Since she was in the process of losing weight, our young Harvard MD said he wanted her to wait with cpap. She has continued to lose weight with no cpap. And, MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL, I never hear her making any of those strange, old, familiar, breathing-problem, sounds. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -eric pearson wrote: > You would not have been invited for a titration if they > had not detected apnea. > regards, > eric pearson > db2e…@nospammindspring.com > On 21 Nov 2002 21:00:50 -0800, ja…@iname.com (Lenny) wrote: > >The Somnolent Phantom wrote in message … > >> x-no-archives: yes > >> Lenny wrote: > >> > Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never > >> > participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in > >> > advance for not following right posting format or proper posting > >> > rules. > >> > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > >> > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > >> > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > >> > difficulties with concentration, but who does not. > >> > I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and > >> > always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that > >> > I’ve been misdiagnosed? > >> How and by who(m) were you diagnosed with Apnea? Did your diagnosis come > >> as a result of an overnight sleep study done in a sleep lab? If so, what > >> were the results of the sleep study? Are you treating with a board > >> certified sleep medicine specialist? What did you doctor recommend in the > >> way of treatment for your apnea? > >> An overnight polysomnography (sp?) (sleep study) is necessary to give a > >> accurate diagnosis of sleep apnea apnea. > >> Best Wishes, > >> Bear > >I underwent a sleep study and received a letter inviting me back for a > >CPAP titration study. During the sleep study I felt very uncomfortable > >because of the equipment attached to me and because the room was very > >hot. So I hardly slept at all. Also, as I mentioned, the only simptom > >I have is snoring. > >That is why I wonder if the test is 100% accurate.

Response:

Lenny wrote: > Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never > participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in > advance for not following right posting format or proper posting > rules. > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > difficulties with concentration, but who does not. > I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and > always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that > I’ve been misdiagnosed?

Probably not, and BTW, you have THREE symptoms according to your message! You are probably in a less advanced state (although still serious) of sleep apnea. Untreated on a longer term and all kinds of horrible things will happen to you, mostly not reversible. Stick with it, get your CPAP, and join the Hoover head club. Hang around here and learn and share with the group. We are a helpfull although sometimes a little crazy lot. Regards Lee in Toronto —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

> I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > difficulties with concentration, but who does not.

you may THINK you only have one symptom….but you yourself just mentioned that you actually have three…three of the most common symptoms. You may actually be more tired than you even realise, most people dont’ realise just how tired the’ve been until they start getting results from treatment… If you had an overnight sleep study that showed you have apnea events, you have apnea…. you may have trouble adjusting to the cpap…but please, dont’ be afraid to ask here for advice cause the people here are VERY helpful and can help solve just about any issue you may have with the gear. — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

You would not have been invited for a titration if they had not detected apnea. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On 21 Nov 2002 21:00:50 -0800, ja…@iname.com (Lenny) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->The Somnolent Phantom wrote in message … >> x-no-archives: yes >> Lenny wrote: >> > Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never >> > participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in >> > advance for not following right posting format or proper posting >> > rules. >> > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all >> > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have >> > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have >> > difficulties with concentration, but who does not. >> > I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and >> > always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that >> > I’ve been misdiagnosed? >> How and by who(m) were you diagnosed with Apnea? Did your diagnosis come >> as a result of an overnight sleep study done in a sleep lab? If so, what >> were the results of the sleep study? Are you treating with a board >> certified sleep medicine specialist? What did you doctor recommend in the >> way of treatment for your apnea? >> An overnight polysomnography (sp?) (sleep study) is necessary to give a >> accurate diagnosis of sleep apnea apnea. >> Best Wishes, >> Bear >I underwent a sleep study and received a letter inviting me back for a >CPAP titration study. During the sleep study I felt very uncomfortable >because of the equipment attached to me and because the room was very >hot. So I hardly slept at all. Also, as I mentioned, the only simptom >I have is snoring. >That is why I wonder if the test is 100% accurate.

Response:

Ditto to everything Bear said. When I was diagnosed, in a sleep lab (two years ago), I made two immediate posts to this NG. Does everyone who is diagnosed with sleep apnea actually have it? Does anyone spend a night at a sleep lab and not be diagnosed with apnea? When I told my internist that I couldn’t have sleep apnea because I slept like a log, he said fine, but do you sleep like a human being? Turns out I didn’t.

Response:

Lenny, ‘Very tired all the time and have difficulties with concentration’ are among the telltale symptoms of apnea – along with snoring and hypertension and nocturia. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On 21 Nov 2002 15:04:19 -0800, ja…@iname.com (Lenny) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never >participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in >advance for not following right posting format or proper posting >rules. >I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all >symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have >one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have >difficulties with concentration, but who does not. >I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and >always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that >I’ve been misdiagnosed?

Response:

The Somnolent Phantom wrote in message … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> x-no-archives: yes > Lenny wrote: > > Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never > > participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in > > advance for not following right posting format or proper posting > > rules. > > I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all > > symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have > > one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have > > difficulties with concentration, but who does not. > > I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and > > always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that > > I’ve been misdiagnosed? > How and by who(m) were you diagnosed with Apnea? Did your diagnosis come > as a result of an overnight sleep study done in a sleep lab? If so, what > were the results of the sleep study? Are you treating with a board > certified sleep medicine specialist? What did you doctor recommend in the > way of treatment for your apnea? > An overnight polysomnography (sp?) (sleep study) is necessary to give a > accurate diagnosis of sleep apnea apnea. > Best Wishes, > Bear

I underwent a sleep study and received a letter inviting me back for a CPAP titration study. During the sleep study I felt very uncomfortable because of the equipment attached to me and because the room was very hot. So I hardly slept at all. Also, as I mentioned, the only simptom I have is snoring. That is why I wonder if the test is 100% accurate.

Response:

Hello alt.support.sleep-disorder group members. I’ve never participated in the user groups before, so accept my apologies in advance for not following right posting format or proper posting rules. I’ve been diagnosed with severe sleep apnea a week ago. But out of all symptoms associated with this disorder that I read about I only have one – heavy snoring. I also feel very tired all the time and have difficulties with concentration, but who does not. I never have a problem falling asleep, rarely wake up at night, and always get up at the same time in the morning. Is it possible that I’ve been misdiagnosed?

Response:

Weak bladder and OSA?

admin — Sat, 23 Feb 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Damn it, Mike, I can’t find a date on that report. When are you going to learn? On this NG, you must provide that kind of info. HAR HAR HAR Did I miss it? Wouldn’t be the first time . – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lori&Mike wrote: > A breakthrough study has found that sleep apnea, a common but serious sleep > disorder, is the root cause of nocturia, or getting up frequently during the > night to urinate. http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/news/sa_Urination.htm And > now I have to pee Mike > "Cristy" wrote in message > news:RTHf8.15599$QV6.2032884839@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com… > > The bladder is not necessarily weaker but your arousal volume is greater. > > You are probably waking up due to a sleep disorder then you decide you > need > > to go to the bathroom. If you were to get treated you probably would find > > the late night trips would decrease.. > > Cristy > > rob mcgee wrote in message > > news:3c798456_3@corp.newsgroups.com… > > > that makes sense, I have an "Undiagnosed" sleep disorder, and I get up > at > > a > > > minimum of once a night , usually twice or more. > > > — > > > Rob McGee > > > "Richard Evans" wrote in message > > > news:3c77add0.208479919@news.mindspring.com… > > > > "Roy Gillett" wrote: > > > > >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak > > > > >bladder. > > > > Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. Frequency > > > > was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep sleep > > > > suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder keeps > > > > filling up. > > > > Dick Evans > > > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Sorry Norm, had to take a wicked pee This is at the bottom of the first paragraph, "study was published in the December 1999 issue of the journal Ostomy/Wound Management." Is that a magazine, brother? Mike "NormC" wrote in message

news:3C7FC64E.F4BC2546@socal.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Damn it, Mike, I can’t find a date on that report. When are you going to learn? On this > NG, you must provide that kind of info. HAR HAR HAR > Did I miss it? Wouldn’t be the first time . > Lori&Mike wrote: > > A breakthrough study has found that sleep apnea, a common but serious sleep > > disorder, is the root cause of nocturia, or getting up frequently during the > > night to urinate. http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/news/sa_Urination.htm And > > now I have to pee Mike > > "Cristy" wrote in message > > news:RTHf8.15599$QV6.2032884839@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com… > > > The bladder is not necessarily weaker but your arousal volume is greater. > > > You are probably waking up due to a sleep disorder then you decide you > > need > > > to go to the bathroom. If you were to get treated you probably would find > > > the late night trips would decrease.. > > > Cristy > > > rob mcgee wrote in message > > > news:3c798456_3@corp.newsgroups.com… > > > > that makes sense, I have an "Undiagnosed" sleep disorder, and I get up > > at > > > a > > > > minimum of once a night , usually twice or more. > > > > — > > > > Rob McGee > > > > "Richard Evans" wrote in message > > > > news:3c77add0.208479919@news.mindspring.com… > > > > > "Roy Gillett" wrote: > > > > > >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak > > > > > >bladder. > > > > > Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. Frequency > > > > > was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep sleep > > > > > suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder keeps > > > > > filling up. > > > > > Dick Evans > > > > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > > —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

OK. Great! Acceptable to me as recent vintage. Anyone care to guess why-in-the-world it was published in The Journal of Ostomy/Wound Management? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lori&Mike wrote: > Sorry Norm, had to take a wicked pee This is at the bottom of the first > paragraph, "study was published in the December 1999 issue of the journal > Ostomy/Wound Management." Is that a magazine, brother? Mike > "NormC" wrote in message > news:3C7FC64E.F4BC2546@socal.rr.com… > > Damn it, Mike, I can’t find a date on that report. When are you going to > learn? On this > > NG, you must provide that kind of info. HAR HAR HAR > > Did I miss it? Wouldn’t be the first time . > > Lori&Mike wrote: > > > A breakthrough study has found that sleep apnea, a common but serious > sleep > > > disorder, is the root cause of nocturia, or getting up frequently during > the > > > night to urinate. http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/news/sa_Urination.htm > And > > > now I have to pee Mike > > > "Cristy" wrote in message > > > news:RTHf8.15599$QV6.2032884839@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com… > > > > The bladder is not necessarily weaker but your arousal volume is > greater. > > > > You are probably waking up due to a sleep disorder then you decide you > > > need > > > > to go to the bathroom. If you were to get treated you probably would > find > > > > the late night trips would decrease.. > > > > Cristy > > > > rob mcgee wrote in message > > > > news:3c798456_3@corp.newsgroups.com… > > > > > that makes sense, I have an "Undiagnosed" sleep disorder, and I get > up > > > at > > > > a > > > > > minimum of once a night , usually twice or more. > > > > > — > > > > > Rob McGee > > > > > "Richard Evans" wrote in message > > > > > news:3c77add0.208479919@news.mindspring.com… > > > > > > "Roy Gillett" wrote: > > > > > > >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a > weak > > > > > > >bladder. > > > > > > Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. > Frequency > > > > > > was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep > sleep > > > > > > suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder > keeps > > > > > > filling up. > > > > > > Dick Evans > > > > > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > > > > > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > > > > —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

A breakthrough study has found that sleep apnea, a common but serious sleep disorder, is the root cause of nocturia, or getting up frequently during the night to urinate. http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/news/sa_Urination.htm And now I have to pee Mike "Cristy" wrote in message

news:RTHf8.15599$QV6.2032884839@newssvr17.news.prodigy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The bladder is not necessarily weaker but your arousal volume is greater. > You are probably waking up due to a sleep disorder then you decide you need > to go to the bathroom. If you were to get treated you probably would find > the late night trips would decrease.. > Cristy > rob mcgee wrote in message > news:3c798456_3@corp.newsgroups.com… > > that makes sense, I have an "Undiagnosed" sleep disorder, and I get up at > a > > minimum of once a night , usually twice or more. > > — > > Rob McGee > > "Richard Evans" wrote in message > > news:3c77add0.208479919@news.mindspring.com… > > > "Roy Gillett" wrote: > > > >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak > > > >bladder. > > > Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. Frequency > > > was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep sleep > > > suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder keeps > > > filling up. > > > Dick Evans > > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > > —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Roy Gillett wrote: > Something’s puzzling me about OSA. According to everything I’ve read about > it, one of the symptoms is waking up in the middle of the night to go to the > bathroom. In fact, the specialist I saw asked about that. I understand that > in extreme cases it can manifest as bedwetting. Well, that’s not happened to > me in over forty years, but I do always get up for a leak at around 4am. > (Apparently I don’t have full OSA but I do display enough symptoms to > recommend CPAP therapy, which I just started.) > But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak > bladder.To the innocent observer it looks as if getting up for a leak is a > function of drinking too much (water) during the evening. What’s the > connenection between OSA and night time leaks? And is it supposed to stop > now I’m on CPAP?

Please see my post to Carol, and then add to that, if you are a male, it could be an enlarged prostate and not apnea that causes the problem. That’s what I was originally diagnosed with. Initially on CPAP, it went away. Then it came back some. To try to zero in on the cause I went to a urologist and had an ultrasound of my prostate. Doc said I had a prostate of a 20 year old (I’m 67). He concluded that, from his POV, it was my bladder resulting from age and diabetes. When I told him about what I posted to Carol, he admitted he knew nothing about the effect of apnea. HTH

Response:

that makes sense, I have an "Undiagnosed" sleep disorder, and I get up at a minimum of once a night , usually twice or more. — Rob McGee "Richard Evans" wrote in message

news:3c77add0.208479919@news.mindspring.com… > "Roy Gillett" wrote: > >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak > >bladder. > Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. Frequency > was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep sleep > suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder keeps > filling up. > Dick Evans

—–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

The bladder is not necessarily weaker but your arousal volume is greater. You are probably waking up due to a sleep disorder then you decide you need to go to the bathroom. If you were to get treated you probably would find the late night trips would decrease.. Cristy rob mcgee wrote in message

news:3c798456_3@corp.newsgroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> that makes sense, I have an "Undiagnosed" sleep disorder, and I get up at a > minimum of once a night , usually twice or more. > — > Rob McGee > "Richard Evans" wrote in message > news:3c77add0.208479919@news.mindspring.com… > > "Roy Gillett" wrote: > > >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak > > >bladder. > > Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. Frequency > > was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep sleep > > suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder keeps > > filling up. > > Dick Evans > —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– > http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! > —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

Roy Gillett wrote: > What’s the > connenection between OSA and night time leaks? And is it supposed to stop > now I’m on CPAP?

Everyone seems to have a different explanation…the one I was given (and it does seem reasonable to me) is that without CPAP, those of us with sleep apnea are sleeping lightly and therefore are more likely to notice bladder fullness long before we would if we were sleeping deeply. I notice that now I’ll occasionally rouse slightly and may think about getting up to go to the bathroom, but usually, I’ll fall right back asleep and sleep several more hours before finally getting up to go to the bathroom. Before CPAP, if I wakened and thought about going to the bathroom, I would always end up going because I simply wouldn’t get back to sleep enough to ignore the "need." Carol P.

Response:

Carol Pettit wrote: > Roy Gillett wrote: > > What’s the > > connenection between OSA and night time leaks? And is it supposed to stop > > now I’m on CPAP? > Everyone seems to have a different explanation…the one I was given > (and it does seem reasonable to me) is that without CPAP, those of us > with sleep apnea are sleeping lightly and therefore are more likely to > notice bladder fullness long before we would if we were sleeping deeply.

In the last year someone put a link up to a medical article explaining this ‘phenomenon’, and it was pretty much as you describe above!! Just because one has the urge to urinate, doesn’t mean you must. How many times, when you are awake, do you get the urge when you are not near a toilet? What do you do? You control it until you get to a toilet. With quality (normal?) sleep, the urge will not be recognized by the body/mind. so it will wait, just as when you are awake and wait. However, when you don’t get quality sleep, an awakening presents the urge, which is acted upon at that time for more than one reason. The first is that the toilet is near by. No need to wait. And if you did try to wait, and are not on xPAP, you will continue to have the urge because of failure to achieve deep enough sleep. If you are using xPAP, it may take you long enough to return to sleep that the urge becomes overwhelming. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I notice that now I’ll occasionally rouse slightly and may think about > getting up to go to the bathroom, but usually, I’ll fall right back > asleep and sleep several more hours before finally getting up to go to > the bathroom. Before CPAP, if I wakened and thought about going to the > bathroom, I would always end up going because I simply wouldn’t get back > to sleep enough to ignore the "need." > Carol P.

Response:

"Roy Gillett" wrote: >Something’s puzzling me about OSA. According to everything I’ve read about >it, one of the symptoms is waking up in the middle of the night to go to the >bathroom. In fact, the specialist I saw asked about that. I understand that >in extreme cases it can manifest as bedwetting. Well, that’s not happened to >me in over forty years, but I do always get up for a leak at around 4am.

One trip per night doesn’t really qualify as nocturia, few people seem to sleep straight through without a single bathroom run. >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak >bladder.To the innocent observer it looks as if getting up for a leak is a >function of drinking too much (water) during the evening. What’s the >connenection between OSA and night time leaks?

An over-stressed heart releases a protein that the brain assumes is cause by fluid overload. http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/news/sa_Urination.htm >And is it supposed to stop now I’m on CPAP?

Hard to tell. Once the apnea’s treated, you’re back to bladder capacity and evening fluid consumption. Please let us know if makes any difference in your case. Tom

Response:

On Sat, 23 Feb 2002 11:25:11 +0000 (UTC), "Roy Gillett" wrote: >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak >bladder.To the innocent observer it looks as if getting up for a leak is a >function of drinking too much (water) during the evening. What’s the >connenection between OSA and night time leaks?

From what I’ve heard, it’s because each event is accompanied by a small amount of diuretic hormone. I was on a calcium channel blocker plus an A2A for my blood pressure, and they had to add a diuretic to the mix to prevent me from getting puffy ankles post-CPAP.

Response:

Something’s puzzling me about OSA. According to everything I’ve read about it, one of the symptoms is waking up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. In fact, the specialist I saw asked about that. I understand that in extreme cases it can manifest as bedwetting. Well, that’s not happened to me in over forty years, but I do always get up for a leak at around 4am. (Apparently I don’t have full OSA but I do display enough symptoms to recommend CPAP therapy, which I just started.) But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak bladder.To the innocent observer it looks as if getting up for a leak is a function of drinking too much (water) during the evening. What’s the connenection between OSA and night time leaks? And is it supposed to stop now I’m on CPAP?

Response:

"Roy Gillett" wrote: >But what I don’t understand is why a sleep disorder manifests a weak >bladder.

Before I was diagnosed, I had to get up every hour to pee. Frequency was much reduced on the CPAP. As explained by my doctor, deep sleep suppresses urine production. Wihtout deep sleep, your bladder keeps filling up. Dick Evans

Response:

The mystery(s) of OSA – Anyone else?

admin — Tue, 18 Dec 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> > Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > > really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just > > cannot sleep…. > FWIW, upon my inquiring, someone at my sleep lab said they do loan out autoPAPx to > fine tune pressure requirements. Knowing this has.is helping me to formulate a > plan of action.

I doublt my little non-city australian sleep lab would even HAVE an autopap… i’ve thought about renting one…. but i was told the waiting list for a rented autopap is basically infinite. Beth in oz

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tal wrote: > > > Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > > > really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i > just > > > cannot sleep…. > > FWIW, upon my inquiring, someone at my sleep lab said they do loan out > autoPAPx to > > fine tune pressure requirements. Knowing this has.is helping me to > formulate a > > plan of action. > I doublt my little non-city australian sleep lab would even HAVE an > autopap… i’ve thought about > renting one…. but i was told the waiting list for a rented autopap is > basically infinite. > Beth in oz

Never know unless you try! Anyone ever check with Joe to see if he would rent/lease one to a person in need?

Response:

"Tal" wrote: >> BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? >Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of >6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh*

How long has it been? >But…..i do think it’s made some >kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things >that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats >managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me >waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now >without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t >occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally >wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not >sure….it’s just a theory.

It sounds like a good theory, and a sign that you’re getting more deep sleep. >Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i >really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just >cannot sleep….

You might do better now that you’re used to the pressure and mask, but I get the feeling that you’re unlikely to qualify for another test any time soon. >Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I.

I’m doing fine. I’m thinking about asking for a re-titration, it’s been 18 months and I seem to be sleeping longer. (But that might just be my way avoiding as much of The Season as possible. ) Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tal wrote: > > BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? > > Tom > Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of > 6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh* it’s hard and > frustrating….i just wnat my life back! But…..i do think it’s made some > kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things > that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats > managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me > waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now > without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t > occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally > wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not > sure….it’s just a theory. > Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just > cannot sleep….

FWIW, upon my inquiring, someone at my sleep lab said they do loan out autoPAPx to fine tune pressure requirements. Knowing this has.is helping me to formulate a plan of action. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I. > Beth in Oz

Response:

"Tom Devlin" wrote in message

news:1qo62u4ovckg83pv630a941qpj96ca2ns5@4ax.com… > "Tal" wrote: > >> BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? > >Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of > >6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh* > How long has it been?

I’ve been using CPAP (compliant & comfortable from about day 3) since the beginning of September. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >But…..i do think it’s made some > >kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things > >that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats > >managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me > >waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now > >without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t > >occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally > >wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not > >sure….it’s just a theory. > It sounds like a good theory, and a sign that you’re getting more deep > sleep. > >Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > >really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just > >cannot sleep…. > You might do better now that you’re used to the pressure and mask, but > I get the feeling that you’re unlikely to qualify for another test any > time soon.

I never had a problem with the pressure or mask…….aside from the fact that it was more than two years ago i had my titration – i don’t WANT another test, knowing that i’m not likely to sleep (and they will NOT let you take any kind of sleeping pill in oz before a test – not that i’ve ever taken any kinda sleeping pill anyway) makes it kind of a pointless excercise, especially when it’s an out of town trip… and i can’t drive myself out of town…..so it’s a huge hassle… with the good possibility of it being a time waster due to lack of sleep…… not trying to sound negative…just explaining the situation. I am about to start taking magnesium – in hopes it will ease the morning pain a little….. > >Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I. > I’m doing fine. I’m thinking about asking for a re-titration, it’s > been 18 months and I seem to be sleeping longer. (But that might just > be my way avoiding as much of The Season as possible. ) > Tom

I think there’s a lot of us trying to "avoid the season" a bit – i wouldn’t mind so much if it wasn’t so commercialised….

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC wrote: > >> But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. > >Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: > >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate ) > Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you > started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you?

You are correct. Up to 2 from 1. FWIW, I can’t remember if I was up to pee 1 or 2 times last night with no ’symptoms’ (as usual; HOWEVER, today at normal wakeup time, I awoke with NO DRY MOUTH and SPASM WAS MINIMAL. ( 1 or 2 on scale of 10). I did go to bed earlier than the night before, so an extra variable again. > >No back spasm or dry mouth either time > So you were still properly hydrated….

Unless there is some kind of time-delay involved in all of the bodies operations. > >At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth. > This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced > nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration.

I agree!!! However, I am once again having a couple symtoms of an enlarged prostate (but I have the prostate of a 20 year old!): a lack of control (a little dribble do ya ) and minimal and long-time stream. I will be seeing the proctologist in a week or two and will ask if the suggested bladder problem could also cause this. Wonder what effect OSA might have on prostate, causing it to act like an enlarged prostate. As it was, the internist ‘diagnosed’ enlarged prostate before OSA. (But I have the prostate of a 20 year old. Yes, I am proud of that .) Thanks for your continued help. I am truly grateful. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tom

Response:

NormC wrote: >> >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate ) >> Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you >> started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you? >You are correct. Up to 2 from 1.

Well, that’s proof that you’re drinking the water. >FWIW, I can’t remember if I was up to pee 1 or 2 times last night with no >’symptoms’ (as usual; HOWEVER, today at normal wakeup time, I awoke with NO DRY >MOUTH and SPASM WAS MINIMAL. ( 1 or 2 on scale of 10).

That’s encouraging, please keep us updated… >> This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced >> nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration. >I agree!!! However, I am once again having a couple symtoms of an enlarged >prostate (but I have the prostate of a 20 year old!):

There’s nothing that says that you can’t have two problems. >Wonder what effect OSA might have on prostate, causing it to act like an enlarged >prostate.

I’m not aware of anything besides nocturia, and CPAP usually corrects that. But there’s a _lot_ I don’t know. Tom

Response:

> BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? > Tom

Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of 6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh* it’s hard and frustrating….i just wnat my life back! But…..i do think it’s made some kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not sure….it’s just a theory. Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just cannot sleep…. Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I. Beth in Oz

Response:

Whoops! Be seeing urologist, not proctologist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC wrote: > Tom Devlin wrote: > > NormC wrote: > > >> But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. > > >Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: > > >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate ) > > Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you > > started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you? > You are correct. Up to 2 from 1. > FWIW, I can’t remember if I was up to pee 1 or 2 times last night with no > ’symptoms’ (as usual; HOWEVER, today at normal wakeup time, I awoke with NO DRY > MOUTH and SPASM WAS MINIMAL. ( 1 or 2 on scale of 10). > I did go to bed earlier than the night before, so an extra variable again. > > >No back spasm or dry mouth either time > > So you were still properly hydrated…. > Unless there is some kind of time-delay involved in all of the bodies operations. > > >At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth. > > This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced > > nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration. > I agree!!! However, I am once again having a couple symtoms of an enlarged > prostate (but I have the prostate of a 20 year old!): a lack of control (a little > dribble do ya ) and minimal and long-time stream. I will be seeing the > proctologist in a week or two and will ask if the suggested bladder problem could > also cause this. > Wonder what effect OSA might have on prostate, causing it to act like an enlarged > prostate. As it was, the internist ‘diagnosed’ enlarged prostate before OSA. (But > I have the prostate of a 20 year old. Yes, I am proud of that .) > Thanks for your continued help. I am truly grateful. > > Tom

Response:

NormC wrote: >> But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. >Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate )

Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you? >No back spasm or dry mouth either time

So you were still properly hydrated…. >At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth.

This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration. Tom

Response:

"Tal" wrote: >Of course, I suggested dehydration back on the 17th on your other thread >*grin*

That’s starting to look like an awfully good call. BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? Tom

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote:

[snipped] > But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. > Tom

Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate ) No back spasm or dry mouth either time At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth. My plan is to keep on drinking (water, of course), see what happens in the next few days, and then get back to the sleep doc. Hereafter I will only post progress (or lack thereof) and any other unusual occurrences. *** Desert Dry Cement Dry 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

Response:

Of course, I suggested dehydration back on the 17th on your other thread *grin* Beth in oz "NormC" wrote in message

news:3C1FB0CF.CDE76CFD@socal.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tom Devlin wrote: > > NormC wrote: > > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > > that could dry you out during the night? > Holy crap!!! SUPER thanks. I HAVE NEVER drank/drunk(?) enough fluids. My lack of > fluids has been hit upon a couple times here on the NG, in particuoar with regard > to the accumulation of mucous in my throat and my concern for its effect on my OSA. > I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding > my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime > (even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also > what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; > thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep. > There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA. > Then he told me to drink more water because of my throat problem. > Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says > DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly > seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and > not cement dry this morning! > Hold it a minute. Alarm just popped up. Gulp, gulp,. gulp,gulp. > > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > > during the night, > Great suggestion. I am going to do that. > > let us know if anything changes. > For certain. I always hate to have anyone else go through similar miseries… > because of my kind of ignorance. > > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most > people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then > attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a > "postulate". > So, Tom, I am tickled to have you and any and everyone else guess away!!!!!! > Thanks again. > > >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > > >urinate once during the night.) > > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > > >cause this. > > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > > >mouth. > > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > > >anything remotely similar. > > >I do have some concerns!!! > > >Thanks.

Response:

NormC wrote: >> I think we may have a horse<->cart reversal here. If you’re >> dehydrated, from whatever cause, then no (practical) amount of >> humidity can deal with the problem. >I think we may have a semantics problem here . I was reluctant to use the word >"dehydrated" because my situation doesn’t really fit my understanding of >dehydration. I do not believe I an dehydrated – dehydrated, just not enough >fluids, but not little enough to be dehydrated so….

There are degrees of dehydration, and dry mouth is a sign of mild dehydration. >Seems reasonable to think >that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, and then, indeed, having >your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose AND MOUTH could dry >everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if you are already >somewhat dehydrated? Does this change your thinking about my situation?

Norm, I just don’t know. You’re getting the same amount of water no matter where it comes in. I’m not sure how the surface area of your nasal passages compares to that of your mouth, it seems unlikely that you’re breathing through both your mouth and nose, but I’ve seen nothing that says that people using full face masks need more humidity. >Let’s revisit the fact that my humidifier was dry for the first time in a year, the >first night I used full mask. Does this seem consistent with your thinking?

That could be because you were mouth breathing with your nasal mask, there’d have been no airflow through the chamber during those periods so the level wouldn’t have dropped as much. OTOH, you’ve been playing with the temperature, you may have just set it slightly higher. And my water consumption varies from night to night, even at the same setting. Once again, I just don’t know. But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. Tom

Response:

Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), and proctologist (back not related to his end). Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.) Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can cause this. HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ mouth. Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced anything remotely similar. I do have some concerns!!! Thanks.

Response:

NormC wrote: >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof).

A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds like you also need to urinate less frequently. Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything that could dry you out during the night? Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up during the night, let us know if anything changes. Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), >and proctologist (back not related to his end). >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to >urinate once during the night.) >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can >cause this. >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ >mouth. >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced >anything remotely similar. >I do have some concerns!!! >Thanks.

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC wrote: > >I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding > >my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime > >(even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also > >what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; > >thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep. > Was this about the same time that the dry mouth started? (I’d just > _love_ to find a "smoking gun". )

Can’t answer the specific question; however, I think the overall sequence has been like this (starting 3 months ago): (1) already had back spasms, (2) desert dry mouth in morning, zombie all day, (3) used chin-strap unsuccessfully, (4) started Provigil to keep awake, (5) started Flomax to keep asleep. No water at bedtime after (2) and before (5). Thanks to your asking the question, I see that I actually started on Flomax more recently than Provigil. Have to try and take a look at it’s side effects. > >There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA. > Right, and remember the apnea->heart->protine->brain->urinate link > that Charlie alerted us to. It may be that your dry mouth is really > the result of a too low pressure, and we’ve been barking up the wrong > tree(s) all along. This makes even more sense when we consider that > you’re also experiencing daytime sleepiness, you may be dumping all > available water on your first (apnea induced) bathroom run, this could > leave you dehydrated for the rest of the night and might explain both > the dry mouth and morning back ache.

Hopefully we’ll know more about the dehydration aspect of this shortly. I still may not be drinking enough, but I’m drinking a helluva lot more than I have for a very long time. > >Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says > >DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly > >seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and > >not cement dry this morning! > How was your back this morning?

It was there, but I don’t recall that it was especially bad. Maybe it was a little better than usual. So I started drinking water yesterday and this morning both my back and mouth were a little better!! I’ve had more water today than yesterday and am looking forward to tomorrow morning. Heaven knows how many trips I may need to get up to pee, even if I don’t drink anything after 9:00PM. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > >As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most > >people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then > >attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a > >"postulate". > Cool, a fifty-cent word for "guessing". > Tom (Who’s just postulating, as usual.)

Response:

NormC wrote: >Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, >and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose >AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if >you are already somewhat dehydrated? Mike? Tom?

I think we may have a horse<->cart reversal here. If you’re dehydrated, from whatever cause, then no (practical) amount of humidity can deal with the problem. More in the other thread… Tom

Response:

NormC wrote: >I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding >my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime >(even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also >what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; >thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep.

Was this about the same time that the dry mouth started? (I’d just _love_ to find a "smoking gun". ) >There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA.

Right, and remember the apnea->heart->protine->brain->urinate link that Charlie alerted us to. It may be that your dry mouth is really the result of a too low pressure, and we’ve been barking up the wrong tree(s) all along. This makes even more sense when we consider that you’re also experiencing daytime sleepiness, you may be dumping all available water on your first (apnea induced) bathroom run, this could leave you dehydrated for the rest of the night and might explain both the dry mouth and morning back ache. >Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says >DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly >seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and >not cement dry this morning!

How was your back this morning? >> Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) >As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most >people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then >attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a >"postulate".

Cool, a fifty-cent word for "guessing". Tom (Who’s just postulating, as usual.)

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC wrote: > >Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, > >and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose > >AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if > >you are already somewhat dehydrated? Mike? Tom? > I think we may have a horse<->cart reversal here. If you’re > dehydrated, from whatever cause, then no (practical) amount of > humidity can deal with the problem.

I think we may have a semantics problem here . I was reluctant to use the word "dehydrated" because my situation doesn’t really fit my understanding of dehydration. I do not believe I an dehydrated – dehydrated, just not enough fluids, but not little enough to be dehydrated so…. Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if you are already somewhat dehydrated? Does this change your thinking about my situation? Let’s revisit the fact that my humidifier was dry for the first time in a year, the first night I used full mask. Does this seem consistent with your thinking? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> More in the other thread… > Tom

Response:

NormC wrote: >I’ve been getting indications of new posts, say 6, and only being able to find/read >something less than 6. Because of the importance of this subject to me, and >hopefully others, would you be so kind as to also reply directly to me as well as >the NG? I want to be sure that I don’t miss any in this thread.

I see that all the time, especially when not much time has elapsed since my last check. I think the news server gets confused about which messages it’s already sent. Remember that you can always double-check against the Google archives. At the time you made this post there were six messages in the thread, one from Mike, one from me, and four from you. You replied to both Mike and I, so I doubt you’re missing anything Posted and mailed, this message only. Tom

Response:

I’ve been getting indications of new posts, say 6, and only being able to find/read something less than 6. Because of the importance of this subject to me, and hopefully others, would you be so kind as to also reply directly to me as well as the NG? I want to be sure that I don’t miss any in this thread. TIA> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC wrote: > Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > and proctologist (back not related to his end). > Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > urinate once during the night.) > Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > cause this. > HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > mouth. > Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > anything remotely similar. > I do have some concerns!!! > Thanks.

Response:

Lori&Mike wrote: > Tom, some good guessing! Norm, I’ve noticed that any type of soda a few > hours before bed messes with my bladder.

Well… do YOU have the prostate of a 20 year old (like me)? > And when I have the rare long sleep > (more than about 3 hours without getting up) my back hurts also. Try a > pillow under your knees to keep your legs from being straight (should relive > your back some).

Thanks. That’s something else I will try later. Only one experiment at a time. Otherwise won’t know which variable change did it. However, I had back problems pre-teen, got rear-ended in a little Austin-Healy Sprite 25-30 years ago, suffered severe pain OUT OF BED for 7 years, and then the pain went away. What I am experiencing is not what I would call pain, because even when it is ‘over’ my back generally doesn’t hurt. BTW, I distinguish between pain, ache, irritation, strain, etc. I don’t really have any of these. > Dry mouth thing has me stumped unless its just plain old > mouth breathing from nasal congestion. Happy holidays to you and all.

Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if you are already somewhat dehydrated? Mike? Tom? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mike > "Tom Devlin" wrote in message > news:p99v1uoil2hg8eg31le8f7l208bokasmkc@4ax.com… > > NormC wrote: > > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have > had an > > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or > may not be > > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > > that could dry you out during the night? > > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > > during the night, let us know if anything changes. > > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > > >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I > started to have > > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back > problem. > > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old > orthopedist (try > > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take > any more > > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital > check shows > > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of > things), > > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 > minutes, wake > > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake > ~ 3 hours > > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get > up to > > >urinate once during the night.) > > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to > urinate. > > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to > how OSA can > > >cause this. > > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise > for the > > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes > me. I am > > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter > is that > > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does > not > > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get > some relief. > > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start > walking, it > > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did > not have > > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. > However, at > > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a > ‘desert dry’ > > >mouth. > > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and > no cement > > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has > experienced > > >anything remotely similar. > > >I do have some concerns!!! > > >Thanks.

Response:

Tom, some good guessing! Norm, I’ve noticed that any type of soda a few hours before bed messes with my bladder. And when I have the rare long sleep (more than about 3 hours without getting up) my back hurts also. Try a pillow under your knees to keep your legs from being straight (should relive your back some). Dry mouth thing has me stumped unless its just plain old mouth breathing from nasal congestion. Happy holidays to you and all. Mike "Tom Devlin" wrote in message

news:p99v1uoil2hg8eg31le8f7l208bokasmkc@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> NormC wrote: > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > that could dry you out during the night? > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > during the night, let us know if anything changes. > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > >urinate once during the night.) > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > >cause this. > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > >mouth. > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > >anything remotely similar. > >I do have some concerns!!! > >Thanks.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC wrote: > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > that could dry you out during the night?

Holy crap!!! SUPER thanks. I HAVE NEVER drank/drunk(?) enough fluids. My lack of fluids has been hit upon a couple times here on the NG, in particuoar with regard to the accumulation of mucous in my throat and my concern for its effect on my OSA. I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime (even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep. There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA. Then he told me to drink more water because of my throat problem. Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and not cement dry this morning! Hold it a minute. Alarm just popped up. Gulp, gulp,. gulp,gulp. > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > during the night,

Great suggestion. I am going to do that. > let us know if anything changes.

For certain. I always hate to have anyone else go through similar miseries… because of my kind of ignorance. > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.)

As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a "postulate". So, Tom, I am tickled to have you and any and everyone else guess away!!!!!! Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > >urinate once during the night.) > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > >cause this. > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > >mouth. > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > >anything remotely similar. > >I do have some concerns!!! > >Thanks.

Response:

MS Conference Information (please give to your nerurologist!)

admin — Mon, 20 Aug 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

In article , zulo…@hotmail.com (Zu Snooze Zu Loose) writes: >Sorry to go on like this. I’m really struggling. It’s not that I’m >unwilling to accept the diagnoses. Actually I’m happy to… if it’s >the right one. I just want to be sure – is that possible?

"Happy" to accept it? Kathi

Response:

Well, ya. I’m sure we all remember the frustrating time(s) when all kinds of things were happening to our bodies and no one could tell us why – or at least what they told us didn’t quite add up. For me, it felt like I was waiting… always waiting, wondering, imagining the worst but trying not to expect it. When I was finally diagnosed with MS and EDS I was relieved. I finally knew what was wrong with me and the things I’d been struggling with my whole life made sense to me. When you know what you’re facing you can begin to address it. I just want to know for sure what I’m dealing with so that I can get on with the business of living my life. Well, that’s my feeling about it anyway. It’s probably not everyone’s. I’ve never been accused of being ‘normal’. ;-) Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kamatth…@aol.com (Kathi Matthews) wrote in message … > In article , > zulo…@hotmail.com (Zu Snooze Zu Loose) writes: > >Sorry to go on like this. I’m really struggling. It’s not that I’m > >unwilling to accept the diagnoses. Actually I’m happy to… if it’s > >the right one. I just want to be sure – is that possible? > "Happy" to accept it? > Kathi

Response:

Hi Laura, Thanks for the reply!! Yes, he did those things the first time – don’t recall him doing all of them at follow ups. I was just wondering if there was anything else. He mentioned something in passing a couple of times about wondering if there was nerve entrapment in my arm – because of the numbness in my fingers. I think I’ll ask him to check that out – I think the test required is an evoked potentials test??? Does that sound right? Sue – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Mona" wrote in message … > Does the doctor do an exam? A neurological exam would involve checking your > strength (ie i push on his hands with both hands) balance (think that is > what it checks..) ie walking down a long hall, reflex checks arms and legs.. > A variety of things like that. A whole variety of things like that – takes > about 10-15 minutes. > — > Laura

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joan Carter wrote in message … > On 24 Aug 2001 01:29:17 -0700, gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote: > }Joan, glad you found the right blend of physicians. It is not > }uncommon I understand for MS patients to look around till they find > }the right doctor. Being a physician is even harder, especially when > }you challenge their knowledge and treatment options > Yes, I know. I have always heard that… "Nurses and doctors make the > worst patients"…. Not True. In the last few years of my nursing > career I went out of my way to give that little extra to patients who > were in the medical profession, or whose parents were. (I was a > paediatric nurse in NICU, then an enterostomal therapist in a > paediatric hospital). I was so tired of hearing those folks judged > before they opened their mouths. I know several nurses who will not > tell what their profession is if they have to go to hospital. Seems > unfair. We are no better nor worse than other patients. Some are > great, some are a pain in the ass. > — > Joan > Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don’t have film.

Joan, I guess I fit into the pain in the butt category . My point is that when I meet physicians who know less than I do (and are board certified neurologists) about MS, then that is what I mean by "making the worst patient". Also I never said anything about nurses . Gary

Response:

zulo…@hotmail.com (Zu Snooze Zu Loose) wrote in message … – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Laura, > Thanks for the reply!! Yes, he did those things the first time – > don’t recall him doing all of them at follow ups. I was just > wondering if there was anything else. He mentioned something in > passing a couple of times about wondering if there was nerve > entrapment in my arm – because of the numbness in my fingers. I think > I’ll ask him to check that out – I think the test required is an > evoked potentials test??? Does that sound right? > Sue > "Mona" wrote in message … > > Does the doctor do an exam? A neurological exam would involve checking your > > strength (ie i push on his hands with both hands) balance (think that is > > what it checks..) ie walking down a long hall, reflex checks arms and legs.. > > A variety of things like that. A whole variety of things like that – takes > > about 10-15 minutes. > > — > > Laura

Sue, I cannot discern any diagnosis which requires an onsite history (your physician needs to spend the time listening to the patient and asking questions) and also perform a neurological, physical exam, and appropriate testing by your neurologist. Bottom line is that the exam described above is an accurate description of a neuro exam. Here are examples of neurological examination techniques which are taught to most first year medical students (sorry, but I must use medical terminology, so bring these terms to your physician): cranial nerve testing (check eye movement, shoulder shrug, stick out your tongue etc), reflex testing (usually hyperreflexic in MS), fundoscopic examination of the eyes (looking for optic nerve damage), pinprick (testing for loss of sensation), rhombergs test (test for loss of balance while standing still with your eyes shut). I used to this testing in less than 15 minutes with a full physical exam . Good luck, Gary

Response:

Does the doctor do an exam? A neurological exam would involve checking your strength (ie i push on his hands with both hands) balance (think that is what it checks..) ie walking down a long hall, reflex checks arms and legs.. A variety of things like that. A whole variety of things like that – takes about 10-15 minutes. — Laura This troll here has sticky out ears. — This troll that troll, A children’s Pop up book by Mick InkPen Member of the Mercury Aspartame Amalgam Gluten Free Dairy Free Lyme Multiple Sclerosis Society. "Zu Snooze Zu Loose" wrote in message news:b9bc0b9a.0108240740.3d2afd71@posting.google.com… > gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote in message

… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > … If your physician does not perform a thorough > > neurological exam at each visit, does not give the time to listen to > > you, or does not keep up with the clinical literature and latest > > conference information, find another neurologist. This is why I am on > > my third neurologist. > Gary, or anyone who can help, > What would a thorough neurological exam entail. I was diagnosed based > on two relapses and two MRIs. No other tests were done. At my follow > ups no additional tests were done – just questions and answers about > how I was feeling. I was diagnosed in May and I’m preparing to start > taking Copaxone and having a hard time feeling comfortable about it. > What other tests might be needed/helpful? Relapse one was loss of > feeling on my left side (arm and legs, two fingers were worst and > feelng in them has not returned). Second relapse was vertigo – and > worsening of eyesight. What if there’s really an entrapped nerve in > my arm (ulnar), what if the worsening of eyesight was expected (I’ve > always had eyesight problems), and the vertigo was related to some > other balance/inner ear issue (I’m hearing a drum pounding in the left > ear when on the phone or surrounded by noise)? What if the plaques on > my brain are related to something other than MS? My grandfather had > Parkinson’s – could it be that instead? I was diagnosed with EDS as > well so that would account for pain and fatigue. Not sure what else, > other than MS, would explain the memory and thinking problems. > Sorry to go on like this. I’m really struggling. It’s not that I’m > unwilling to accept the diagnoses. Actually I’m happy to… if it’s > the right one. I just want to be sure – is that possible? > Thanks for listening. > Sue

Response:

On 24 Aug 2001 01:29:17 -0700, gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote: }Joan, glad you found the right blend of physicians. It is not }uncommon I understand for MS patients to look around till they find }the right doctor. Being a physician is even harder, especially when }you challenge their knowledge and treatment options

Yes, I know. I have always heard that… "Nurses and doctors make the worst patients"…. Not True. In the last few years of my nursing career I went out of my way to give that little extra to patients who were in the medical profession, or whose parents were. (I was a paediatric nurse in NICU, then an enterostomal therapist in a paediatric hospital). I was so tired of hearing those folks judged before they opened their mouths. I know several nurses who will not tell what their profession is if they have to go to hospital. Seems unfair. We are no better nor worse than other patients. Some are great, some are a pain in the ass. — Joan Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don’t have film.

Response:

Gary, When you practiced was it in/near San Francisco? My neuro says he knows but has lost contact with a neuro who has MS that I might like to speak with regarding dietary issues. My neuro says that this other neuro belileves he has had some success with dietary modifications Are you possibly that man? Roy

Response:

On 20 Aug 2001 02:19:18 -0700, gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote: >Premenstrual Worsening >In a small study[25] involving 28 women with MS (mean age, 40 years; >mean disease duration, 8 years), 78% had premenstrual worsening of leg >weakness, pain, and nocturia, as detected by a daily questionnaire. This study >adds to a small but growing literature reporting fluctuations in MS symptoms >related to the menstrual cycle. This small but prospective study should be >pursued in a larger patient population.

I would hope to see this examined further. On one occassion I had a definite worsening of existing symptoms during my period. Cramps, backache and a bitchy ‘tude plus fatigue, a limp and and a tightly wound fist. Not a pretty sight…damn near drove the family out to a hotel ) Rhonda

Response:

A Dr. with MS. So at least you can understand the technical lingo What about Procarin? It sounds so good but i can’t find a physician who will prescribe for me. If it doesn’t work for me no loss, right? Any suggestions on finding a physician who will stick his/her neck out?

Response:

On 20 Aug 2001 02:19:18 -0700, gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote: }I am now retired due to my disability and due to my continual }relapsing condition cannot answer personal email questions. Join }medscape.com }It is free and is provides useful clinical information. A clinically }informed patient is a well armed patient.

Gary, you are welcome here. I will not send you email questions. It is good to get your input though. I feel very lucky with my physicians, general practitioner and neurologist. Hmm, wonder if the Canadians are more interested in M.S. There are a few turkeys, but I have only run across one myself. Hope this newsgroup helps. — Joan Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don’t have film.

Response:

joanns…@aol.com (JoannScan) wrote in message … > A Dr. with MS. So at least you can understand the technical lingo What about > Procarin? It sounds so good but i can’t find a physician who will prescribe > for me. If it doesn’t work for me no loss, right? Any suggestions on finding > a physician who will stick his/her neck out?

Here is a site on procarin which indicates it contains histamine and caffeine. But who knows what other ingrediants or bioavailability (how well mixed)being a non-regulated (not FDA approved) treatment. This alternative therapy might fit into the area of bee venom treatment(which has not borne out in recent clinical trials) and the caffeine may just help with fatigue: http://www.themedicineshoppe.on.ca/procarin_home.htm It appears to be an alternative treatment and I cannot provide medical advice on the appropriateness of use, nor point to any clinical trial data which is needed for FDA approval. This is the most likely reason for physicians will not prescribe. There are many "alternative treatments" out there but I am not sure I would buy into them unless they underwent clinical trial study success. Best to bring it to your attention of your neurologist prior to starting any non-MS and Neurological Societys’ endorsed treatments.

Response:

roy…@aol.com (Roygus) wrote in message … > Gary, > When you practiced was it in/near San Francisco? My neuro says he knows but has > lost contact with a neuro who has MS that I might like to speak with regarding > dietary issues. My neuro says that this other neuro belileves he has had some > success with dietary modifications Are you possibly that man? > Roy

Roy, afraid only time I spent in San Fran was with the Army. I would like to learn more what dietary modifications people feel are successful. I have not seen much in clinical trial studies on this subject and MS. Last, I do take antioxidant type vitamin supplementation recommended and prescribed by my previous neurologists and rehab specialist: B2, folate, vitamin c (also for bladder acidity and neurogenic bladder), Isonine, and vitamin D/Calcium With all the above there can be side-effects and always recommend discussing with your private neurologist prior to starting.

Response:

gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote in message … > … If your physician does not perform a thorough > neurological exam at each visit, does not give the time to listen to > you, or does not keep up with the clinical literature and latest > conference information, find another neurologist. This is why I am on > my third neurologist.

Gary, or anyone who can help, What would a thorough neurological exam entail. I was diagnosed based on two relapses and two MRIs. No other tests were done. At my follow ups no additional tests were done – just questions and answers about how I was feeling. I was diagnosed in May and I’m preparing to start taking Copaxone and having a hard time feeling comfortable about it. What other tests might be needed/helpful? Relapse one was loss of feeling on my left side (arm and legs, two fingers were worst and feelng in them has not returned). Second relapse was vertigo – and worsening of eyesight. What if there’s really an entrapped nerve in my arm (ulnar), what if the worsening of eyesight was expected (I’ve always had eyesight problems), and the vertigo was related to some other balance/inner ear issue (I’m hearing a drum pounding in the left ear when on the phone or surrounded by noise)? What if the plaques on my brain are related to something other than MS? My grandfather had Parkinson’s – could it be that instead? I was diagnosed with EDS as well so that would account for pain and fatigue. Not sure what else, other than MS, would explain the memory and thinking problems. Sorry to go on like this. I’m really struggling. It’s not that I’m unwilling to accept the diagnoses. Actually I’m happy to… if it’s the right one. I just want to be sure – is that possible? Thanks for listening. Sue

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joan Carter wrote in message … > On 20 Aug 2001 02:19:18 -0700, gfort…@yhti.net (Gary) wrote: > }I am now retired due to my disability and due to my continual > }relapsing condition cannot answer personal email questions. Join > }medscape.com > }It is free and is provides useful clinical information. A clinically > }informed patient is a well armed patient. > Gary, you are welcome here. I will not send you email questions. > It is good to get your input though. I feel very lucky with my > physicians, general practitioner and neurologist. Hmm, wonder if the > Canadians are more interested in M.S. There are a few turkeys, but I > have only run across one myself. Hope this newsgroup helps. > — > Joan > Everyone has a photographic memory. Some just don’t have film.

Joan, glad you found the right blend of physicians. It is not uncommon I understand for MS patients to look around till they find the right doctor. Being a physician is even harder, especially when you challenge their knowledge and treatment options

Response:

I am a physician with MS, probably reaching secondary progressive. Bottom line is that I have found few physicians, even neurologists, keeping up to date in the latest information on the subject. I am on my 3rd neurologist since my diagnosis in 1998 who is now using pulse dose therapy(IV prednisone therapy) which is discussed in the recent American and European conference information. What is most enlightening is that IV steroids may delay demylination contrary to previous clinical outcomes. Also Rebif shows better outcomes in multicenter clinical trials than avonex. Push your congressman and FDA for approval of this medication in the USA because avonex has single drug approval from the FDA. In fact, copaxone and avonex are not approved some places overseas while rebif is. This will be a major political issue, in my humble opinion. Push your doctor to keep up on this disease, and the current treatment options and diagnostic testing because the research is moving ahead and changing rapidly. If your physician does not perform a thorough neurological exam at each visit, does not give the time to listen to you, or does not keep up with the clinical literature and latest conference information, find another neurologist. This is why I am on my third neurologist. I am now retired due to my disability and due to my continual relapsing condition cannot answer personal email questions. Join medscape.com It is free and is provides useful clinical information. A clinically informed patient is a well armed patient. Hope this information helps. Gary European Conference July, 2001: http://www.medscape.com/Medscape/CNO/2001/WCNCME/PrintDay.cfm?confere… 123&day_num=1 A Global Perspective on Multiple Sclerosis Patricia K. Coyle, MD, Syed Rizvi, MD, MBBS The 17th World Congress of Neurology included a wealth of presentations about multiple sclerosis (MS). The scope of information provided a truly global perspective on the investigations into the pathophysiology, epidemiology, and management of MS. MS Main Theme The day-long MS Main Theme section involved 10 presentations comprising a broad spectrum of topics ranging from genetic epidemiology to rehabilitation, and included a case discussion. Genetics Dr. D.A.S. Compston, from Cambridge, UK, discussed the genetics of MS.[1] He noted that there are genes associated with increased disease risk, as well as disease severity, and reviewed a number of candidate genes involving immune/inflammatory, trophic, and CNS factors. MS shows genetic heterogeneity, so linked genes are likely to differ between distinct MS subgroups. It will be critical to identify and examine meaningful subsets for gene analysis. Immunopathology Dr. H. Lassman,[2] from Vienna, Austria, reviewed his work on immunopathologic heterogeneity in MS, which focuses on the pathology of active brain plaques based on degree of inflammation, presence of antibody/activated complement, oligodendrocyte loss, and remyelination. These observations have been made on a relatively small dataset; many of the brain samples came from patients with an atypical presentation. This raises concern about the ultimate generalization of this cut-and-dry 4-pattern division. His presentation stimulated a provocative discussion about whether ischemic injury could be a critical factor in the distal oligodendrogliopathy pattern III. Axon damage occurs during active demyelination, most likely due to a release of toxic factors by macrophages, the most plentiful cell population within active lesions. Axon damage also occurs in chronic inactive plaques, which show no remyelination, implying 2 distinct mechanisms. Dr. H. Wekerle,[3] from Munich, Germany reviewed the immunopathogenesis of MS. In addition to discussing the role for autoreactive T cells, local glia, macrophages, and myelin-specific B cells, he emphasized the growing appreciation of the importance of neurons, which help to regulate local immune reactions within the central nervous system (CNS) microenvironment. A related study[4] evaluated the role of apoptosis (programmed cell death) in removing autoreactive T cells. Activated T cells were examined in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and serum of patients with MS, patients with other neurologic disease, and healthy controls. CSF T cells from MS patients showed much higher levels of survivin (an antiapoptosis protein). Survivin levels were also elevated (although less marked) in peripheral blood T cells of patients with MS. These findings were interpreted to indicate impaired apoptosis in MS, which could play a role in allowing an ongoing immune attack against the CNS. Axonal Conduction Dr. K. Smith,[5] from London, UK, discussed the role of axonal conduction in MS. Axonal conduction can be impaired by demyelination, inflammation, or degeneration of the axon itself. Inflammatory factors such as nitric oxide, the pentapeptide QYNAD, and ion channel antibodies can produce reversible conduction block. Conduction block can be circumvented by insertion of sodium channels into the axolemma and development of internodal excitability. When demyelination is severe, or when axons degenerate, permanent conduction loss occurs. Axon structure and function is an exciting area that will provide a new therapeutic target for development over the next few years. Animal Models, Imaging Techniques, Future Therapies Others in this Main Theme section discussed the mouse model of Pelizaeus-Merzbacher disease, which involves mutations in the proteolipid protein gene;[6] newer magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) techniques (MR spectroscopy, magnetization transfer imaging, diffusion-weighted and diffusion-tensor imaging), which allow detection of microscopic changes in normal appearing brain tissue;[7] and creative healthcare services.[8] Dr. J. Kesselring[9] from Valens, Switzerland, emphasized the beneficial role of rehabilitation in MS and reviewed several studies which showed that physical exercise programs could improve both physiologic and psychologic measures. The final 2 papers focussed on current and future disease-modifying therapies.[10,11] The emphasis on early treatment of MS is increasing, even in the European community. Dr. J. Noseworthy,[11] from Rochester, Minnesota, covered a wide range of new approaches to MS that are under evaluation. He also considered the difficulty of performing blinded placebo-controlled trials in an era of accepted and widely used therapeutics. Drug Therapies The EVIDENCE Study Does the amount and frequency of interferon (IFN) beta-1a dosing affect efficacy? Results of the Evidence for Interferon Dose-effect: European-North American Comparative Efficacy (EVIDENCE) study,[12] a comparative head-to-head trial of 2 interferon beta-1a products (high-dose Rebif, 44 mcg given subcutaneously 3 times a week vs Avonex 30 mcg given intramuscularly once a week), were reported during the Late-Breaking News Section on Friday. This ongoing study involves 56 centers (36 in the US) and 677 relapsing MS patients (443 from the US). The study runs 48 weeks, however, the primary outcome (proportion of relapse-free patients) and main secondary outcome (number of combined unique active T1- and T2-weighted contrast lesions on brain MRI) involved assessment at 24 weeks (6 months). Although patients and treating physicians were not blinded to treatment (this was felt to be impractical), the primary outcome was determined by a blinded evaluating physician, and all MRI readings were blinded. Therefore, both the primary and main secondary outcomes are based on blinded assessments. At 6 months, the proportion of relapse-free patients was 74.9% in the Rebif arm vs 63.3% in the Avonex arm (P = .005), a 32% relative reduction in the proportion of Rebif treated patients with relapses. Patients treated with Rebif had 27% fewer relapses (P = .022), 47% fewer steroid treated relapses (P = .004), and a 37% longer duration to first relapse (P = .001). Combined unique brain MRI lesions averaged 0.8 new lesions per scan in the Rebif-treated group compared with 1.2 new lesions per scan with Avonex (P < .0001). The proportion of active MRI scans was 24% in the Rebif group vs 37.3% in the Avonex group (P < .001). Both drugs were well tolerated. Although the Rebif-treated group had more injection-site reactions and laboratory abnormalities in liver enzymes and white blood cell counts, virtually all of these were mild reactions. This is the largest head-to-head comparison of 2 MS disease-modifying therapies. The study provides convincing evidence that high-dose/frequently dosed IFN beta-1a is superior to low-dose/infrequently dosed IFN beta-1a. Steroids In a small study of approximately 80 patients with relapsing MS, half were treated with regular pulses of intravenous methylprednisolone,[13] and half received steroids only at the time of clinical relapse. MRI was examined at baseline and after 5 years. The group who received regular steroids (total steroid dose about 3.5 times that of the control group) showed less brain atrophy and T1-weighted holes on MRI and less disease progression. There was no effect on T2-weighted lesions or relapses. This is a surprising observation. The investigators suggest that pulse steroids may exert a protective effect to limit atrophy. This hypothesis is consistent with an observation made by National Institutes of Health (NIH) investigators that acute treatment with steroids is associated with less reduction in magnetization transfer ratios within acute lesions. Of course the study arms were fairly small, and only 2 MRI scans were done. This is not as convincing as a study involving frequent MRI scans. Nonetheless, it raises intriguing questions about novel steroid benefits for MS. Other Drugs A small study[14] of 15 MS patients reported that treatment with a potassium-channel blocker 4-aminopyridine 10 mg intramuscularly twice daily for 1 month resulted in improvement in cognitive function. … read more »

Response:

Water – New article

admin — Wed, 15 Aug 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Thank GOODNESS for some sanity on the water question! Three or four glasses of water a day is all I can handle and I still get up twice a night with just that. I have never had any problem with kidney stones. I’m not all that physically active. And when I have bumped my water to higher levels in the hope that it would help with weight gain it did not. The obsession with keeping hydrated seems to be a Gen X thing along with the love for anything made of Titanium. The only time I’ve ever seen anyone actually dehydrated was after an extreme attack of vomiting and diarrhea. It’s not something you ever forget but it wasn’t something you could fix by drinking water either.

Response:

Good article. Personally, I d =on ‘t like drinking a lot of water, but I came up with what I find to be an acceptable compromise. I make *weak* decaf iced tea, and always have a pitcher in my fridge, I drink a lot. Peter

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought you’ll might like this. Someone sent it to me. Kind of long. LINK CHANGES DAILY WITH NEW NEWS STORY BUT HERE’S THE ONE ON WATER. Click here: Harvard Health Letter – Harvard Health Online Harvard Health Letter August 2001 Nutrition Got Water? We are sometimes told to drink eight 8-ounce glasses of water every day. But that adds up to a water-logging half-gallon each day. The fact is that this stock advice, which is based on some pretty rough assumptions, doesn’t apply to many people. How much water you need to drink varies enormously with the medications you’re taking, how much you exercise, what you eat, the health of your kidneys, and other factors. And some recent research suggests that in older people, that much water may do more harm than good. The benefits Of course our bodies need water. It helps regulate body temperature, aids in respiration, transports nutrients, voids waste, provides lubrication, and gives tissues their structure. By weight, it makes up about 60% of the male and 50% of the female body. By weight, many of our organs are mostly water. For instance, the brain is 75% water. Water on the brain is bad; water in the brain is essential. Drinking plenty of fluids – and water, in particular – does seem to protect us against a few specific diseases and medical conditions. The classic example is kidney stones. Hippocrates told his patients to drink plenty of water to prevent a recurrence, and research has shown that he was right. Drinking plenty of fluids helps prevent constipation. And while it may seem simplistic, high water consumption may cut cancer risk by, essentially, washing carcinogenic substances out of the body before they have a chance to come into contact with vulnerable tissues. In effect, the inside of the bowel and urinary tract are exposed to "outside," potentially toxic substances just like the skin and lining of the respiratory tract are. Using data from a long-term study of 48,000 male health professionals, Harvard researchers reported in the New England Journal of Medicine several years ago that the risk for bladder cancer was 51% lower in those who had at least 6 cups of water per day compared with those who drank less than 1 cup daily. Other fluids were protective, but not as much as water. Several other studies have also found that drinking large quantities of water lowers the risk for colon cancer. These cancer prevention studies have to be weighed against others that show a modest increase in risk for bladder cancer from drinking chlorinated water. Just how reliable these studies are is debatable, however. If the risk is real, then the likely culprits are by-products of the interaction of the chlorine with naturally occurring organic materials. Water drawn from lakes, rivers, and reservoirs has higher levels of organic material in it and, therefore, more of these possibly harmful by-products than does water drawn from underground sources. Keeping in balance Whatever the long-term effects might be, the immediate biological purpose of drinking water is to replace the water we lose. And the amount we lose is heavily influenced by how much we sweat. During a hard workout, an athlete might sweat as much as two quarts of water in an hour, for example. But at normal activity levels, most of us lose about 2-3 cups of water (500-700 milliliters) a day in perspiration. How much water is lost in urine also varies greatly, ranging from 1-2 cups (400-500 milliliters) to a quart and a half (1,500 milliliters) depending mainly on fluid intake but also diet, medications, and the health of the kidneys. Some water is also lost in feces (about 200 milliliters) and in exhaled air. The water intake that offsets these losses comes from three places: biochemical reactions that produce water as a by-product, food, and, of course, drink. The contribution from biochemical reactions is relatively minor (250 milliliters). For the average adult, about another quart (1,000 milliliters) comes from the water contained in food. Many fruits and vegetables are 80%-90% water. Meat is also fairly watery: a 100-gram hamburger patty contains a fifth of a cup (45 milliliters) of water. The rest comes from what we drink. When it established water consumption recommendations over 10 years ago, the National Research Council (NRC) said it was "impossible to set a general water requirement" because it depended so much on activity levels and other factors. So, for "practical purposes," the NRC settled on a sliding scale: 1 milliliter of water for every calorie burned. Therefore, someone burning 2,000 calories per day would need a total of 2,000 milliliters of water. If you subtract the contribution of food and metabolism (1,250 milliliters), the water you would need to get from fluids comes to 750 milliliters, or just 3.1 cups, not 8. But the NRC also said that a higher rate of 1.5 milliliters per calorie burned might be appropriate "to cover variations in activity level, sweating, and solute load." If the 1.5 milliliters standard per calorie is used, then the total water needed is 3,000 milliliters and the daily fluid consumption recommendation comes out to 7.29 cups, which is much closer to, but still not quite, a full 8 cups. Fluid vs. water Do those cups really have to be water? Not really. Water is water, even if it comes in the guise of some other fluid. In fact, researchers often combine water and other drinks to come up with a figure for total fluid intake, rather than for water intake per se. On the other hand, among all the fluids you might drink, water is a great choice. It’s cheap, calorie-free, and filling. And as mentioned, some studies have found benefits from the consumption of water, in particular. Other beverages can be a bad dietary influence. Soda and juice supply water, but they are also Trojan horses for armies of calories. Milk might be better, but unless it’s skim milk, you’ll be introducing saturated fat. The ingredients of some drinks also have a pronounced – and sometimes deleterious – effect on how the body handles the water they supply. The prime example: beverages containing alcohol or caffeine. Both are diuretics, agents that promote urination, so while alcoholic beverages, coffee, and caffeine-containing teas are water-based, they also drain the body of water. Water needs of older people There is some debate about how much water older people should drink. For years, the paramount concern has been dehydration, which can cause everything from delirium to constipation. Older people "forget" to drink because the sensation of being thirsty ebbs with age. Several years ago, researchers came up with a special food pyramid for people over age 70. The base of the pyramid was a recommendation to drink 2 quarts of water per day. Dr. Kenneth Minaker, a Massachusetts General Hospital geriatrician and member of the Harvard Health Letter’s editorial board, counsels many of his patients to think of water as a drug – something that they must "take" to stay healthy. Yet many older people suffer from nocturia, excessive urination at night, which creates or feeds into sleeping problems. High fluid intake can make nocturia worse. These days, many older people also have congestive heart failure, and doctors warn such patients not to drink too much fluid because it can worsen the condition. Some researchers are questioning just how common dehydration is among independent older people because many of the previous studies have been based on hospital or nursing home patients. University of New Mexico School of Medicine researchers published a provocative study in the Journal of Gerontology last year, for example, that found no evidence of dehydration among the subjects who said they drank less than six glasses of water each day. Moreover, a small percentage of older people are prone to hyponatremia, an abnormally low sodium concentration because of too much water in the body. Often it is caused by the kidneys resorbing too much water when they filter the blood. Some pain medications, a bad cough, or nausea can trigger the resorption problems. Other times, hyponatremia is the result of not enough blood reaching the kidneys, which can happen for a variety of reasons, including heart failure and some thyroid conditions. What you should do Half a gallon is a lot of water to guzzle down every day. Should you do it? Maybe. How much water you need to drink depends largely on how active you are. If you’re a runner or a frequent tennis player, half a gallon might not be enough. You certainly need to drink more during these hot summer months because you sweat more. Diet also plays a role. If you eat a lot of fruit and vegetables, you may not need to drink as much because you are getting water in your food. Researchers continue to thrash out the pros and cons of pushing older people to drink lots of water. Dehydration, which can have many serious consequences, is a problem for many. For people with nocturia, heavy fluid intake might make the problem worse. But don’t throw out the drinking with the bath water! Drinking enough water is one of the single best things you can do for your health, especially this time of year. If eight glasses a day seems excessive, try six. Make a habit of drinking a glass of water with and between meals, and you’ ll hit the six-cup-a-day goal with relative

Response:

Wow! Thanks for all of the great info. I’ll print this out and keep it as a reference. I am so hooked on water that I’ll probably continue to drink more than I really need. Take care

temperature, aids in respiration, transports nutrients, voids waste, provides

lubrication, and gives – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tissues their structure. By weight, it makes up about 60% of the male and 50% of the female body. By weight, many of our organs are mostly water. For instance, the brain is 75% water. Water on the brain is bad; water in the brain is essential. Drinking plenty of fluids – and water, in particular – does seem to protect us against a few specific diseases and medical conditions. The classic example is kidney stones. Hippocrates told his patients to drink plenty of water to prevent a recurrence, and research has shown that he was right. Drinking plenty of fluids helps prevent constipation. And while it may seem simplistic, high water consumption may cut cancer risk by, essentially, washing carcinogenic substances out of the body before they have a chance to come into contact with vulnerable tissues. In effect, the inside of the bowel and urinary tract are exposed to "outside," potentially toxic substances just like the skin and lining of the respiratory tract are. Using data from a long-term study of 48,000 male health professionals, Harvard researchers reported in the New England Journal of Medicine several years ago that the risk for bladder cancer was 51% lower in those who had at least 6 cups of water per day compared with those who drank less than 1 cup daily. Other fluids were

protective, but not as – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – much as water. Several other studies have also found that drinking large quantities of water lowers the risk for colon cancer. These cancer prevention studies have to be weighed against others that show a modest increase in risk for bladder cancer from drinking chlorinated water. Just how reliable these studies are is debatable, however. If the risk is real, then the likely culprits are by-products of the interaction of the chlorine with naturally occurring organic materials. Water drawn from lakes, rivers, and reservoirs has higher levels of organic material in it and, therefore, more of these possibly harmful by-products than does water drawn from underground sources. Keeping in balance Whatever the long-term effects might be, the immediate biological purpose of drinking water is to replace the water we lose. And the amount we lose is heavily influenced by how much we sweat. During a hard workout, an athlete might sweat as much as two quarts of water in an hour, for example. But at normal activity levels, most of us lose about 2-3 cups of water (500-700 milliliters) a day in perspiration. How much water is lost in urine also varies greatly, ranging from 1-2 cups (400-500 milliliters) to a quart and a half (1,500 milliliters) depending mainly on fluid intake but also diet, medications, and the health of the kidneys. Some water is also lost in feces (about 200 milliliters) and in exhaled air. The water intake that offsets these losses comes from three places: biochemical reactions that produce water as a by-product, food, and, of course, drink. The contribution from biochemical reactions is relatively minor (250 milliliters). For the average adult, about another quart (1,000 milliliters) comes from the water contained in food. Many fruits and vegetables are 80%-90% water. Meat is also fairly watery: a 100-gram hamburger patty contains a fifth of a cup (45 milliliters) of water. The rest comes from what we drink. When it established water consumption recommendations over 10 years ago, the National Research Council (NRC) said it was "impossible to set a general water requirement" because it depended so much on activity levels and other factors. So, for "practical purposes," the NRC settled on a sliding scale: 1 milliliter of water for every calorie burned. Therefore, someone burning 2,000 calories per day would need a total of 2,000 milliliters of water. If you subtract the contribution of food and metabolism (1,250

milliliters), the water – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you would need to get from fluids comes to 750 milliliters, or just 3.1 cups, not 8. But the NRC also said that a higher rate of 1.5 milliliters per calorie burned might be appropriate "to cover variations in activity level, sweating, and solute load." If the 1.5 milliliters standard per calorie is used, then the total water needed is 3,000 milliliters and the daily fluid consumption recommendation comes out to 7.29 cups, which is much closer to, but still not quite, a full 8 cups. Fluid vs. water Do those cups really have to be water? Not really. Water is water, even if it comes in the guise of some other fluid. In fact, researchers often combine water and other drinks to come up with a figure for total fluid intake, rather than for water intake per se. On the other hand, among all the fluids you might drink, water is a great choice. It’s cheap, calorie-free, and filling. And as mentioned, some studies have found benefits from the consumption of water, in particular. Other beverages can be a bad dietary influence. Soda and juice supply water, but they are also Trojan horses for armies of calories. Milk might be better, but unless it’s skim milk, you’ll be introducing saturated fat. The ingredients of some drinks also have a pronounced – and sometimes deleterious – effect on how the body handles the water they supply. The prime example: beverages containing alcohol or caffeine. Both are diuretics, agents that promote urination, so while alcoholic beverages, coffee, and caffeine-containing teas are water-based, they also drain the body of water. Water needs of older people There is some debate about how much water older people should drink. For years, the paramount concern has been dehydration, which can cause everything from delirium to constipation. Older people "forget" to drink because the sensation of being thirsty ebbs with age. Several years ago, researchers came up with a special food pyramid for people over age 70. The base of the pyramid was a recommendation to drink 2 quarts of water per day. Dr. Kenneth Minaker, a Massachusetts General Hospital geriatrician and member of the Harvard Health Letter’s editorial board, counsels many of his patients to think of water as a drug – something that they must "take" to stay healthy. Yet many older people suffer from nocturia, excessive urination at night, which creates or feeds into sleeping problems. High fluid intake can make nocturia worse. These days, many older people also have congestive heart failure, and doctors warn such patients not to drink too much fluid because it can worsen the condition. Some researchers are questioning just how common dehydration is among independent older people because many of the previous studies have been based on hospital or nursing home patients. University of New Mexico School of Medicine researchers published a provocative study in the Journal of Gerontology last year, for example, that found no evidence of dehydration among the subjects who said they drank less than six glasses of water each day. Moreover, a small percentage of older people are prone to hyponatremia, an abnormally low sodium concentration because of too much water in the body. Often it is caused by the kidneys resorbing too much water when they filter the blood. Some pain medications, a bad cough, or nausea can trigger the resorption problems. Other times, hyponatremia is the result of not enough blood reaching the kidneys, which can happen for a variety of reasons, including heart failure and some thyroid conditions. What you should do Half a gallon is a lot of water to guzzle down every day. Should you do it? Maybe. How much water you need to drink depends largely on how active you are. If you’re a runner or a frequent tennis player, half a gallon might not be enough. You certainly need to drink more during these hot summer months because you sweat more. Diet also plays a role. If you eat a lot of fruit and vegetables, you may not need to drink as much because you are getting water in your food. Researchers continue to thrash out the pros and cons of pushing older people to drink lots of water. Dehydration, which can have many serious consequences, is a problem for many. For people with nocturia, heavy fluid intake might make the problem worse. But don’t throw out the drinking with the bath water! Drinking enough water is one of the single best things you can do for your health, especially this time of year. If eight glasses a day seems excessive, try six. Make a habit of drinking a glass of water with and between meals, and you’ll hit the six-cup-a-day goal with relative ease. Water Content of Some Foods

Response:

Thought you’ll might like this. Someone sent it to me. Kind of long. LINK CHANGES DAILY WITH NEW NEWS STORY BUT HERE’S THE ONE ON WATER. Click here: Harvard Health Letter – Harvard Health Online Harvard Health Letter August 2001 Nutrition Got Water? We are sometimes told to drink eight 8-ounce glasses of water every day. But that adds up to a water-logging half-gallon each day. The fact is that this stock advice, which is based on some pretty rough assumptions, doesn