The mystery(s) of OSA – Anyone else?
Question:
> > Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > > really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just > > cannot sleep…. > FWIW, upon my inquiring, someone at my sleep lab said they do loan out autoPAPx to > fine tune pressure requirements. Knowing this has.is helping me to formulate a > plan of action.
I doublt my little non-city australian sleep lab would even HAVE an autopap… i’ve thought about renting one…. but i was told the waiting list for a rented autopap is basically infinite. Beth in oz
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tal wrote: > > > Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > > > really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i > just > > > cannot sleep…. > > FWIW, upon my inquiring, someone at my sleep lab said they do loan out > autoPAPx to > > fine tune pressure requirements. Knowing this has.is helping me to > formulate a > > plan of action. > I doublt my little non-city australian sleep lab would even HAVE an > autopap… i’ve thought about > renting one…. but i was told the waiting list for a rented autopap is > basically infinite. > Beth in oz
Never know unless you try! Anyone ever check with Joe to see if he would rent/lease one to a person in need?
Response:
"Tal" <ta…@tpg.com.au> wrote: >> BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? >Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of >6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh*
How long has it been? >But…..i do think it’s made some >kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things >that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats >managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me >waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now >without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t >occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally >wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not >sure….it’s just a theory.
It sounds like a good theory, and a sign that you’re getting more deep sleep. 
>Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i >really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just >cannot sleep….
You might do better now that you’re used to the pressure and mask, but I get the feeling that you’re unlikely to qualify for another test any time soon. >Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I.
I’m doing fine. I’m thinking about asking for a re-titration, it’s been 18 months and I seem to be sleeping longer. (But that might just be my way avoiding as much of The Season as possible. <g>) Tom
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tal wrote: > > BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? > > Tom > Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of > 6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh* it’s hard and > frustrating….i just wnat my life back! But…..i do think it’s made some > kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things > that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats > managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me > waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now > without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t > occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally > wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not > sure….it’s just a theory. > Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just > cannot sleep….
FWIW, upon my inquiring, someone at my sleep lab said they do loan out autoPAPx to fine tune pressure requirements. Knowing this has.is helping me to formulate a plan of action. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I. > Beth in Oz
Response:
"Tom Devlin" <tomdev…@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:1qo62u4ovckg83pv630a941qpj96ca2ns5@4ax.com… > "Tal" <ta…@tpg.com.au> wrote: > >> BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? > >Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of > >6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh* > How long has it been?
I’ve been using CPAP (compliant & comfortable from about day 3) since the beginning of September. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >But…..i do think it’s made some > >kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things > >that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats > >managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me > >waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now > >without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t > >occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally > >wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not > >sure….it’s just a theory. > It sounds like a good theory, and a sign that you’re getting more deep > sleep. > >Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i > >really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just > >cannot sleep…. > You might do better now that you’re used to the pressure and mask, but > I get the feeling that you’re unlikely to qualify for another test any > time soon.
I never had a problem with the pressure or mask…….aside from the fact that it was more than two years ago i had my titration – i don’t WANT another test, knowing that i’m not likely to sleep (and they will NOT let you take any kind of sleeping pill in oz before a test – not that i’ve ever taken any kinda sleeping pill anyway) makes it kind of a pointless excercise, especially when it’s an out of town trip… and i can’t drive myself out of town…..so it’s a huge hassle… with the good possibility of it being a time waster due to lack of sleep…… not trying to sound negative…just explaining the situation. I am about to start taking magnesium – in hopes it will ease the morning pain a little….. > >Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I. > I’m doing fine. I’m thinking about asking for a re-titration, it’s > been 18 months and I seem to be sleeping longer. (But that might just > be my way avoiding as much of The Season as possible. <g>) > Tom
I think there’s a lot of us trying to "avoid the season" a bit – i wouldn’t mind so much if it wasn’t so commercialised….
Response:
Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > >> But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. <g> > >Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: > >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate <g>) > Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you > started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you?
You are correct. Up to 2 from 1. FWIW, I can’t remember if I was up to pee 1 or 2 times last night with no ’symptoms’ (as usual; HOWEVER, today at normal wakeup time, I awoke with NO DRY MOUTH and SPASM WAS MINIMAL. ( 1 or 2 on scale of 10). I did go to bed earlier than the night before, so an extra variable again. > >No back spasm or dry mouth either time > So you were still properly hydrated….
Unless there is some kind of time-delay involved in all of the bodies operations. > >At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth. > This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced > nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration.
I agree!!! However, I am once again having a couple symtoms of an enlarged prostate (but I have the prostate of a 20 year old!): a lack of control (a little dribble do ya <g>) and minimal and long-time stream. I will be seeing the proctologist in a week or two and will ask if the suggested bladder problem could also cause this. Wonder what effect OSA might have on prostate, causing it to act like an enlarged prostate. As it was, the internist ‘diagnosed’ enlarged prostate before OSA. (But I have the prostate of a 20 year old. Yes, I am proud of that <g>.) Thanks for your continued help. I am truly grateful. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tom
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >> >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate <g>) >> Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you >> started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you? >You are correct. Up to 2 from 1.
Well, that’s proof that you’re drinking the water. <g> >FWIW, I can’t remember if I was up to pee 1 or 2 times last night with no >’symptoms’ (as usual; HOWEVER, today at normal wakeup time, I awoke with NO DRY >MOUTH and SPASM WAS MINIMAL. ( 1 or 2 on scale of 10).
That’s encouraging, please keep us updated… >> This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced >> nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration. >I agree!!! However, I am once again having a couple symtoms of an enlarged >prostate (but I have the prostate of a 20 year old!):
There’s nothing that says that you can’t have two problems. 
>Wonder what effect OSA might have on prostate, causing it to act like an enlarged >prostate.
I’m not aware of anything besides nocturia, and CPAP usually corrects that. But there’s a _lot_ I don’t know. <g> Tom
Response:
> BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? > Tom
Thanks for asking Tom…. since having my pressure raised to 8cm instead of 6.5cm – i’m still not feeling any better *sigh* it’s hard and frustrating….i just wnat my life back! But…..i do think it’s made some kind of improvment, even if i’m nto feeling better cause i noticed things that usually "ake me up"- don’t necessarily do so anymoren – like the cats managing to open the bedroom door, that kind of hting would always have me waking up and yellin at them to quit it LOL… but they can do it now without me being aware, which makes me think that perhaps the apneas aren’t occurring at least as frequently as they were….. cuase I probably normally wake up so easily cause i’m half awake from an event anyway…..but i’m not sure….it’s just a theory. Sometimes i wish i could try an autopap….. to find out what pressure i really need, sleep study is prtty much a waste of time for me cause i just cannot sleep…. Anyhow, that’s my update…..hope you’re doing better than I. Beth in Oz
Response:
Whoops! Be seeing urologist, not proctologist. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC wrote: > Tom Devlin wrote: > > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > > >> But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. <g> > > >Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: > > >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate <g>) > > Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you > > started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you? > You are correct. Up to 2 from 1. > FWIW, I can’t remember if I was up to pee 1 or 2 times last night with no > ’symptoms’ (as usual; HOWEVER, today at normal wakeup time, I awoke with NO DRY > MOUTH and SPASM WAS MINIMAL. ( 1 or 2 on scale of 10). > I did go to bed earlier than the night before, so an extra variable again. > > >No back spasm or dry mouth either time > > So you were still properly hydrated…. > Unless there is some kind of time-delay involved in all of the bodies operations. > > >At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth. > > This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced > > nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration. > I agree!!! However, I am once again having a couple symtoms of an enlarged > prostate (but I have the prostate of a 20 year old!): a lack of control (a little > dribble do ya <g>) and minimal and long-time stream. I will be seeing the > proctologist in a week or two and will ask if the suggested bladder problem could > also cause this. > Wonder what effect OSA might have on prostate, causing it to act like an enlarged > prostate. As it was, the internist ‘diagnosed’ enlarged prostate before OSA. (But > I have the prostate of a 20 year old. Yes, I am proud of that <g>.) > Thanks for your continued help. I am truly grateful. > > Tom
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >> But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. <g> >Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: >Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate <g>)
Is this up from once (after the dry mouth started but before you started drinking more water) or did I misunderstand you? >No back spasm or dry mouth either time
So you were still properly hydrated…. >At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth.
This is really starting to suggest dehydration due to apnea induced nocturia, maybe all you need is a re-titration. Tom
Response:
"Tal" <ta…@tpg.com.au> wrote: >Of course, I suggested dehydration back on the 17th on your other thread >*grin*
That’s starting to look like an awfully good call. BTW, how are things going at the new pressure? Tom
Response:
Tom Devlin wrote:
[snipped] > But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. <g> > Tom
Didn’t get to bed until 2:30am this morning, then same strange pattern: Up twice to pee (less keystrokes than urinate <g>) No back spasm or dry mouth either time At 10:30pm, I awoke with back spasm and a level 5*** dry mouth. My plan is to keep on drinking (water, of course), see what happens in the next few days, and then get back to the sleep doc. Hereafter I will only post progress (or lack thereof) and any other unusual occurrences. *** Desert Dry Cement Dry 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
Response:
Of course, I suggested dehydration back on the 17th on your other thread *grin* Beth in oz "NormC" <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3C1FB0CF.CDE76CFD@socal.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Tom Devlin wrote: > > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > > that could dry you out during the night? > Holy crap!!! SUPER thanks. I HAVE NEVER drank/drunk(?) enough fluids. My lack of > fluids has been hit upon a couple times here on the NG, in particuoar with regard > to the accumulation of mucous in my throat and my concern for its effect on my OSA. > I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding > my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime > (even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also > what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; > thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep. > There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA. > Then he told me to drink more water because of my throat problem. > Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says > DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly > seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and > not cement dry this morning! > Hold it a minute. Alarm just popped up. Gulp, gulp,. gulp,gulp. > > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > > during the night, > Great suggestion. I am going to do that. > > let us know if anything changes. > For certain. I always hate to have anyone else go through similar miseries… > because of my kind of ignorance. > > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most > people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then > attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a > "postulate". > So, Tom, I am tickled to have you and any and everyone else guess away!!!!!! > Thanks again. > > >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > > >urinate once during the night.) > > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > > >cause this. > > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > > >mouth. > > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > > >anything remotely similar. > > >I do have some concerns!!! > > >Thanks.
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >> I think we may have a horse<->cart reversal here. If you’re >> dehydrated, from whatever cause, then no (practical) amount of >> humidity can deal with the problem. >I think we may have a semantics problem here <g>. I was reluctant to use the word >"dehydrated" because my situation doesn’t really fit my understanding of >dehydration. I do not believe I an dehydrated – dehydrated, just not enough >fluids, but not little enough to be dehydrated so….
There are degrees of dehydration, and dry mouth is a sign of mild dehydration. >Seems reasonable to think >that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, and then, indeed, having >your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose AND MOUTH could dry >everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if you are already >somewhat dehydrated? Does this change your thinking about my situation?
Norm, I just don’t know. You’re getting the same amount of water no matter where it comes in. I’m not sure how the surface area of your nasal passages compares to that of your mouth, it seems unlikely that you’re breathing through both your mouth and nose, but I’ve seen nothing that says that people using full face masks need more humidity. >Let’s revisit the fact that my humidifier was dry for the first time in a year, the >first night I used full mask. Does this seem consistent with your thinking?
That could be because you were mouth breathing with your nasal mask, there’d have been no airflow through the chamber during those periods so the level wouldn’t have dropped as much. OTOH, you’ve been playing with the temperature, you may have just set it slightly higher. And my water consumption varies from night to night, even at the same setting. Once again, I just don’t know. But I’m _really_ looking forward to hearing how last night went. <g> Tom
Response:
Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), and proctologist (back not related to his end). Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.) Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can cause this. HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ mouth. Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced anything remotely similar. I do have some concerns!!! Thanks.
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof).
A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds like you also need to urinate less frequently. Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything that could dry you out during the night? Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up during the night, let us know if anything changes. Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), >and proctologist (back not related to his end). >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to >urinate once during the night.) >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can >cause this. >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ >mouth. >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced >anything remotely similar. >I do have some concerns!!! >Thanks.
Response:
Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > >I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding > >my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime > >(even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also > >what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; > >thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep. > Was this about the same time that the dry mouth started? (I’d just > _love_ to find a "smoking gun". <g>)
Can’t answer the specific question; however, I think the overall sequence has been like this (starting 3 months ago): (1) already had back spasms, (2) desert dry mouth in morning, zombie all day, (3) used chin-strap unsuccessfully, (4) started Provigil to keep awake, (5) started Flomax to keep asleep. No water at bedtime after (2) and before (5). Thanks to your asking the question, I see that I actually started on Flomax more recently than Provigil. Have to try and take a look at it’s side effects. > >There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA. > Right, and remember the apnea->heart->protine->brain->urinate link > that Charlie alerted us to. It may be that your dry mouth is really > the result of a too low pressure, and we’ve been barking up the wrong > tree(s) all along. This makes even more sense when we consider that > you’re also experiencing daytime sleepiness, you may be dumping all > available water on your first (apnea induced) bathroom run, this could > leave you dehydrated for the rest of the night and might explain both > the dry mouth and morning back ache.
Hopefully we’ll know more about the dehydration aspect of this shortly. I still may not be drinking enough, but I’m drinking a helluva lot more than I have for a very long time. > >Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says > >DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly > >seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and > >not cement dry this morning! > How was your back this morning?
It was there, but I don’t recall that it was especially bad. Maybe it was a little better than usual. So I started drinking water yesterday and this morning both my back and mouth were a little better!! I’ve had more water today than yesterday and am looking forward to tomorrow morning. Heaven knows how many trips I may need to get up to pee, even if I don’t drink anything after 9:00PM. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > >As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most > >people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then > >attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a > >"postulate". > Cool, a fifty-cent word for "guessing". > Tom (Who’s just postulating, as usual.)
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, >and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose >AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if >you are already somewhat dehydrated? Mike? Tom?
I think we may have a horse<->cart reversal here. If you’re dehydrated, from whatever cause, then no (practical) amount of humidity can deal with the problem. More in the other thread… Tom
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding >my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime >(even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also >what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; >thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep.
Was this about the same time that the dry mouth started? (I’d just _love_ to find a "smoking gun". <g>) >There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA.
Right, and remember the apnea->heart->protine->brain->urinate link that Charlie alerted us to. It may be that your dry mouth is really the result of a too low pressure, and we’ve been barking up the wrong tree(s) all along. This makes even more sense when we consider that you’re also experiencing daytime sleepiness, you may be dumping all available water on your first (apnea induced) bathroom run, this could leave you dehydrated for the rest of the night and might explain both the dry mouth and morning back ache. >Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says >DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly >seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and >not cement dry this morning!
How was your back this morning? >> Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) >As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most >people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then >attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a >"postulate".
Cool, a fifty-cent word for "guessing". Tom (Who’s just postulating, as usual.)
Response:
Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > >Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, > >and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose > >AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if > >you are already somewhat dehydrated? Mike? Tom? > I think we may have a horse<->cart reversal here. If you’re > dehydrated, from whatever cause, then no (practical) amount of > humidity can deal with the problem.
I think we may have a semantics problem here <g>. I was reluctant to use the word "dehydrated" because my situation doesn’t really fit my understanding of dehydration. I do not believe I an dehydrated – dehydrated, just not enough fluids, but not little enough to be dehydrated so…. Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if you are already somewhat dehydrated? Does this change your thinking about my situation? Let’s revisit the fact that my humidifier was dry for the first time in a year, the first night I used full mask. Does this seem consistent with your thinking? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> More in the other thread… > Tom
Response:
NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: >I’ve been getting indications of new posts, say 6, and only being able to find/read >something less than 6. Because of the importance of this subject to me, and >hopefully others, would you be so kind as to also reply directly to me as well as >the NG? I want to be sure that I don’t miss any in this thread.
I see that all the time, especially when not much time has elapsed since my last check. I think the news server gets confused about which messages it’s already sent. Remember that you can always double-check against the Google archives. At the time you made this post there were six messages in the thread, one from Mike, one from me, and four from you. You replied to both Mike and I, so I doubt you’re missing anything Posted and mailed, this message only. Tom
Response:
I’ve been getting indications of new posts, say 6, and only being able to find/read something less than 6. Because of the importance of this subject to me, and hopefully others, would you be so kind as to also reply directly to me as well as the NG? I want to be sure that I don’t miss any in this thread. TIA> – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC wrote: > Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > and proctologist (back not related to his end). > Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > urinate once during the night.) > Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > cause this. > HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > mouth. > Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > anything remotely similar. > I do have some concerns!!! > Thanks.
Response:
Lori&Mike wrote: > Tom, some good guessing! Norm, I’ve noticed that any type of soda a few > hours before bed messes with my bladder.
Well… do YOU have the prostate of a 20 year old (like me)? <g> > And when I have the rare long sleep > (more than about 3 hours without getting up) my back hurts also. Try a > pillow under your knees to keep your legs from being straight (should relive > your back some).
Thanks. That’s something else I will try later. Only one experiment at a time. Otherwise won’t know which variable change did it. However, I had back problems pre-teen, got rear-ended in a little Austin-Healy Sprite 25-30 years ago, suffered severe pain OUT OF BED for 7 years, and then the pain went away. What I am experiencing is not what I would call pain, because even when it is ‘over’ my back generally doesn’t hurt. BTW, I distinguish between pain, ache, irritation, strain, etc. I don’t really have any of these. > Dry mouth thing has me stumped unless its just plain old > mouth breathing from nasal congestion. Happy holidays to you and all.
Seems reasonable to think that using a full face mask, because of mouth breathing, and then, indeed, having your mouth open, that the continuous air flow through nose AND MOUTH could dry everything out? Even with a heated humidifier, particularly if you are already somewhat dehydrated? Mike? Tom? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Mike > "Tom Devlin" <tomdev…@ameritech.net> wrote in message > news:p99v1uoil2hg8eg31le8f7l208bokasmkc@4ax.com… > > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have > had an > > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or > may not be > > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > > that could dry you out during the night? > > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > > during the night, let us know if anything changes. > > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > > >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I > started to have > > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back > problem. > > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old > orthopedist (try > > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take > any more > > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital > check shows > > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of > things), > > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 > minutes, wake > > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake > ~ 3 hours > > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get > up to > > >urinate once during the night.) > > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to > urinate. > > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to > how OSA can > > >cause this. > > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise > for the > > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes > me. I am > > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter > is that > > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does > not > > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get > some relief. > > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start > walking, it > > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did > not have > > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. > However, at > > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a > ‘desert dry’ > > >mouth. > > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and > no cement > > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has > experienced > > >anything remotely similar. > > >I do have some concerns!!! > > >Thanks.
Response:
Tom, some good guessing! Norm, I’ve noticed that any type of soda a few hours before bed messes with my bladder. And when I have the rare long sleep (more than about 3 hours without getting up) my back hurts also. Try a pillow under your knees to keep your legs from being straight (should relive your back some). Dry mouth thing has me stumped unless its just plain old mouth breathing from nasal congestion. Happy holidays to you and all. Mike "Tom Devlin" <tomdev…@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:p99v1uoil2hg8eg31le8f7l208bokasmkc@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > that could dry you out during the night? > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > during the night, let us know if anything changes. > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.) > >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > >urinate once during the night.) > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > >cause this. > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > >mouth. > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > >anything remotely similar. > >I do have some concerns!!! > >Thanks.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tom Devlin wrote: > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote: > >Time for a new thread. A ‘cement mouth’ is mysterious enough, but I have had an > >additional mystery that is clearly related to being in bed, and may or may not be > >related to quality sleep (or lack thereof). > A quick Google search turned up a number of links between dehydration > and lower back ache. Dehydration is also implicated in dry mouth, and > this "(Now I only get up to urinate once during the night.)" sounds > like you also need to urinate less frequently. > Have you been taking any sort of diuretic? Upped your tea or coffee > consumption? Decreased your general fluid consumption? Started > sleeping under more covers, or with an electric blanket? Anything > that could dry you out during the night?
Holy crap!!! SUPER thanks. I HAVE NEVER drank/drunk(?) enough fluids. My lack of fluids has been hit upon a couple times here on the NG, in particuoar with regard to the accumulation of mucous in my throat and my concern for its effect on my OSA. I’ve gotten some conflicting direction from my internist (so what’s new?) regarding my lack of fluids. First he told me to stop taking some of my pills at bedtime (even though that is when he originally told me to take my niaspan, which is also what the drug insert says), so that I didn’t drink right before going to bed; thereby reducing the need for night time urination, causing break in my sleep. There is an erroneous assumption here. IT MAY NOT MATTER IF IT RESULTS FROM OSA. Then he told me to drink more water because of my throat problem. Anyhoo, yesterday I set a recurring 45 minute alarm on my trusty ‘puter that says DRINK, and I drank 4 or 5 swallows every 45 mintues during the day. It certainly seems to be a possibility that this is the reason my mouth was only desert dry and not cement dry this morning! Hold it a minute. Alarm just popped up. Gulp, gulp,. gulp,gulp. > Try drinking a glass of water before bed and again when you get up > during the night,
Great suggestion. I am going to do that. > let us know if anything changes.
For certain. I always hate to have anyone else go through similar miseries… because of my kind of ignorance. > Tom (Who’s just guessing, as usual.)
As you probably know, what is referred to as the "Scientific Method", which most people learn from elementary geometry, calls for making a ‘guess’ and then attempting to prove or disprove it. As I recall, it was word statement called a "postulate". So, Tom, I am tickled to have you and any and everyone else guess away!!!!!! Thanks again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >At about the same time (it could have been exactly the same time) I started to have > >a dry mouth (three months ago), I started to have a very mysterious back problem. > >I mention to start that I have discussed the problem with my old orthopedist (try > >some liquid potassium), my internist (potassium level is fine, can’t take any more > >because of other meds, get an MRI), urologist (ultrasound and digital check shows > >prostate of 20 year old, could be bladder, back not related to his end of things), > >and proctologist (back not related to his end). > >Back problem: I go to bed (with CPAP, of course), fall asleep in 15 minutes, wake > >in ~3 hours to urininate, do so, return to bed, asleep n 15 minutes, wake ~ 3 hours > >later to urinate, do so, return to sleep in 15 minutes. (Now I only get up to > >urinate once during the night.) > >Note that an enlarged prostate IS NOT the cause of my awakening to urinate. > >Previously a link was provided on the NG to a medical explanation as to how OSA can > >cause this. > >HOWEVER, in about two hours (NO ALARM CLOCK), either as I awaken to arise for the > >day, I get a significant lower back spasm OR I get the spasm and it wakes me. I am > >too out of it to know which, even after 3 months. The significant matter is that > >IT DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN I AWAKE TO URINATE – NEVER EVER! The spasm does not > >continue to get worse as I begin to move. As I roll to my side I get some relief. > >As I sit up I get some more relief, and most of the time when I start walking, it > >pretty much goes away. Mostly no residual effect during the day > >I am posting this now because last night, when I awoke to urinate, I did not have > >the back spasm, as normal (normal?) NOR did I have a ‘cement mouth’. However, at > >the same time that I had the back spasm this morning, I also had a ‘desert dry’ > >mouth. > >Repeating – When I got up during the night to urinate, no back spasm and no cement > >mouth. However, when I awoke to the back spasm, I had desert mouth. > >It sure would be nice to know if anyone else who reads this NG has experienced > >anything remotely similar. > >I do have some concerns!!! > >Thanks.
