Sleeping Disorder » Nocturnal Myoclonus

How does 20 percent of the population of the world get away with consuming 80 percent of the world's resources and still manage to sleep at night

admin — Tue, 30 Sep 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

You were lied to Kelly. The same predictions have been going on for over 200 years. Strangely there is more food and a higher standard of living during a time we should all be dead. Technology, yes the same thing the rant against while teaching you this crap, has always come through to save mankind. Of course there has always been resistance to the technology, just as there is today. Expand your sources of information and question what they tell you. You’re in a closed environment where decent is not allowed. > Pizza, beer…how will we feed the world? We can start by wasting less > Kelly Moran is a sophomore in ACES. She can be reached at

d…@illinimedia.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:44:45 GMT, Victor Radin wrote: >And as a total aside- the quoting of the text of her article was in >direct violation of Daily Illini copyright and fair use laws.

yawn…afraid not http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html Sec. 107. – Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include – (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors

Response:

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 22:21:13 +0100, jake alt.support.sleep-disorder : – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:34:04 GMT, Victor Radin > wrote: >>In order to properly trace the poster’s ID, you need NOT the NNTP host, >>but the ORIGINATING IP address, which for the most part, does NOT appear >>in the headers of usenet articles, but does in e-mail. >>Vic >>uber-geek and former network admin who knows from such things. >really …? >care to estimate the odds of two users in the same geographic area >posting to the same newsgroup from Canoga Park CA >on the same newsserver.. using Mozilla..the same newsreader..having >the same operating system..etc..etc.. >Pepe Lemoco >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) >Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 >NormC >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) >Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 >odd how "Pepe" has dissapeared don’t you think.. >like he never existed..which of course he didn’t

LOL!

Response:

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:34:04 GMT, Victor Radin wrote: >In order to properly trace the poster’s ID, you need NOT the NNTP host, >but the ORIGINATING IP address, which for the most part, does NOT appear >in the headers of usenet articles, but does in e-mail. >Vic >uber-geek and former network admin who knows from such things.

really …? care to estimate the odds of two users in the same geographic area posting to the same newsgroup from Canoga Park CA on the same newsserver.. using Mozilla..the same newsreader..having the same operating system..etc..etc.. Pepe Lemoco User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 NormC User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 odd how "Pepe" has dissapeared don’t you think.. like he never existed..which of course he didn’t

Response:

On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 16:34:04 GMT, Victor Radin alt.support.sleep-disorder : >Hey Norm… I dunno, I’m heading out of town for a week and won’t see >any replies after tonight. Besides, I really and honestly don’t give a >flying rat’s a$$ WHAT some anonymous, faceless, and ignorant speck of >flea poop on the buttocks of aforementioned flying rat says about me.

So why do you like Norm C AKA Pee Pee AKA…

Response:

On Thu, 2 Oct 2003 02:00:06 +1000, "Tal" wrote: >GROW UP YOU FOOL – you’re the biggest idiot i’ve ever come across

you have come across nothing but words on your screen down under.. > cause you >can’t seem to realise we all know who you are!

you clearly do not…whoever you imagine your "we " to be… > I don’t care what anyone >else does, it’s YOU that’s the problem here…

did someone die and make you the moderator of a public unmoderated group..? Thats what it is you know.. and if people with sleep disorders wish to post to it ..share support..meet fellow suffers …they will whether you like them or not.. you petty vindictive sheila.. It takes far more to create a moderated group with you in charge than simply copying a FAQ to a private webpage..and altering it at will to suit your petty personal designs.. If you want a moderated group go to alt.config and propose it.. don’t be too suprised if they tell you you are totally and utterly unsuitable,petty and personal though.. >…go away…..leave us alone…..go bother someone else…we don’t want you here – get it????????

as long as you are fomenting pack attacks on people with sleep disorders who do not accept your spurious authority ..that is unlikely If by we you mean your dubious friends and their sockpuppets ..go tell it to the kangaroos. This is not your private club ..never was never will be .. you are one poster to an unmoderated newsgroup amongst millions.. get used to it.. you destroyed the last shred of your credibility when you doctored your private webpage..

Response:

GROW UP YOU FOOL – you’re the biggest idiot i’ve ever come across cause you can’t seem to realise we all know who you are! I don’t care what anyone else does, it’s YOU that’s the problem here……go away…..leave us a lone…..go bother someone else…we don’t want you here – get it????????

Response:

In article <3F7A2404.20…@socal.rr.com>, no…@socal.rr.com says… > Victor Radin wrote: > > In article <3F79CDCE.9090…@socal.rr.com>, no…@socal.rr.com says… > >>Who is Keiiy Moran? What is ACES? > Thanks, Vic. I found those same things by GOOGLEing, which told > me nothing. So that’s why I asked the OP. At least this time, > she will have to call you the control freak, not me . > Can ya take it?

Hey Norm… I dunno, I’m heading out of town for a week and won’t see any replies after tonight. Besides, I really and honestly don’t give a flying rat’s a$$ WHAT some anonymous, faceless, and ignorant speck of flea poop on the buttocks of aforementioned flying rat says about me. And (to bring this back to topic) since I’ve been sleeping so well lately, I have enough energy to do something much more useful with my time than worry about being called names. Oh, BTW… for the "oh-so-smart" person who thinks that a poster can be traced by their NNTP host- proves the old cliche that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The NNTP host mentioned as "proof" that Norm is two people is incorrect. That host is used by EVERY RoadRunner client in a particular geographic area. In order to properly trace the poster’s ID, you need NOT the NNTP host, but the ORIGINATING IP address, which for the most part, does NOT appear in the headers of usenet articles, but does in e-mail. Vic uber-geek and former network admin who knows from such things.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:45:44 GMT, NormC wrote: >Xref: news alt.support.sleep-disorder:133137 >Path: sjc72.webusenet.com!sjc70.webusenet.com!chi1.webusenet.com!news.webusenet.c om!peer02.cox.net!cox.net!news-server.columbus.rr.com!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!ne ws2.kc.rr.com!twister.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750!not-for-mail >Message-ID: <3F7A2404.20…@socal.rr.com> >From: NormC >User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 >X-Accept-Language: en-us, en >MIME-Version: 1.0 >Newsgroups: alt.support.sleep-disorder >Subject: Re: How does 20 percent of the population of the world get away with > consuming 80 percent of the world’s resources and still manage to sleep at > night >References: <3F79CDCE.9090…@socal.rr.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed >Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >Lines: 34 >Date: Wed, 01 Oct 2003 00:45:44 GMT >NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.27.185.209 >X-Complaints-To: ab…@rr.com >X-Trace: twister.socal.rr.com 1064969144 66.27.185.209 (Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:45:44 PDT) >NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 30 Sep 2003 17:45:44 PDT >Organization: RoadRunner – West > At least this time, >she will have to call you the control freak, not me .

give it a rest…whatever anybody thinks it is a matter of documented public record that you are a control freak and a hypocrite.. what?..no sockpuppets to back up your personal attacks today NormC or should I say Pepe Lemoco? > But there is one person posting >here with multiple ids,

sure there is Norm and it is YOU! can you spell hypocrite? knew you could Xref: news alt.support.sleep-disorder:132819 Path: news.astraweb.com!news-small.astraweb.com!news-out.spamkiller.net!propagato r2-maxim!news-in.superfeed.net!news-west.rr.com!news.rr.com!cyclone.kc.rr.c om!cyclone2.kc.rr.com!news2.kc.rr.com!twister.socal.rr.com.POSTED!53ab2750! not-for-mail Message-ID: <3F6F409E.5050203@netscape.net> From: Pepe Lemoco User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Win98; en-US; rv:1.0.2) Gecko/20030208 Netscape/7.02 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.support.sleep-disorder Subject: Re: nocturnal myoclonus or just weird? References: <17…@www.tosleep.com> <3F6939A2.3000…@comcast.net> <3F6AB1FA.7090…@comcast.net> <9m9smvomg34kl4r6ets0d419vrak4pf…@4ax.com> <3F6EF103.9060…@comcast.net> <0c5umvc5dvijdhvpi6o8c4i73a4tacc…@4ax.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 70 Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 18:37:28 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.27.185.209 X-Complaints-To: ab…@rr.com X-Trace: twister.socal.rr.com 1064255848 66.27.185.209 (Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:37:28 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2003 11:37:28 PDT Organization: RoadRunner – West >Trying to make the innocent and the newbies think that there are >many people who agree with you, by posting under many, many >different ids is really sick, but also quite amusing. It give us >a picture of your reality, or rather lack thereof.

yeah.. you got that one right NormC/PepeLemoco and whatever other nyms you post lies and threats under.. As Alex kindly pointed out they all come out with NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.27.185.209 You are BUSTED..get used to it..

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Victor Radin wrote: > In article <3F79CDCE.9090…@socal.rr.com>, no…@socal.rr.com says… >>Who is Keiiy Moran? What is ACES? > As found with a google search: Kelly Moran (male) is either a 2-time > National Bike Racing champion, and ACES refers to a particular speedway > or more likely based on the writing and content Kelly Moran is a > sophomore female from the University of Illinois who writes a column for > the Daily Illinini. In reality, Kelly is now a Junior at U of I, still > writing for the Daily. > As to the content- the original message was not sleep related, but > rather little Kelly’s view of the world as viewed from the eyes of a > young adult(?) at one of the biggest party schools in the state. > Perhaps she would do better to stick to her usual drink, party, have fun > writing and leave the ‘messages’ to the editorial staff. > And as a total aside- the quoting of the text of her article was in > direct violation of Daily Illini copyright and fair use laws. > Vic

Thanks, Vic. I found those same things by GOOGLEing, which told me nothing. So that’s why I asked the OP. At least this time, she will have to call you the control freak, not me . Can ya take it?

Response:

In article <3F79CDCE.9090…@socal.rr.com>, no…@socal.rr.com says… > Who is Keiiy Moran? What is ACES?

As found with a google search: Kelly Moran (male) is either a 2-time National Bike Racing champion, and ACES refers to a particular speedway or more likely based on the writing and content Kelly Moran is a sophomore female from the University of Illinois who writes a column for the Daily Illinini. In reality, Kelly is now a Junior at U of I, still writing for the Daily. As to the content- the original message was not sleep related, but rather little Kelly’s view of the world as viewed from the eyes of a young adult(?) at one of the biggest party schools in the state. Perhaps she would do better to stick to her usual drink, party, have fun writing and leave the ‘messages’ to the editorial staff. And as a total aside- the quoting of the text of her article was in direct violation of Daily Illini copyright and fair use laws. Vic

Response:

Correction: Kiily shoud be Kelly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC wrote: > Who is Keiiy Moran? What is ACES? > mel…@eightdollarfeathers.zyx wrote: >> Pizza, beer…how will we feed the world? We can start by wasting less >> ————————————————————————— —– >> by Kelly Moran >> It’s social justice guilt time! Today’s topic: the world’s unequal >> distribution of wealth. How does >> 20 percent of the population of the world get away with consuming 80 >> percent of the world’s >> resources and still manage to sleep at night? >> So, pack your bags, we’re going on a guilt trip. We, the >> industrialized nation that we are, are >> among that lucky, glutinous 20 percent. There are other countries in >> there, too

hands shaking – side effect??

admin — Wed, 06 Nov 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Pred made my hands shake so badly! It wouldn’t hurt to mention it to your doc. I saw the symptoms subside once I weaned off the pred. Be well- Tracy CD class of ‘98 my homepage: http://home.talkcity.com/ParadiseDr/goodboie/index.html : ) smile – it makes people wonder what you’re up to!

Response:

I get the shakes too, the neurologist said that it was a familial tremor and prescribed rivotril shich my sleep doctor put me on for leg tremors aka nocturnal myoclonus. Killed two birds with one pill, actually four pills, 2 in the AM and 2 in the PM. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My hands are continually shaking. Not badly, just there all of the time, makes balancing food on a fork difficult. Does anyone know if this is a side effect of pred (40mg /day) or azathioprine (100mg /day) or any other UC meds? have been on pred before & not noticed this. Just been in hospital for 2 weeks with bad flare & am now pain free & relatively symptom free. TIA Tony I believe the general rule is: If your hands shake when you are attempting to do something with them (hold food on a fork, etc.), it could be a benign, clinically unimportant "intention" tremor. Sometimes these are hereditary. On the other hand, if your hands shake while they are at rest (e.g., lying in your lap), it may be a more serious problem. But do check with your doctor.

Response:

oh yeah, i had it with the pred. too, remember now. i remember the sweats…omg!! jeffy

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I had it when i took pred and cyclosporine (and lots a other stuff) together, but after dropping pred, no longer. i get it bad with tacrolimus (prograf) and cyclosplorine. it is possible with pred. aza, i didn’t take long enough, had enough trouble with the large muscle pains and chest pains! jeffy My hands are continually shaking. Not badly, just there all of the time, makes balancing food on a fork difficult. Does anyone know if this is a side effect of pred (40mg /day) or azathioprine (100mg /day) or any other UC meds? have been on pred before & not noticed this. Just been in hospital for 2 weeks with bad flare & am now pain free & relatively symptom free. TIA Tony — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. So check it anyway! No attachments unless advised in body of email. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

I had it when i took pred and cyclosporine (and lots a other stuff) together, but after dropping pred, no longer. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i get it bad with tacrolimus (prograf) and cyclosplorine. it is possible with pred. aza, i didn’t take long enough, had enough trouble with the large muscle pains and chest pains! jeffy My hands are continually shaking. Not badly, just there all of the time, makes balancing food on a fork difficult. Does anyone know if this is a side effect of pred (40mg /day) or azathioprine (100mg /day) or any other UC meds? have been on pred before & not noticed this. Just been in hospital for 2 weeks with bad flare & am now pain free & relatively symptom free. TIA Tony — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. So check it anyway! No attachments unless advised in body of email. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

i get it bad with tacrolimus (prograf) and cyclosplorine. it is possible with pred. aza, i didn’t take long enough, had enough trouble with the large muscle pains and chest pains! jeffy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My hands are continually shaking. Not badly, just there all of the time, makes balancing food on a fork difficult. Does anyone know if this is a side effect of pred (40mg /day) or azathioprine (100mg /day) or any other UC meds? have been on pred before & not noticed this. Just been in hospital for 2 weeks with bad flare & am now pain free & relatively symptom free. TIA Tony — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. So check it anyway! No attachments unless advised in body of email. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

Just a thought- We all started to notice that my Father-in-law’s hands were shaking and we thought he had Parkinsons. It turned out to be Diabetes. He’s doing well watching his diet. Just a thought. Diana

Response:

Tony: I’m on 100mg’s of azathioprine, and was told by my doctor that hand shakes are a side effect of this drug. My shakes come and go, and aren’t really that bad, but noticeable. Take care. Dean – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My hands are continually shaking. Not badly, just there all of the time, makes balancing food on a fork difficult. Does anyone know if this is a side effect of pred (40mg /day) or azathioprine (100mg /day) or any other UC meds? have been on pred before & not noticed this. Just been in hospital for 2 weeks with bad flare & am now pain free & relatively symptom free. TIA Tony — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. So check it anyway! No attachments unless advised in body of email. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

I’m on 50mg Azathioprine but don’t get any shakes. I suspect I’m going to be told soon that the dose should go up, so this is very useful information – British medics routinely lie to patients. S.

Response:

I believe the general rule is: If your hands shake when you are attempting to do something with them (hold food on a fork, etc.), it could be a benign, clinically unimportant "intention" tremor. Sometimes these are hereditary. On the other hand, if your hands shake while they are at rest (e.g., lying in your lap), it may be a more serious problem. But do check with your doctor.

Response:

My hands are continually shaking. Not badly, just there all of the time, makes balancing food on a fork difficult. Does anyone know if this is a side effect of pred (40mg /day) or azathioprine (100mg /day) or any other UC meds? have been on pred before & not noticed this. Just been in hospital for 2 weeks with bad flare & am now pain free & relatively symptom free. TIA Tony — Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. So check it anyway! No attachments unless advised in body of email. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).

Response:

restless legs

admin — Fri, 03 Aug 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Mirapex is a medication used to treat Parkinson’s disease and restless legs syndrome (RLS). Buy mirapex online and feel better today!

Question:

Hey anyone out there. what is restless legs syndrome? jan jkl

Response:

"MsWompa" wrote in message

news:20010325202505.09427.00001410@ng-cg1.aol.com… > Hey anyone out there. what is restless legs syndrome?

It’s a known sleep disorder that causes disturbed sleep patterns and all that goes with it. I am no expert on it. There are supposed to be drugs for it but if you want to find out more, go to the newsgroup alt.support.sleep-disorder where you can find the details by asking. — Earth Federation Founder and Member #1 Are YOU tired of racism and country borders and want a UNITED Earth? Email me! Remove the anti-spammer stuff.

Response:

yep and so does my dad Due to the current economic situation, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.

Response:

Hi Jan?? My child had this and would thump his leg involuntarily on the crib mattress during sleep. It never woke the baby just me (smile) I’d go rushing into the room to make sure everything was okay. I asked the ped. and they said it was just one of those things. So…it’s basically involuntary leg movements, and I think it’s more of a comfort thing vs clonus. Like I know this guy that rocks back and forth while he’s talking to you. It’s just one of those humanamolies. I keep movin’ my legs because I’m afraid I won’t be able to and to make sure they keep workin’ Now..that’s restless leg syndrome. (smile) Shell – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -MsWompa wrote: > Hey anyone out there. what is restless legs syndrome? > jan > jkl

Response:

It’s not just a sleep disorder, it occurs when trying to sleep espcially, but keeps people awake more than anything, although it can cause jerks and spasms during sleep that kicks a partner to bits. Interestingly one supposed cure is to lie with your legs in the snow – the cold sorts it. My friend’s had it since 16 years old, some 20 years before being diagnosed with MS. Helps if you don;’t wear a lot of things in bed, keep the bed sheets cool and aired (stick legs out the side), bedroom cool etc. Cough mixture can make it very bad indeed for some reason. Cause is unknown, but it is associated with nerve damage, linked to spasms in the leg muscles in general. Baclofen helps a lot, some people only take baclofen at night for it because of the weakness it causes some people in the day time. . Roarke. "MsWompa" wrote in message

news:20010325202505.09427.00001410@ng-cg1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey anyone out there. what is restless legs syndrome? > jan > jkl

Response:

oh silly twitty me. i thought it said does anyone HAVE restless leg syndrome. doh. sorry jan, that was a pretty stupid reply under the circumstances. my dad has this, so do i. i find it to be quite a painful condition. not just a case of involuntary movement, but a case of constantly uncomfortable legs, so that movement is produced voluntarily in order to try to relieve the discomfort. i haven’t suffered from it much at all since i’ve been taking tegretol.

Response:

MsWompa wrote: > Hey anyone out there. what is restless legs syndrome? > jan > jkl

I think restless leg syndrome is a form of myoclonus (involutary reflexive muscle contractions). Many people with MS have unusually brisk reflexes because the dampners from the brain are cut off by MS lesions. I haven’t been diagnosed with RLS but I’m sure I get it and I’m sure it’s related to MS. I don’t just get it at night either – just when my leg is relaxed. I also get the flickers in other muscles. Flickerety, flickerty, flickerty … flickerty, flickerty. It’s funny when I got myoclonus in my thumbs or fingers watching them flex back and forth to their own arrhythmic beat. And then I’m smoking and they flicker and I drop the cigarette on the floor – ha, bloody, ha. Below is a description of RLS from Health Central (http://www.healthcentral.com/mhc/top/000807.cfm) Take care, Paul http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/ RESTLESS LEG SYNDROME Alternative names: nocturnal myoclonus; RLS Definition: A sleep disorder characterized by leg discomfort during sleep, which is only relieved by frequent movements of the legs. Causes, incidence, and risk factors: Restless leg syndrome (RLS) occurs most often in middle-aged and older adults. It is worsened by stress. The disorder consists of sensations in the lower legs that make the person uncomfortable unless the legs are moved. The sensations usually occur shortly after going to bed but may also occur during the daytime. The abnormal sensations occasionally occur in the upper leg, the feet, or the arms in addition to the lower leg. The cause is unknown. There are often no obvious vascular or neurologic abnormalities associated with the disorder. Sometimes RLS can be associated with peripheral nerve diseases. There is an irresistible urge to walk or move the legs to relieve the discomfort, resulting in periodic episodes of leg movements during early sleep stages. The symptoms may last for 1 hour or longer. RLS can result in a decreased quality of sleep (insomnia) with subsequent daytime sleepiness, anxiety or depression, and confusion or slowed thought processes from lack of sleep. Prevention: Techniques to promote muscle relaxation and stress reduction techniques may reduce the incidence of RLS in people prone to the condition. Symptoms: sleeping difficulty persistent leg movements during sleep hours irresistible urge to move the legs abnormal sensation in the legs (occasionally, feet, thighs, arms) creeping sensations or discomfort (not pain, not cramps) relieved by movement of the legs may occur during the day worse when lying down Note: symptoms may be worse during stress or emotional upset. Signs and tests: An examination is nonspecific for RLS. No structural or other abnormalities are usually discovered unless peripheral nerve disease is also present. AN examination and testing may be used to rule out other disorders that may cause similar symptoms, especially disorders associated with claudication of the legs. Treatment: There is no known cure for RLS. Minimizing stress and promoting muscle relaxation are often helpful in reducing episodes of RLS. Warm baths, gentle stretching exercises, massage, or similar techniques may promote muscle relaxation. If sleep is severely disrupted, medications such as Sinemet (an anti-Parkinson’s medication) or tranquilizers such as clonazepam may be helpful to some people, but they may worsen daytime sleepiness in other people. Sometimes low doses of narcotics will relieve symptoms of RLS. Expectations (prognosis): The disorder is not dangerous or life threatening and does not indicate a serious disorder. It can be uncomfortable and can disrupt sleep. Complications: Insomnia can occur. Calling your health care provider: Call for an appointment with your health care provider if symptoms of restless leg syndrome are present and sleep is disrupted.

Response:

Of course you know the cure for that, Pau. Stop smoking! It’s really funny (ha, bloody ha!) when it happens while you’re doing graphics using the mouse, too. I have my trackball programmed so I neve have to use my wobbly thumbs. The other fingers are bad enough! Carmel Paul Jones wrote: > MsWompa wrote:

It’s funny when I got – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> myoclonus in my thumbs or fingers watching them flex back and forth to > their own arrhythmic beat. And then I’m smoking and they flicker and I > drop the cigarette on the floor – ha, bloody, ha. > Below is a description of RLS from Health Central > (http://www.healthcentral.com/mhc/top/000807.cfm) > Take care, > Paul > http://www.btinternet.com/~ms_pages/ > RESTLESS LEG SYNDROME > Alternative names: > nocturnal myoclonus; RLS > Definition: > A sleep disorder characterized by leg discomfort during sleep, which is > only relieved by frequent movements of the legs. > Causes, incidence, and risk factors: > Restless leg syndrome (RLS) occurs most often in middle-aged and older > adults. It is worsened by stress. The disorder consists of sensations in > the lower legs that make the person uncomfortable unless the legs are > moved. The sensations usually occur shortly after going to bed but may > also occur during the daytime. The abnormal sensations occasionally > occur in the upper leg, the feet, or the arms in addition to the lower > leg. The cause is unknown. There are often no obvious vascular or > neurologic abnormalities associated with the disorder. Sometimes RLS can > be associated with peripheral nerve diseases. > There is an irresistible urge to walk or move the legs to relieve the > discomfort, resulting in periodic episodes of leg movements during early > sleep stages. The symptoms may last for 1 hour or longer. RLS can result > in a decreased quality of sleep (insomnia) with subsequent daytime > sleepiness, anxiety or depression, and confusion or slowed thought > processes from lack of sleep. > Prevention: > Techniques to promote muscle relaxation and stress reduction techniques > may reduce the incidence of RLS in people prone to the condition. > Symptoms: > sleeping difficulty > persistent leg movements during sleep hours > irresistible urge to move the legs > abnormal sensation in the legs (occasionally, feet, thighs, arms) > creeping sensations or discomfort (not pain, not cramps) > relieved by movement of the legs > may occur during the day > worse when lying down > Note: symptoms may be worse during stress or emotional upset. > Signs and tests: > An examination is nonspecific for RLS. No structural or other > abnormalities are usually discovered unless peripheral nerve disease is > also present. AN examination and testing may be used to rule out other > disorders that may cause similar symptoms, especially disorders > associated with claudication of the legs. > Treatment: > There is no known cure for RLS. > Minimizing stress and promoting muscle relaxation are often helpful in > reducing episodes of RLS. Warm baths, gentle stretching exercises, > massage, or similar techniques may promote muscle relaxation. If sleep > is severely disrupted, medications such as Sinemet (an anti-Parkinson’s > medication) or tranquilizers such as clonazepam may be helpful to some > people, but they may worsen daytime sleepiness in other people. > Sometimes low doses of narcotics will relieve symptoms of RLS. > Expectations (prognosis): > The disorder is not dangerous or life threatening and does not indicate > a serious disorder. It can be uncomfortable and can disrupt sleep. > Complications: > Insomnia can occur. > Calling your health care provider: > Call for an appointment with your health care provider if symptoms of > restless leg syndrome are present and sleep is disrupted.

– " Don’t wait for a light to appear at the end of the tunnel. Stride down there and light the bloody thing yourself." web sites at: http://www.jaragun.com http://www.geocities.com/peripata/ email gin…@jaragun.com

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It’s Thrashing around all night – unable to stop legs moving around (like having worms in ya body!) Drives ya partner nuts! Wears out the bottom bed sheet……..you can get it watching a movie………it’s very uncomfortable +++ I take Rivotril but think pain control helps tooooo (Neurontin.) Had RL since first MS attack………………….Barb. (With shares in bed linen.) "MsWompa" wrote in message

news:20010325202505.09427.00001410@ng-cg1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hey anyone out there. what is restless legs syndrome? > jan > jkl

Response:

Hi all. Had no idea this actually had a real name. I’ve always called mine jumping leg jacks. They jump in the air when sitting in the chair, I’ve even kicked people in front of me at the theatre. The part I hate the worst is when the left leg goes into spasm and has a beat of it’s own. I could’t move it that fast no matter how hard I tried. Monica "To the world you might be one person, but to one person you might be the world."

Response:

I had the restless leg misery for months on end all day. My legs felt awful and in order to relive this awful feeling I would move one leg and then the other. Then start the whole process again. The leg movements were all voluntary on my part… dory

Response:

i still maintain that restless leg syndrome is not involuntary movement of the legs, it’s deliberate movements in order to try to relieve pain. involuntary movements, caused by muscle spasms, are a different animal, i believe. i found this description online: Restless leg syndrome (RLS) occurs most often in middle-aged and older adults. It is worsened by stress. The disorder consists of sensations in the lower legs that make the person uncomfortable unless the legs are moved. The sensations usually occur shortly after going to bed but may also occur during the daytime. The abnormal sensations occasionally occur in the upper leg, the feet, or the arms in addition to the lower leg. The cause is unknown. There are often no obvious vascular or neurologic abnormalities associated with the disorder. Sometimes RLS can be associated with peripheral nerve diseases. There is an irresistible urge to walk or move the legs to relieve the discomfort, resulting in periodic episodes of leg movements during early sleep stages. The symptoms may last for 1 hour or longer. RLS can result in a decreased quality of sleep (insomnia) with subsequent daytime sleepiness, anxiety or depression, and confusion or slowed thought processes from lack of sleep.

Response:

Never mind, that’s not what I have. Still searching for a name though. Monica

Response:

In article <2445-3AC1238B-…@storefull-111.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, xdewdr…@webtv.net writes: >I had the restless leg misery for months on end all day. My legs felt >awful and in order to relive this awful feeling I would move one leg and >then the other. Then start the whole process again. The leg movements >were all voluntary on my part… dory

So what did you do? Kathi

Response:

In article <20010327121758.01294.00000…@ng-fr1.aol.com>, renonativ…@aol.com (Reno Native 38) writes: >Had no idea this actually had a real name. I’ve always called mine jumping >leg >jacks. They jump in the air when sitting in the chair, I’ve even kicked >people >in front of me at the theatre. The part I hate the worst is when the left >leg >goes into spasm and has a beat of it’s own. I could’t move it that fast no >matter how hard I tried.

I have these all the time, especially in my left leg. I try to end it my forcing my foot flat on the floor, but it doesn’t always work. Kathi

Response:

That is exactly what my friend has had since aged about 15, some 20 years ago. Roarke "jils" wrote in message

news:A5gw6.28946$992.181500@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> i still maintain that restless leg syndrome is not involuntary movement of > the legs, it’s deliberate movements in order to try to relieve pain. > involuntary movements, caused by muscle spasms, are a different animal, i > believe. > i found this description online: > Restless leg syndrome (RLS) occurs most often in middle-aged and older > adults. It is worsened by stress. The disorder consists of sensations in the > lower legs that make the person uncomfortable unless the legs are moved. The > sensations usually occur shortly after going to bed but may also occur > during the daytime. The abnormal sensations occasionally occur in the upper > leg, the feet, or the arms in addition to the lower leg. The cause is > unknown. There are often no obvious vascular or neurologic abnormalities > associated with the disorder. Sometimes RLS can be associated with > peripheral nerve diseases. > There is an irresistible urge to walk or move the legs to relieve the > discomfort, resulting in periodic episodes of leg movements during early > sleep stages. The symptoms may last for 1 hour or longer. RLS can result in > a decreased quality of sleep (insomnia) with subsequent daytime sleepiness, > anxiety or depression, and confusion or slowed thought processes from lack > of sleep.

Response:

Elis, Kathi, does a terrific job of handeling herself… She’s the best one liner around. I Don’t find her offensve at all. Just a challenge to us long winders… I should of used "Crap’ instead of "Shit". I’m waiting to hear from her she owes me one:-) I’m waiting for an e-mail not a one liner.. She’s "A" ok and always in my prayers… dory

Response:

In article <25848-3AC4A4BA…@storefull-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, xdewdr…@webtv.net writes: >Elis, Kathi, does a terrific job of handeling herself… She’s the best >one liner around. I Don’t find her offensve at all. Just a challenge to >us long winders… I should of used "Crap’ instead of "Shit". I’m >waiting to hear from her she owes me one:-) I’m waiting for an e-mail >not a one liner.. She’s "A" ok and always in my prayers… dory

Well thanks I appreciate that, but why did you send this the day before? I still don’t know what you referring to. <

Response:

wrote in message

news:25848-3AC4A4BA-52@storefull-112.iap.bryant.webtv.net… > Elis, Kathi, does a terrific job of handeling herself… She’s the best > one liner around. I Don’t find her offensve at all. Just a challenge to > us long winders… I should of used "Crap’ instead of "Shit". I’m > waiting to hear from her she owes me one:-) I’m waiting for an e-mail > not a one liner.. She’s "A" ok and always in my prayers… dory

AGH NO DORY!! You should have used "should HAVE" not "should OF"! Sorry, my pet hate! ;-} — Earth Federation Founder and Member #1 Are YOU tired of racism and country borders and want a UNITED Earth? Email me! Remove the anti-spammer stuff.

Response:

On Sun, 1 Apr 2001 00:17:26 +1000, "gregh" wrote: >AGH NO DORY!! You should have used "should HAVE" not "should OF"! Sorry, my >pet hate! ;-}

You seem to have alot of pet hates. hehehehehehe. Eliz. _____ ‘Happiness is a warm puppy’ – Charles Schultz (1922-2000)

Response:

On Fri, 30 Mar 2001 07:22:34 -0800 (PST), xdewdr…@webtv.net wrote: >Elis, Kathi, does a terrific job of handeling herself… She’s the best >one liner around. I Don’t find her offensve at all. Just a challenge to >us long winders… I should of used "Crap’ instead of "Shit". I’m >waiting to hear from her she owes me one:-) I’m waiting for an e-mail >not a one liner.. She’s "A" ok and always in my prayers… dory

Oops. I thought you were slamming Dory in your post as well. hehehe. Didn’t realize it was you. Feeling sheepish. baaaaaa. Eliz. _____ ‘Happiness is a warm puppy’ – Charles Schultz (1922-2000)

Response:

Kathi, it went away… why do you harrass me with e-mail… An then post your shit… dory… I think you are tricky and very unkind… but at the same time the most careing, kind person on the ng… So what else do ya want to know,,,,

Response:

On Wed, 28 Mar 2001 21:37:32 -0800 (PST), xdewdr…@webtv.net wrote: >Kathi, it went away… why do you harrass me with e-mail… An then post >your shit… >dory… I think you are tricky and very unkind… but at the same time >the most careing, kind person on the ng… So what else do ya want to >know,,,,

Whoa there horsey. Kathi is just blunt, nothing wrong with that, I quite like it. Could it be your are misreading her? She is probably just looking for answers (like all of us eh?) And Dory being tricky and unkind – nope, that dog don’t hunt. I think you’ve made an error here. We all do, but I had to respond. Eliz. _____ ‘Happiness is a warm puppy’ – Charles Schultz (1922-2000)

Response:

In article , "jils" writes: >i find it to be quite a painful condition. not just a case of involuntary >movement, but a case of constantly uncomfortable legs, so that movement is >produced voluntarily in order to try to relieve the discomfort.

My legs are really bad at night and even a sleeping pill doesn’t keep me asleep. I also take Klonopin but don’t know that it is helping. Maybe I would be worse without it. Kathi

Response:

In article <13898-3AC2CA1C…@storefull-115.iap.bryant.webtv.net>, xdewdr…@webtv.net writes: >Kathi, it went away… why do you harrass me with e-mail… An then post >your shit… >dory… I think you are tricky and very unkind… but at the same time >the most careing, kind person on the ng… So what else do ya want to >know,,,,

I did not intend to harass you. I don’t understand what you mean. Kathi

Response:

I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve been prescribed Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. What happens is that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when I’m in bed, and then I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. Sometimes it’s really excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, but what really helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. And the muscles are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never had any kind of muscle spasms before, but does this sound like something spasm-like? I’m seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if anyone else had this experience w/ MS. Thanks in advance, atara — Atara Stein ____ / / Polymorphous List Proprietor Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

I also lay awake for hours with the restless legs and feet, I am not able to keep still for even one minute. it does drive one crazy. I try walking about and massage but nothing helps, I too would like some help on this if anyone has any advise. Joyce "atara" wrote in message

news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve been prescribed > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. What happens is > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when I’m in bed, and then > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. Sometimes it’s really > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, but what really > helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. And the muscles > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never had any kind of > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like something spasm-like? I’m > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if anyone else had this > experience w/ MS. > Thanks in advance, > atara > — > Atara Stein > ____ > / > / > Polymorphous List Proprietor > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

My neuro prescribed neurontin for this. I’m supposed to take it 3x a day, but it makes me too groggy during the day – besides, when I am awake I can move my legs to rid myself of the feeling – nighttime can be the pits but the neurontin has helped alot. Barbara – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jeanne Hicks wrote: > I also had restless legs and Sinemet helps. > "Kai" wrote in message > news:mnFa7.27012$Kd7.16716508@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com… > > Just saw my Neuro and he said the one thing he’s found that really works > for > > restless legs is Vicodan! I was shocked, but he said it’s the only thing > he > > writes triplicates (narcotics,etc.) for. > > "atara" wrote in message > > news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t.com… > > > I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve been prescribed > > > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. What happens is > > > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when I’m in bed, and > > then > > > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. Sometimes it’s > really > > > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, but what really > > > helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. And the muscles > > > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never had any kind of > > > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like something spasm-like? > I’m > > > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if anyone else had > this > > > experience w/ MS. > > > Thanks in advance, > > > atara > > > — > > > Atara Stein > > > ____ > > > / > > > / > > > Polymorphous List Proprietor > > > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > > > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > > > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

I also had restless legs and Sinemet helps. "Kai" wrote in message

news:mnFa7.27012$Kd7.16716508@news1.rdc1.sfba.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Just saw my Neuro and he said the one thing he’s found that really works for > restless legs is Vicodan! I was shocked, but he said it’s the only thing he > writes triplicates (narcotics,etc.) for. > "atara" wrote in message > news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t.com… > > I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve been prescribed > > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. What happens is > > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when I’m in bed, and > then > > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. Sometimes it’s really > > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, but what really > > helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. And the muscles > > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never had any kind of > > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like something spasm-like? I’m > > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if anyone else had this > > experience w/ MS. > > Thanks in advance, > > atara > > — > > Atara Stein > > ____ > > / > > / > > Polymorphous List Proprietor > > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

I have the same thing ! I am being treated with sinamet and Baclofen, they help some but still get them! I have to get up and walk around until they begin to slow down! I tried pounding on them also…works for awhile. Husband would kick me out of bed because my legs would jump so much that neither of us could get any sleep! Still happens but not as much! Dawn B. MS is a disease….. not the end! http://community.webtv.net/donkeyx/MultipleSclerosisis

Response:

Me, too. Except I can’t walk or even flop them around in bed. Like atara, pounding on them does seem to help a little. So does an ice pack. When it starts again, I am going to try some mj. — Pam ** Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves for they shall never cease to be amused. "Joyce" wrote in message

news:Ihqa7.19087$Ke4.10965641@news1.sttln1.wa.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I also lay awake for hours with the restless legs and feet, I am not able to > keep still for even one minute. it does drive one crazy. I try walking > about and massage but nothing helps, I too would like some help on this if > anyone has any advise. > Joyce > "atara" wrote in message > news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t.com… > > I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve been prescribed > > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. What happens is > > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when I’m in bed, and > then > > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. Sometimes it’s really > > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, but what really > > helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. And the muscles > > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never had any kind of > > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like something spasm-like? I’m > > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if anyone else had this > > experience w/ MS. > > Thanks in advance, > > atara > > — > > Atara Stein > > ____ > > / > > / > > Polymorphous List Proprietor > > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

no, i don’t think the panadol works jils. i usually resort to the rivitrol. sometimes my hips ache and i think that’s what’s causing the restless legs. hence the panadol. wonder if serapax would work as well as rivitrol does? might try it . cheers, carmel#2 oops… think i might have forgotten the #2 bit on previous posts. sorry carmel#1. i remain, carmel#2. (giggle) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jils wrote: > that is such a good description carmel#2 > i’m impressed. it’s perfect, i do the same, > try not to move and think it will go away, > but eventually the urge to move is too great. > panadol is only an analgesic, do you ever > find that it works? i find a muslce relaxant > or an anti spasmodic is helpful. > "Carmel#2" wrote in message > news:3B6B4CCF.F53087AA@iinet.net.au… > yes, me too. and often. i take panadol > first, then if no joy, i take rivitrol > (clonazepam) 5 mcg. i liken the > sensation of restless legs to a sneeze > building up. trying not to sneeze, then > having to. just have to move my legs and > feet to get relief! > carmel#2 > Jils wrote: > > yes, i’ve had that, but not as bad as yours sounds. > > restless legs syndrome is a condition all by itself, > > not necessarily an ms symptom. search the net > > for it and see. > > valium works for me. > > "atara" wrote in message > news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t. > > com… > > I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and > I’ve > > been prescribed > > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole > lot. > > What happens is > > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs > when > > I’m in bed, and then > > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. > > Sometimes it’s really > > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty > painful, > > but what really > > helps is just having someone pound on them for a > while. > > And the muscles > > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve > never > > had any kind of > > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like > > something spasm-like? I’m > > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if > > anyone else had this > > experience w/ MS. > > Thanks in advance, > > atara > > — > > Atara Stein > > ____ > > / > > / > > Polymorphous List Proprietor > > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could > > plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

that is such a good description carmel#2 i’m impressed. it’s perfect, i do the same, try not to move and think it will go away, but eventually the urge to move is too great. panadol is only an analgesic, do you ever find that it works? i find a muslce relaxant or an anti spasmodic is helpful. "Carmel#2" wrote in message

news:3B6B4CCF.F53087AA@iinet.net.au… yes, me too. and often. i take panadol first, then if no joy, i take rivitrol (clonazepam) 5 mcg. i liken the sensation of restless legs to a sneeze building up. trying not to sneeze, then having to. just have to move my legs and feet to get relief! carmel#2 Jils wrote: > yes, i’ve had that, but not as bad as yours sounds. > restless legs syndrome is a condition all by itself, > not necessarily an ms symptom. search the net > for it and see. > valium works for me. > "atara" wrote in message

news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> com… > I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve > been prescribed > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. > What happens is > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when > I’m in bed, and then > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. > Sometimes it’s really > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, > but what really > helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. > And the muscles > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never > had any kind of > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like > something spasm-like? I’m > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if > anyone else had this > experience w/ MS. > Thanks in advance, > atara > — > Atara Stein > ____ > / > / > Polymorphous List Proprietor > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could > plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

yes, me too. and often. i take panadol first, then if no joy, i take rivitrol (clonazepam) 5 mcg. i liken the sensation of restless legs to a sneeze building up. trying not to sneeze, then having to. just have to move my legs and feet to get relief! carmel#2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jils wrote: > yes, i’ve had that, but not as bad as yours sounds. > restless legs syndrome is a condition all by itself, > not necessarily an ms symptom. search the net > for it and see. > valium works for me. > "atara" wrote in message > news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t. > com… > I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve > been prescribed > Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. > What happens is > that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when > I’m in bed, and then > I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. > Sometimes it’s really > excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, > but what really > helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. > And the muscles > are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never > had any kind of > muscle spasms before, but does this sound like > something spasm-like? I’m > seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if > anyone else had this > experience w/ MS. > Thanks in advance, > atara > — > Atara Stein > ____ > / > / > Polymorphous List Proprietor > Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous > "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could > plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, > "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

I have had restless leg trouble since I was a kid. In my late teens I started Martial Arts training. The stretching I did then worked wonders if I did them right before bed. I would still wake up with the occasional "Charlie Horse" and stifness but it did help me to get to sleep.

Response:

Just saw my Neuro and he said the one thing he’s found that really works for restless legs is Vicodan! I was shocked, but he said it’s the only thing he writes triplicates (narcotics,etc.) for. "atara" wrote in message

Response:

yes, i’ve had that, but not as bad as yours sounds. restless legs syndrome is a condition all by itself, not necessarily an ms symptom. search the net for it and see. valium works for me. "atara" wrote in message

news:astarte-ya02408000R0208012105060001@news.cyberg8t. com… I’ve been diagnosed w/ restless legs syndrome, and I’ve been prescribed Mirapex, but it doesn’t seem to be helping a whole lot. What happens is that I get a kind of squirming feeling in my legs when I’m in bed, and then I can’t help moving them around, kicking them, etc. Sometimes it’s really excruciating. Massage helps, but it’s pretty painful, but what really helps is just having someone pound on them for a while. And the muscles are completely knotted up and down my legs. I’ve never had any kind of muscle spasms before, but does this sound like something spasm-like? I’m seeing my neuro in a few weeks, but I was curious if anyone else had this experience w/ MS. Thanks in advance, atara — Atara Stein ____ / / Polymorphous List Proprietor Info: http://www.yahoogroups.com/group/Polymorphous "Oy gevalt, I’m so ferklempt that I could plotz!"–Weird Al Yankovic, "Pretty Fly for a Rabbi"

Response:

RLS now cured

admin — Sun, 03 Dec 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

harkn…@skeptics.org wrote: > Frankie wrote: > >the best > >natural source is bananas > There are many lower-carb sources, such as squash, that are better. > harkn…@skeptics.org

Let me rephrase. The best source I will eat;-) Very picky eater and squash ain’t one. — "I do this really moronic thing that the government doesn’t want me to do. It is called thinking" – George Carlin Remove * * to reply.

Response:

Hi–I’m on the low carb approach to diabetes, however I have to limit fiber due to a narrowing of the intestine. Been hospitalized when I had too much fiber. I’d greatly appreciate what has low carbs and lower fiber. Best– Ron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -harkn…@skeptics.org wrote: > Frankie wrote: > >the best > >natural source is bananas > There are many lower-carb sources, such as squash, that are better. > harkn…@skeptics.org

Response:

woops–forgot to say "that also has a goodly amount of Potassium and/or Magnesium" Best– Ron – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ron Gould wrote: > Hi–I’m on the low carb approach to diabetes, however I have to limit > fiber due to a narrowing of the intestine. Been hospitalized when I had > too much fiber. I’d greatly appreciate what has low carbs and lower > fiber. > Best– > Ron > harkn…@skeptics.org wrote: > > Frankie wrote: > > >the best > > >natural source is bananas > > There are many lower-carb sources, such as squash, that are better. > > harkn…@skeptics.org

Response:

Re Potassium If you have kidney problems lay off the potassium and talk to a doctor. As someone who has bad kidneys I have had to reduce potassium so I can suggest some things that have lots and lots of potassium (you may be surprized!) Orange Juice – 1 glass about 400 mg Cantelope – 1/2 of a 5 inch diameter one -800 mg + Potatoes – half pound baked – 800 + Tomatoes Bannana (but everyone knows that) For more info – check this out http://www.ag.uiuc.edu/~food-lab/nat/startnat.cgi – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 03 Dec 2000 07:51:36 -0600, harkn…@skeptics.org wrote: >I no longer have nocturnal myoclonus (RLS). I believe I have found >the cure (at least in my case). Basically, it’s a combination of >1000mg/day calcium, 500mg/day magnesium, and about 300mg/day potassium >(roughly 1/8th teaspoon of Morton’s No-Salt). >The symptoms unexpectedly disappeared just after I added potassium to >the mix. I tried dropping the potassium, and the restless leg >problems came back, so I’m reasonably sure I nailed it this time. >YMMV. >I’ve also lost about 65 lbs on low-carb and weightlifting (which may >also have had an effect on the RLS, who knows?), and my CPAP is down >to 9cm from 17. I have hope that I will be off CPAP in another year. >Howard 330/265/220 Abandoned Low-Fat vegan fad in 1998 >Started Healthier Low-Carb Dec 1999 >50/42/38 (pants size) >Grossly obese/Chubby but muscular/Nothing jiggles

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -harkn…@skeptics.org wrote: > harkn…@skeptics.org wrote: > >I’ve also lost about 65 lbs on low-carb and weightlifting (which may > >also have had an effect on the RLS, who knows?), and my CPAP is down > I had some email requests for more info, and it looks like I wasn’t > specific enough. (This post was also Bcc’d by email) > The LC diet I have been following is not any particular plan, but most > closely resembles Ray Audette’s _NeanderThin_. If I find that I’m > getting tired of any part of the diet, I will incorporate different > items from other plans, such as Atkins, Eades, Schwarzbein, and > Bernstein. Note that these are all low-carb guru wannabes with MDs, > who think (erroneously) they have all the answers (a trait they have > in common with the likes of Ornish, Cooper, & McDougal). Atkins is > the most famous, but probably the least knowledgable of that group. > Bernstein is more knowledgable, but his book is pricey, and his > information is largely geared to diabetics. For the best background > information on LC, read Lyle McDonald’s _The Ketogenic Diet_, which is > unfortunately a very technical and difficult read. > As for where I get my supplements, calcium is easy to come by, but you > want to avoid calcium carbonate, which is poorly absorbed. And don’t > use Tums or similar anti-acid tablets, because in addition to being > the carbonate form, they are loaded with sugar (which is not reported > on the label). Magnesium is sometimes hard to find, so I get a Ca/Mg > citrate formula from a mail-order vitamin company (I don’t think I > need to plug a particular brand; just do a little websurfing for best > prices). Potassium supplements are needlessly expensive, so I use > Morton’s No-Salt; a year’s worth is less than $10. Even cheaper is > Lo-Salt, but it’s only half KCl. You don’t want to take in more than > about a half-gram per day of potassium, unless you are running > marathons or working in an iron smelter. Take these supplements with > meals, and spread them out over the day, because the Ca is hard for > the body to assimilate. > The balance of the different minerals is important; taking an excess > of one may adversely effect the body’s ability to use the others. > Be sure to drink plenty of water if you are taking these levels of > supplements. 2 to 4 quarts per day, spread over the day; more if > doing heavy exercise. > The body appears to do a better job of maintaining a positive Ca > balance if you lift weights 3 or 4 times a week, or do some other > weight-bearing exercise. (The soreness I sometimes get from leg lifts > feels entirely different from "restless leg", and doesn’t bother my > sleep.) > I generally follow the lifting recommendations in _Weight Training for > Dummies_. And what I consider to be a good workout would be > considered just a warmup for a dedicated musclehead. > And one other potentially important thing I forgot to mention, namely, > I also found that cola soft drinks tended to make the RLS worse. I > suspect this is due to the large amounts of phosphoric acid, which can > cause a negative calcium balance. I have also cut way down on > artificial sweeteners, which may have also had some effect, but I’m > not really sure about that. > I strongly recommend keeping a detailed food diary, because what works > for someone else might not work for you, and nailing down food > problems is notoriously difficult. > Ok, I’ve probably told you more than you really wanted to know, so for > more information on LC diets, see the ng alt.support.diet.low-carb, > and for weightlifting information, tune in to misc.fitness.weights. > Beware, though — these are extremely high-traffic groups with low > signal/noise. > Howard 330/265/220 Abandoned Low-Fat vegan fad in 1998 > Started Healthier Low-Carb Dec 1999 > 50/42/38 (pants size) > Grossly obese/Chubby but muscular/Nothing jiggles

Won’t go through the whole thing, but a couple points jumped out at me. Being a former "musclehead" I’m fairly well acquainted with many of the supplements. First, Calcium will not be processed without Vitamin D. It is an essential but you need to be careful. Vitamin D is one of three which may become toxic; A and K are the other 2. As far as Potasium goes, and you’ld need to check a nutrition book, the best natural source is bananas. My morning breakfast used to be 3-4 raw eggs, low-fat milk, and a banana (still tasted like; well you know;-) and once in a while I’d splurge and put a little malt in the mix. Did you know it IS possible to drink 12 oz of the above in one try! At that time, I was eating 4000 calories a day and not quite maintaining my weight and it is definitely hard to eat that many calories when it’s all chicken, fish, etc. Actually, I wouldn’t mind getting back into it, but I’ve a real time crunch and I’m looking for a Tai Chi or Qi Gong instructor for a comprehensive program that can be utilized well into a very old age. — "I do this really moronic thing that the government doesn’t want me to do. It is called thinking" – George Carlin Remove * * to reply.

Response:

Cholesterol Levels

admin — Thu, 30 Nov 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

My pressure was running high for awhile. I got so nervous and started writing down soduim counts for the day. I gave up regular coffee for decaf. cheese bacon sausage, hot dogs and can veggies i also started walking… never looked at soduim contents in products before really was an eye opener. i bought a blood pressure moniter and would check a few times a day it finally went back to normal.. :-) now to work on my cholestrol …

Response:

As you can imagine, my Consultant (for my hypertension which is unchanged

No. After 12 months on LC I dropped them, which cleared my chronic sinusitis, but did nothing to break the stall, and did not change my bp. Do you use artificial sweeteners?

Rarely I will use Splenda tablets – never more than 2 a day, most days none. I don’t use any others (allergies) and don’t drink sodas or indeed anything except weak black tea or herb tisanes, or water (lots and lots and lots of water – at least 3 litres/day) Do you eat canned meats?

Never! Can’t stand them or most deli meats either. I like my meats fresh and home-cooked. Even in the current seriously hot weather we’re experiencing I can cook in bulk at night once or twice a week and freeze in single-serve portions. I don’t use ‘LC Bars’ or other fake food products either – just fresh meats, poultry, eggs, vegetables, oils and so forth. Minimal salt, too, because I lost the taste for it a long time ago. Do you supplement with Mg, K, and Ca?

Yes Do you supplement with omega-3 oils?

Yes Do you take any other supplements?

C, selenium, multivitamin, b-complex, milk thistle (to support liver function). I have also tried garlic, and a few different mineral supps (at least 2 months at a time in trial) but have found no help thus far in supplements. Isn’t it interesting how different bodies react differently? Aramanth I have had to cut out all meats with sodium nitrite, and I have found that dairy products tend to stall me. I currently supplement with 4g of EPA/DHA/fish oil, 6g of C, 1000mg Ca, 500mg Mg, and 300mg potassium (1/8th teaspoon of Morton’s No-Salt). The last item unexpectedly and completely cured my nocturnal myoclonus (a sleep disorder caused by leg twitches, sometimes called Restless Leg Syndrome), which had bothered me for nearly ten years. Howard 330/265/220 Abandoned Low-Fat vegan fad in 1998 Started Healthier Low-Carb Dec 1999 50/42/38 (pants size) Grossly obese/Chubby but muscular/Nothing jiggles

– There are truths which are not for all men, nor for all time. Voltaire

Response:

As you can imagine, my Consultant (for my hypertension which is unchanged

Congratulations and Happy Birthday, Aramanth! I hadn’t recalled that we had the same birthday… — Scott yosemite at accesscom.com Tanita: 352/228/205 Atkins 2/99 TKD 4/00 "Jiji, if nobody comes in, I’m going to have to eat pancakes forever, and I’m going to be fat, fat, FAT!!" - Kiki in "Kiki’s Delivery Service"

Response:

Hi, I am new to this forum. I’ve been low carbing for about 3 months and have lost about 30 pounds! I have some friends that are considering doing it, but they have doubts about it’s affect on Cholesterol levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!! Jason Before you buy.

In Australia, we use mmol/l rather than mg/100ml as you do in the US. My cholesterol before LCing was always around 5 – 5.5 (5.5 is around 215), with HDL (good) around 0.9. After 12 months on LC, my total cholesterol was the same BUT my HDL had risen to 1.2. After 2 years, it was now 1.9, with total cholesterol unchanged still. As you can imagine, my Consultant (for my hypertension which is unchanged

Response:

I don’t have my "before" numbers, but I’ve been low-carbing for over 18 months. Had a work-up a couple months ago: Total Cholesterol: 182 Triglycerides: 53 LDL (the bad guys): 90 HDL (good guys): 82 Ratio: 2.2 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new to this forum. I’ve been low carbing for about 3 months and have lost about 30 pounds! I have some friends that are considering doing it, but they have doubts about it’s affect on Cholesterol levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!! Jason Before you buy.

Response:

Hi Jason , I also am new to this group. I have been on a low carb diet for about 2 months. I have lost over 10 pounds. Before I started on this diet my cholesterol was 296. Recently my doctor tested my cholesterol and it was 220. I think that proves that the lc diet brings down cholesterol. Nancy K. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new to this forum. I’ve been low carbing for about 3 months and have lost about 30 pounds! I have some friends that are considering doing it, but they have doubts about it’s affect on Cholesterol levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!! Jason Before you buy.

Response:

Although for the first few months, your chloresterol levels may rise, most people on this diet find that after that point they fall. If after 6 months, they haven’t fallen, then you may need to make some minor adjustments to your diet (eat more oily fish like tuna and salmon). It does seem odd that chloresterol usually falls on a diet that is relatively high in fat but Dr Atkins makes the point that carbs are a greater cause of rises in Chloresterol than fats. Experiences of people in this group certainly seems to bear that out. — Ev 20/06/2000 168/154/147 (only 7lbs to go!!!) If you want a carb counter and a progress chart and have Excel95 or + I have them free at my web site at http://www.znet.freeserve.co.uk/ Ev – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new to this forum. I’ve been low carbing for about 3 months and have lost about 30 pounds! I have some friends that are considering doing it, but they have doubts about it’s affect on Cholesterol levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!! Jason Before you buy.

Response:

I’m one of those wierdos whose cholesterol wasn’t lowered by low carb. Good news is it wasn’t raised either. My stats: Beginning low carb – 273 1 year and 2 months into it – 269 After two months of red rice yeast extract – 213 — Nancy S+13 Atkins Since 7/1/99 167/125/125 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new to this forum. I’ve been low carbing for about 3 months and have lost about 30 pounds! I have some friends that are considering doing it, but they have doubts about it’s affect on Cholesterol levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!! Jason Before you buy.

Response:

I was worried when I first started the diet. However, my hdl increased and the ldl decreased. Accordingly, although my cholesterol remained the same the ratio improved. Now that I am on maintenance the ratio has remained the same – despite eating cheese, eggs, steak, etc. — Jim Pirretti Manchester, CT – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I am new to this forum. I’ve been low carbing for about 3 months and have lost about 30 pounds! I have some friends that are considering doing it, but they have doubts about it’s affect on Cholesterol levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!! Jason Before you buy.

Response:

as I understand the current literature, your overall ratio is more important then the absolute number and the triglycerides and homocystine (no doubt misspelled) are big red flag for heart disease — Dragon Mom

Response:

http://lowcarb.50megs.com/bw.jpg Click the link above to view my blood work results that represent eating the "Low Carb" way for 1 year. I did not get any blood work done prior to starting low carb. For description of each test – go to http://www.healthcheckusa.com GN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – levels. So I was wondering if you guys/girls now what your cholesterol levels were before and after being on the diet. Thanks for any input!!

Response:

Any endocrinologists reading this???

admin — Mon, 10 Jul 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Has anyone had a similar experience to mine? I would appreciate any suggestions and/or advice. I have suffered from depression for 20 years, and also am very suspicious that I am hypothyroid. My doctors have tested my TSH, free T3, and free T4, on several occasions, and the values come back in the normal range. Because of this, they tell me that I am NOT hypothyroid. However, I have many of the symptoms of being hypothyroid. I have fatigue, depression, weight gain, intolerance to cold, bradycardia (slow heart rate), parasthesia (numbness and tingling) in my hands, as well as 3 other symptoms that I cannot think of right at the moment. I remember reading an article about hypothyroidism in a medical reference book, and that I have 9 of the 18 symptoms which were listed. I have also read an article in a medical journal which states… "In patients with depressive disorder, TSH, T3,and T4 lab values are unreliable." My doctor chooses to ignore this, and declare me to be euthyroid based on my TSH, etc. He has no explanation for my new symptoms of bradycardia and parasthesia, and says that my other symptoms are fairly non-specific, and may simply be symptoms of my depression. I have heard from a friend recently, that endocrinologists can do more extensive testing to determine thyroid status even when the TSH, T3, and T4 are within normal limits. The only endocrinologist that I ever went to simply repeated the TSH, free T3, and free T4 tests which my primary doctor had already done. He then declared me to be euthyroid based on those test results, and declined to give me any thyroid medication. When I sent him a letter stating that the combination of refractory depression and suspected hypothyroidism cause me to have increased suicidal tendencies, he took it as a threat (or a manipulation to try to get him to give me a script for Cytomel and/or Synthroid), and he dropped me like a hot potato. I guess I did not really want to see him again after all, since he declared me to be euthyroid, and would not budge on this diagnosis no matter what I had to say or what my symptoms were. What ever happened to "Treat the patient, not the lab results"? I am very frustrated, because I truly believe that I am hypothyroid, and I also believe that this condition prevents me from feeling well EVEN when my depression is under control. If any endocrinologist happens to read this message, please e-mail me with any suggestions that you may have for me. Even if you are not an endocrinologist, advice would be appreciated. In addition to treatment-resistant recurrent depression, and possibly hypothyroidism, I also suffer from restless legs syndrome and nocturnal myoclonus (muscle jerking while asleep). I am seeing a neurologist for these, and I take three different medications, which help a little, but not a lot. I have strong suspicions that all of my medical problems are somehow inter- related, but nobody else, including my docors, seem to think so. Please send comments, suggestions, or advice via e-mail to: Sincerely, Joe Larson

Response:

Even when a patient is not hypothyroid, psychiatrists sometimes give their patients thyroid hormone anyway. Dr. Whybrow of UCLA is a pioneer in this treatment. I am euthyroid but I take 50 mcg of Synthroid and I don’t know if I am feeling any results. * Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful

Response:

Any good psychiatrist or psychopharmacologist will let you try a trial of thyroid hormone to augment your antidepressants with. That is an extremely basic augmentation practice in mainstream psychiatry. Right up there with lithium augmentation in terms of commonality of practice. There are some theories in psychiatry that some depressives, especially some treatment resistant ones, have problems converting from T4 to T3. There are also some theories that some depressives have problems "using" T3 in their brains even though thyroid blood tests (TSH, free T4, free T3) come back fine. Thus, some treatment resistant depressives may benefit from adding a little(not much) Cytomel to their antidepressants to activate their antidepressants. I would recommend reading a book called "The Thyroid Solution" by Dr. Ridha Arem MD. Dr Arem is a renowned endocrinologist and his book is pretty new and up to date on the latest ideas about the relationships between thyroid and depression. He talks about subclinical hypothyroidism, he says T3(Cytomel) can even be used as an antidepressant in itself. It is a good book. If depression is your problem, I would forget about trying to get endocrinologists to give you Synthroid or Cytomel. Most endocrinologists are very conservative…anal even compared to a lot of other types of doctors. A lot of them tend to be pure numbers/statistics types…kind of like CPAs or accountants…bean counters…dweebs. If you want thyroid hormones for the purposes you are talking about you need to get it from a psychopharmacologist. Psychopharmacologists tend to be a lot more aggressive and daring even when it comes to prescribing medications for depression compared to endocrinology doctors. The TRH test mentioned before on this post is not a mainstream thyroid test anymore. It was more common back in the old days before HMOs and managed care. Unless you have extremely good insurance and/or are loaded with cash, you will most likely run into a lot of resistance if you try to get a TRH test done in addition to the standard thyroid tests. To put it bluntly, very few doctors will order a TRH no matter how bad you push for it unless you are medication resistant and have very, very good unrestrictive insurance. I would forget about getting a TRH if you have a greedy, control freak HMO like many of us do. The doctors are under pressure to keep "costs down." If that means you go undertreated somewhat…so be it and it is all legal. Eric "A medal for me, a body bag for you." Colonel Charlie Beckwith US Army Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

You can ask for a TRH (thyrotropin-releasing hormone) test. Have you ever been tested for anti-thyroid antibodies? The most common form of hypothyroidism is Hashimoto’s thyroiditis, an autoimmune disease. Some doctors will treat for hypothyroidism based on symptoms or basal temperature. The Broda Barnes Research Foundation can give you a referral. http://brodabarnes.org/ I’m sure you’ll get many helpful responses. Good luck. Siobhan, not an endo Before you buy.

Response:

After I had been taking slightly high levels (4 pills) of thyroid for 2 years, my new doctor had me tested for osteoporosis. Apparently, excess thyroid can leach bones. On the other hand when she raised the thyroid medication from 1 to 2 pills after a year, it was helpful to me. I’m sure some people need a little more than others. Christina

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Response:

Please look at the links in the "Welcome & Reading for FAQ *****" message. You’ll get a lot of valuable information there. Good luck. Rochelle

where could i find this? — read and post daily, it works! rosie ……we have deprived ourselves too long. there is no need to do that anymore. if it feels good, and the consequences are self-loving and not self-defeating, do it!

Response:

I have been around & around with different docs about this too. I contacted the THYROID FOUNDATION and asked them this: Even if a person has a normal range on their test could they still have mild hypothyroidism or a sluggish thyroid? And they said: YES there is a book out about this. I dont recall the name. Just as you can be low in iron-enough to make you fatigued, but not enough to be anemic. I have all the same symptoms too. They recommend a small dose of thyroid meds to help with Chronic Fatigue. I hope that you find something out. Trish

Response:

One way is to go to http://www.remarq.com In "Find a Message Board," search for "alt.support.thyroid" Then "Search (in this Message Board)" for "Welcome"

After you search for "alt.support.thyroid" you have to click on "Thyroid – Support" and then you’ll get to the page where you can "Search (in this Message Board)" for " Welcome"

Response:

Please look at the links in the "Welcome & Reading for FAQ *****" message. You’ll get a lot of valuable information there. Good luck. Rochelle where could i find this?

One way is to go to http://www.remarq.com In "Find a Message Board," search for "alt.support.thyroid" Then "Search (in this Message Board)" for "Welcome" or else go to and search under "Welcome + Reading for FAQ *****" for John Riggs’ 2 messages dated 7/31/00

Response:

It should be noted that despite what people like Mary Shoman claim, most depression is NOT rooted in mild or subtle thyroid problems. Most depression is rooted in, well, depression! It is easy to get sucked into this notion that one’s depression is possibly caused by hypothyroidism as there is a lot of literature out there claiming that. In fact, I myself wondered whether my depression was being caused by mild thyroid abnormalities, especially since I dont fully respond to meds. It is just not the case that most depression can be helped or cured by correcting underlying thyroid probs. That is wishful thinking and it oftentimes goes hand in hand with the denial of depression thing. "Im not depressed, I just have an undiagnosed, mild thyroid problem." BULL! Lets not forget that ultimately most depression cases are caused by psychiatric reasons(brain malfunctioning) and not thyroid probs. Another thing I noted about Mary is she seems very vehement about her opinion. She kind of acts almost like she is an MD when she is FAR from being a Medical Doctor. She has a nice website and there is a lot of info on there. Ive seen her book before also. Personally though, I liked "The Thyroid Solution" by Dr. Ridha Arem MD better. That is a good book and is really up to date. Eric "A medal for me and a body bag for you." Colonel Charlie Beckwith US Army Steroids caused my depression…prednisone should be used conservatively. Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com

Response:

AFAIK, no one said that there aren’t many causes of depression. While Mary Shomon discusses thyroid problems and depression at www.thyroid.about.com, I don’t think she ever claims that *most* depression is rooted in thyroid problems. OTOH, she does discuss treatment for depression if treatment for thyroid disorders doesn’t clear up the depression(http://thyroid.about.com/health/thyroid/library/weekly/ aa120897.htm). If you prefer other sources of info, just about every list of symptoms for hypothyroidism and hyperthyroidism includes depression on the list. Of course, not everyone with thyroid problems has depression or all the other symptoms. I’m glad you like Dr. Arem’s book _The Thyroid Solution: A Mind- Body Program for Beating Depression and Regaining Your Emotional and Physical Health_. That’s the complete title, BTW. Lois

: It should be noted that despite what people like Mary Shoman : claim, most depression is NOT rooted in mild or subtle thyroid : problems. Most depression is rooted in, well, depression! It is : easy to get sucked into this notion that one’s depression is : possibly caused by hypothyroidism as there is a lot of : literature out there claiming that. In fact, I myself wondered : whether my depression was being caused by mild thyroid : abnormalities, especially since I dont fully respond to meds. : : It is just not the case that most depression can be helped or : cured by correcting underlying thyroid probs. That is wishful : thinking and it oftentimes goes hand in hand with the denial of : depression thing. "Im not depressed, I just have an undiagnosed, : mild thyroid problem." BULL! : : Lets not forget that ultimately most depression cases are caused : by psychiatric reasons(brain malfunctioning) and not thyroid : probs. : : Another thing I noted about Mary is she seems very vehement : about her opinion. She kind of acts almost like she is an MD : when she is FAR from being a Medical Doctor. She has a nice : website and there is a lot of info on there. Ive seen her book : before also. Personally though, I liked "The Thyroid Solution" : by Dr. Ridha Arem MD better. That is a good book and is really : up to date.

Response:

It’s a commitment!

Response:

Lost Boy, I dont disagree with you, about thyroid abnormality only being a sometime cause of depression. This poster suspects it is in his case so referred him to a site helpful to me. I found Mary Shoman informative but always glad to have a better source so thanks for mentioning one you thought Dr. Ahem is better. Lois, thanks for providing the site. Linda * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi Joe, I didn’t have initial symptoms, etc, either. But when I started taking thyroid pills, my hair started getting longer, for the first time in 25 years. It helped a lot. But not enough. I too think it is a disorder of a broader system. HGH (human growth hormone) has been helpful for a broad range of things. Unfortunately, the only drug I had a significant positive response to was Fenflouramine. Yup, good old unavailable fen-phen. Damn. Christina

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone had a similar experience to mine? I would appreciate any suggestions and/or advice. I have suffered from depression for 20 years, and also am very suspicious that I am hypothyroid. My doctors have tested my TSH, free T3, and free T4, on several occasions, and the values come back in the normal range. Because of this, they tell me that I am NOT hypothyroid. However, I have many of the symptoms of being hypothyroid. I have fatigue, depression, weight gain, intolerance to cold, bradycardia (slow heart rate), parasthesia (numbness and tingling) in my hands, as well as 3 other symptoms that I cannot think of right at the moment. I remember reading an article about hypothyroidism in a medical reference book, and that I have 9 of the 18 symptoms which were listed. I have also read an article in a medical journal which states… "In patients with depressive disorder, TSH, T3,and T4 lab values are unreliable." My doctor chooses to ignore this, and declare me to be euthyroid based on my TSH, etc. He has no explanation for my new symptoms of bradycardia and parasthesia, and says that my other symptoms are fairly non-specific, and may simply be symptoms of my depression. I have heard from a friend recently, that endocrinologists can do more extensive testing to determine thyroid status even when the TSH, T3, and T4 are within normal limits. The only endocrinologist that I ever went to simply repeated the TSH, free T3, and free T4 tests which my primary doctor had already done. He then declared me to be euthyroid based on those test results, and declined to give me any thyroid medication. When I sent him a letter stating that the combination of refractory depression and suspected hypothyroidism cause me to have increased suicidal tendencies, he took it as a threat (or a manipulation to try to get him to give me a script for Cytomel and/or Synthroid), and he dropped me like a hot potato. I guess I did not really want to see him again after all, since he declared me to be euthyroid, and would not budge on this diagnosis no matter what I had to say or what my symptoms were. What ever happened to "Treat the patient, not the lab results"? I am very frustrated, because I truly believe that I am hypothyroid, and I also believe that this condition prevents me from feeling well EVEN when my depression is under control. If any endocrinologist happens to read this message, please e-mail me with any suggestions that you may have for me. Even if you are not an endocrinologist, advice would be appreciated. In addition to treatment-resistant recurrent depression, and possibly hypothyroidism, I also suffer from restless legs syndrome and nocturnal myoclonus (muscle jerking while asleep). I am seeing a neurologist for these, and I take three different medications, which help a little, but not a lot. I have strong suspicions that all of my medical problems are somehow inter- related, but nobody else, including my docors, seem to think so. Please send comments, suggestions, or advice via e-mail to: Sincerely, Joe Larson

Response:

i’d say its all relative to the individual. example, my honey….he sees a couselor but if you look at his life, he shouldnt be depressed…nothing major has happened physically or medically in his life. i on the other hand….parts of my life reads like a soap opera, i was given the pecarious choice ‘get cut open for a chance to live…or die’, i wear a hearing aid…i can hear a radio and not a tv, i can hear my honey, my dad, but not my own kids or my mom, i cant even hear my own voice…. and guess what….im not now, nor have i ever suffered a major amount of depression. i’ve seen couselors and sought out support groups…like this one, cuz i do feel no matter what im going thru…..i cant be the only one, theres simply too many folks on the planet for me to be that darn unique. i believe "dont sweat the small stuff and its ALL small stuff" and that works for me….so like i said its all individual. i mean i know why my honey is depressed….and truth be told….should be angry, not depressed. and according to all my folks

Response:

Joe, congratulations for your very articulate use of English – you put my style to shame! (My excuse is the brain fog I experience due to hypOthyroidism!) Hope you swiftly find a solution.

Response:

Sleep Apnea and Nocturnal Myoclonus

admin — Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Hi. Just wondering. Does anyone in this group with Sleep Apnea experience occasional nocturnal myoclonus (jerky limb or muscle movements) while they are falling asleep? I’ve only recently started to have myoclonus at night, previously my sleep disorder consisted solely of moderate sleep apnea. I’ve had two sleep studies done over the last 2 years that didn’t indicate any significant limb or muscle movement. Anyway, am being treated with low doses of Klonopin which really seems to help, but we all know that benzodiazepines aren’t the greatest drugs in the world for people with sleep apnea. Anyway, just curious if there is anyone else out there with similar experiences. Thanks in Advance, Ted Russo

Response:

Ted Russo wondered: > Just wondering. Does anyone in this group with Sleep Apnea > experience occasional nocturnal myoclonus (jerky limb or muscle > movements) while they are falling asleep?

Ted, yup! Been going on for me more than three years now. I’m not taking anything for it at this point. (Though that might change). Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

Response:

Ihave a severe case of what you are talking about , it is called restless leg syndrome, I have a severe case of it arms and legs ,there is a medication that works , to me it is a miracle drug, but doctors dont want to prescribe it .

Response:

trish92…@aol.com (Trish92954) wrote: >Ihave a severe case of what you are talking about , it is called restless leg >syndrome, I have a severe case of it arms and legs ,there is a medication that >works , to me it is a miracle drug, but doctors dont want to prescribe it .

And….what is it?

Response:

How do you know about it and what is it? Please let us in on it.

Response:

Alpha Intrusion

admin — Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Jo Technically, arousals are a 3 sec increase in frequency change in all EEG leads, cannot last more than 15 sec, or that is wake. That is theta to alpha, or beta. In REM, there must also be a chin muscle increase as well. Alpha intrusion is usually not periodic, it’s there or not. There used to be a way to score the degree of alpha intrusion as grade 1-4? (i think) All I know is that it’s really difficult to sleep stage prople with severe intrusion, as it rides over the underlying activity and masks it. Spont arousals, 102 would be 17/hr in 6 hrs of sleep. That probably screws up your sleep. Did they use sensitiove snore microphone, intercostal EMG, or nasal pressure? Sometimes people have UARS with restricted flow and causes arousal. Talk with your sleep doc. You may also be sensitive to noise, etc, was the lab bedroom quiet when you were tested? Again, talk with your doc. "Jo" wrote in message

news:vja17p535flgef@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On a similar but not quite the same … are all spontaneous arousals Alpha > intrusions, or would it specifically be noted on a sleep study if they were? > (trying to get to the bottom of my 102 spontaneous arousals that are not > respiratory related..seems to be a very gray area for treatment to get rid > of the EDS in these cases…) > Joanne > "bs" wrote in message > news:SrDYa.2059$2Y6.694793@news2.news.adelphia.net… > > Joe > > Alpha intrusion was first described by Dr. Muldofsky in Toronto as > > non-restorative sleep syndrome and alpha delta sleep. > > Your doc is correct as to common co-existing conditions, it is a symptom > of > > the effect of pain on the body and brain. It was explained to me that > while > > the brain is trying to sleep and slow down, the discomfort causes arousal, > > so there is a struggle between sleep and wake, = crappy sleep. The longer > > you have poor sleep, the more fatigue and pain you get….. > > So, we see this in many PSG’s while evaluating other things, and comment > > when we see it. Your physician is on the right track. Many patients seem > > to do well with rheumatologists that specialize in arthritic type > patients, > > even if that is not your cause of the alpha intrusion. > > Stimulant meds could increase sleep disruption, so be careful about the > > ADHD. > > There are MANY new studies that indicate sleep disruption in children from > > Leg Kicks, Apnea, Snoring or UARS, can lead to behavioral problems. Chase > > the simple stuff before committing yourself to long term stimulant meds, > > there are significant side effects! > > Good Luck! > > Bret > > "Joseph Wood" wrote in message > > news:DiwYa.15219$Ad4.5684670@news3.news.adelphia.net… > > > I recently had a sleep study where the primary diagnosis was alpha > > > intrusion. > > > According to the doctor, possible causes are fibromyalgia and chronic > > > fatigue syndrome. I have since read that ADD and teeth grinding can > also > > > cause increased alpha levels. > > > The doctor is rotating me through anti-depressants (lexapro and paxil so > > > far) with the only results being increased daytime sleepiness. > > > Does anyone have any information/good resources on alpha intrusion and > > it’s > > > possible causes? > > > I’ve always felt I was ADD and have an appointment with a neurologist on > > > Monday. > > > Joe

Response:

Alpha intrusions – the amount of times in which alpha appears unassociated with a full awakening or a physical event (this type of activity can be seen with many types of medications esp. antidepressants) "Joseph Wood" wrote in message

news:DiwYa.15219$Ad4.5684670@news3.news.adelphia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I recently had a sleep study where the primary diagnosis was alpha > intrusion. > According to the doctor, possible causes are fibromyalgia and chronic > fatigue syndrome. I have since read that ADD and teeth grinding can also > cause increased alpha levels. > The doctor is rotating me through anti-depressants (lexapro and paxil so > far) with the only results being increased daytime sleepiness. > Does anyone have any information/good resources on alpha intrusion and it’s > possible causes? > I’ve always felt I was ADD and have an appointment with a neurologist on > Monday. > Joe

Response:

*thank you* for this information, I can’t tell you how much it helps to get more insight into what it actually means to be told you have spontaneous arousals (understanding it better seems to help mentally even if there may not be a way to get relief!) As for the other questions.. I had a ‘microphone’ taped to my neck for the snoring and something taped under my nose – not sure what the names of those are technically. Yes the lab bedroom was wonderfully quiet and dark. This was a follow up study after 7 months on CPAP with continuing EDS (but definitely less sleepiness with CPAP although some days are worse than others) and fatigue to check titration was correct and with an MSLT to rule out narcolepsy, which it did. The study says that I had 114 arousals of which 12 were respiratory related – could UARS account for the respiratory related ones or is that something different? Here are the stage breakdowns in case that makes a difference… Sleep time 368 minutes. Latency 17.5 minutes Efficiency 81.8% REM 22% Stage I & II 67.4% Stage III & IV 20.7% My sleep doc tried me on Ambien to hopefully ‘get a longer, deeper sleep period’ but after 3 nights on it I felt 100 time worse, I came off that for a week and then tried again, 3 days later same intense extra fatigue and depression – so I gave up on that road. His next suggestion was surgery… which after reading all the wonderful information in the newsgroup and FAQ made me now avoid him like the plague – my AHI is down to 3 with CPAP, how would surgery help the arousals??!! eek! My current Primary Care doc is going down the road of ‘well, it must be Chronic Fatigue Syndrome’ because ‘we’ve ruled out everything else’. So I’m waiting for a referral to a specialist in that area…but I’m still thinking the spontaneous arousals have something to do with it and would like to address those first if possible. The fatigue, tiredness and brain fog vary from day to day, sometime just fatigue, sometime all 3, sometime intense to the point of being almost unable to function, sometimes it’s mild…. but there’s always some level of fatigue and brain fog there. Damn frustrating! Thanks again for your help. Much much much appreciated. Jo "bs" wrote in message

news:bO7Za.2494$2Y6.1093998@news2.news.adelphia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Jo > Technically, arousals are a 3 sec increase in frequency change in all EEG > leads, cannot last more than 15 sec, or that is wake. That is theta to > alpha, or beta. In REM, there must also be a chin muscle increase as well. > Alpha intrusion is usually not periodic, it’s there or not. There used to > be a way to score the degree of alpha intrusion as grade 1-4? (i think) All > I know is that it’s really difficult to sleep stage prople with severe > intrusion, as it rides over the underlying activity and masks it. > Spont arousals, 102 would be 17/hr in 6 hrs of sleep. That probably screws > up your sleep. Did they use sensitiove snore microphone, intercostal EMG, > or nasal pressure? Sometimes people have UARS with restricted flow and > causes arousal. Talk with your sleep doc. You may also be sensitive to > noise, etc, was the lab bedroom quiet when you were tested? > Again, talk with your doc. > "Jo" wrote in message > news:vja17p535flgef@corp.supernews.com… > > On a similar but not quite the same … are all spontaneous arousals Alpha > > intrusions, or would it specifically be noted on a sleep study if they > were? > > (trying to get to the bottom of my 102 spontaneous arousals that are not > > respiratory related..seems to be a very gray area for treatment to get rid > > of the EDS in these cases…) > > Joanne > > "bs" wrote in message > > news:SrDYa.2059$2Y6.694793@news2.news.adelphia.net… > > > Joe > > > Alpha intrusion was first described by Dr. Muldofsky in Toronto as > > > non-restorative sleep syndrome and alpha delta sleep. > > > Your doc is correct as to common co-existing conditions, it is a symptom > > of > > > the effect of pain on the body and brain. It was explained to me that > > while > > > the brain is trying to sleep and slow down, the discomfort causes > arousal, > > > so there is a struggle between sleep and wake, = crappy sleep. The > longer > > > you have poor sleep, the more fatigue and pain you get….. > > > So, we see this in many PSG’s while evaluating other things, and comment > > > when we see it. Your physician is on the right track. Many patients > seem > > > to do well with rheumatologists that specialize in arthritic type > > patients, > > > even if that is not your cause of the alpha intrusion. > > > Stimulant meds could increase sleep disruption, so be careful about the > > > ADHD. > > > There are MANY new studies that indicate sleep disruption in children > from > > > Leg Kicks, Apnea, Snoring or UARS, can lead to behavioral problems. > Chase > > > the simple stuff before committing yourself to long term stimulant meds, > > > there are significant side effects! > > > Good Luck! > > > Bret > > > "Joseph Wood" wrote in message > > > news:DiwYa.15219$Ad4.5684670@news3.news.adelphia.net… > > > > I recently had a sleep study where the primary diagnosis was alpha > > > > intrusion. > > > > According to the doctor, possible causes are fibromyalgia and chronic > > > > fatigue syndrome. I have since read that ADD and teeth grinding can > > also > > > > cause increased alpha levels. > > > > The doctor is rotating me through anti-depressants (lexapro and paxil > so > > > > far) with the only results being increased daytime sleepiness. > > > > Does anyone have any information/good resources on alpha intrusion and > > > it’s > > > > possible causes? > > > > I’ve always felt I was ADD and have an appointment with a neurologist > on > > > > Monday. > > > > Joe

Response:

I recently had a sleep study where the primary diagnosis was alpha intrusion. According to the doctor, possible causes are fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue syndrome. I have since read that ADD and teeth grinding can also cause increased alpha levels. The doctor is rotating me through anti-depressants (lexapro and paxil so far) with the only results being increased daytime sleepiness. Does anyone have any information/good resources on alpha intrusion and it’s possible causes? I’ve always felt I was ADD and have an appointment with a neurologist on Monday. Joe

Response:

Joe Alpha intrusion was first described by Dr. Muldofsky in Toronto as non-restorative sleep syndrome and alpha delta sleep. Your doc is correct as to common co-existing conditions, it is a symptom of the effect of pain on the body and brain. It was explained to me that while the brain is trying to sleep and slow down, the discomfort causes arousal, so there is a struggle between sleep and wake, = crappy sleep. The longer you have poor sleep, the more fatigue and pain you get….. So, we see this in many PSG’s while evaluating other things, and comment when we see it. Your physician is on the right track. Many patients seem to do well with rheumatologists that specialize in arthritic type patients, even if that is not your cause of the alpha intrusion. Stimulant meds could increase sleep disruption, so be careful about the ADHD. There are MANY new studies that indicate sleep disruption in children from Leg Kicks, Apnea, Snoring or UARS, can lead to behavioral problems. Chase the simple stuff before committing yourself to long term stimulant meds, there are significant side effects! Good Luck! Bret "Joseph Wood" wrote in message

Response:

On a similar but not quite the same … are all spontaneous arousals Alpha intrusions, or would it specifically be noted on a sleep study if they were? (trying to get to the bottom of my 102 spontaneous arousals that are not respiratory related..seems to be a very gray area for treatment to get rid of the EDS in these cases…) Joanne "bs" wrote in message

news:SrDYa.2059$2Y6.694793@news2.news.adelphia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Joe > Alpha intrusion was first described by Dr. Muldofsky in Toronto as > non-restorative sleep syndrome and alpha delta sleep. > Your doc is correct as to common co-existing conditions, it is a symptom of > the effect of pain on the body and brain. It was explained to me that while > the brain is trying to sleep and slow down, the discomfort causes arousal, > so there is a struggle between sleep and wake, = crappy sleep. The longer > you have poor sleep, the more fatigue and pain you get….. > So, we see this in many PSG’s while evaluating other things, and comment > when we see it. Your physician is on the right track. Many patients seem > to do well with rheumatologists that specialize in arthritic type patients, > even if that is not your cause of the alpha intrusion. > Stimulant meds could increase sleep disruption, so be careful about the > ADHD. > There are MANY new studies that indicate sleep disruption in children from > Leg Kicks, Apnea, Snoring or UARS, can lead to behavioral problems. Chase > the simple stuff before committing yourself to long term stimulant meds, > there are significant side effects! > Good Luck! > Bret > "Joseph Wood" wrote in message > news:DiwYa.15219$Ad4.5684670@news3.news.adelphia.net… > > I recently had a sleep study where the primary diagnosis was alpha > > intrusion. > > According to the doctor, possible causes are fibromyalgia and chronic > > fatigue syndrome. I have since read that ADD and teeth grinding can also > > cause increased alpha levels. > > The doctor is rotating me through anti-depressants (lexapro and paxil so > > far) with the only results being increased daytime sleepiness. > > Does anyone have any information/good resources on alpha intrusion and > it’s > > possible causes? > > I’ve always felt I was ADD and have an appointment with a neurologist on > > Monday. > > Joe

Response:

Alpha intusions are brief 1-6 second awakenings (in a relative sense) that usuaaly do not occur spontaneously, but can in some folks. Usually the arousal that is needed to end the apnea may cause them. Also, periodic limb movements of sleep may cause them. I beeper going off repeatedly at intervals during the night may cause them. Pain during the night may cause them. The arousals are too short to remember in most cases but they still represent sleep fragmentation and are not good for us. The may slow or prevent the progression into slow wave sleep (deep sleep) and may increase daytime sleepiness. Medication treatments can be administered but first one should attempt to learn the cause of the alpha intrusions if possible. Did you have periodic limb movements (formerly called nocturnal myoclonus)? Terry M. Brown, D.O., A.B.S.M. Medical Director Sleep Disorders Center University of Mississippi Medical Center

Response:

Stan I take about 1.25 mg (breaking a 2.5 mg pill in half). It is sublingual. I’ve never tried the timed release capsules. John in Seattle

Response:

In article <4ghsj8$71g> tbrown2…@aol.com (TBrown2873) writes: Alpha intusions are brief 1-6 second awakenings (in a relative sense) that usuaaly do not occur spontaneously, but can in some folks. Usually the arousal that is needed to end the apnea may cause them. Also, periodic limb movements of sleep may cause them. I beeper going off repeatedly at intervals during the night may cause them. Pain during the night may cause them. The arousals are too short to remember in most cases but they still represent sleep fragmentation and are not good for us. The may slow or prevent the progression into slow wave sleep (deep sleep) and may increase daytime sleepiness. Medication treatments can be administered but first one should attempt to learn the cause of the alpha intrusions if possible. Did you have periodic limb movements (formerly called nocturnal myoclonus)? Terry M. Brown, D.O., A.B.S.M. Medical Director Sleep Disorders Center University of Mississippi Medical Center No, never had periodic limb movements or pain during the night. No beepers or traffic noise. Do you have some pointers on on where we could look for information about medication? Perhaps knowing something about the drugs would help in finding a cause. Vince

Response:

Mary Rawlinson wrote: >Has anybody had success in treating apnea with these strips?

It is unlikely that anybut the mildest apnea would be treatable by these. >And a similar question: does losing weight help apnea?

It is supposed to. It may still require CPAP, surgery, or dental appliance. >(He’s not looking forward to either surgery or a CPAP machine and wants >to try other alternatives first.)

CPAP is not really that bad, and it sure beats risking death. I have other opinions about surgery, but those are personal. Eric O. Troldahl

Response:

My husband Bill has apnea and lately has been using "Breathe Right" strips on his nose at night. He sleeps better and says he feels better in the morning, but I can tell the apnea is still there (he stops breathing for about 20-30 seconds from time to time). Has anybody had success in treating apnea with these strips? And a similar question: does losing weight help apnea? (He’s not looking forward to either surgery or a CPAP machine and wants to try other alternatives first.) Thanks, Mary and Bill

Response:

In article <4g37k1$…@newsbf02.news.aol.com> jwl…@aol.com (JWLEET) writes:

Stan – I had a similar situation with waking up frequently. Melatonin has helped a great deal. I now routinely sleep through the night. John in Seattle What kind are you using. Is it just a capsule, tablet, or is it a sub-lingual (under the tounge) preparation. I found that the sub-lingual helped me fall asleep, but didn’t last. The capsules dont seem to help. Vince

Response:

Mary Rawlinson writes: >My husband Bill has apnea and lately has been using "Breathe Right" >strips on his nose at night. He sleeps better and says he feels better >in the morning, but I can tell the apnea is still there (he stops >breathing for about 20-30 seconds from time to time).

Bill has done the experiment and you report that he still has apnea. He needs to get an overnight evaluation by a qualified sleep disorders facility. Apneas of this length can have a serious impact on his health. >Has anybody had success in treating apnea with these strips? >And a similar question: does losing weight help apnea?

Yes, but until the weight is down and it is shown by an overnight test that the apnea is gone, too, Bill should have CPAP or other treatment. >(He’s not looking forward to either surgery or a CPAP machine and wants >to try other alternatives first.)

CPAP is what is most likely to help. Untreated apnea causes many serious medical conditions, shortens life, and endangers loved ones–falling asleep while driving, for example. Mental deterioration and emotional symptoms can destroy the ability to make a living, raise a family, or keep a marriage going. No fooling, I’ve been there. CPAP or whatever the doctor orders is cheaper and nicer, and you get to feel good and enjoy life together again. Bill, do it. Mary, go with him to your primary care doctor and get the ball rolling. Don’t delay. >Thanks, >Mary and Bill

– Jerry Halberstadt. email Visit the PHANTOM SLEEP PAGE at or Classic gopher, connect to gopher.std.com, select Book Sellers/ntp

Response:

Breathing strips are a good method of opening a stopped-up nose. I use them (along with CPAP) when I have a cold. But sleep apnea is usually associated with the uvula or other parts of the breathing passages (obstructive sleep apnea) or the brain (CNS sleep apnea). If a sleep study finds nasal obstruction, maybe they will work. But I would not bet my life on it. (Think about that last sentence.) Wally ——————- DISCLAIMER: Bellcore allows its employees Internet access through its in-house connection. However, unless otherwise indicated, the statements and opinions expressed in this posting are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the views of Bell Communications Research, Inc.

Response:

In article , vi…@vince.math.uconn.edu says… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In article <4fucc6$…@spectator.cris.com> st…@concentric.net (Stan Ward) writes: >>I was recently diagnosed with moderate to severe Obstructive Sleep >>Apnea (about 30-50 apneas/hour) and was prescribed a CPAP (11 psi). >>Seems to work great (but I still hate it). However, my sleep is >>still interupted, just not as often. At the sleep center, 2nd >>round (when the CPAP was used), they said I had ‘Alpha Intrusion’, >>and a different anti-depressant drug might help. I had been on >>Serzone, but stopped when I started CPAP. >Well, I had two studies, first found mild apnea, and alpha intrusion, >second (after failed CPAP trial, septoplasty, etc over about 18 >months) found no respiratory problems, but still severe AI. They are >currently trying to decide what to do with me. >>I’ve been treated for depression for about two years, and I am >>currently operating under the assumption that I was not depressed, >>I was tired! It remains to be seen whether this is true or not, >>but the early signs are very positive. I’m going to give it >>another month before posting news of my ‘cure’ to >>alt.support.depression. >It is possible. One of the effects of sleep deprivation can be >depresson. >>What is Alpha Intrusion (AI)? Is it related to depression, or just >>using the same meds? >Well, its just a fancy name for the EEG pattern that is associated >with being awake coming in to the pattern you have in your sleep. >According to my doctor, it is commonly associated with pretty severe >pain, like fybromyalga, or depression. >>All the doctor could tell me is that it seemed that the brain >>occasionally gets active and disrupts REM sleep, but little is >>known about it. Other sources have said that when other >>disruptions (i.e., apnea) are removed, AI seems to get better. >Yeah, that is what I heard. >>While my general sleep is much better, I sleep about 3 hours solid, >>then wake up every half hour thereafter. The doctor was not very >>informative. Her explanation sounded a lot like, ‘you were >>sleeping well, and then you woke up’. This was not news. >This sounds like my sleep test. The doc recomended >amytryptiline(an anti-depressant), but it didn’t help and had >intolerable side effects for me. So I am still looking for help. >What new anti-depressant did you get. >I had never thought of myself as depressed, just tired. Perhaps I was >wrong, and it is depression causing sleep problems? > Vince

The new anti-depressant I am on is imiprobine. I’ve been on it for a week now. Prior to starting it I had to admit that sleep was not the cure for my anxiety and depression symptoms, which reoccurred over the few weeks after I stopped Serzone. So far, imiprobine has not helped my sleep or depression, but these things tend to take two to four weeks to kick in. In my case, besides the tired feeling, I was lethargic (not the same thing) and wasn’t interested in doing things I used to like. I would come home and turn in to a ‘mouse potato’ all night – playing solitaire & freecell for hours at a stretch. I develop anxiety symptoms for no reason – chest pains, muscle tension, etc. I also get obsessive-compulsive, picking up nervous habits, staying late at work to finish up projects that don’t need finishing up, re-checking things, etc. Not so severe that I couldn’t function, but definately not having fun. By the way, I noticed from Email that I’m not the only one to describe my pre-CPAP awakenings as feeling like I had a hangover. I’ve had a hangover that lasted fifteen years… My sleep is so much better than it was, that feeling is gone now. One problem down (if I can get used to the damned mask). Stan

Response:

In article <312717A3.1…@netside.com>, Mary Rawlinson writes: >My husband Bill has apnea and lately has been using "Breathe Right" >strips on his nose at night. He sleeps better and says he feels better >in the morning, but I can tell the apnea is still there (he stops >breathing for about 20-30 seconds from time to time).

Bill’s experience is a very good example of the pitfalls of using unproven therapies in the treatment of obstructive sleep apnea. Although great for snorers with obstruction at the nasal passages, these devices have not proven useful in the treatment of apnea. Likewise, the use of dental appliances, and even the newest laser surgery technology for snoring should be used with caution, as the elimination of snoring may lull the individual into a false sense that the apnea is being adequately treated. Weight loss (in some studies as little as 10% of body weight) can result in a significant reduction of severity of apnea for many people but don’t forget that, to a lesser degree, thin people can have apnea too. And, although holistically speaking probably the best treatment for your overall health if you are overweight, weight loss is probably the least effective treatment because most people can’t lose the weight and most of those that do gain it back. Any of these treatments should be followed up with a polysomnogram to ensure that the condition is properly treated. Bill is lucky to have such an observant wife.

Response:

I was recently diagnosed with moderate to severe Obstructive Sleep Apnea (about 30-50 apneas/hour) and was prescribed a CPAP (11 psi). Seems to work great (but I still hate it). However, my sleep is still interupted, just not as often. At the sleep center, 2nd round (when the CPAP was used), they said I had ‘Alpha Intrusion’, and a different anti-depressant drug might help. I had been on Serzone, but stopped when I started CPAP. I’ve been treated for depression for about two years, and I am currently operating under the assumption that I was not depressed, I was tired! It remains to be seen whether this is true or not, but the early signs are very positive. I’m going to give it another month before posting news of my ‘cure’ to alt.support.depression. What is Alpha Intrusion (AI)? Is it related to depression, or just using the same meds? All the doctor could tell me is that it seemed that the brain occasionally gets active and disrupts REM sleep, but little is known about it. Other sources have said that when other disruptions (i.e., apnea) are removed, AI seems to get better. While my general sleep is much better, I sleep about 3 hours solid, then wake up every half hour thereafter. The doctor was not very informative. Her explanation sounded a lot like, ‘you were sleeping well, and then you woke up’. This was not news. Any ideas or info? Thanks. Stan in St. Louis

Response:

In article <4fucc6$…@spectator.cris.com> st…@concentric.net (Stan Ward) writes: >I was recently diagnosed with moderate to severe Obstructive Sleep >Apnea (about 30-50 apneas/hour) and was prescribed a CPAP (11 psi). >Seems to work great (but I still hate it). However, my sleep is >still interupted, just not as often. At the sleep center, 2nd >round (when the CPAP was used), they said I had ‘Alpha Intrusion’, >and a different anti-depressant drug might help. I had been on >Serzone, but stopped when I started CPAP.

Well, I had two studies, first found mild apnea, and alpha intrusion, second (after failed CPAP trial, septoplasty, etc over about 18 months) found no respiratory problems, but still severe AI. They are currently trying to decide what to do with me. >I’ve been treated for depression for about two years, and I am >currently operating under the assumption that I was not depressed, >I was tired! It remains to be seen whether this is true or not, >but the early signs are very positive. I’m going to give it >another month before posting news of my ‘cure’ to >alt.support.depression.

It is possible. One of the effects of sleep deprivation can be depresson. >What is Alpha Intrusion (AI)? Is it related to depression, or just >using the same meds?

Well, its just a fancy name for the EEG pattern that is associated with being awake coming in to the pattern you have in your sleep. According to my doctor, it is commonly associated with pretty severe pain, like fybromyalga, or depression. >All the doctor could tell me is that it seemed that the brain >occasionally gets active and disrupts REM sleep, but little is >known about it. Other sources have said that when other >disruptions (i.e., apnea) are removed, AI seems to get better.

Yeah, that is what I heard. >While my general sleep is much better, I sleep about 3 hours solid, >then wake up every half hour thereafter. The doctor was not very >informative. Her explanation sounded a lot like, ‘you were >sleeping well, and then you woke up’. This was not news.

This sounds like my sleep test. The doc recomended amytryptiline(an anti-depressant), but it didn’t help and had intolerable side effects for me. So I am still looking for help. What new anti-depressant did you get. I had never thought of myself as depressed, just tired. Perhaps I was wrong, and it is depression causing sleep problems? Vince