Oxygen
Question:
To Anyone, For some reason my computer sometimes aborts my messages and sends them early. I’m sorry. Recently a group member wrote that oxygen reacts on the carbon dioxide and disables it and that is why oxygen is used for some people with apnea.. It’s a new theory for me and I would like to know more about it. Was it a guess or is there some evidence of this? I wrote the two people who mentioned it but haven’t had a response. Can anyone inform me about this? Thanks, Em
Response:
To anyone:
Response:
Emory46b wrote: > Recently a group member wrote that oxygen reacts on the carbon > dioxide and disables it and that is why oxygen is used for some people with > apnea..
It doesn’t disable the Carbon Dioxide…. The reason some have supplemental Oxygen (I’m one) is because our Oxygen saturation as measured by pulse Oximetry (the clip they stuck on a finger in the sleep test) dropped very low. With me my Oxygen dropped to 40% with normal being defined at 90% to 100% Oxygen Saturation. Because my O2 dropped so low I have both Bi-PAP and an O2 Concentrator to add O2 to the hose that runs from the xPAP to the mask. On the other hand, too much Oxygen disables the "breathe" signal and can cause Central Apneas (failure of the brain to respond rather than a physical blockage). > It’s a new theory for me and I would like to know more about it. Was it a > guess or is there some evidence of this?
Mainly I think it was because my O2 Sat. dropped so low during the sleep test. Personal anecdote: one night I used the Bi-PAP but forgot to turn on the O2 concentrator. I felt much more tired than I was used to while using the xPAP. I do suggest that anyone who still feels very tired after several weeks of xPAP use ask the Doctor if it would be possible to add supplemental O2 to your routine. > Can anyone inform me about this?
The O2 concentrator is not an O2 tank. It is a thing that gets plugged into an electrical outlet and produces the extra O2 at need, so it is a bit safer than the tank. Mine can be adjusted from 0.5 liter O2 a minute to about 5.0 liter a minute (which I was told equals about 40% O2 in the hose when used with xPAP) this is not the same as xPAP which puts out X cm/H2O pressure. Hope this answers some of your questions. — Magesteff - "The only real valuable thing is intuition." -Albert Einstein
Response:
"Magesteff (Steffeny)" <mages…@bellsouth.net> wrote: >Emory46b wrote: >On the other hand, too much Oxygen disables the "breathe" signal and can cause >Central Apneas (failure of the brain to respond rather than a physical blockage).
This makes sense to me, except that I’ve seen quite a few people on here who say that they’ve been prescribed O2 *FOR* central apnea. Don’t ask me why, but this sometimes helps central apnea sufferers. Regards, Tim Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com
Response:
Tim wrote: >> On the other hand, too much Oxygen disables the >> "breathe" signal and can cause Central Apneas … > This makes sense to me, except that I’ve seen quite > a few people on here who say that they’ve been > prescribed O2 *FOR* central apnea.
Tim, just my ‘two cents’ – nothing real scientific (though I try to get my facts straight). Central Sleep Apneas (CSA) result from numerous factors. For example, someone chronically has lowered saturated O2 levels, such as someone with obstructive sleep apnea (OSA), then their bodies become ‘accustomed’ to the new lower level. Or it might be a neurological problem in the autonomic nervous system. At any rate, adding O2 into the xPAP tube improves the amount of oxygen in the inspired air. This increases the saturated O2 levels. It doesn’t stop the central type apneas. Of course the balance act is to increase the O2 enough to help, but not so much that it inhibits respiration. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher
Response:
Hi John, Thanks for the reply. Very interesting! It sounds as though if one’s CSA results from being accustomed to low O2, adding more O2 might not help because doing so might just cause additional events. But if the cause is neurological, then adding O2 could very well help. If these conclusions are wrong though, feel free to correct me. I always enjoy learning new things on this newsgroup. It’s amazing how often that happens, even after being here for quite a while now! Regards, Tim Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com. Up to 100 minutes free! http://www.keen.com
Response:
Tim wrote: > It sounds as though if one’s CSA results from being > accustomed to low O2, adding more O2 might not > help because doing so might just cause additional > events. But if the cause is neurological, then adding > O2 could very well help.
Please remember, I’m not a healthcare professional. Just trying to repeat something I heard from my pulmonologist. So, I may have this all wrong – won’t be the first or last time that’s happened. He indicated it appears if someone has long term problems with poor oxygen levels, then their body just isn’t as agressive about trying to improve breathing. Oxygen *may* help. Every case varies. A neurological cause may result in the same problem … again … every case varies. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher
Response:
On Wed, 12 Dec 2001 22:08:25 -0800 (PST), MINDIS…@webtv.net (Frannie Osborne) wrote: >Is there anyone here that is on oxygen with their BIPAP/CPAP or have any >knowledge about oxygen levels and such? My dx of OSA actually evolved >when I went to the doc for breathing problems and was dx with COPD. I’ve >been on the BIPAP three months now and I don’t notice any difference in >my energy level. From the beginning I have felt I need to be on oxygen >at night. (Lung capacity 75%) Yesterday they had me bring home a >oximeter and use it last night. The doc is "on vacation" and won’t be >back till the 18th. I’ve started havng breathing problems again (it >exhausts me to talk) and don’t know if I should wait a week. I tried to >read the tape (it was pretty simple they said) and there is an average >each hour. My low average each hour was 87 while I was on the BIPAP last >night. (Should be at least 97 I believe) Should I push for an answer >sooner or wait? Anyone have any knowledge in this department? Frannie
Using both supplemental O2 and xPap together is not uncommon. Generally speaking the goal of supplemental O2 therapy is to keep the O2 saturation in the 90’s, the higher the better but higher than the mid 90s or so is overkill unless they are attained with a low flow of O2 ( 2-3 liters per minute[lpm]). Some people who suffer from COPD cannot maintian an O2 saturation in the 90’s no matter how much supplemental O2 you give them especially during periods of activity (activity level can vary from fairly strenuous exerciseto as little as walking and talking).
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frannie Osborne wrote: > Is there anyone here that is on oxygen with their BIPAP/CPAP or have any > knowledge about oxygen levels and such? My dx of OSA actually evolved > when I went to the doc for breathing problems and was dx with COPD. I’ve > been on the BIPAP three months now and I don’t notice any difference in > my energy level. From the beginning I have felt I need to be on oxygen > at night. (Lung capacity 75%) Yesterday they had me bring home a > oximeter and use it last night. The doc is "on vacation" and won’t be > back till the 18th. I’ve started havng breathing problems again (it > exhausts me to talk) and don’t know if I should wait a week. I tried to > read the tape (it was pretty simple they said) and there is an average > each hour. My low average each hour was 87 while I was on the BIPAP last > night. (Should be at least 97 I believe) Should I push for an answer > sooner or wait? Anyone have any knowledge in this department? Frannie
Although I haven’t seen her post lately, MageSteff has an oxygen concentrator with her xPAP and so do some others. O2 levels should be above 95% although higher is better. Big Al
Response:
Thank you Fritz. I’m going to be going back over your message again so I can absorb all of it. Yes, I have severe sleep apnea too. When I first went to this doc it was for "asthma", though I had never had asthma before. That was when he diagnosed me with COPD. At the time my breathing was very bad. It would exhaust me just to talk. (That is a problem because I am a talker. LOL) Then he told me they usually order a sleep study for people with COPD. So I did that September 18th. (The result being the BIPAP at 11/6) Last week I had an appointment with him. He asked if I was feeling better now that I was on the BIPAP. I told him no and that also we seemed to have gotten off track and haven’t even addressed my pulmonary disease lately. That was when he decided to send me home with the oximeter. Like I said, I have felt all along I needed oxygen. Not much, just a little. During my first sleep study my numbers went to 63 for oxygen. During tritation (two hours of sleep max) my lowest number for oxygen (I have the report here and I see the lab had suggested the oximeter earlier) was 91. Strange thing is, the last two nights, since my breathing has been worse, I haven’t dreamed and I have noticed that I snore when I first go to sleep. (I wake myself up.) Hmmm, me thinks me is going downhill.) Frannie
Response:
MINDIS…@webtv.net (Frannie Osborne) wrote: >Is there anyone here that is on oxygen with their BIPAP/CPAP or have any >knowledge about oxygen levels and such?
I _think_ anything 88% or below would qualify you for supplemental oxygen, normal seems to be 95-97%. Tom
Response:
COPD and OSA are 2 separate problems that can (and do) co-exist. You don’t specify if you have OSA also. COPD can be treated by by non-invasive positive pressure ventilation (NPPV), of which BiPaP is one type. OSA can definitely be treated with BIPAP successfully. BIPAP can _maybe_ have a positive impact on COPD. COPD puts a significant strain on the respiratory muscles trying to overcome the abnormalities of the damaged airways. Persons with this disease are often taught "pursed lip breathing" to help overcome the airway collapse and air trapping that results. BiPAP acts a bit like this with the back pressure and (hopefully) takes some of the load of the muscles while you sleep so they can carry on better during the day. Typical results range from decent to nothing except expense and hassle. This modality will in no way "cure" you. The oximeter will give you some objective feedback. Your subjective feedback is pretty important though because of the complex nature of the disease and the spotty record of success with BIPAP in treating COPD. The BIPAP DOES have to be "tuned" to your breathing pattern. This is done by the Respiratory Therapist, hopefully they know what they are doing. It’s almost more of an art than a science though. Oxygen is often added to CPAP circuits. For people with COPD the goal is to keep saturations in the low 90’s(higher for simple OSA). Higher is not desireable for people with COPD (too complex to explain here). If you are averaging 87% then you might benefit from a couple of liter/minute, either with the BiPAP or just with nasal prongs alone; depends on wether the BiPAP is doing you any good. Be sure to communicate with the Dr. and RT if the BiPAP doesn’t seem to be of any benefit. Some tuning might help. If not it might not be of any value to you. Fritz Merkel Respiratory Therapy.
Response:
Is there anyone here that is on oxygen with their BIPAP/CPAP or have any knowledge about oxygen levels and such? My dx of OSA actually evolved when I went to the doc for breathing problems and was dx with COPD. I’ve been on the BIPAP three months now and I don’t notice any difference in my energy level. From the beginning I have felt I need to be on oxygen at night. (Lung capacity 75%) Yesterday they had me bring home a oximeter and use it last night. The doc is "on vacation" and won’t be back till the 18th. I’ve started havng breathing problems again (it exhausts me to talk) and don’t know if I should wait a week. I tried to read the tape (it was pretty simple they said) and there is an average each hour. My low average each hour was 87 while I was on the BIPAP last night. (Should be at least 97 I believe) Should I push for an answer sooner or wait? Anyone have any knowledge in this department? Frannie
Response:
Has anyone tried sleeping with a trickle fed oxygen mask? Maybe the low oxygen saturation of the blood in OSA is the *cause* not the result? Perhaps with adequate saturation the throat tissues would not collapse, and apnea/snoring would not occur?
Response:
On Mon, 7 Sep 1998 17:46:26 +0100, "Roger Morgan" <g…@dial.pipex.com> wrote: >Has anyone tried sleeping with a trickle fed oxygen mask? Maybe the low >oxygen saturation of the blood in OSA is the *cause* not the result? >Perhaps with adequate saturation the throat tissues would not collapse, and >apnea/snoring would not occur?
Sleeping with supplemental oxygen will reduce the number of hypopneas (episodes of oxygen deprivation) and raise the Sa02 at trough (the worst-case of oxygen deprivation) but will NOT fix most of the effects of apnea. It’s basically a poor workaround for a patient unsuitable for surgery who also rejects CPAP and its variants. For further information, read the following article by Lawrence Martin, MD, on the effects of sleep apnea and Pickwickian syndrome, Available on the Web at: http://www.mtsinai.org/pulmonary/books/icu/pickwick.html –C. PS: Not only is it informative, but Dr. Martin is a good writer. (It’s a chapter on a book he self-published on the Internet and all the "Stories of Intensive Care" are good reads if you like this genre of writing.)
Response:
Roger Morgan wrote: > Has anyone tried sleeping with a trickle fed oxygen mask? Maybe the low > oxygen saturation of the blood in OSA is the *cause* not the result? > Perhaps with adequate saturation the throat tissues would not collapse, and > apnea/snoring would not occur?
There are some people who have supplemental O2 fed into the xPAP masks. Most masks have ports that can be unplugged for this purpose. — BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com
Response:
On 8 Sep 1998 01:22:58 GMT, after having stubbed my toe on the damned stairwell, I was temporarily distracted when BigAl <db-g…@bigfoot.com> wrote: >There are some people who have supplemental O2 fed into the xPAP masks. >Most masks have ports that can be unplugged for this purpose.
Yes, and the same manufacturer will also try and buffalo the patient to believe that these same ports are designed to exhaust CO2. Respir-cough! D
Response:
While oxygen can reduce a few apneas and hypopneas, "Trickling" 02 in will not wash out the C02 that will be building up in the mask. Most clinicians will not put a mask on a patient at less than 5 to 6 liters per minute (LPM). At that rate in several hours you lungs can collapse from oxygen absorption atelectasis, which is not a great thing to have happen. The only way to provide a "Trickle" amount 1 to 2 LPM would be with an oxygen cannula or add it to the CPAP. BillsCPAP in Seattle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Roger Morgan wrote in message <6t12m1$d0…@plug.news.pipex.net>… >Has anyone tried sleeping with a trickle fed oxygen mask? Maybe the low >oxygen saturation of the blood in OSA is the *cause* not the result? >Perhaps with adequate saturation the throat tissues would not collapse, and >apnea/snoring would not occur?
Response:
I’ve been wondering about the same thing. If I could just get a little more O2 into my body, why wouldn’t that work just as well as the stupid, intrusive, mouth-drying, pain -in-the-butt CPAP?! Juli
Response:
JuliMN wrote: > I’ve been wondering about the same thing. If I could just get a little more O2 > into my body, why wouldn’t that work just as well as the stupid, intrusive, > mouth-drying, pain -in-the-butt CPAP?! > Juli
If you have OSA the problem is in gettinmg air through your throat. If you stop breathing with an apnea, it makes no difference if you were breathing air or pure O2. You aren’t getting anything into your lungs. — BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com
Response:
On 20 Sep 1998 06:13:09 GMT, jul…@aol.com (JuliMN) wrote: >I’ve been wondering about the same thing. If I could just get a little more O2 >into my body, why wouldn’t that work just as well as the stupid, intrusive, >mouth-drying, pain -in-the-butt CPAP?!
Because it doesn’t fix the failure to exchange air. Having more oxygen won’t make a restart occur — although it may delay it. Also, to get a significant amount of inspired oxygen, it takes equipment that would be quickly derided as "stupid, intrusive, mouth-drying, and pain-in-the-butt." Among the other things, the oxygen has to be at a pressure > 0 above atmospheric or it won’t be inspired in prefernce to normal air? Pressure > 0 is basically CPAP.
Response:
>ve been wondering about the same thing. If I could just get a little more O2 >>into my body, why wouldn’t that work just as well as the stupid, intrusive, >>mouth-drying, pain -in-the-butt CPAP?!
When I finished my sleep study(s) it was determined that my body was down to 40% or less of normal Oxygen function. This was due to the apnea and sleep cessation. I was losing feeling in my hands, feet, was always out of breath, ruddy skin, up 6-7 times a nite to urinate, falling asleep everywhere, including my little fall, clouded eyes, nasty little temper. 8 wks later after using the CPAP I am sleeping through the night every night, no falling asleep during the day since day 2…and the other symptoms noted are long gone… Dry mouth? Try a humidifier 
~~ Pattie* impatr…@aol.com
Response:
Apology ~~ I reread what I had sent and realized it sounded rather snippy… I meant, try a humidifier so that you won’t give up because of the dry mouth… Sorry if I sounded flip, I take OAS very seriously and am grateful to have my little life back sleep and all ~~ Pattie* impatr…@aol.com
Response:
Juli, If you find that CPAP is a pain-in-the-butt, then obviously you are not using it correctly. On the other hand, if it’s a pain in the nose, then you may have some trouble with mask fit, size, or adjustment. If your mouth is drying out, then it’s likely also falling open. A chin strap may help this situation. CPAP is a lot less intrusive than some of the things I can imagine. If you compare it to dialysis, it’s like a gentle spring breeze compared to Dorothy’s Kansas Express Ride to Oz! Same with any procedure involving a sygnoidoscope — now there, you have a real pain in the butt. As far as stupidity, you could always go for the magnetic herbal mattress bandages, but I wouldn’t want to be underwriting your life insurance if you did. They are working on "smarter" CPAP units, including the automatic and demand units. Weather you believe they are ready for prime-time, or still in public beta-testing is your call, but I would volunteer for it, but then, I worked on the design for some similar hardware that I can’t talk about (Non-disclosure and all…). Sincerely, Colin JuliMN <jul…@aol.com> wrote: > I’ve been wondering about the same thing. If I could just get a little > more O2 into my body, why wouldn’t that work just as well as the stupid, > intrusive, mouth-drying, pain -in-the-butt CPAP?! > Juli
– (Note: non-personal email sent to this address will be archived and analysed at a fee of $1/byte, including headers. Sending commercial material to this address constitutes acceptance of these terms. Extra charges apply if research is required to find your billing address.)
Response:
Good point regarding the butt! By the way, does the "Note" at the end of your message help discourage spammers? I just got back from a camping trip… No electrical hookup for the CPAP = poor sleep despite lovely surroundings (Redwood forrest). Now I’m off to look for a battery operated unit or adapter… any recommendations? Thanks in advance to all … Stuart S. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Nova Scotia Bear wrote: > Juli, > If you find that CPAP is a pain-in-the-butt, then obviously you are not > using it correctly. > On the other hand, if it’s a pain in the nose, then you may have some > trouble with mask fit, size, or adjustment. > If your mouth is drying out, then it’s likely also falling open. A chin > strap may help this situation. > CPAP is a lot less intrusive than some of the things I can imagine. If > you compare it to dialysis, it’s like a gentle spring breeze compared to > Dorothy’s Kansas Express Ride to Oz! Same with any procedure involving > a sygnoidoscope — now there, you have a real pain in the butt. > As far as stupidity, you could always go for the magnetic herbal > mattress bandages, but I wouldn’t want to be underwriting your life > insurance if you did. They are working on "smarter" CPAP units, > including the automatic and demand units. Weather you believe they are > ready for prime-time, or still in public beta-testing is your call, but > I would volunteer for it, but then, I worked on the design for some > similar hardware that I can’t talk about (Non-disclosure and all…). > Sincerely, > Colin > JuliMN <jul…@aol.com> wrote: > > I’ve been wondering about the same thing. If I could just get a little > > more O2 into my body, why wouldn’t that work just as well as the stupid, > > intrusive, mouth-drying, pain -in-the-butt CPAP?! > > Juli > — > (Note: non-personal email sent to this address will be archived and > analysed at a fee of $1/byte, including headers. Sending commercial > material to this address constitutes acceptance of these terms. Extra > charges apply if research is required to find your billing address.)
