Sleeping Disorder » REM Sleep Disorder

Anti-Depressants effect on REM sleep?

admin — Sun, 14 Nov 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"Kit" wrote in message

news:KIknd.41880$K7.26886@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Oscar_Lives" wrote in message > news:f6Vld.406919$D%.383615@attbi_s51… >> My latest round of visits to specialists for my sleep disorder are >> getting very interesting. The latest theory is that the Zoloft I take >> for depression/anxiety drastically reduces or eliminates my REM sleep. >> In fact, my latest sleep study confirms that in a three-hour period, I >> only spent a total of 3 minutes in REM. Even though I fall asleep >> immediately when my head hits the pillow and sleep without consciously >> waking up during the night, I spend most of my waking hours dead tired, >> and my entire body hurts. The last sleep study confirmed only one apnea >> during the 3-hour period mentioned above, but brain arousals at the rate >> of >30 times per hour. The docs are trying to figure out how to get more >> REM in my sleep. They say that I am functionally sleep-deprived right >> now. At least they are satisfied that I don’t have a breathing/CPAP >> problem, but that it is a lack of REM problem. >> I’m still researching, but sure would appreciate any comments or info. >> TIA > Interesting. I have the same symptoms as you – dog tired, no breathing > problems, etc etc. Tried using Provigil but it didn’t help much. So now > they are trying anti-depressants on me to see if that helps. Pretty much > the opposite of what you are saying. Could it be the class of medication > perhaps? > Dig back on Preston Crawford’s posts & you’ll see some info / questions > that he has posted before on similar issues. > HTH > Kit

Thanks Kit. Will do some googling.

Response:

My latest round of visits to specialists for my sleep disorder are getting very interesting. The latest theory is that the Zoloft I take for depression/anxiety drastically reduces or eliminates my REM sleep. In fact, my latest sleep study confirms that in a three-hour period, I only spent a total of 3 minutes in REM. Even though I fall asleep immediately when my head hits the pillow and sleep without consciously waking up during the night, I spend most of my waking hours dead tired, and my entire body hurts. The last sleep study confirmed only one apnea during the 3-hour period mentioned above, but brain arousals at the rate of >30 times per hour. The docs are trying to figure out how to get more REM in my sleep. They say that I am functionally sleep-deprived right now. At least they are satisfied that I don’t have a breathing/CPAP problem, but that it is a lack of REM problem. I’m still researching, but sure would appreciate any comments or info. TIA

Response:

"Oscar_Lives" wrote in message

news:f6Vld.406919$D%.383615@attbi_s51… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My latest round of visits to specialists for my sleep disorder are getting > very interesting. The latest theory is that the Zoloft I take for > depression/anxiety drastically reduces or eliminates my REM sleep. In > fact, my latest sleep study confirms that in a three-hour period, I only > spent a total of 3 minutes in REM. Even though I fall asleep immediately > when my head hits the pillow and sleep without consciously waking up > during the night, I spend most of my waking hours dead tired, and my > entire body hurts. The last sleep study confirmed only one apnea during > the 3-hour period mentioned above, but brain arousals at the rate of >30 > times per hour. The docs are trying to figure out how to get more REM in > my sleep. They say that I am functionally sleep-deprived right now. At > least they are satisfied that I don’t have a breathing/CPAP problem, but > that it is a lack of REM problem. > I’m still researching, but sure would appreciate any comments or info. > TIA

Interesting. I have the same symptoms as you – dog tired, no breathing problems, etc etc. Tried using Provigil but it didn’t help much. So now they are trying anti-depressants on me to see if that helps. Pretty much the opposite of what you are saying. Could it be the class of medication perhaps? Dig back on Preston Crawford’s posts & you’ll see some info / questions that he has posted before on similar issues. HTH Kit

Response:

Embarassing problem

admin — Wed, 17 Mar 2004 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I’ve started experiencing problems with urge incontinence at night. One night last week I woke up as I was losing a little urine, but last night (actually 6:00 AM this morning) I woke up soaking myself. Do I just need to do my Kegels, or is there something else I should be looking into? I’m on several meds now and a mess of supplements. Does anyone know if there’s any link to anything one can ingest? I take daily: Zoloft, Atenalol, Metformin, fish oil, flaxseed oil, vitamin E, alpha lipoic acid, Centrum multi-vitamin, baby aspirin, folic acid. I take as needed: Imitrex, naproxyn, Allegra, ibuprofen, buffered aspirin, dyphenhydramine, melatonin, pseudoephedrine. I think that’s it. I have occasional problems with stress incontinence, but aside from once about a year or two ago, this is the first time I’ve had nocturnal problems since I was 8 years old. Thanks! Priscilla

Response:

Priscilla H Ballou wrote in news:c3a9eh$hkl$1@pcls4.std.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve started experiencing problems with urge incontinence at night. > One night last week I woke up as I was losing a little urine, but last > night (actually 6:00 AM this morning) I woke up soaking myself. > Do I just need to do my Kegels, or is there something else I should be > looking into? I’m on several meds now and a mess of supplements. > Does anyone know if there’s any link to anything one can ingest? I > take daily: Zoloft, Atenalol, Metformin, fish oil, flaxseed oil, > vitamin E, alpha lipoic acid, Centrum multi-vitamin, baby aspirin, > folic acid. I take as needed: Imitrex, naproxyn, Allegra, ibuprofen, > buffered aspirin, dyphenhydramine, melatonin, pseudoephedrine. I > think that’s it. > I have occasional problems with stress incontinence, but aside from > once about a year or two ago, this is the first time I’ve had > nocturnal problems since I was 8 years old.

Is your period coming up? That’s when I get a little incontinence, and stressing the Kegels a bit usually clears it right up. Otherwise, I just try to wear the appropriate protection (yuck). Chakolate — Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality. –Bertrand Russell

Response:

Chakolate quoth: >Is your period coming up? That’s when I get a little incontinence, and >stressing the Kegels a bit usually clears it right up. Otherwise, I just >try to wear the appropriate protection (yuck).

It started a couple of days after the first incident, and it’s just winding down now. So there’s diluted blood to be washed out of stuff, not just urine. *sigh* Those Always overnights hold a lot, but not a pint! Priscilla

Response:

"Priscilla H Ballou" wrote in message news:c3a9eh$hkl$1@pcls4.std.com… > I’ve started experiencing problems with urge incontinence at night. One > night last week I woke up as I was losing a little urine, but last night > (actually 6:00 AM this morning) I woke up soaking myself. > Do I just need to do my Kegels, or is there something else I should be > looking into? I’m on several meds now and a mess of supplements. Does > anyone know if there’s any link to anything one can ingest? I take daily: > Zoloft, Atenalol, Metformin, fish oil, flaxseed oil, vitamin E, alpha > lipoic acid, Centrum multi-vitamin, baby aspirin, folic acid. I take as > needed: Imitrex, naproxyn, Allegra, ibuprofen, buffered aspirin, > dyphenhydramine, melatonin, pseudoephedrine. I think that’s it. > I have occasional problems with stress incontinence, but aside from once > about a year or two ago, this is the first time I’ve had nocturnal > problems since I was 8 years old.

Arghhh; major annoying. On the very off-chance: have you checked the PDR (&/or package inserts) for the prescription meds you’re on, just in case the development of lack of bladder muscle control is one of the possible adverse side affects for any of them? Cathy — "Staccato signals of constant information…" ("The Boy in the Bubble") Paul Simon – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thanks! > Priscilla

Response:

>Do I just need to do my Kegels,

Can’t hurt doing those. Sorry I can’t be of any better help! Here’s hoping you get it sorted. Cheers, helen s –This is an invalid email address to avoid spam– to get correct one remove dependency on fame & fortune h*$el*$$e**nd***$o$ts***i*$*$m**m$$o*n**s@$*$a$$o**l.c**$*$om$$

Response:

Cathy Friedmann quoth: >Arghhh; major annoying. On the very off-chance: have you checked the PDR >(&/or package inserts) for the prescription meds you’re on, just in case the >development of lack of bladder muscle control is one of the possible adverse >side affects for any of them?

I hadn’t noticed it on first time through, and I’ve been googling for various combinations of terms including medication names and incontinence. Priscilla

Response:

Susan quoth: >x-no-archive: yes >Kegelkegelkegelkegel. Can’t say that enough. At the computer, watching TV, on >the bus, etc… >Multitask. :-)

OK! I am kegeling as I type! Priscilla

Response:

>OK! I am kegeling as I type! >Priscilla

I am woman! I *can* multitask! Cheers, helen s –This is an invalid email address to avoid spam– to get correct one remove dependency on fame & fortune h*$el*$$e**nd***$o$ts***i*$*$m**m$$o*n**s@$*$a$$o**l.c**$*$om$$

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->From: Priscilla H Ballou >I’ve started experiencing problems with urge incontinence at night. One >night last week I woke up as I was losing a little urine, but last night >(actually 6:00 AM this morning) I woke up soaking myself. >Do I just need to do my Kegels, or is there something else I should be >looking into? I’m on several meds now and a mess of supplements. Does >anyone know if there’s any link to anything one can ingest? I take daily: >Zoloft, Atenalol, Metformin, fish oil, flaxseed oil, vitamin E, alpha >lipoic acid, Centrum multi-vitamin, baby aspirin, folic acid. I take as >needed: Imitrex, naproxyn, Allegra, ibuprofen, buffered aspirin, >dyphenhydramine, melatonin, pseudoephedrine. I think that’s it. >I have occasional problems with stress incontinence, but aside from once >about a year or two ago, this is the first time I’ve had nocturnal >problems since I was 8 years old.

It might pass with time. I didn’t have the incontinence at night..mine was during the day…and the problem did pass. Do you quit taking in liquids a few hours before bedtime? Sharon……..Don’t think of it as getting hot flashes. Think of it as your inner child playing with matches.

Response:

Frankenmel quoth: >It might pass with time. I didn’t have the incontinence at night..mine was >during the day…and the problem did pass. Do you quit taking in liquids a few >hours before bedtime?

I know that will help, but I’ve always woken up with a full bladder plus I often woke up to pee in the night. The difference now is that I’m not waking up! :-0 I actually used to sometimes deliberately drink a glass of water before I went to bed if I knew I would have trouble getting up in the morning but really needed NOT to laze around hitting the snooze bar. I’m told that’s a very old fashioned alarm clock. The legend goes that that was how Native Americans got themselves to get up early to go hunting. Dunno ’bout them, but it worked for me. Past tense. :-( Priscilla

Response:

In article <7cph50tj70vgtl9kv2qvk7cm0qclid3…@4ax.com>, ratatosk wrote: > Is it possible you sleep to deep and don’t wake up to go to the toilet > because you are to tired?

I haven’t been sleeping any differently than for the past 40+ years lately. Priscilla

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -ratatosk wrote: > On Wed, 17 Mar 2004 23:07:39 +0000 (UTC), Priscilla H Ballou > wrote: >>Frankenmel quoth: >>>It might pass with time. I didn’t have the incontinence at night..mine was >>>during the day…and the problem did pass. Do you quit taking in liquids a few >>>hours before bedtime? >>I know that will help, but I’ve always woken up with a full bladder plus I >>often woke up to pee in the night. The difference now is that I’m not >>waking up! :-0 >>I actually used to sometimes deliberately drink a glass of water before I >>went to bed if I knew I would have trouble getting up in the morning but >>really needed NOT to laze around hitting the snooze bar. I’m told that’s >>a very old fashioned alarm clock. The legend goes that that was how >>Native Americans got themselves to get up early to go hunting. Dunno >>’bout them, but it worked for me. Past tense. :-( > Is it possible you sleep to deep and don’t wake up to go to the toilet > because you are to tired?

That used to happen to me and when I did wake up and have to go, I would barely make it to the bathroom. Now with the arthritis in my hip, it sometimes takes more time then normal to stand up during the night, so I wear a pad just in case. sue

Response:

Susan quoth: >x-no-archive: yes >Priscilla, is neurogenic bladder a complication of diabetes? My child >developed a problem during Lyme illness with not feeling the need to pee while >awake until it started to leak out. In that case, doxycycline cleared it up >for good.

Oh, I know when I need to pee. There’s no problem there. >In the case of diabetes involvement, if any, I’d kegel like crazy,

I’ve put that into practice. >maybe shoot >for lower bg targets.

Nope. I don’t live in the house of deprivation, and I have no evidence this is connected to BG. >And exercise, dammit.

Oh, shut up. ;-) Priscilla

Response:

Susan quoth: >x-no-archive: yes >In article , Priscilla H Ballou > writes: >>Oh, I know when I need to pee. There’s no problem there. >Okay, but the sensation isn’t strong enough at night?

It hardly seems like time for generalizations when n=2 and no more than that. >Have you considered a >sleep study, to test for apnea? REM sleep disorder is associated with >nighttime enuresis.

If it persists, then I’ll start looking for zebras. Right now I’m content that it’s peri-related. Priscilla

Response:

Susan quoth: >x-no-archive: yes >In article , Priscilla H Ballou > writes: >>Nope. I don’t live in the house of deprivation, and I have no evidence >>this is connected to BG. >P.S. A very brief google does show a connection between diabetes and enuresis. >If this could be the cause (TBD by you and your endo), and you don’t want to >lower bg with more stringent dieting, then perhaps more meds? >Oh, and did I mention exercise? ;-)

Susan, I mean this in the nicest way, but please lay off. Priscilla

Response:

suf…@aol.comnospam (Susan ) wrote in news:20040318115246.23307.00007371@mb-m29.aol.com: > P.S. A very brief google does show a connection between diabetes and > enuresis. If this could be the cause (TBD by you and your endo), and > you don’t want to lower bg with more stringent dieting, then perhaps > more meds?

But Priscilla’s diabetes is recently diagnosed and under good control, and usually complications of diabetes arise after years of poor control. So I’m inclined to think that may be a bit of a reach. > Oh, and did I mention exercise? ;-)

Careful, Susan. Lest ye find your life (and your head) strewn with bumps. Chakolate — Not to be absolutely certain is, I think, one of the essential things in rationality. –Bertrand Russell

Response:

I’ve had very small similar problems from time to time; never full out wetting myself… I’m not sure about this problem in relation to interaction with any of your meds however I do know that aspirin and ibuprofen should NOT be taken at the same time. Only one thing at a time; ie: aspirin, ibuprofen, or Tylenol but no two together. Very, very bad for the kidneys and liver. You risk renal failure doing that. Have you talked with your primary care physician about all the meds you’re on? That’s the best thing you can do. My doc prescribes all my meds, of which there are many, too, and he can always tell me about any possible harmful interactions. You need to tell him all the supplements you’re on as well. VW "Priscilla H Ballou" wrote in message news:c3a9eh$hkl$1@pcls4.std.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ve started experiencing problems with urge incontinence at night. One > night last week I woke up as I was losing a little urine, but last night > (actually 6:00 AM this morning) I woke up soaking myself. > Do I just need to do my Kegels, or is there something else I should be > looking into? I’m on several meds now and a mess of supplements. Does > anyone know if there’s any link to anything one can ingest? I take daily: > Zoloft, Atenalol, Metformin, fish oil, flaxseed oil, vitamin E, alpha > lipoic acid, Centrum multi-vitamin, baby aspirin, folic acid. I take as > needed: Imitrex, naproxyn, Allegra, ibuprofen, buffered aspirin, > dyphenhydramine, melatonin, pseudoephedrine. I think that’s it. > I have occasional problems with stress incontinence, but aside from once > about a year or two ago, this is the first time I’ve had nocturnal > problems since I was 8 years old. > Thanks! > Priscilla

Response:

VW quoth: >I’ve had very small similar problems from time to time; never full out >wetting myself… >I’m not sure about this problem in relation to interaction with any of your >meds however I do know that aspirin and ibuprofen should NOT be taken at the >same time. Only one thing at a time; ie: aspirin, ibuprofen, or Tylenol but >no two together. Very, very bad for the kidneys and liver. You risk renal >failure doing that.

Not really. It can be very helpful to combine two in certain cases — or Excedrin would have been pulled off the market decades ago. But I don’t usually. >Have you talked with your primary care physician about all the meds you’re >on? That’s the best thing you can do. My doc prescribes all my meds, of >which there are many, too, and he can always tell me about any possible >harmful interactions. You need to tell him all the supplements you’re on as >well.

I see no need to involve the pros unless it really becomes a problem and kegels don’t take care of it. I was just asking if anyone knew anything. Unfortunately, my PCP is an idiot, and I haven’t got a new one yet, so I’m not asking her for any information, only for things I know I need. Most of my meds are prescribed by specialists, and I keep them up-to-date on what the others are prescribing. We haven’t had any interaction problems so far. If this isn’t just one of those peri things, I was thinking it might be one of those known but not publicized side effects of higher doses of Zoloft or metformin. The best way to find out about those is to ask other consumers, IME. So far, low-tech is most helpful — sleeping with as empty a bladder as I can and doing my kegels. Thanks anyway. Priscilla

Response:

Serotonin and Sleep

admin — Sat, 14 Jun 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Bob– You know I respect you. That given: The "Interpretation of Dreams" is the only "original" work of Freud. All of his other stuff, the unconscious, infantile sexuality, etc. can be traced, with good certainty, to prior thinkers. Unfortunately, Freud’s "Interpretation of Dreams", has yieleded NOTHING of value, and is considered, essentially, wrong. No therapist I know places much value on dream interpretation. Sometimes, obvious dreams are "interesting", but are not diagnostic, of anything that cannot be brought out by interview, but are subject to unpredicatable false positives. The history of psychology was a topic I loved in grad. school, and was fortunate enough to have a men like Solomon Diamond, and Vernon Kiker for that topic. They were true scholars, and recognized experts of the "finer" points of history. Jack (a licensed family therapist) http://howtorelax.com

Freud, in "The Interpretation of Dreams," published more than 100 years ago, called them "the royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious activities of the mind." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Bob, this article is right on. Thanks. Here are the parts I’m particularly interested in: "In order to be awake and aware," he said, "the brain needs two chemicals: noradrenaline and serotonin." During slow wave sleep (most of the sleep during the night), the levels of these chemicals fall by half. During REM sleep, the levels drop to nearly zero, and brain activity is dominated by neurons using another chemical: acetylcholine. According to Hobson, during sleep when acetylcholine systems dominate, the noradrenaline and serotonin neurons use this "downtime" to regenerate their transmitters. Acetylcholine systems remain active in both sleep and wakefulness, however.

This is as I suspected. My serotonin is depleted, and because my sleep is disrupted it’s not getting replenished. Now, it seems that this depletion of the serotonin is somehow triggering my cluster headaches. Why would the headaches be more likely to occur during sleep? Perhaps because the serotonin systems are turned off. Imitrex is a a serotonin receptor agonist. So stimulating the receptor aborts the headache. That would suggest that it’s the absence of serotonin stimulation which triggers the headache (or at least facilitates its triggering). Perhaps it would make sense to take L-Tryptophan (precursor amino acid of serotonin).

Response:

Matt, Here is an article that explains some of the basics…sleep/serotonin….I’m pasting the entire article here for reference for anyone interesed in joining the discussion rather than just posting the URL….(borrowed from OUCH) SINCE ANTIQUITY, dreams have evoked curiosity and wonder. Biblical characters found prophecies in them. Freud, in "The Interpretation of Dreams," published more than 100 years ago, called them "the royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious activities of the mind." Modern neuroscientists see the function of sleep and dreaming as slightly more mundane-but nonetheless critical to health. Without sleep, our moods and our memories-even our immune systems-would be profoundly compromised. Dr. J. Allan Hobson, professor of psychiatry at Harvard Medical School and director of the Laboratory of Neurophysiology at the Massachusetts Mental Health Center, has spent more than 40 years studying sleep and dreaming. He is author of "The Chemistry of Conscious States" (Little, Brown, 1994). He describes how our brain chemistry cycles from the dominance of one chemical system to another during wakefulness, slow wave sleep and REM sleep (rapid eye movement sleep, during which most, but not all, dreams occur). "In order to be awake and aware," he said, "the brain needs two chemicals: noradrenaline and serotonin." During slow wave sleep (most of the sleep during the night), the levels of these chemicals fall by half. During REM sleep, the levels drop to nearly zero, and brain activity is dominated by neurons using another chemical: acetylcholine. According to Hobson, during sleep when acetylcholine systems dominate, the noradrenaline and serotonin neurons use this "downtime" to regenerate their transmitters. Acetylcholine systems remain active in both sleep and wakefulness, however. The two systems work in contrast with each other, so if there is too much activity in one, the other will attempt to slow it down and vice versa with too little activity. The balance between these systems is lost during depression and other mood disorders, however-which is why sleep disturbances (either too much or too little) almost always accompany depression. Drugs used to treat depression-like Prozac-tend to increase the activity of the serotonin system. "The serotonin system is like the heart of the brain," said Hobson. "Its cells are like the pacemaker cells of the heart. They fire automatically and rhythmically and send axons all over the brain." In fact, the heart itself actually includes serotonin receptors, and some researchers believe this may account for the link seen between cardiac problems and depression. Hobson says that sometimes the serotonin antidepressants (SSRIs) like Prozac end up causing disruptions of their own. REM sleep disorder, in which people physically act out their dreams, has occurred in some patients taking these drugs. "SSRIs can raise hell with motor systems in sleep," said Hobson. "It’s appropriate to warn people at this point, but not to panic. There is just no free lunch if you play with sleep control systems." Serotonin and noradrenaline are also necessary for attention and memory. "In order to have this conversation, there are cells firing all the time," Hobson said. "The minute you start to lose attention, the levels of serotonin and noradrenaline start to fall." The disturbances of concentration and memory seen in depression are probably accounted for by this connection. Most dreams aren’t pleasant-raising another possible connection between sleep and mood problems. Hobson’s group has found that during dreams, three emotions dominate: anxiety, anger and elation, meaning your odds are two in three of feeling bad in a dream. "These emotions could fit into the depressive spectrum , but in dreams, the aminergic [dopamine and noradrenaline] deficit is acute and restored immediately upon waking. Depression takes days or weeks to develop." Dreams are hard to remember because noradrenaline and serotonin are virtually unavailable during REM sleep. These substances are needed to record memories. You can recall a dream that immediately preceded awakening, because the noradrenaline and serotonin systems come back online as you wake up. But if you shift your attention at all while you wake, you will often find that the memory of the dream vanishes. Recent research shows that during dreaming, the rational, decision-making part of the brain is quiet while emotional areas take over. "In dreams, you don’t know where you are, you can’t remember things, there is no analytic capability, but perception and emotions are very strong," said Hobson, explaining that this is linked to the lack of activity in the prefrontal cortex and increased activity in central brain areas. He also pointed out that dreams are "hyper-associative," with scenarios shifting from one to another via connections and associations probably known only to the dreamer. A body of evidence now shows that one function of dreaming and sleep is memory consolidation and processing, which might explain these weird associations. Sleep-deprived people remember less well, and skills learned before sleep actually improve (with no additional practice) upon awakening. "Memory is probably organized in several ways in the brain," Hobson said. "There is meta-knowledge [knowledge about how you know things and deal with them], orientation knowledge-which is probably emotionally guided so that when you walk out the door, you know whether a place is dangerous or not, and also procedural knowledge. Walking and other banal things we take for granted-these systems are not trivial to maintain. Try walking without a mechanism [for doing it without conscious thought]." Sleep and dreaming help maintain your brain’s information systems. "You run the system offline and tie in new information according to some rules," said Hobson. Though many say lack of sleep can’t kill you, in fact, if you went without for long enough, it could. Sleep is crucial to immune function, and animals deprived of it often die of infections. Evolutionarily, sleep has several purposes, though it might appear to make an animal more vulnerable to predators. "It makes sense to get animals off the street at night," Hobson said. "It is thermally efficient and it reinforces biologically significant connections between couples and families." Hobson’s next book will deal with psychedelic drugs. Interestingly, LSD acts on the serotonin system, though in a quite different way than antidepressants do. The book will examine how LSD trips are virtually "dreaming while awake" and what psychedelics can help scientists learn about the brain. For more on Serotonin and its relationships to clusters…check out the rest of the OUCH library at: http://www.clusterheadaches.org/library/serotonin/index.htm BTW, sansert is no longer manufactured in the US. You’ll have to order methysergide from Canada or Europe. It was quite effective for me on several cycles but didn’t work after taking one of the 30 day vacations from it to avoid the fibrosis.

Response:

Matt, I don’t have clusters but my boss does. We talked at length about this because he goes to bed anywhere from 2-4 a.m. and wakes up at 6. He rarely sleeps, says he just isn’t tired. When I showed him the discussions on this group about clusters and the sleep issues, he concurred. He thinks he has gotten used to little sleep because he is so afraid of it. He only gets about three cluster episodes in a month (I say only because I get my migraines so much more frequently). And he used to get them more at night before he went on Propranalol. Now he might get them on a Saturday afternoon and they’ll hit him off an on until maybe 24 hours later. So, not sure about that. I also know he has mood swings…can be happy one day and depressed the next. He’s an engineer and typically very logical in nature, but the depression surprises me. It is untreated…he hates drugs But that’s another possible seratonin issue. Just some thoughts, Michelle

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’d like to initiate a discussion of sleep and serotonin. I keep coming back to this because my cluster headaches occur more readily when I’m sleep-deprived. Since serotonin receptors are involved in sleep, but also in cluster headaches (and migraines), there’s a relationship here. It occurs to me that, when I sleep, something gets replenished. Could this be serotonin? If that’s the case, perhaps the headaches occur more readily when the serotonin level is low. So one treatment for cluster headaches would be getting a good 8 hours of sleep daily. It’s a vicious cycle, though, because the headaches come on during sleep. I find that I can’t sleep more than 2 hours without waking to a headache. I use the Imitrex injection, and it wakes me up. I have 2 hours of euphoria, then feel sleepy, go to sleep for an hour, and wake with another headache. Warm milk does something that induces sleep, and I think it’s related to Serotonin. Perhaps warm milk is a treatment for cluster headaches? I’m thinking Sansert (methylsergide) might be a good drug for me. I’ve always been hesitant to use it because of the risk of retroperitoneal fibrosis. But the mechanism of action is appealing: it’s a serotonin agonist. Anyway, I’d only need to use it for 2 to 3 months, so the risk of retroperitoneal fibrosis would be less.

Response:

I’d like to initiate a discussion of sleep and serotonin. I keep coming back to this because my cluster headaches occur more readily when I’m sleep-deprived. Since serotonin receptors are involved in sleep, but also in cluster headaches (and migraines), there’s a relationship here. It occurs to me that, when I sleep, something gets replenished. Could this be serotonin? If that’s the case, perhaps the headaches occur more readily when the serotonin level is low. So one treatment for cluster headaches would be getting a good 8 hours of sleep daily. It’s a vicious cycle, though, because the headaches come on during sleep. I find that I can’t sleep more than 2 hours without waking to a headache. I use the Imitrex injection, and it wakes me up. I have 2 hours of euphoria, then feel sleepy, go to sleep for an hour, and wake with another headache. Warm milk does something that induces sleep, and I think it’s related to Serotonin. Perhaps warm milk is a treatment for cluster headaches? I’m thinking Sansert (methylsergide) might be a good drug for me. I’ve always been hesitant to use it because of the risk of retroperitoneal fibrosis. But the mechanism of action is appealing: it’s a serotonin agonist. Anyway, I’d only need to use it for 2 to 3 months, so the risk of retroperitoneal fibrosis would be less.

Response:

That’s "probably" a different "kind" of delusion, but it would certainly involve (philosophically) the concept of "self". You’ve (once again, given me something to think about), as perhaps the same constructs, and/or intervening variables are involved. Do you think his BRAIN was "struggling" with who he was, and that the medicines for schizophrenia might affect receptors involved in the concept of self? Jack – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you Jack. I’m not really sure why the author even opened the article with that except to "name drop" It really didn’t fit into the subject matter. That said, since I posted it, I guess I was, in effect, agreeing with all that was written. I should have done some snipping. I agree that dream interpretation has probably done much more harm than good. I can only imagine all the people told that they had a mother complex if they dreamed of milking cows. (Although Freud probably would have concentrated more on Bulls After watching A Beautiful Mind today for about the 5th time, I’m still trying to come up with an original thought of my own to answer your question regarding psychological vs. physical ailments. I think this may have been the question that caused Nash to suffer from delusions. You didn’t ask him that question 30 years ago did you? BobW Bob– You know I respect you. That given: The "Interpretation of Dreams" is the only "original" work of Freud. All of his other stuff, the unconscious, infantile sexuality, etc. can be traced, with good certainty, to prior thinkers. Unfortunately, Freud’s "Interpretation of Dreams", has yieleded NOTHING of value, and is considered, essentially, wrong. No therapist I know places much value on dream interpretation. Sometimes, obvious dreams are "interesting", but are not diagnostic, of anything that cannot be brought out by interview, but are subject to unpredicatable false positives. The history of psychology was a topic I loved in grad. school, and was fortunate enough to have a men like Solomon Diamond, and Vernon Kiker for that topic. They were true scholars, and recognized experts of the "finer" points of history. Jack (a licensed family therapist) http://howtorelax.com Freud, in "The Interpretation of Dreams," published more than 100 years ago, called them "the royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious activities of the mind."

Response:

Tryptophan (which many people think was/is banned in the US) is available. From what I understand, it is quite easily converted into serotonin and passes the blood-brain barrior readily, increasing the serotonin levels. Tryptophan is easily absorbed by the gut and eating tryptophan rich foods can increase the levels also. Some cluster people eat a lot of turkey just for this reason. When we men go for a nap on Thanksgiving, there is a very good reason for this. The tryptophan is readily absorbed and converted, relaxing your entire system, including your blood vessels….or so the theory goes. Other’s have/do try using 5-HTP supplements but as I understand, this is not easily absorbed by the gut and better results are seen when it’s given via an IV. BobW

That’s where Matt’s warm milk question comes in. It’s high in trytophan. Ginnie

Response:

I don’t relate clusters to migraine, but, then again, when women have clusters, they are often atypical, and this must also be accounted for. Are they, perhaps, having clustered migraines (or, migrainous clusters), which they often look like. When the treatments are very close (but, oxygen has never been shown to work in migraine), that further confuses the issue.

Adding confusion here is the fact [?] that the percentages of men vs. women has been steadily growing closer together. It used to be reported as an 8:1 men more often than women. The latest studies I’ve seen have the percentage just over 2:1 Conjecture as to why this is happening appears to be widespread. BobW

Response:

Taking serotonin precursers has not been shown effective…. I see. I don’t beleive serotonin "levels" are worthwhile had it’s considered spillage… Where does the spillage come in? What’s the idea behind that?

Spillage is often the word used, but it essentially refers to the fact that, serum levels may not reflect if the drug is where it anatomically needs to be. For instance, Imitrex does NOT cross the blood barrier, unlike Zomig, unless I’ve missed an AWFUL lot of new work. Yet, you have first hand knowledge of the efficacy of Imitrex. I just checked Medline, and found this, btw: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubM… I’ve attended lectures where it was said that migraines are caused by inflammation in the brainstem, specifically in association with the 5th cranial nerve, and that serotonin receptors mediate this inflammation in some manner.

Yes, but I was talking about clusters, and, that is the Moskowitz theory (about migraine), now, primarily advanced by Goadsby. I (and many HA docs, which I don’t pretend to be (my formal academic background is physiological psych.) have always had some doubts about that model, and the efficacy of Imitrex has not been answered to my satisfaction. Again, the mechanism of action of Imitrex, which works, does not fit the theoretical model upon which it is based (IMVHO). The interesting thing to me is that clusters respond so magically (in most cases) to Imitrex injection, yet have characteristitcs of a 7th n. problem, which is not a target of Imitrex. What characteristics of the 7th? It’s the 5th, I believe. 7th is the muscles of facial expression, which are not involved. But the muscles of mastication certainly are, and that’s 5th.

I think if you consult any recent neuroanatomy text, it will described the 7th n. as a "mixed" nerve with both motor and sensory components. I was also incomplete, because of my background in ANS, I almost always focus on its parasympathetic outflow. You were speaking from the standpooint of a physician which you are. Anyhow, of course, virtually ALL head pain ends up carried by the trigeminal, and I would certainly never dispute that fact. But, I have always felt that cluster involved the 7th n. parasympathetic (visceral, cholinergic MOTOR component). 7th n. ANS motor fibers control lacrimation (a symptom of cluster), nasal congestion (a symptom of cluster), the paranasal sinuses (another area close to the eye), etc. This component is pretty much under "direct" control of the hypothalamus (the circadian aspect of cluster), etc. If this were to storm out of control, one might have a cluster, as sensed by the 5th n. Just a conjecture. I don’t relate clusters to migraine, but, then again, when women have clusters, they are often atypical, and this must also be accounted for. Are they, perhaps, having clustered migraines (or, migrainous clusters), which they often look like. When the treatments are very close (but, oxygen has never been shown to work in migraine), that further confuses the issue. Finally, the teaching of the ANS as only a motor system is anatomically incorrect. Not only have ANS AFFERENTS been identified, but it only makes sense that they would work via a negative feedback control mechanism, as in the CNS. Jack

Response:

Taking serotonin precursers has not been shown effective….

I see. I don’t beleive serotonin "levels" are worthwhile had it’s considered spillage…

Where does the spillage come in? What’s the idea behind that? I’ve attended lectures where it was said that migraines are caused by inflammation in the brainstem, specifically in association with the 5th cranial nerve, and that serotonin receptors mediate this inflammation in some manner. The interesting thing to me is that clusters respond so magically (in most cases) to Imitrex injection, yet have characteristitcs of a 7th n. problem, which is not a target of Imitrex.

What characteristics of the 7th? It’s the 5th, I believe. 7th is the muscles of facial expression, which are not involved. But the muscles of mastication certainly are, and that’s 5th.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob, this article is right on. Thanks. Here are the parts I’m particularly interested in: "In order to be awake and aware," he said, "the brain needs two chemicals: noradrenaline and serotonin." During slow wave sleep (most of the sleep during the night), the levels of these chemicals fall by half. During REM sleep, the levels drop to nearly zero, and brain activity is dominated by neurons using another chemical: acetylcholine. According to Hobson, during sleep when acetylcholine systems dominate, the noradrenaline and serotonin neurons use this "downtime" to regenerate their transmitters. Acetylcholine systems remain active in both sleep and wakefulness, however. This is as I suspected. My serotonin is depleted, and because my sleep is disrupted it’s not getting replenished. Now, it seems that this depletion of the serotonin is somehow triggering my cluster headaches. Why would the headaches be more likely to occur during sleep? Perhaps because the serotonin systems are turned off. Imitrex is a a serotonin receptor agonist. So stimulating the receptor aborts the headache. That would suggest that it’s the absence of serotonin stimulation which triggers the headache (or at least facilitates its triggering). Perhaps it would make sense to take L-Tryptophan (precursor amino acid of serotonin).

Specifically though, Imitrex is a 5HT-51d(Alpha) agonist. The contribution of the various receptor sub-types involved in individual HAs is a tough problem, but Imitrex has around an 80% effective rate. Taking serotonin precursers has not been shown effective, unless lrobb knows something more on this. I don’t beleive serotonin "levels" are worthwhile had it’s considered spillage, jugular vein studies excepted. The interesting thing to me is that clusters respond so magically (in most cases) to Imitrex injection, yet have characteristitcs of a 7th n. problem, which is not a target of Imitrex. And, the 7th n. is a parasympathetic, cholinergic innervated bundle of fibers (cranial outflow). Perhaps, this fits in with what you are saying. The 7th nerve can also coarse very close to the 5th n. at the spenopalatine g. This is the putative site for the action of cocaine and lidocaine for clusters. Our work with migraine, btw, cannot be replicated double-blind by us, yet we have patients that responded magically to its use in migraine. This is could be due to an anatomical distinction based upon the closeness of the 2 nerves referred to above. Deva- I haven’t forgot that I owe you an answer. I always get the last work on that topic

Response:

Specifically though, Imitrex is a 5HT-51d(Alpha) agonist. The contribution of the various receptor sub-types involved in individual HAs is a tough problem, but Imitrex has around an 80% effective rate. Taking serotonin precursers has not been shown effective, unless lrobb knows something more on this. I don’t beleive serotonin "levels" are worthwhile had it’s considered spillage, jugular vein studies excepted. The interesting thing to me is that clusters respond so magically (in most cases) to Imitrex injection, yet have characteristitcs of a 7th n. problem, which is not a target of Imitrex. And, the 7th n. is a parasympathetic, cholinergic innervated bundle of fibers (cranial outflow). Perhaps, this fits in with what you are saying. The 7th nerve can also coarse very close to the 5th n. at the spenogalatine g. This is the putative site for the action of cocaine and lidocaine for clusters. Our work with migraine, btw, cannot be replicated double-blind by us, yet we have patients that responded magically to its use in migraine. This is could be due to an anatomical distinction based upon the closeness of the 21 neerves are referred to above. Deva- I haven’t forgot that I owe you an answer. I always get the last work on that topic

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob, this article is right on. Thanks. Here are the parts I’m particularly interested in: "In order to be awake and aware," he said, "the brain needs two chemicals: noradrenaline and serotonin." During slow wave sleep (most of the sleep during the night), the levels of these chemicals fall by half. During REM sleep, the levels drop to nearly zero, and brain activity is dominated by neurons using another chemical: acetylcholine. According to Hobson, during sleep when acetylcholine systems dominate, the noradrenaline and serotonin neurons use this "downtime" to regenerate their transmitters. Acetylcholine systems remain active in both sleep and wakefulness, however. This is as I suspected. My serotonin is depleted, and because my sleep is disrupted it’s not getting replenished.

I think that some (many?) migraineurs are only able to get relief after they’ve been able to fall asleep…getting a good night’s rest and waking up without a migraine. Many then slowly build up the pain again as the day goes on. Clusterers have a slightly different problem to contend with, that being the REM sleep triggering the attacks, making this "healing" sleep, nearly impossible. Often with my worst cluster cycles, they continue to get worse as I become more sleep deprived. Try as I do to get sleep, sometimes it just seems to get away from me and I end up with attacks every 2 hours, around the clock. Now, it seems that this depletion of the serotonin is somehow triggering my cluster headaches.

I’m sure there is more up to date info available but I think this is still true…. "Serotonin alterations are more subtle in patients with cluster headache than in migraine. Medina et al (1979) found modest elevations of serotonin in whole blood during attacks of cluster headache, whereas platelet serotonin levels fall precipitously during migraine attacks. Waldenlind et al, (1985) found low whole blood serotonin levels among cluster patients both during an active bout and during remissions, comparable to levels found among migraine patients." Whether or not any of these tests were done during a REM sleep attack, I don’t know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Why would the headaches be more likely to occur during sleep? Perhaps because the serotonin systems are turned off. Imitrex is a a serotonin receptor agonist. So stimulating the receptor aborts the headache. That would suggest that it’s the absence of serotonin stimulation which triggers the headache (or at least facilitates its triggering). Perhaps it would make sense to take L-Tryptophan (precursor amino acid of serotonin).

Response:

Thank you Jack. I’m not really sure why the author even opened the article with that except to "name drop" It really didn’t fit into the subject matter. That said, since I posted it, I guess I was, in effect, agreeing with all that was written. I should have done some snipping. I agree that dream interpretation has probably done much more harm than good. I can only imagine all the people told that they had a mother complex if they dreamed of milking cows. (Although Freud probably would have concentrated more on Bulls After watching A Beautiful Mind today for about the 5th time, I’m still trying to come up with an original thought of my own to answer your question regarding psychological vs. physical ailments. I think this may have been the question that caused Nash to suffer from delusions. You didn’t ask him that question 30 years ago did you? BobW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bob– You know I respect you. That given: The "Interpretation of Dreams" is the only "original" work of Freud. All of his other stuff, the unconscious, infantile sexuality, etc. can be traced, with good certainty, to prior thinkers. Unfortunately, Freud’s "Interpretation of Dreams", has yieleded NOTHING of value, and is considered, essentially, wrong. No therapist I know places much value on dream interpretation. Sometimes, obvious dreams are "interesting", but are not diagnostic, of anything that cannot be brought out by interview, but are subject to unpredicatable false positives. The history of psychology was a topic I loved in grad. school, and was fortunate enough to have a men like Solomon Diamond, and Vernon Kiker for that topic. They were true scholars, and recognized experts of the "finer" points of history. Jack (a licensed family therapist) http://howtorelax.com Freud, in "The Interpretation of Dreams," published more than 100 years ago, called them "the royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious activities of the mind."

Response:

Spillage is often the word used, but it essentially refers to the fact that, serum levels may not reflect if the drug is where it anatomically needs to be.

Yes, point taken. For instance, Imitrex does NOT cross the blood barrier, unlike Zomig, unless I’ve missed an AWFUL lot of new work. Yet, you have first hand knowledge of the efficacy of Imitrex.

My understanding is that Zomig is unique in that it crosses the blood-brain barrier. As an oral agent, it works better for me than other oral triptans. Imitrex (and other agents as well) will cross the blood-brain barrier when it’s leaky, which it is at the onset of a migraine (when the inflammation is high, presumably). So Imitrex and other agents besides Zomig should work better at the onset of a migraine. But, I have always felt that cluster involved the 7th n. parasympathetic (visceral, cholinergic MOTOR component). 7th n. ANS motor fibers control lacrimation (a symptom of cluster), nasal congestion (a symptom of cluster), the paranasal sinuses (another area close to the eye), etc.

Okay, I see what you’re getting at. Horner’s syndrome. It’s mediated by the sympathetic chain, which comes from the thoracic spinal cord and comes back up through the neck, up into the head. Not really part of the 7th nerve, but perhaps associated with it when all the nerves get wrapped around each other in the face. This component is pretty much under "direct" control of the hypothalamus (the circadian aspect of cluster), etc. If this were to storm out of control, one might have a cluster, as sensed by the 5th n.

It occurs to me that the circadian aspect might just be the depletion of serotonin, and its failure to sufficiently replenish during the inadequate sleep we clusterers get. Also, the Horner’s syndrome could be the inflammation of the carotid artery affecting the sympathetic chain, which wraps around it. Today I got some pretty good sleep for a change. I had upped my dose of Coreg (a beta blocker). The beta blocker decreases the norepinephrine surges, thereby suppressing the migraine. So, it’s all coming together: The headaches are triggered by excessive norepinephrine and dopamine activity, and suppressed by adequate serotonin activity. Tyramine-containing foods increase norepinephrine and dopamine, so should be avoided. Sleep replenishes serotonin, so should be maximized. Beta blockers decrease norepinephrine, so are effective. Triptans increase serotonin, so abort the headaches.

Response:

Well, personally I think his mind was struggling with that which we all struggle. He seemed (s) torn between who he thought he was, who he thought he should be, and who his environment thought he should be. He being a problem solver…..tried to be all three and succeeded in some ways. From an untrained but interested observer, I tend to believe the following. We are born who we are, and left completely alone from birth, would develope in a predetermined way, making decisions as we go based upon our genetic makeup. However, from the minute we are born, our environment tries to mold us into its own preconceived notions of what we should be and how we should develope/act. I doubt we are in a very good mood the minutes following birth but the first thing we are "taught" is that we should be smiling, as Mom and Dad make their funny voices, telling us to smile, until finally some day we do. One of the biggest days in the life of new parents is the first day they see their baby smile. Makes them think they are providing a happy environment for their child. In a strange way, the environment may not be a very happy one, as most of us would describe, but the child then learns what they are "supposed" to be happy about. "Oh look, daddy is yelling at mommy and now mommy is over here picking me up telling me that everything is ok and that I should be happy. Maybe daddys are supposed to yell at mommy." I found the personas that Nash concocted were extremely interesting and telling. His friend, being society and his desire to fit in with the environment around him. (What he thinks his environment wants him to be) The little girl, his desire to teach and relate back to a time in his life when nothing was required of him. (What he wants to be, who he is, what makes him happy) The government agent, his desire to be an important factor in changing/participating in helping the world be a better place. To improve life. (What he "thinks" his environment wants of him. People with his attributes should make a positive impact on the world.) I think that the medications he was/is taking probably quiet down a couple of the voices. They probably don’t work "well" because we as a society try to quiet down two (in his case) of the voices, leaving only what society thinks he should be, and not who he really is. I think that with a mind such as Nash’s, his neural pathways are more open and active than we "normal" people, for lack of a better definition. If my mind is the Illinois River, his is the Mississippi. But, as his sense of self is probably much stronger than the average person, so too are those pathways that feed perception of the environment around him. Hence his strong desire to be what others think he should be (the perception of his disappointment of others would be magnified) and his view of what he should become, what he should accomplish, is magnified. I can’t imagine him not having similar problems no matter where/what his environment had been. Had he been born on an island and raised by monkeys, I think he would have gone nuts trying to make the monkeys talk and would have delusions of one monkey that could talk to him. Without drugs and a judgemental society around him, he probably would have lead a very happy life and we’d probably be importing wicker baskets from his island filled with more highly evolved monkeys as the laborers. BobW Please no remarks from my "fans" as to my mind being closer to a creekbed than the Illinois River. Remember, it’s Fathers Day…be nice to me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thank you Jack. I’m not really sure why the author even opened the article with that except to "name drop" It really didn’t fit into the subject matter. That said, since I posted it, I guess I was, in effect, agreeing with all that was written. I should have done some snipping. I agree that dream interpretation has probably done much more harm than good. I can only imagine all the people told that they had a mother complex if they dreamed of milking cows. (Although Freud probably would have concentrated more on Bulls After watching A Beautiful Mind today for about the 5th time, I’m still trying to come up with an original thought of my own to answer your question regarding psychological vs. physical ailments. I think this may have been the question that caused Nash to suffer from delusions. You didn’t ask him that question 30 years ago did you? BobW Bob– You know I respect you. That given: The "Interpretation of Dreams" is the only "original" work of Freud. All of his other stuff, the unconscious, infantile sexuality, etc. can be traced, with good certainty, to prior thinkers. Unfortunately, Freud’s "Interpretation of Dreams", has yieleded NOTHING of value, and is considered, essentially, wrong. No therapist I know places much value on dream interpretation. Sometimes, obvious dreams are "interesting", but are not diagnostic, of anything that cannot be brought out by interview, but are subject to unpredicatable false positives. The history of psychology was a topic I loved in grad. school, and was fortunate enough to have a men like Solomon Diamond, and Vernon Kiker for that topic. They were true scholars, and recognized experts of the "finer" points of history. Jack (a licensed family therapist) http://howtorelax.com Freud, in "The Interpretation of Dreams," published more than 100 years ago, called them "the royal road to a knowledge of the unconscious activities of the mind."

Response:

It is news to me that this is happening. Do you have a citation? Maybe it’s a viral STD

Delayed diagnosis of cluster headache in African-American women. Wheeler SD, Carrazana EJ. Neurologic Center of South Florida, Miami, FL 33176, USA. The male-to-female ratio has fallen in cluster headache over the last several decades and is now 2.1:1. Unfortunately, women still are not diagnosed accurately. This lack of appropriate diagnosis appears related to the misconception that cluster headache rarely occurs in women. Compounding this misconception, there seems to be an ethnic bias. We report cluster headache in five African-American women in whom diagnosis was delayed due to gender, ethnicity, and, most importantly, an inability to make a correct diagnosis of cluster headache. Cluster headache diagnostic criteria are no different in men or women and have no ethnic boundaries. Clinical features such as disordered chronobiology and abnormal behavior often suggest the diagnosis. Migrainous features occur commonly in cluster headache and, when present, should not exclude the diagnosis. Likewise, neither race nor sex should exclude the diagnosis. The diagnosis of cluster headache is easily made by considering unilateral orbital, supraorbital or temporal location; short duration (15-180 minutes, untreated), and ipsilateral autonomic dysfunction involving the eye or nose. Manzoni GC Headache Centre, Institute of Neurology, University of Parma, Italy. Changes in the male-to-female (M/F) ratio of cluster headache (CH) over the years were investigated through a comparative analysis of the distribution of the disease by sex and decade of onset in 482 patients (374M and 108F). Variations over the last few decades were also investigated in the employment rate, level of school education, smoking habit, and coffee and alcohol intake of the population living in the same area as the CH patients. The M/F ratio has fallen from 6.2:1 for patients with CH onset before 1960, to 5.6:1, 4.3:1, 3.0:1, and 2.1:1 for patients with CH onset in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, respectively. Correspondingly, in those same decades, the M/F ratio has fallen from 2.6:1 to 2.4:1, 2.2:1, and 1.7:1, respectively, for the employment rate, and from 8.6:1 to 7.8:1, 3.3:1, 2.5:1, and 1.9:1 for the smoking habit. Such a close correlation suggests that the significant changes that have occurred over the last few decades in the lifestyle of both sexes–and particularly that of women–may have played a major role in altering the gender ratio of CH. I do have some doubts as to the studies findings. Wondering if the results were sought out to meet specific environmental components or if these components were never considered until "after" the results were available. Whatever the case, the ratio does appear to be falling, based soley upon my observations. BobW

Response:

Funny…..I was actually going to write that I hoped that clusters hadn’t evolved into an STD …LOL I’ll find some citations. BobW

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It is news to me that this is happening. Do you have a citation? Maybe it’s a viral STD

Response:

It is news to me that this is happening. Do you have a citation? Maybe it’s a viral STD

Response:

What this mean: Woke suddenly from REM

admin — Wed, 11 Jun 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I know nothing about sleep phases. I took a second sleep study to set the air rate, or whatever it’s called. The tech told me I woke immediately from REM when she upped the rate to 13. The CPAP unit was set higher than the bed and the humidifier was spitting through the tube. As I lay there awake I found myself growing anxious. I finally pulled the mask off. I’m sure not a sissy but putting that mask on felt really forboding. The water spitting hadn’t stopped and the tech wouldn’t turn off the humidifier. It felt like I was trying to breathe in a hurricane. I lay there getting more anxious every time I picked up the mask to put it back on. The tech promised to turn it back to 11 until I slept again, but even that assurance left me anxious. She finally decided I was going to flip out and called the procedure done. She said she’s presuming I’m going to need 13. So, is it unusual or somehow telling that I woke so suddenly? How do I interprete this?

Response:

> I know nothing about sleep phases. I took a second sleep study to set the > air rate, or whatever it’s called. The tech told me I woke immediately from > REM when she upped the rate to 13.

there are basically five sleep stages. stage 1 & 2 are light sleep, stages 3 & 4 are deep sleep (also referred to as slow wave sleep – sws) and REM – REM is the stage where you dream. Did you remember dreaming anything when you woke up that time? we usually forget dreams almost immediately. I guess it was your body’s way of saying "hey, something’s going on here" when it detected the higher pressure during your sleep. Your body does adjust to different pressures as it needs to though. > The CPAP unit was set higher than the bed and the humidifier was > spitting through the tube. As I lay there awake I found myself growing > anxious. I finally pulled the mask off. > I’m sure not a sissy but putting that mask on felt really forboding. The > water spitting hadn’t stopped and the tech wouldn’t turn off the humidifier. > It felt like I was trying to breathe in a hurricane

it makes me so angry to hear stories like this. What you experienced is called "rainout" when the humidifier temp is too high in comparisson to the temp of the room causing the water to condense in the mask and tubing. The best solution is to turn the temp of the humidifier down. The sleep tech should NEVER have made you use the humidifier at a level where it was causing rainout and making you feel uncomfortable (not to mention wet!). Your comment about the humidifer being higher than the bed also amazes me……logical thinking means you put it at a lower level than the person it’s attached to. You weren’t being a sissy at all, even if it hadn’t been for the rainout you may have still felt a bit uncomfortable, it’s not uncommon, afterall it’s not natural to sleep with something covering your face! It is something that almost everybody gets used to however, most pretty quickly. there are some suggestions on the newsgroup website that may help with issues like that at http://talhost.net/sleep/cpap.htm > I lay there getting more anxious every time I picked up the mask to put > it back on. The tech promised to turn it back to 11 until I slept again, but > even that assurance left me anxious. She finally decided I was going to flip > out and called the procedure done. She said she’s presuming I’m going to > need 13.

That doesn’t sound good enough to me….. with CPAP "near enough" isn’t usually good enough. But then without knowing all the details of what information they managed to detect it’s hard to say whether it was reasonable for them to quit like that or not. > So, is it unusual or somehow telling that I woke so suddenly? How do I > interprete this?

I’m not sure it’s unusual to react to an increase in pressure, there could have even been a combination of factors that made you wake up at that point in time. I wouldn’t let it concern you too much. When will you get your CPAP? — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

Response:

Thanks for your thoughtful answers. And, the link for more information. I don’t know when I’ll get my CPAP. Maybe never if I’m required to do a third sleep test. These costs add up. Thanks again. "Tal" wrote in message

news:bc7qp4$f458q$1@ID-148111.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When will you get your CPAP? > — > Beth in Australia > =================== > FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here > http://talhost.net/sleep > this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles > Remove my name to reply

Response:

Dreams & NEs

admin — Tue, 25 Jun 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Judy Simon wrote: >> It happens to women too, it’s just not as obvious. >> http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/basics/questions101/chapter3.htm#Ch3-q23 >Hmm, and to think I was coming here to learn about sleep apnea >Actually, I wonder if uterine contractions occurring during REM sleep >are associated with a higher-than-expected % of women going into labor >during the night.

I don’t think giving birth is a sleep disorder, although the results can cause sleepless nights for many years. I don’t know of any statistics on labor onset versus time of day, but your theory sure sounds plausible. If the statistics are correct, then maybe women who go into labor during the daytime should be evaluated for a sleep disorder? Tom

Response:

> I don’t know of any statistics on labor onset versus time of day, but > your theory sure sounds plausible. If the statistics are correct, then > maybe women who go into labor during the daytime should be evaluated > for a sleep disorder?

I know that a LOT more women go into labour during the night than do during the day…..can’t remember the stats either but it’s a definate majority. — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote: > I don’t think giving birth is a sleep disorder, although the results > can cause sleepless nights for many years.

Too bad I didn’t know anything about sleep disorders 23 years ago when my first son was born, because that’s when I first began feeling pathologically tired If I didn’t have my mother to help me back then I don’t know how I would have made it. I attributed it to having a kid who didn’t sleep much… then I attributed it to having 2, 3, then 4 kids. But in all these years I never regained my energy. Now I know why. > I don’t know of any statistics on labor onset versus time of day, but > your theory sure sounds plausible. If the statistics are correct, then > maybe women who go into labor during the daytime should be evaluated > for a sleep disorder?

Hmmm, any grad students around here looking for a thesis topic? Judy

Response:

On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:05:54 -0400, Tom Devlin wrote: >I don’t know of any statistics on labor onset versus time of day, but >your theory sure sounds plausible. If the statistics are correct, then >maybe women who go into labor during the daytime should be evaluated >for a sleep disorder?

Dr. Sullivan did a study and discovered that pre-eclampsia patients may actually have sleep apnea. Just imagine putting a CPAP mask on a ready-to-pop pregnant woman… they’re uncomfortable enough to begin with. — NEWS FLASH: Pacifists declare jihad on war toys!

Response:

Judy Simon wrote: >Too bad I didn’t know anything about sleep disorders 23 years ago when >my first son was born, because that’s when I first began feeling >pathologically tired If I didn’t have my mother to help me >back then I don’t know how I would have made it. I attributed it to >having a kid who didn’t sleep much… then I attributed it to having 2, >3, then 4 kids. But in all these years I never regained my energy. Now >I know why.

I’m sure that my apnea’d been affecting me for many years, but it was only around ten years ago that it really got to me, I lost the ability to focus on things and to reason, not a good thing for an engineer. I just figured that I was getting old, then I went on CPAP and magically became young again. It came as a very pleasant surprise. >> I don’t know of any statistics on labor onset versus time of day, but >> your theory sure sounds plausible. If the statistics are correct, then >> maybe women who go into labor during the daytime should be evaluated >> for a sleep disorder? >Hmmm, any grad students around here looking for a thesis topic?

If so, I hope that they’ll let us in on the results. Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tom Devlin wrote: > Judy Simon wrote: > >Too bad I didn’t know anything about sleep disorders 23 years ago when > >my first son was born, because that’s when I first began feeling > >pathologically tired If I didn’t have my mother to help me > >back then I don’t know how I would have made it. I attributed it to > >having a kid who didn’t sleep much… then I attributed it to having 2, > >3, then 4 kids. But in all these years I never regained my energy. Now > >I know why. > I’m sure that my apnea’d been affecting me for many years, but it was > only around ten years ago that it really got to me, I lost the ability > to focus on things and to reason, not a good thing for an engineer. I > just figured that I was getting old, then I went on CPAP and magically > became young again. It came as a very pleasant surprise.

It must have been difficult then, before there was a lot of info or awareness about sleep apnea. Have you seen alot of changes in diagnostic criteria and treatment since you were first diagnosed? Was it hard to get used to the equipment (more primitive than today’s, I’m sure)? I was having a hard time concentrating, too. I was a statistician and epidemiologist in medical research; I cut back to teaching part-time in a med school after my kids were born, but I was always exhausted and focusing on the material was so damn hard. I finally gave it up and got a social work degree- it was easier because it didn’t require as much focus; numbers and research papers were putting me to sleep but fortunately, people and their problems didn’t. And, sorry to say, but in social work I didn’t have to worry about reading the literature because most of it was worthless anyway (that’s what happens when someone trained in the hard sciences switches to a field like social work). In the end I’m glad I switched careers- my newfound post CPAP energy is going to very good use. Judy

Response:

I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big tongue and severe allergies which we are unable to control. I am trying to sort out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. I have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am still not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t use the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. Thanks for any ideas and help.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Tom Devlin wrote: > Judy Simon wrote: > >> They’re very strongly associated with REM sleep. One of Dr. Dement’s > >> colleagues said that he didn’t know where dreams came from, but he > >> thought that the erect penis was acting as the antenna to receive > >> them. > >so *that’s* why I haven’t been dreaming > It happens to women too, it’s just not as obvious. > http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/basics/questions101/chapter3.htm#Ch3-q23 > Tom

Hmm, and to think I was coming here to learn about sleep apnea Actually, I wonder if uterine contractions occurring during REM sleep are associated with a higher-than-expected % of women going into labor during the night. Judy

Response:

keh…@aol.com (KEH724) wrote: >>if you do not awaken during a dream, >>or shortly thereafter, you won’t remember the dream. >So does it follow that if you have sleep apnea and wake many times a night, >you’re more likely to remember your dreams?

To a point. Some of us went so long without deep sleep that we’d quit dreaming, the "REM rebound" period, when the dreams came flooding back, often came as a shock. >I usually remember 2-3 dreams a >night. I had a really weird dream in the sleep lab even though I only had 8 >minutes of REM sleep. Maybe I’m waking up often during REM sleep?

Everybody’s different, but REM usually happens during deep sleep, right at the point that the apnea kicks in. Tom

Response:

Judy Simon wrote: >> They’re very strongly associated with REM sleep. One of Dr. Dement’s >> colleagues said that he didn’t know where dreams came from, but he >> thought that the erect penis was acting as the antenna to receive >> them. >so *that’s* why I haven’t been dreaming

It happens to women too, it’s just not as obvious. http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/basics/questions101/chapter3.htm#Ch3-q23 Tom

Response:

"Spike" wrote: > If you know where I can find some of that info I’d appreciate you >posting the site on here.

A Google search using Apnea Erectile Dysfunction turned up any number of hits, these look pretty good. http://www.medicalinfo.com/sleep_disorders.htm http://healingwell.subportal.com/health/Diseases_and_Conditions/Sleep… >All of these problems really get me down and it is hard enough >having a sleep problem, but pile on the ED and also Alopecia and sometimes I >feel pretty worthless.

Once again, talk to your doctor about re-titration, it might help with both the ED and the depression. >I know we all have a problems.

But knowing that you’re not alone can sure help a lot. Stick around, you’re among friends. Tom

Response:

Tom – If you know where I can find some of that info I’d appreciate you posting the site on here. (I don’t use my real e-mail, just embarrassed I guess). All of these problems really get me down and it is hard enough having a sleep problem, but pile on the ED and also Alopecia and sometimes I feel pretty worthless. I know we all have a problems. I just like to get one thing back on track and I’d feel like I was making progress. I am also in worse shape now than when I started treatment for these things. Thanks again for the info and please let me know if you know of anymore. "Tom Devlin" wrote in message

news:ekpjhu44ti5ve37lqkopu631ktcggcfvrl@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Spike" wrote: > >As above Nocturnal Erections, erections that happen during sleep > >involuntarily. Most peopel feel that they are caused for good blood flow. > >I would assume that if you are not sleeping deeply enough that it would > >affect the NE’s. > They’re very strongly associated with REM sleep. One of Dr. Dement’s > colleagues said that he didn’t know where dreams came from, but he > thought that the erect penis was acting as the antenna to receive > them. > > I also question if you don’t sleep well can that cause ED? > Sure can. The connection’s been discussed here several times, and I > know that I’ve read reports on the web. > >Seems like the docs do not want to cross over into other areas to see if > >there is a base cause for all of a persons health problems. > When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. > Tom

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Judy Simon wrote: > Tom Devlin wrote: > > "Spike" wrote: > > >As above Nocturnal Erections, erections that happen during sleep > > >involuntarily. Most peopel feel that they are caused for good blood flow. > > >I would assume that if you are not sleeping deeply enough that it would > > >affect the NE’s. > > They’re very strongly associated with REM sleep. One of Dr. Dement’s > > colleagues said that he didn’t know where dreams came from, but he > > thought that the erect penis was acting as the antenna to receive > > them. > so *that’s* why I haven’t been dreaming

I just read Tom’s post to my wife, and she reponded, "Well, how do women have dreams?" I just reminded her of the feminine body part equivalent. Her response, "Oh yah."

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote: > "Spike" wrote: > >As above Nocturnal Erections, erections that happen during sleep > >involuntarily. Most peopel feel that they are caused for good blood flow. > >I would assume that if you are not sleeping deeply enough that it would > >affect the NE’s. > They’re very strongly associated with REM sleep. One of Dr. Dement’s > colleagues said that he didn’t know where dreams came from, but he > thought that the erect penis was acting as the antenna to receive > them.

so *that’s* why I haven’t been dreaming

Response:

NormC wrote: >if you do not awaken during a dream, >or shortly thereafter, you won’t remember the dream.

So does it follow that if you have sleep apnea and wake many times a night, you’re more likely to remember your dreams? I usually remember 2-3 dreams a night. I had a really weird dream in the sleep lab even though I only had 8 minutes of REM sleep. Maybe I’m waking up often during REM sleep? Kathy

Response:

KEH724 wrote: > NormC wrote: > >if you do not awaken during a dream, > >or shortly thereafter, you won’t remember the dream. > So does it follow that if you have sleep apnea and wake many times a night, > you’re more likely to remember your dreams? I usually remember 2-3 dreams a > night. I had a really weird dream in the sleep lab even though I only had 8 > minutes of REM sleep. Maybe I’m waking up often during REM sleep? > Kathy

You got it! That is, indeed, my opinion. I, personally, am ecsatic if I feel great each day and DO NOT remember any dreams. To me that means I got quality sleep the night before. Looking for other opinions here (as always), from others.

Response:

As above Nocturnal Erections, erections that happen during sleep involuntarily. Most peopel feel that they are caused for good blood flow. I would assume that if you are not sleeping deeply enough that it would affect the NE’s. I also question if you don’t sleep well can that cause ED? Seems like the docs do not want to cross over into other areas to see if there is a base cause for all of a persons health problems. They just try to treat the symptoms in their own field. Anyway that is my feelings. I had to discover and reasearch sleep apnea, I researched TRT for my low Testosterone and on and on. Where are the good docs who put out some effort? "Dominick" wrote in message

news:3D190C35.4B9C2DEC@infi.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Spike, > What’s NE? > Yours Truly, > Dominick

Response:

"Spike" wrote: >As above Nocturnal Erections, erections that happen during sleep >involuntarily. Most peopel feel that they are caused for good blood flow. >I would assume that if you are not sleeping deeply enough that it would >affect the NE’s.

They’re very strongly associated with REM sleep. One of Dr. Dement’s colleagues said that he didn’t know where dreams came from, but he thought that the erect penis was acting as the antenna to receive them. > I also question if you don’t sleep well can that cause ED?

Sure can. The connection’s been discussed here several times, and I know that I’ve read reports on the web. >Seems like the docs do not want to cross over into other areas to see if >there is a base cause for all of a persons health problems.

When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Tom

Response:

Spike, What’s NE? Yours Truly, Dominick

Response:

Have you researched the side-effects of whatever meds you are taking, regarding NE and ED? Aren’t they both, essentially, the same thing? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Spike wrote: > I guess I should have said more but I didn’t want to make it too long. Fat > tongue, no tonsils, suffered from allergies for years, 50 lbs. overweight, > had nasal sonaplasty, (sp) this January it didn’t help. They said > restrictive is that the air is restricted but not totally blocked off as > obstructive. But yet ENT sent me in for sinus imagining, showed clear > sinuses. ENT says I need to go on allergy shots but the results could be a > year or more away. Just don’t understand why I don’t remember dreaming, > when I did just after the cpap pressure was adjusted. NEs are Nocturnal > Erections that most males have every night while asleep, I also suffer from > ED without any apparent explanation. Urologists just found some mild > leakage and said here is some Viagra. Seems like no one really wants to > find the base cause for the problems. I’m almost sure that they are all > tied together. Maybe like be tired. Thanks for any ideas and listening. > "Lori&Mike" wrote in message > news:uhhb2iarqosqce@corp.supernews.com… > > "restrictive apnea" Interesting term since your air is restricted by some > blockage but I > > think you meant obstructive apnea (obstructive, central, mixed). Blockage > sites can include > > nasal/sinus congestion, base of tongue,adenoids/tonsils, even lingual > tonsils which are on > > the side and back portion of tongue, throat tissue, palate, etc. You HAVE > to get the > > allergies under control. Nasal congestion can be a MAJOR cause of apnea > (don’t expect your > > doc to know this). > > Are you almost psychotic, if not you are dreaming, you just don’t remember > the dreams. Again > > for emphasis, get the nasal blockage/allergies under control. Maybe have > doc order a sinus > > CTScan, could be inferior turbinates have swollen and are blocking air. > Once you make sure > > your nose is clear CPAP will work much better. > > Is NE nocturnal emissions? Ah, to be young again ) Mike > > "Spike" wrote in message > > news:mf1S8.394267$%y.29121215@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… > > > I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big > tongue > > > and severe allergies which we are unable to control. I am trying to > sort > > > out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with > > > humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. > I > > > have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am > still > > > not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t > use > > > the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas > about > > > this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure > > > adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. > Thanks > > > for any ideas and help.

Response:

"Spike" wrote: >I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big tongue >and severe allergies which we are unable to control. I am trying to sort >out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with >humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. I >have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am still >not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t use >the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas about >this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure >adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. Thanks >for any ideas and help.

Many people never remember their dreams unless they’re awakened during one. It’s not at all unusual for people new to CPAP to have vivid, and sometimes disturbing dreams, but this often goes away after a short time. The NE’s are a pretty good sign that you’re getting into REM, but you might want to consider a re-titration, you’re coming up on your one year anniversary. Tom

Response:

I guess I should have said more but I didn’t want to make it too long. Fat tongue, no tonsils, suffered from allergies for years, 50 lbs. overweight, had nasal sonaplasty, (sp) this January it didn’t help. They said restrictive is that the air is restricted but not totally blocked off as obstructive. But yet ENT sent me in for sinus imagining, showed clear sinuses. ENT says I need to go on allergy shots but the results could be a year or more away. Just don’t understand why I don’t remember dreaming, when I did just after the cpap pressure was adjusted. NEs are Nocturnal Erections that most males have every night while asleep, I also suffer from ED without any apparent explanation. Urologists just found some mild leakage and said here is some Viagra. Seems like no one really wants to find the base cause for the problems. I’m almost sure that they are all tied together. Maybe like be tired. Thanks for any ideas and listening. "Lori&Mike" wrote in message

news:uhhb2iarqosqce@corp.supernews.com… > "restrictive apnea" Interesting term since your air is restricted by some blockage but I > think you meant obstructive apnea (obstructive, central, mixed). Blockage sites can include > nasal/sinus congestion, base of tongue,adenoids/tonsils, even lingual

tonsils which are on – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the side and back portion of tongue, throat tissue, palate, etc. You HAVE to get the > allergies under control. Nasal congestion can be a MAJOR cause of apnea (don’t expect your > doc to know this). > Are you almost psychotic, if not you are dreaming, you just don’t remember the dreams. Again > for emphasis, get the nasal blockage/allergies under control. Maybe have doc order a sinus > CTScan, could be inferior turbinates have swollen and are blocking air. Once you make sure > your nose is clear CPAP will work much better. > Is NE nocturnal emissions? Ah, to be young again ) Mike > "Spike" wrote in message > news:mf1S8.394267$%y.29121215@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… > > I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big tongue > > and severe allergies which we are unable to control. I am trying to sort > > out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with > > humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. I > > have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am still > > not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t use > > the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas about > > this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure > > adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. Thanks > > for any ideas and help.

Response:

Spike wrote: > I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big tongue > and severe allergies which we are unable to control. I am trying to sort > out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with > humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. I > have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am still > not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t use > the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas about > this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure > adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. Thanks > for any ideas and help.

You may be dreaming up a storm, but if you do not awaken during a dream, or shortly thereafter, you won’t remember the dream. So, if you don’t remember dreaming, it doesn’t mean you weren’t. It just means you don’t recall.

Response:

"restrictive apnea" Interesting term since your air is restricted by some blockage but I think you meant obstructive apnea (obstructive, central, mixed). Blockage sites can include nasal/sinus congestion, base of tongue,adenoids/tonsils, even lingual tonsils which are on the side and back portion of tongue, throat tissue, palate, etc. You HAVE to get the allergies under control. Nasal congestion can be a MAJOR cause of apnea (don’t expect your doc to know this). Are you almost psychotic, if not you are dreaming, you just don’t remember the dreams. Again for emphasis, get the nasal blockage/allergies under control. Maybe have doc order a sinus CTScan, could be inferior turbinates have swollen and are blocking air. Once you make sure your nose is clear CPAP will work much better. Is NE nocturnal emissions? Ah, to be young again ) Mike "Spike" wrote in message

news:mf1S8.394267$%y.29121215@bin4.nnrp.aus1.giganews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big tongue > and severe allergies which we are unable to control. I am trying to sort > out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with > humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. I > have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am still > not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t use > the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas about > this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure > adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. Thanks > for any ideas and help.

Response:

> I am still having problems. Have restrictive apnea but have a big tongue > and severe allergies which we are unable to control.

do you mean Obstructive apnea? I’ve never heard of apnea referred to as "restrictive" > I am trying to sort > out why I still feel bad, allergies or sleep. Oh I am on cpap with > humidifier. I have had only one very short dream since August of 2001. I > have NEs I say maybe twice a week. Does this possibly mean that I am still > not getting into a deep sleep? I feel a little better than when I don’t use > the cpap. But still a long ways to go. Does anyone have any ideas about > this? Those dreams last August came after a sleep study and pressure > adjustment but stopped abruptly three days later, never to return. Thanks > for any ideas and help.

it could just mean that you’re not waking up in the middle of a dream…..rather than you’re not dreaming. what’s NE? — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

Have to pick my CPAP machine…

admin — Thu, 20 Jun 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Art Santella wrote: >I received a call from the equipment supplier about an hour after I >got home from the hospital. The only problem is that they wanted me >to go to their main outlet to get the equipment. (the doctor said they >would come to the house.) Their main office is a two hour drive from >my home. I said "forget it", and they said a technician would contact >me, for a home appointment.

You might get a better selection by going to the office, but I doubt that you’ll need it. > I was told that I would be able to pick >from about 20 machines. My question is when the tech comes to my >home do they have the units in the van or do you have to pick your >unit out of a catalog, have it set and then sent to you?

I can’t believe they’d bring all 20 out, there isn’t much point. Most of us don’t have a choice of blowers, we take whatever our DME and insurance companies have agreed on, it usually works out. If you do have that big a selection then ask them to email the list to you, repost it here and we’ll be happy to tell you which ones we’d take. >I had also tried about 6 masks on at my first visit to the hospital >and was not crazy about the nasal pillow setup.(I have a shaved head, >and the hose setup annoyed me.) I found a nose mask that seemed >comfortable even when sleeping on my side. I never even noticed it >being on during my titration test.

You can’t ask for a better recommendation than that, call the sleep lab and ask which model and size you used, then make sure that the tech brings one along. Tom

Response:

DEMAND MAXIMUM CO2 WASHOUT

Response:

"I found a nose mask that seemed comfortable even when sleeping on my side. I never even noticed it being on during my titration test." Sounds like you found a winner, go for it. We all have preferences whether nasal pillows, nose mask or full mask. For some folks it has taken forever to find the right match – emotional as well as physical match. With a nose mask or nasal pillows, one potential problem to be aware of is mouth breathing. While I bought a chin strap when I picked up my machine, quite a few have reported very good results with a sweat head band – $5 – $10 compared to $20-$40 for an ‘official’ chin strap. Do post the name of the mask and the good/bad features. Will help others who are debating what to buy. And don’t forget to suspend your hose.

Response:

Art Santella wrote: >I just got back from the sleep center at the hospital with my >titration results. The doctor said that a setting of 13 seemed to >completely get rid of my apnea etc. >I am expecting a call from the supplier of the equipment and have a >choice of about 20 machines. I was thinking along the lines of the >Rem star Pro.

The Remstar Pro’s been well received here, the only problem seems to be that the add-on humidifier can’t be run from any of the common DC to AC converters. It’s only a concern if you want uninterruptable operation, the blower will run from 12VDC, but I think it’s awfully disappointing that Respironics overlooked this. Tom

Response:

Tal wrote: > > I am expecting a call from the supplier of the equipment and have a > > choice of about 20 machines. I was thinking along the lines of the > > Rem star Pro. > the selection of mask is generally much more important than the cpap machine > itself…..most popular masks here seem to be the Ultra Mirage and for those > that dont’ like over-the-nose masks, the breeze nasal pillows seem quite > popular……personally, i love my fisher & paykel Aclaim mask. > If it’s at all possible try on several masks for yourself to see which would > be most appropriate for you

Do you sleep on your side? If so, you might be better off with the nasal pillow setup as it has fewer problems when sleeping on your side as it is less likely to hit the pillow and leak. > Try and get a heated humidifier too

Definitely get a heated humidifer, and a tube of Ayer Saline Gel. Also buy or sew an insulated cover for the hose to reduce condensation in the hose and water up your nose. A not pleasant experience. Ross Bernheim As they say, "Up your nose with a rubber hose!"

Response:

On Thu, 20 Jun 2002 11:37:25 -0400, Art Santella wrote: >I just got back from the sleep center at the hospital with my >titration results. The doctor said that a setting of 13 seemed to >completely get rid of my apnea etc. >I am expecting a call from the supplier of the equipment and have a >choice of about 20 machines. I was thinking along the lines of the >Rem star Pro. >Any thoughts would be appreciated. >Art S

I received a call from the equipment supplier about an hour after I got home from the hospital. The only problem is that they wanted me to go to their main outlet to get the equipment. (the doctor said they would come to the house.) Their main office is a two hour drive from my home. I said "forget it", and they said a technician would contact me, for a home appointment. I was told that I would be able to pick from about 20 machines. My question is when the tech comes to my home do they have the units in the van or do you have to pick your unit out of a catalog, have it set and then sent to you? I had also tried about 6 masks on at my first visit to the hospital and was not crazy about the nasal pillow setup.(I have a shaved head, and the hose setup annoyed me.) I found a nose mask that seemed comfortable even when sleeping on my side. I never even noticed it being on during my titration test. I am supposed to return to the hospital after a month on the machine, and tell the doctor if I have any problems. I am hoping to get set up ASAP. I will let the group know if I run into any problems and need help. Thanks so far for all the info. Art S.

Response:

> Do you sleep on your side? If so, you might be better off with the nasal > pillow setup as it has fewer problems when sleeping on your side as it > is less likely to hit the pillow and leak.

Depends on the mask… like i’ve said – and someone else (possibly two others?) the Aclaim is great for side sleepers, i toss and turn and spend most of the night on one side or the other WITH my face on the pillow…..never get leaks…think it’s cause of the "glider" that allows the mask/headgear to stay in place when you move — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

> I am expecting a call from the supplier of the equipment and have a > choice of about 20 machines. I was thinking along the lines of the > Rem star Pro.

the selection of mask is generally much more important than the cpap machine itself…..most popular masks here seem to be the Ultra Mirage and for those that dont’ like over-the-nose masks, the breeze nasal pillows seem quite popular……personally, i love my fisher & paykel Aclaim mask. If it’s at all possible try on several masks for yourself to see which would be most appropriate for you Try and get a heated humidifier too — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

I just got back from the sleep center at the hospital with my titration results. The doctor said that a setting of 13 seemed to completely get rid of my apnea etc. I am expecting a call from the supplier of the equipment and have a choice of about 20 machines. I was thinking along the lines of the Rem star Pro. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Art S

Response:

Remeron and nocturnal erections.

admin — Sat, 15 Jun 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

IMO, my nocturnal erections (NEs) are the most important erections that I can have!….Sure sexual erections are fun but healthy NEs contribute to my quality/quantity of my sexual erections. Joe D is right….NEs occur during rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, when we are the most relaxed and we may dream (even if we don’t remember the dreams). http://www.health.harvard.edu/medline/Men/N0200b.html http://webmd.lycos.com/content/article/1687.50697 I have three risk factors for sleep disorder(s) age (64 yo), HIV+ and Wellbutrin. I generally did pretty well with Tylenol’s Simply Sleep before bed and perhaps supplementation few hours later with Ativan or Ambien. For the past couple of months I’ve added Valerian Root Extract to my regimen….this is plant from which Valium is derived. Thus far I’ve evaluated two brands of Valerian Root (VR).. Nature’s Way ~$10.50/90 capsules…purchased at upscale trendy, organic, health foods store here in Houston Nature’s Resources ~$5.00/100 capsules My routine….Tylenol sleep aid…then at first piss call ~1.5 – 3 hrs later I take three VR capsules. I’ve always been the type that I’m awake when my eyelids open…so pre VR I was usually getting up 4:30 – 5:00. Now taking VR it’s not unusual for me to sleep to 6:00 – 7:00 AM. I’m much more aware of dreaming and very aware of my NEs that begin at 4:00 AM ish….it’s like I’m a text book case for NEs at this hour. http://www.sleepmedservices.com/101questions/sex.html From the above site…. "We have most of our REM sleep in the early morning, usually between 4 – 7 AM. Therefore, each morning we are very likely to awaken directly from REM sleep or, at the very least, soon after a long REM period has ended. Thus, men are very likely to awaken in the morning with a REM sleep-related erection." Four Brands of VR that I’ve bought From Whole Foods Mg/capsule From Walgreen’s Nature’s Resources Just my experiences…. OR eon 64 yo HIV+ GayMan

Response:

Since a long time I did not have nocturnal erections anymore,maybe because of the antidepressants I took.But even when I did not take antidepressants I had no nocturnal erections.Some time ago I went to my doctor because I had sleeping problems.I started to take 15 mg Remeron(which is also an antidepressant but at low dosage a good sleeping aid) and immediately,from the first night on, every time I awake,during the night or in the morning I have a very strong erection which lasts sometimes 15 minutes or even longer.Is there someone who has the same experience with Remeron?On the other hand I must admit that I still have ED and have to use Viagra.So the Remeron does not seem to help for ED.Am I right if I conclude that my ED is psychologically?

Response:

I use Remeron. I can’t say that it helped or hurt ED one way or the other. I also am not sure it helps my depression that much either, however it does seem to help my sleep which in turn no doubt prevents some depression. I took Zoloft and Celexia before starting the Remeron and I can say definately they were the beginning of my ED and caused Anorgasmia. I believe I can truthfully say I did not have one single orgasm while on the stuff. Thus in the long run my mental health was damaged further by the idea that my sex life was gone. I would tell any male unless he were suicidal and despirate to leave selective serotonan reuptake inhibitors alone. They are almost guarenteed to destroy you sex life. This is just my observation and experience. I am sure there is somebody who will argue with something here. I don’t debate but I will discuss my experiences with ED related problems if you like. This group seems replete with trolls who will jump on something in every post. Contact me by email if you want to discuss further.

Response:

Nocturnal erections are affected by REM sleep and your hormone status, esp free testosterone level. If for some reason you don’t get much REM sleep (say due to insomnia) this might gradually cause ED. Remeron is sedating and helps you sleep, so maybe that helped. Did you ever take SSRIs? Remeron blocks the 5ht2 and 5ht3 serotonin receptors thought implicated in SSRI-induced sexual problems. Maybe this somehow gives benenfit even after you’ve discontinued SSRIs but have residual sexual problems. There are several research papers that mention the pro-sexual affects of Remeron (Mirtazapine). Below are some. You should also have your hormone levels tested, including free testosterone, estradiol, thyroid, and prolactin. — Joe D. Relief of SSRI-induced sexual dysfunction with mirtazapine treatment. Farah A. J Clin Psychiatry. 1999 Apr;60(4):260-261

Response:

Dreams = Stage 4 ??

admin — Tue, 28 May 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Judy Simon wrote: >If you have little or no stage 3 and 4 sleep in the sleep lab, does that >imply you have none at home too? Or do you sleep differently at the lab >than you do at home?

I’m sure that I sleep more soundly at home than in the sleep lab, I assume that’s true of most folks to some degree. I slept about my usual number of hours at my last titration, but didn’t wake up feeling nearly as good as I would have at home. Tom

Response:

Eric, I think we can dream in all stages but not very vivid in stages 1 and 2. Also the doctors, several who are permanent staff say deep sleep is not important and teach this to other doctors. I find this nonsenses because then a person would only get stages 1 and 2 and rem. Cpap knocked out my deep sleep as proven by my sleep studies and it was harder to keep weight off and now it finally came back. I am taking a drug for my co2 retention which I am pretty sure is knocking out my deep sleep as I am feeling more tired and sleepy and gaining weight though I exercise each day. There was a long term study that showed that when men grow older and lose more deep sleep they lose the growth hormone and lose lean muscle mass and gain weight. I am going off of the drug I am on since it is not working as I am feeling worse the longer I am on it. I still have my numerous changes in stages of sleep which do not allow me to wake up refreshed. Good to see you are still around as you were here when I came almost 4 years ago. "eric pearson" wrote in message

news:b5b8fuo23u7ejrmmgpres7itq438jl4btn@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dreams are in REM, > not the resorative ‘Delta’ Stage 3 and 4 sleep. > With normal sleep architecture, REM follows Delta. > With apnea, you can have REM without Delta. > Insufficient Delta is very very bad. > regards, > eric pearson > db2e…@nospammindspring.com > On 28 May 2002 04:58:00 -0700, amw…@aol.com (Andy Weiss) wrote: > >I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give > >you guys a crack at it first. > >Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. > >Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too > >pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. > >Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG > >ones. I remembered them well the next morning. > >Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages > >of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am > >dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, > >and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs > >for CPAP have diminished? > >Ideas? Opinions? Lunch orders? > >Andy Weiss

Response:

eric pearson wrote: >Can you cite references for ‘here’s a residual effect from using the >CPAP and >>your apnea will actually be somewhat diminished if you try to sleep >>without CPAP’?

I think it’s known as the Splinting Effect. Some people’s airways remain more open for a period of time after stopping CPAP, it’s the reason some sleep labs want you to stop using the machine for a few days before a retest. Tom – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Goes counter to what my sleep doc told me. >regards, >eric pearson >db2e…@nospammindspring.com >On Tue, 28 May 2002 09:07:43 -0400, Carol Pettit > wrote: >>Andy Weiss wrote: >>> I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give >>> you guys a crack at it first. >>> Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. >>> Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too >>> pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. >>> Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG >>> ones. I remembered them well the next morning. >>> Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages >>> of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am >>> dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, >>> and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs >>> for CPAP have diminished? >>If you’re sleeping better without CPAP for a day or two at a time, it’s >>a pretty sure sign that CPAP is WORKING for you, from what I >>understand. See…there’s a residual effect from using the CPAP and >>your apnea will actually be somewhat diminished if you try to sleep >>without CPAP, but no, it does NOT mean that your NEED for CPAP has >>diminished. Sorry. >>Carol P.

Response:

eric pearson wrote: > Carol, > Can you cite references for ‘here’s a residual effect from using the > CPAP and > >your apnea will actually be somewhat diminished if you try to sleep > >without CPAP’? > Goes counter to what my sleep doc told me.

Sorry, can’t really cite a reference…it’s one of those things that I heard about here…should have mentioned that…intended to, but didn’t. Carol P.

Response:

If you have little or no stage 3 and 4 sleep in the sleep lab, does that imply you have none at home too? Or do you sleep differently at the lab than you do at home? Judy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -eric pearson wrote: > Dreams are in REM, > not the resorative ‘Delta’ Stage 3 and 4 sleep. > With normal sleep architecture, REM follows Delta. > With apnea, you can have REM without Delta. > Insufficient Delta is very very bad. > regards, > eric pearson > db2e…@nospammindspring.com > On 28 May 2002 04:58:00 -0700, amw…@aol.com (Andy Weiss) wrote: > >I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give > >you guys a crack at it first. > >Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. > >Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too > >pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. > >Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG > >ones. I remembered them well the next morning. > >Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages > >of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am > >dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, > >and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs > >for CPAP have diminished? > >Ideas? Opinions? Lunch orders? > >Andy Weiss

Response:

Carol, Can you cite references for ‘here’s a residual effect from using the CPAP and >your apnea will actually be somewhat diminished if you try to sleep >without CPAP’?

Goes counter to what my sleep doc told me. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On Tue, 28 May 2002 09:07:43 -0400, Carol Pettit – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: >Andy Weiss wrote: >> I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give >> you guys a crack at it first. >> Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. >> Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too >> pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. >> Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG >> ones. I remembered them well the next morning. >> Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages >> of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am >> dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, >> and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs >> for CPAP have diminished? >If you’re sleeping better without CPAP for a day or two at a time, it’s >a pretty sure sign that CPAP is WORKING for you, from what I >understand. See…there’s a residual effect from using the CPAP and >your apnea will actually be somewhat diminished if you try to sleep >without CPAP, but no, it does NOT mean that your NEED for CPAP has >diminished. Sorry. >Carol P.

Response:

Dreams are in REM, not the resorative ‘Delta’ Stage 3 and 4 sleep. With normal sleep architecture, REM follows Delta. With apnea, you can have REM without Delta. Insufficient Delta is very very bad. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On 28 May 2002 04:58:00 -0700, amw…@aol.com (Andy Weiss) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give >you guys a crack at it first. >Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. >Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too >pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. >Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG >ones. I remembered them well the next morning. >Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages >of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am >dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, >and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs >for CPAP have diminished? >Ideas? Opinions? Lunch orders? >Andy Weiss

Response:

amw…@aol.com (Andy Weiss) wrote: >Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. >Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too >pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. >Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG >ones. I remembered them well the next morning.

Probably because your apneas were waking you up during them. >Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages >of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am >dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, >and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs >for CPAP have diminished?

You’re getting, however briefly, into deeper sleep, but you’re getting yanked right back out of it again. Also remember the Splinting Effect, that lets a few people skip CPAP for a night or two with no ill effects, your second consecutive night without CPAP would probably have brought back your pre-treatment daytime symptoms. I’m sorry, but I really don’t see any good news here. Tom

Response:

On 28 May 2002 04:58:00 -0700, amw…@aol.com (Andy Weiss) wrote: >Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. >Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too >pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. >then maybe my needs for CPAP have diminished? >Ideas? Opinions? Lunch orders?

There have been some studies that indicate that the effect of CPAP will coast through for a day or two…. and that if they want to measure the RDI you’d have without CPAP, they have to have you sleep two or three nights without. — Visit Charlie’s Sneaker Pages: http://sneakers.pair.com/

Response:

You technically can dream in all stages of sleep. Deep sleep is stage 3 and 4. And you can get them with sleep apnea. What I did not get was REM until I used cpap. You know if the cpap is working if you feel better. But you MUST understand it does take time to get use to the machine. Fight it all you want. Use it or don’t it, it is your health. It took me a few months until really get use to cpap, once you do you don’t want to go to sleep without it. the question is what is bothering you? The mask, the breeze is one of the better masks that does not feel so contraining. Do I sound a little mean, maybe. I used cpap for 2 years and got very use to it but it never helped me but we found out that it knocked out my deep sleep but that might not be the problem Not until my 3rd sleep study we found I was retaining co2. Had major surgeries to correct sleep apnea and picked up another sleep disorder, got my deep sleep back but with alpha intrusions. Now I found out I have early stages of emphysema and some people have co2 retention which is what might be disturbing my sleep all along. So I was not lucky enough to be able to use the machine to help me and I had to use surgery to correct the sleep apnea. A special type of cpap called bipap is sometimes used to treat co2 retention but since the machines knock out my deep sleep I don’t have that option so I am trying other methods for it without success. Stick with the machine, you will get use to it if you look at it as something to help you feel better which it will do. Sorry but not anything I can say to help you but hang in there. "Andy Weiss" wrote in message

news:6b0f7239.0205280358.45dd2f14@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give > you guys a crack at it first. > Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. > Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too > pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. > Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG > ones. I remembered them well the next morning. > Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages > of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am > dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, > and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs > for CPAP have diminished? > Ideas? Opinions? Lunch orders? > Andy Weiss

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Andy Weiss wrote: > I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give > you guys a crack at it first. > Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. > Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too > pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. > Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG > ones. I remembered them well the next morning. > Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages > of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am > dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, > and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs > for CPAP have diminished?

If you’re sleeping better without CPAP for a day or two at a time, it’s a pretty sure sign that CPAP is WORKING for you, from what I understand. See…there’s a residual effect from using the CPAP and your apnea will actually be somewhat diminished if you try to sleep without CPAP, but no, it does NOT mean that your NEED for CPAP has diminished. Sorry. Carol P.

Response:

I know this is something I could just look up. But I thought I’d give you guys a crack at it first. Two nights this week, I actually fell asleep before I put my CPAP on. Don’t ask how, but it happened. Ok, I’ll come clean, I was just too pi**ed off to put the darn thing on to begin with. Those two nights, I am certain I had dreams. Several of them. LONG ones. I remembered them well the next morning. Does the presence of dreams mean that I am reaching the proper stages of sleep necessary for "healthy sleep" ?? If so, that is, if I am dreaming these extended dreams, reaching the proper level of sleep, and certain of that fact … and without CPAP … then maybe my needs for CPAP have diminished? Ideas? Opinions? Lunch orders? Andy Weiss

Response:

Anyone Mild Sleep Apnea/CPAP story?

admin — Wed, 13 Dec 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Where we last left off, I called my nurse practitioner who thoroughly explained that I have mild sleep apnea. Something like 16events per hour, but that I have an underlying sleep disorder where I get reduced REM and almost no deep sleep which is probably why I feel tired all the time. I’m slated for March for a CPAP sleep study but probably cannot make it because my husband has been relocated out of state and we will probably be moved by then. It would be really helpful if someone here with mild sleep apnea could tell me if they’ve benefitted, and how, from CPAP?

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article <20001213201734.21729.00001…@ng-fl1.aol.com> on 14 Dec 2000 01:17:34 GMT, where truelo…@aol.com said: >Where we last left off, I called my nurse practitioner who thoroughly explained >that I have mild sleep apnea. Something like 16events per hour, but that I have >an underlying sleep disorder where I get reduced REM and almost no deep sleep >which is probably why I feel tired all the time. >I’m slated for March for a CPAP sleep study but probably cannot make it because >my husband has been relocated out of state and we will probably be moved by >then. >It would be really helpful if someone here with mild sleep apnea could tell me >if they’ve benefitted, and how, from CPAP?

Many people told you a few weeks ago how they benefitted from CPAP/BiPAP. Look in the archives. -dave

Response:

ah the white lotus returnes "TrueLotus" wrote in message

news:20001213201734.21729.00001542@ng-fl1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Where we last left off, I called my nurse practitioner who thoroughly explained > that I have mild sleep apnea. Something like 16events per hour, but that I have > an underlying sleep disorder where I get reduced REM and almost no deep sleep > which is probably why I feel tired all the time. > I’m slated for March for a CPAP sleep study but probably cannot make it because > my husband has been relocated out of state and we will probably be moved by > then. > It would be really helpful if someone here with mild sleep apnea could tell me > if they’ve benefitted, and how, from CPAP?

Response:

http://www.dds.nl/~krantb/5196/trolls.html Then there are real winners who have a long standing history of harassment and trolling (usually nominated for KOTM (Kook Of The Month) like Boursey, Grubor (multiple accounts / personalities), (Archimedes Plutonium) or White Lotus (as profiled in the magazine CYBERSANGHA). They usually have a World Wide Web page devoted to them somewhere. WL (for example) has multiple accounts like Ari Lindemann, Dave Lindemann, Terry Fifer, SABSA, te…@eskimo.com, tlo…@eskimo.com, truelo…@seanet.com, gurubus…@seanet.com, dklinde…@accessone.com, a…@speakeasy.org), fre…@speakeasy.org, lotusdha…@aol.com, gurubu…@aol.com, a…@halcyon.com, jyo…@ix.netcom.com, jjo…@ix.netcom.com, jyto…@ix.netcom.com, ka…@asura.com, forg…@forgery.com, to…@kathy.com, kastyas…@aol.com, wackoka…@aol.com, sophiae…@aol.com, gurubus…@aol.com, sop…@jerk.com), WL’s pattern seems to be to harass entire NGs as well as individuals. Her troll eruptions tend to take place at the height of controversies. Her latest trolls are apparently the result both of Kathy’s making public WL’s harassing email, and also of WL’s being nominated for KotM. "TrueLotus" wrote in message

Response:

"Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote: > >It would be really helpful if someone here with mild sleep apnea could tell me > >if they’ve benefitted, and how, from CPAP? > Many people told you a few weeks ago how they benefitted from CPAP/BiPAP. Look in > the archives.

Hey Dave, I’m beginning to think that this is Domenic (him – d…@infi.net), or someone similar. I’m beginning to expect rehash of subjects, and additional questions such as "does alcohol make this worse?" or "does this drug make this worse or better?" I’m not putting him in the kill file, just skimming the message and not bothering with reply. — Magesteff - "Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction."-Albert Einstein ——————————————————– Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II,

night terrors?

admin — Sat, 06 May 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Subject: Re: I can’t sleep!! Help me! From: XF-11 Dan.G.How…@worldnet.att.net Make sure your blood sugar levels are stable throughout the day and night Do not eat protein before bed (meat, fish, etc.) A nighttime snack like oatmeal and a glass of milk can be helpful. Subject: Re: night terrors? From: XF-11 Dan.G.How…@worldnet.att.net Maybe your blood sugar level is getting too low? Subject: Re: How do you get a good night sleep? From: XF-11 Dan.G.How…@worldnet.att.net Make sure your blood sugar levels are stable throughout the day and night. And do not eat any protein (meat, fish, etc) before bedtime. Something like oatmeal and a glass of milk is good for a nighttime snack. In your humble opinion, Dan, is there anything that can not be cured by regulating your blood sugar? And is carb loading really a good idea before bed? Al S.

Response:

Once in a fairly long while I’ll find myself in the middle of the night racing out of bed into the hallway to turn on the light, frightened out of my wits by something and my heart will be pounding like I have never felt it like that before. I do not recall any kind of dream or nightmare at all at these times. Anyone have 2 cents to add to this? Regards Cecelia

Response:

Sounds like REM sleep disorder. I’ve had it all my life and I usually get out of bed 2-3 times a night. Sorry to say it really sucks and I’m tired all the time. Hope this makes you feel better (!) Kristian Mail me if you want more info. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote in message news:3914e7b3@ecn.ab.ca… > Once in a fairly long while I’ll find myself in the middle of the night > racing out of bed into the hallway to turn on the light, frightened out of > my wits by something and my heart will be pounding like I have never felt > it like that before. I do not recall any kind of dream or nightmare at > all at these times. Anyone have 2 cents to add to this? > Regards > Cecelia

Response:

Maybe your blood sugar level is getting too low? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -cece…@ecn.ab.ca wrote: > Once in a fairly long while I’ll find myself in the middle of the night > racing out of bed into the hallway to turn on the light, frightened out of > my wits by something and my heart will be pounding like I have never felt > it like that before. I do not recall any kind of dream or nightmare at > all at these times. Anyone have 2 cents to add to this? > Regards > Cecelia