early waking
Question:
On Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:22:43 -0600, famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote:
I associate the early morning waking with a restless night. Isn’t there debate on whether or not a certain amount of quality sleep is needed for optimal functioning. Some articles (Time) have linked lack of sleep to driving accidents and work injuries. Is there any evidence that HRT or low dose birth control for perimenopausal women helps with sleep problems?
Response:
Ani wrote in message <343c0d4d.6253…@news.together.net>… >On Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:22:43 -0600, famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote: >I associate the early morning waking with a restless night. Isn’t >there debate on whether or not a certain amount of quality sleep is >needed for optimal functioning. Some articles (Time) have linked lack >of sleep to driving accidents and work injuries. >Is there any evidence that HRT or low dose birth control for >perimenopausal women helps with sleep problems?
From my reading I have learned that there is not any evidence that estrogen causes sleep enhancement. There is evidence that progesterone causes sleepiness and some women have to take it at night to avoid being grogged during the day. The speculated benefit to sleep attributed to HRT by my Endocrinology text book is that it eliminates or greatly reduces the hot flashes which are the factor, for many, disturbing sleep. Cheryl
Response:
Ani (A…@homeground.net) wrote:
: On Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:22:43 -0600, famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote: : I associate the early morning waking with a restless night. Isn’t : there debate on whether or not a certain amount of quality sleep is : needed for optimal functioning. Some articles (Time) have linked lack : of sleep to driving accidents and work injuries. : : Is there any evidence that HRT or low dose birth control for : perimenopausal women helps with sleep problems? Sleep benefits is not one of the authorized uses for BCPs, HRT or ERT. There is nothing in the product inserts for these drugs to even suggest using them as sleeping pills. OTOH, personal testimony on this issue has been highly mixed. Needing less sleep is an entirely different matter from sleep deprivation. A psycho-scoial theory on menopause suggests sleep deprivation can be a way to break down the ego creating the necessary ritual initiation into a deeper inner life. Surrendering to sleeplessness may prove to be more productive in the long run, than fighting it or drugging it over. Other speculation is that the fear of nightmares or dreams of impending mortality prevent mid-life people from actually going to sleep. Insomnia is a classic sign of depression and the progestin part of HRT can exacerbate depression. Having more waking hours is life extension in the middle of our lives, rather than at the end. Too many songs and stories tell of the "long dark night of the soul" and the "wee small hours of them morning" to ignore their psycho-social significance. Sleep deprivation is serious, as you note. Needing less sleep as we age is not. Menopause is the time to substitute one’s inner rhythms for outer rules. A sleep disorder clinic may help you sort this out. Joan L.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lblanch000 wrote: > Cheryl Snider wrote: > >From my reading I have learned that there is not any evidence that estrogen > >causes sleep enhancement. There is evidence that progesterone causes > >sleepiness and some women have to take it at night to avoid being grogged > >during the day. The speculated benefit to sleep attributed to HRT by my > >Endocrinology text book is that it eliminates or greatly reduces the hot > >flashes which are the factor, for many, disturbing sleep. > Hah! I just thought of something. I take my Provera pill at night just before I > go to bed — mostly because that’s a routine that works for me. But, hey, > guess what? I sleep like a baby and don’t have weird mood swings. Maybe some > of you HRT folks out there might want to switch to taking your pills right > before you go to bed and see what that does to your side-effects….. > Regards, > Laura Blanchard > lblanch…@aol.com
Hi, Laura – I’ve tried this with my progestin (Cycrin), and it really does help to keep the nasty mood swings at bay! Susan
Response:
Put me right in line with Carole Field. I, too, go to sleep around 11:30 and wake at 3:00 almost every nite. Some nites I can get back to sleep, but many nites I cannot. I also work and must face children in speech therapy feeling groggy and less enthusiastic than I want to be. I have read much, tried melatonin, increased exercise, vitamins, relaxation, nothing has worked. It is frustrating! We should form a sub-group of sleepless wonders who post in the wee hours of the nite! I don’t know what else to do. But I do appreciate knowing you are all out there sharing the same symptoms and feelings. I am not alone! Thanks. Jeri L.
Response:
Personally, CNN has been very helpful for me at 3:00 in the morning–I can catch up on all the news! JackieJ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Catherine Browman wrote: > In article <19971015032901.XAA13…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, > jlw7…@aol.com (JLW7035) wrote: > >… > > We should form a sub-group of sleepless wonders who post in the wee hours of > > the nite! I don’t know what else to do. But I do appreciate knowing you are > > all out there sharing the same symptoms and feelings. I am not alone! > > Thanks. Jeri L. > It would be a very large sub-group, perhaps not a sub-group at all. > Practically everyone who goes through menopause and has symptoms severe > enough to post here has had or is having (or will have) early waking. > Cathe (real email "brow…@haskins.yale.eedu" except > replace the "ee" in "eedu" so "edu" has a single "e") > [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of > Yale.]
Response:
On 15 Oct 1997, JLW7035 wrote: > We should form a sub-group of sleepless wonders who post in the wee hours of > the nite! I don’t know what else to do. But I do appreciate knowing you are > all out there sharing the same symptoms and feelings. I am not alone! > Thanks. Jeri L.
It already exists! I have posted my share of wee small hours myself in the past. Met some wonderful people on this group at those hours. Plus I found adding NBC "Conan O’Brian" to my late night repetoire from time to time helped me push the waking hour closer to 5:30 or 6am. Funny, intelligent stuff and gave a nice note to the end of the day. However, I was one of the lucky ones who gets by on 5-6 hours of sleep. Keep in mind…. this too will pass, and surrender, sweet surrender. It really does pass. Women are moon creatures, ours are the evening hours from a mythological and biological view point. Honor the darker mysteries that only women can know at these midnight hours. Joan L.
Response:
In article <19971015032901.XAA13…@ladder01.news.aol.com>, jlw7…@aol.com (JLW7035) wrote: >… > We should form a sub-group of sleepless wonders who post in the wee hours of > the nite! I don’t know what else to do. But I do appreciate knowing you are > all out there sharing the same symptoms and feelings. I am not alone! > Thanks. Jeri L.
It would be a very large sub-group, perhaps not a sub-group at all. Practically everyone who goes through menopause and has symptoms severe enough to post here has had or is having (or will have) early waking. Cathe (real email "brow…@haskins.yale.eedu" except replace the "ee" in "eedu" so "edu" has a single "e") [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of Yale.]
Response:
I am going to try that. I spend most of each night wide awake listening to the radio on earphones. I may sleep an hour, then wake up and stay awake 2 or 3 hours before sleeping another hour or two. I used to sleep like a baby – but not since I started menopause! On 9 Oct 1997 14:05:11 GMT, lblanch…@aol.com (Lblanch000) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Cheryl Snider wrote: >>From my reading I have learned that there is not any evidence that estrogen >>causes sleep enhancement. There is evidence that progesterone causes >>sleepiness and some women have to take it at night to avoid being grogged >>during the day. The speculated benefit to sleep attributed to HRT by my >>Endocrinology text book is that it eliminates or greatly reduces the hot >>flashes which are the factor, for many, disturbing sleep. >Hah! I just thought of something. I take my Provera pill at night just before I > go to bed — mostly because that’s a routine that works for me. But, hey, > guess what? I sleep like a baby and don’t have weird mood swings. Maybe some > of you HRT folks out there might want to switch to taking your pills right > before you go to bed and see what that does to your side-effects….. >Regards, >Laura Blanchard >lblanch…@aol.com
Response:
I do appreciate the philosophical view of this lack of sleep but I need help! I usually go to sleep @ 11 PM and fall asleep right away but I awaken at @ 2:30 AM. I don’t go back to sleep until 5:30 or so and then it’s time to get up. All day I feel like something the cat drug in. I face 1700 high school students and 120 teachers (many of whom are also menopausal) and I have to be the one with the constantly level head. I am DESPERATE
Response:
What dose of melatonin do you take? Is it prescribed by your doctor? I’m a little shy about using over the counter meds. Carole
Response:
In article <61ojfl$21q…@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com>, RGMF…@prodigy.com (Carole Fields) wrote: > I do appreciate the philosophical view of this lack of sleep but I need > help! I usually go to sleep @ 11 PM and fall asleep right away but I > awaken at @ 2:30 AM. I don’t go back to sleep until 5:30 or so and then > it’s time to get up. All day I feel like something the cat drug in. I > face 1700 high school students and 120 teachers (many of whom are also > menopausal) and I have to be the one with the constantly level head. I > am DESPERATE
You’ll get lots of sympathy from me, but no advice. It’s really awful. The only thing that continued to help me, after over a year of trying, was when I finally broke down out of desperation and got a prescription sleep aid. Cathe (real email "brow…@haskins.yale.eedu" except replace the "ee" in "eedu" so "edu" has a single "e") [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of Yale.]
Response:
Cheryl Snider wrote: >From my reading I have learned that there is not any evidence that estrogen >causes sleep enhancement. There is evidence that progesterone causes >sleepiness and some women have to take it at night to avoid being grogged >during the day. The speculated benefit to sleep attributed to HRT by my >Endocrinology text book is that it eliminates or greatly reduces the hot >flashes which are the factor, for many, disturbing sleep.
Hah! I just thought of something. I take my Provera pill at night just before I go to bed — mostly because that’s a routine that works for me. But, hey, guess what? I sleep like a baby and don’t have weird mood swings. Maybe some of you HRT folks out there might want to switch to taking your pills right before you go to bed and see what that does to your side-effects….. Regards, Laura Blanchard lblanch…@aol.com
Response:
On 8 Oct 1997 23:32:49 GMT, joan…@silcom.com (Joan Livingston Attorney at Law) wrote: > Sleep deprivation is serious, as you note. Needing less sleep as >we age is not. Menopause is the time to substitute one’s inner rhythms for >outer rules. A sleep disorder clinic may help you sort this out. >Joan L.
Thanks I am grumpy when I have a wakeful night! And it does happen often. I take sleep medication and maybe slightly resented the gung ho attitude of others who need less sleep. My most restless nights are associated by me with the first few days of my menstrual cycles and changing hormone levels. Now that my hormones are in greater flux I am having more trouble with sleep.
Response:
Thank you all for your responses. However, I am finding that unlike many of you, I don’t need reduced sleep hours. Because I still need the same number I am struggling to stay awake at night and if I need to go out at night I have a real problem. A daytime nap isn’t an option during the week as I am working. It’s just like I’m living on a different time clock than everyone else. If everyone else kept the same hours as me I wouldn’t have a problem – we’d all be ‘early to bed and early to risers.’ I can find plenty to do in the early hours, but I’d like to be able to stay awake at night to be with my friends and family or even watch a tv programme without falling asleep and missing the end. S ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Response:
Hi S, Do you know why we use the term coccoon in relationship to peri-menopause? It is because it indicates a turning inward, holing up type experience that is a TRANSITION leading to the turning outward once again into a beautiful butterfly. famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote: > Because I still need the same number I am struggling to stay awake > at night and if I need to go out at night I have a real problem. A >daytime nap isn’t an option during the week as I am working.
You can’t have it both ways. You can’t be your old self and have insomnia. If you hold on tight to the temporary aspect of this insomnia and give in to it which, for you means, going to bed early, seeing less of your family and less TV and not going out, then you should be able to get through this a little better. > It’s just like I’m living on a different time clock than everyone else. >If everyone else kept the same hours as me I wouldn’t have a problem – >we’d all be ‘early to bed
This is what I found, too. I had to walk to the beat of my own drum and forget about what society was expecting of me. Are you afraid to be alone with yourself? Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
Hi Cool Runnings As a psychologist/counsellor who has recently retired from the field to do other more interesting things I can’t accept all this psychological garbage. One of the things I found most difficult about being in the counselling area was the way people made simple everyday difficulties into major psychological issues. No, I don’t have a problem being with myself (in fact I enjoy time alone) but I also enjoy my friends and family, and given a choice would like to keep the same hours as they do. If that is not possible, so be it. However, that will not stop me searching for another answer. S ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Response:
Hi S, famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote: > One of the things I found most difficult about being in the counselling > area was the way people made simple everyday difficulties into major > psychological issues.
We’re in total agreement on this. I’m all for the simple solution. > No, I don’t have a problem being with myself (in fact I enjoy time alone)
Just bringing up questions, not making assumptions here. Some people don’t like to be alone. For myself I’d have to say that I’ve never in my whole life enjoyed being alone more than in peri-menopause. > but I also enjoy my friends and family, and given a choice would like >to keep the same hours as they do. If that is not possible, so be it.
A valid point of view. I have found that I was not always in the position to make a choice during peri-menopause. In fact, many times my symptoms more or less dictated my behavior. So, I began to focus, even cling to the PAUSE part of the word. As in, I’m not real happy about what I’m going through at this time, however, I realize that this is temporary and will pass. > However, that will not stop me searching for another answer.
Nothing wrong with that either. Believe me, I certainly did. I think it is a natural experience, particularly during the early stages of peri-menopause. What I have come to learn is that it is very hard to be in control of the situation when your hormones are fluctuating wildly. Your experience may prove to be different. My own insomnia was no picnic. There were times when I could literally hardly remember my own name. The lack of sleep made me feel hysterical. I often felt I could not go on that way, but somehow I did. It is not fun when your own cozy bed becomes your own worst enemy. I will be happy to share more details of my insomnia at any time. But, for now, I hope you find your solution. Good luck. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
Hi Debbie G., wcovexip wrote: > As I entered peri-menopause that is the first symptom I really > noticed… early waking and difficulty falling asleep. (snip) I also >have just gone with it and get up out of bed when I wake up and go back >when I feel sleepy. I thought I would crash and burn during the day, but >I haven’t found this to be so.
Good for you! Perhaps you willingness to just roll with it helps. > During nursing school I HAD to learn to live with only 5 hours a night > and found I could do it and DID do it for 5 years, now I seem to do > fine on whatever sleep nature tends to give me. It was a challenge to > make the adjustment, but I trust "mother nature".
Well, you can also hold this thought. It is highly unlikely that your peri-menopause insomnia will go on for anything even close to five years. Mine was really bad for about six months. I’ve had a few smaller bouts now and then. > I also read a book > called "five nights to better sleep" or something like that and it > helped me get a handle on my wakefulness, what was causing it and how > to deal with it. It was boring but VERY helpful.
Other women have posted that doing "boring" things has helped with their insomnia. 
Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
Joan Livingston wrote: > By transforming "insomnia" into increased wakefulness and doing > productive, or self-valuing things, I feel I got "life extension" by > adding more hours to my day in the middle of my life, rather than >trying to tack them on at the end of my life.
This was an important transition for me. Do we have to be diagnosed with a life-threatening illness before we take time to smell the roses? The go-go thirties of our life would have us think so. Joan, you are right. Adding extra time to each day as opposed to trying to snatch a couple of extra days at the end of our lives. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
> >Joan Livingston <joan…@rain.org> wrote: > > And if I did wake up, I got up and did something for a awhile > > until I got sleepy again. I suspect that much of the difficulty with > >this can be in the fretting over it, rather than just the shorter > > >hours of sleep. I don’t know. But it is one symptoms that seems to > > >respond to surrender, and no fighting it.
This was certainly true for me. I’d look at the clock, worry about the hour, count the hours of sleep I’d had, wonder if I could keep my appointments for the next day. Karen Kay wrote: > Some people just need more sleep than others, and I freely admit to >being one of them.
I am, too, but during my insomnia phase this was not an option. People may vary. Cool Runnings, HomemakerJ
Response:
Catherine Browman <fake_addr…@nowhere.edu> wrote:
: > changes except tiredness ( which is understandable given my long day). : > : > Is this a usual sign of menopause? If so, can anyone help with any : > suggestions that would help me sleep an extra hour or two. My sleep needs changed drastically when I entered post-menopause. There was an adjustment, but now I need only about 5 1/2 or 6 hours sleep a night and I’m just fine during the day. I don’t think I’m unique in experiencing "menopause zest"; I’m glad it came along when it did! Dolores
Response:
> In article <875729972.32…@dejanews.com>, famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote: > > I’m 50 and for the last few months have been waking at about 4.30am. I’ve > > always been a morning person but this is ridiculous! > > I have had some minor changes in my periods but have noticed no other > > changes except tiredness ( which is understandable given my long day). > > Is this a usual sign of menopause? If so, can anyone help with any > > suggestions that would help me sleep an extra hour or two.
This is pretty common for both men and women at midlife. There is something haunting in song and story about 4am. It is when the adrenal glands which regulate our stress levels are at their lowest production, according to some course I took. These are the wee small hours of the morning …the long dark night of the soul …etc. etc .etc I started calling them "increased wakefulness" rather than insomnia as I found I was doing okay on far fewer hours of sleep. 5-6 are okay for me now. I started going to bed later so I would not wake up earlier. And if I did wake up, I got up and did something for a awhile until I got sleepy again. I suspect that much of the difficulty with this can be in the fretting over it, rather than just the shorter hours of sleep. I don’t know. But it is one symptoms that seems to respond to surrender, and no fighting it. Getting on the computer and talking to "us" is a good way to spend those early morning hours …right Judi? … we had a great conversation going on for a while. But you say your are tired and have long days. Maybe this is a "wake-up call" to reevalute your long days and shift some of your burdens. Menopause seems to be a real cocooning time for some women, a time for aloneness and self-nurturing. Is there some way you can use this time to really indulge yourself and pamper yourself in a way you don’t get during the daytime hours? Maybe you can shift some of the things you do during your long days into this cocoon time. Something tells me your long days may be more of the problem than the short nights. Do you think? By transforming "insomnia" into increased wakefulness and doing productive, or self-valuing things, I feel I got "life extension" by adding more hours to my day in the middle of my life, rather than trying to tack them on at the end of my life. In myth and initiation ritual, sleep deprivation is often a way to break down the "ego" before a transformation into a new reality can take place. This may be an important part of this mid-life passage. I am beginning to see meno as the crunching and grinding that goes on between two tectonic plates. On one side is our reproductive "youth" with all its biological demands and roles and impacts on our choices and life. On the other side is the acceptance that life is now a limited entity and far more accountable for the finite todays, and not the infinite tomorrows. I see this as a -major- shift in life orientation and the meno "fault line" between the two tectonic plates is full of earthquakes, volcanos and disruption, truly a ring of fire. A transition zone before one crosses over to living well in acceptance of the other side. And this does not necessarily need to wait until meno to happen, maybe it is just coincidental. I had major 4am awakenings when I was deep into depression and panic attacks in my post-divorce 30’s. Increased wakefulness can be gift of life, focus, awareness and productivity at a very important juncture of our lives. And yes, I know it can also be a total pain for many others. But I wanted to throw out how I personally dealt with this symptom as this is the place we tell our meno stories. I no longer "experience" insomnia, but then my new habits are in place so maybe I have just adapted around it. I need far less sleep now. I follow my inner clock and no longer outer "rules" about my sleep "needs." And this is the gift of the meno experience for me. Joan L.
Response:
In article <875729972.32…@dejanews.com>, famwh…@xtra.co.nz wrote: > I’m 50 and for the last few months have been waking at about 4.30am. I’ve > always been a morning person but this is ridiculous! > I have had some minor changes in my periods but have noticed no other > changes except tiredness ( which is understandable given my long day). > Is this a usual sign of menopause? If so, can anyone help with any > suggestions that would help me sleep an extra hour or two.
Yup. I just learned to put up with it–don’t know anything that stops it. Cathe (real email "brow…@haskins.yale.eedu" except replace the "ee" in "eedu" so "edu" has a single "e") [Note: Haskins, a non-profit speech research lab, is *not* part of Yale.]
Response:
I’m 50 and for the last few months have been waking at about 4.30am. I’ve always been a morning person but this is ridiculous! I have had some minor changes in my periods but have noticed no other changes except tiredness ( which is understandable given my long day). Is this a usual sign of menopause? If so, can anyone help with any suggestions that would help me sleep an extra hour or two. I know early waking is a sign of depression, but I’m not depressed. S ——————-==== Posted via Deja News ====———————– http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
