Dental Devises for OSA

Question:

Has anyone had experience with dental devices for treating sleep apnea?  I have used one for about 6 months with some improvement but I’m still a long way from feeling 100%.  Its difficult to find first hand experience from others who have used these things.

Response:

I’m going to follow this trhead closely.  I’m on CPAP and would like to have a dental appliance for back-up but, my (possibly soon to be former) sleep speicalist is dead set against them On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:40:12 -0700, "Ian McCririck" <mccrir…@direct.ca> wrote: >Has anyone had experience with dental devices for treating sleep apnea?  I >have used one for about 6 months with some improvement but I’m still a long >way from feeling 100%.  Its difficult to find first hand experience from >others who have used these things.

Jim Cox * Antispam Warning:  Replace "web" in my email address * *                    with "a51" to reply via email.    *

Response:

Ian McCririck <mccrir…@direct.ca> wrote in message

news:zltT2.4535$JM2.308683@newsgate.direct.ca… > Has anyone had experience with dental devices for treating sleep apnea?  I > have used one for about 6 months with some improvement but I’m still a long > way from feeling 100%.  Its difficult to find first hand experience from > others who have used these things.

I would like to hear your experiences. Mine is pushing me to pay $1000 to an orthodontist to get one fitted. He misses the point with me – I dont work because of sleep apnea and the device isnt covered here in Australia. I dont have the $1000 to spend on something that wont work if that be the case. — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

Response:

Jim, I believe you are in my neck of the woods.  Check with Providence Sleep Disorders Center in Seattle.  Also, there is a group in Tacoma that specializes in mouth appliances I believe call "TMJ Associates".  I went to a lecture they held and have had fairly decent success in this area. If you would like more info, drop me a line and we can discuss in person. BillsC…@aol.com Bill

Response:

Ian McCririck wondered: > Has anyone had experience with dental devices for > treating sleep apnea?

Ian, welcome.  Hopefully you will get some advice here that will help. Dental devices are a somewhat touchy subject.  Sometimes they are over pushed by people that should know better.  But yes, they can be effective. First some questions:   1.    Did you have a sleep study done?  Or did         you just self diagnose yourself and decide         that would be a good approach?   2.    Did you dentist / orthadonist make any effort         to determine the location(s) of the obstructions. Since you note that you’re not all the way home yet, it’s possible that either might bear some examination.  Even if you had a sleep study.  If the dental device is not solving the problem, you may need another with the dental device.  You could then find out why is distrubing your sleep.  You might then need to combine it with other therapies.  For example, I use a bite plate in addition to my BiPAP unit and medicine to improve my sleep. And yes, it is hard to find that first hand experience.  This is one reason I think it helps some but not all.  But that’s also true for CPAP therapy. Hope this helps. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

Response:

In article <zltT2.4535$JM2.308…@newsgate.direct.ca>,   "Ian McCririck" <mccrir…@direct.ca> wrote: > Has anyone had experience with dental devices for treating sleep apnea?  I > have used one for about 6 months with some improvement but I’m still a long > way from feeling 100%.  Its difficult to find first hand experience from > others who have used these things.

I’m very interested in having one to use on airplanes when I fly overseas.  I use a CPAP very successfully when I sleep in a bed, but need an alternative that doesn’t use electricity when in flight.  I’m interested in knowing how the dental device, even if it isn’t as effective as a CPAP, would work in such part-time use. Unfortunately, it seems like dental devices are just a way for dentists to cash in on sleep disorders.  The charges I’ve been hearing are about as high as I’ve already spent with a sleep specialist to get on the CPAP all over again –  just for a piece of plastic to stick in my mouth and hold my tongue down while I sleep.  I’ve wondered if I could make one myself. Ron Rackley Sarasota, Florida ———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own    

Response:

Hi Ron – I had heard that at least some airplanes used on long international flights had power available at the seats for use with laptop computers, etc.  Have you checked with your airline(s) to see if power might be available on your flights?  I have not flown on a long flight for several years, so I have no first-hand experience. Kent Taylor (Mongo) <snip> |I’m very interested in having one to use on airplanes when I fly overseas.  I |use a CPAP very successfully when I sleep in a bed, but need an alternative |that doesn’t use electricity when in flight.  I’m interested in knowing how |the dental device, even if it isn’t as effective as a CPAP, would work in |such part-time use. <snip> |Ron Rackley |Sarasota, Florida | |———–== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==———- |http://www.dejanews.com/       Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own

Response:

On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:23:25 GMT, rrack…@my-dejanews.com wrote: >I’m very interested in having one to use on airplanes when I fly overseas.  I >use a CPAP very successfully when I sleep in a bed, but need an alternative >that doesn’t use electricity when in flight.  

A number of long-haul aircraft by various carriers are already equipped for our CPAP problem. Ask. — IMPORTANT: Remove the edible part of the E-mail address before replying.

Response:

rrack…@my-dejanews.com wrote: > I’m very interested in having one to use on airplanes when I fly overseas.  I > use a CPAP very successfully when I sleep in a bed, but need an alternative > that doesn’t use electricity when in flight.

Have you asked airlines if they have any seats that have a 12v plug for plugging in a laptop?  If they do, you can plug in your CPAP with a 12v adaptor. Or you can get both the 12v adaptor AND a battery adaptor cable AND a quick-start battery (like Century’s J850) and plug the CPAP into that — if the airline is willing to let you bring the mess aboard. –Lee

Response:

Charles L. Perrin <clper…@swbell.net.nuts> wrote in message news:3721a191.8234457@news.swbell.net… > On Fri, 23 Apr 1999 11:23:25 GMT, rrack…@my-dejanews.com wrote: > >I’m very interested in having one to use on airplanes when I fly overseas.  I > >use a CPAP very successfully when I sleep in a bed, but need an alternative > >that doesn’t use electricity when in flight. > A number of long-haul aircraft by various carriers are already > equipped for our CPAP problem. Ask.

Just dont fly Qantas and expect that service. — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

Response:

>I’m very interested in having one to use on airplanes when I fly overseas.  I >use a CPAP very successfully when I sleep in a bed, but need an alternative >that doesn’t use electricity when in flight.  I’m interested in knowing how >the dental device, even if it isn’t as effective as a CPAP, would work in >such part-time use.

Ron,  I fly overseas very regularly and my experience is the type of aircraft is more likely to determine the accessories available more than the airline….but this is NOT a rule ! Do you do far east or europe ?  Far east you’d be better on United rather than Northwest but if you are on a 747-400, then it seems there’s more chance of the 12v availability than on earlier 747 series planes. If you travel with Far eatern carriers you do better (WHY ????..I don’t know). Singapore airlines seem to have everything, I saw a guy using CPAP but didn’t know this until I read this NG,,,thought it was oxygen !. European ?  Virgin are best and the Airbus aircraft tend to be bettre fitted out than Boeing…… One other trueism……if you fly business you are much more likely to have the 12v seat service. I don’t get business except for 10 hrs+ flights. Check the airline web pages…the aircraft type is always available and you can also request special services for you flight too. They have your profile in advance…demand the service ! Trevor

Response:

>On Wed, 21 Apr 1999 16:40:12 -0700, "Ian McCririck" ><mccrir…@direct.ca> wrote: >>Has anyone had experience with dental devices for treating sleep apnea?  I >>have used one for about 6 months with some improvement but I’m still a long >>way from feeling 100%.  Its difficult to find first hand experience from >>others who have used these things.

I tried a couple inexpensive mandibular advancement devices (moves the jaw forward) and they didn’t help me at all.  But a device to hold my tongue forward does help me.  Options I’ve tried: 1. Athletic teeth guards available at Walmart, Kmart, etc.  This is the poor man’s solution, but requires a lot of work.  Two of them can be purchased for under $10 but they need to be attached so that the bottom one sticks out farther than the top one.  Holes need to be poked with needles and then floss can be used to tie the two together.  I tried this but had alot of problems getting the thing made, and then once I had it, trying to adjust the amount of advancement was a nightmare.  And in the end, it didn’t help my problem anyway.  My suggestion–skip this step and go to number two. 2. If you really want to know if jaw advancement will help you, I recommend trying the Snor-ban device or something similar.  Alot of people on the newsgroup feel the Snorban is just a scam, but to me, it was worth $30 compared to fiddling with trying to make something myself.  And it’s still an extreme bargain compared to what you’ll pay in the dentist’s office for any kind of devise.  Trying this convinced me that the expensive devises for advancing the jaw ($500-1000 from the dentist) would not be worth it in my case. 3. Tongue advancement devices–these are harder to find than jaw advancement devices.  One thing to keep in mind–whereas CPAP is more universal in helping most apnea regardless of site of obstruction, the dental devices are much more specific.  They don’t help apnea universally, but can help depending on where you obstruct.  The most well-known tongue device is called the TRD–Tongue-Retaining Device.  You can only get it through a dentist, and it is custom-made to fit your mouth.  I think the cost would be about $1000, but I never pursued it because I found a less-expensive solution.  There’s something called a tongue-locking device that comes in standard sizes–small, medium, and large.  It costs about $100, but has to be ordered by your dentist OR doctor.  My family doctor agreed to order one for me at cost, but I’m sure many would want to add a markup.  About $100 is what they have to pay the lab.  The only problem is……they quit making these, and are limited to the supply still on hand.  I know for sure they are out of the large size. If interested, have your doctor call Great Lakes Orthodontics, Ltd. in Tonawanda, New York.  800-828-7626.  I have been unable to find anyone else that makes a devise specifically for tongue advancement, especially at a relatively reasonable cost.  If you pursue this option, be advised that the company also sells more expensive devices, and will try to push those models over the "discontinued" one. My rationale was to try the most inexpensive devices first, to see if there was any chance of helping my apnea, and if I found it significantly helpful, then I’d perhaps seek one of the more expensive custom-fitted devices from a dentist.  There’s no reason we should have to pay $1000 for a device without having any idea if it will help or not. Another note of caution:  You have to be very determined (and perhaps desparate) to stick with a dental device.  They are very uncomfortable, especially for the first week or so.  For me, it was difficult to sleep with something in my mouth, and my mouth would water profusely when I put the thing in.  After a couple weeks, that side effect went away, and I now use the tongue device nightly.  Still, it bothers my jaw if I wear it the whole night, so I end up with CPAP part of the night, and the tongue device the rest of the time. That’s my two cents worth on dental devises. Tim W.

Response:

In article <qnlU2.1220$8j6.7…@newsfeed.slurp.net>, "Tim W." <t…@NOSPAM.com> writes [...] >2. If you really want to know if jaw advancement will help you, I recommend >trying the Snor-ban device or something similar.  Alot of people on the >newsgroup feel the Snorban is just a scam, but to me, it was worth $30 >compared to fiddling with trying to make something myself.  And it’s still >an extreme bargain compared to what you’ll pay in the dentist’s office for >any kind of devise.  Trying this convinced me that the expensive devises for >advancing the jaw ($500-1000 from the dentist) would not be worth it in my >case.

Just curious, did you get your money back under the Snor-ban guarantee? Regards, Paul —      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

Response:

Paul Kemp wrote in message <4hS30AAlffI3E…@kemp.demon.co.uk>… >Just curious, did you get your money back under the Snor-ban guarantee?

I didn’t try, Paul, and in fact forgot that was even offered.  I had tried it  over a year ago, but you’re right, they do offer a money-back guarantee. Something I wish a few other apnea treatment providers would offer. Tim W.

Response:

Tim W. wrote: > … they do offer a money-back guarantee. Something I wish > a few other apnea treatment providers would offer.

Tim, if I remember correctly, they do NOT suggest it as an apnea treatment. Instead they only focus on apnea, and if I remember correctly they mention that if severe snoring continues you should see a doctor. It doesn’t stop my snoring, but it does help with lower jaw advancement. So, I still use it on ‘bad nights’. But I agree, it would be good if other manufacturer’s were as responsible. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

Response:

John B. Fisher wrote in message <_GKU2.5102$Qk….@news4.mco>… >Tim, if I remember correctly, they do NOT suggest it as an apnea treatment. >Instead they only focus on apnea, and if I remember correctly they mention >that if severe snoring continues you should see a doctor.

Thanks, John.  You could be right–I’m not sure if the Snorban has even been tested for apnea, let alone approved.  But it does advance the lower jaw in the same way that the expensive devises do, some of which have received FDA approval for treatment of obstructive apnea.  The main difference is that the expensive devises sometimes are easily adjustable to vary the amount of advancement, whereas the Snorban is designed to have the advancement set when you first boil it, and to continue at that setting. >It doesn’t stop my snoring, but it does help with lower jaw advancement. >So, I still use it on ‘bad nights’.

It’s nice to have a break from CPAP once in awhile, isn’t it? Best wishes, Tim W. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->But I agree, it would be good if other manufacturer’s were as responsible. >Regards, >=jbf= >John B. Fisher

Response:

Mr. Bear, are you Som Phan?

Question:

>  Like you, I am sad to see that many of the "old timers" on the group > are absent. I miss Sally, Ed, Dr.White…….and of course, Doug. Do you > have any ideas or connections that could help verify what has happened > to Doug? Is there an AWAKE chapter in or near Ogden, Utah? Doug (like > me) has taken long "vacations" from the group in the past, and I hope > that this is the current situation. > > So now I don’t know what most of the threads are > > talking about, but it’s still good to be reading the group again.  Hi to > > all the old guys and the new people too. >  There was a lady that posted about a week ago looking for a sleep > medicine doctor in Baltimore……..I referred her to J.H.  Do you have > any suggestions as to a specific doctor?

I can’t guarantee I’ll be back daily, but I’ll try to check up on everyone as often as possible.  There are no A.W.A.K.E. support groups in Utah at all — and I wonder if Doug was using his real name.  I’m hoping he’ll show up somewhere soon! My personal favorite doctor at the Hopkins Sleep Disorders Center is Alan Schwartz — just because he was the first doctor I met there when I was diagnosed and he has always been so great.  All the docs I’ve met there have been impressive! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->  – > > Lauren Ero,M.S. > > American Sleep Apnea Association > > A.W.A.K.E. Network Director > > Coordinator, A.W.A.K.E. in Baltimore

Response:

Hi Lauren, missed ya.  Glad you’re back.  Hope we can find Doug. Happy Holidays, Deb

Response:

Mrs. Duck wrote: > Hi Lauren, missed ya.  Glad you’re back.  Hope we can find Doug. > Happy Holidays, Deb

 Hi Deb, It’s nice to be back, but I still can’t keep up with all this group activity!  I was very sorry to hear about Doug’s possible demise, but I wouldn’t know how to track him down.  I wonder if that was his real name? — Lauren Ero,M.S. American Sleep Apnea Association A.W.A.K.E. Network Director Coordinator, A.W.A.K.E. in Baltimore

Response:

Mr. Bear, Great to have you back. Regards John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nospam@this bear wrote in message <3669F8DE.803F9…@spamfree.net>… >x-no-archive: yes >Mongo wrote: >> Welcome back!  I am sorry to hear that you have not been well.  I hope you >> are feeling better now.  I look forward to your renewed posting. >> Mongo (Kent E. Taylor) > Hi Kent, > Thanks for the well wishes!  All that I can say is NEVER NEVER NEVER >let ANYONE cut on you for apnea……..I learned my lessons the hard >way. >…….Cynical (and wiser) by experience……..Bear……….

Response:

I’m waiting for a big "bear" hug  :-)  I have been absent myself lately, and don’t recognize any of the names here anymore.  Tonight is the first chance I’ve had to post here and I had over 700 unread messages and about that many expired.  So now I don’t know what most of the threads are talking about, but it’s still good to be reading the group again.  Hi to all the old guys and the new people too. Lauren — Lauren Ero,M.S. American Sleep Apnea Association A.W.A.K.E. Network Director Coordinator, A.W.A.K.E. in Baltimore

Response:

Hi, Mr. Bear.  Glad you’re back.  I need you to explaine things like *oreos* to me.  :-) Didn’t you have surgery?  Are you okay now? Mary Lee On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 23:42:23 GMT, n…@nospam.freeserve.co.uk (Tony – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Polson) wrote: >On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:40:48 -0800, in alt.support.sleep-disorder "nospam@this >bear" <Nos…@spamfree.net> wrote: >> Hi Deb, >> Yupp………It that pesky ole Bear is back again.  :!) It is nice to >>know that you missed me. >Welcome back Bear.  Please stay with us this time. >– >Tony Polson, North Yorkshire, UK >to reply change nospam to scalby

Response:

Welcome back!  I am sorry to hear that you have not been well.  I hope you are feeling better now.  I look forward to your renewed posting. Mongo (Kent E. Taylor)

Response:

In article <3669ED10.B4BCA…@spamfree.net>, "nospam@this bear" <Nos…@spamfree.net> writes >> Welcome back Bear.  Please stay with us this time.

Ditto here. >> — > Greeting, my old friend. It is good to hear from you again. The past 6 >months have been pretty rough…..But I am on the mend.

[...] Glad to hear you are feeling better, just sorry that the news of Doug was the catalyst that brought you out of lurking mode. Regards Paul PS If you could, can you get rid of the no archive stuff at the beginning of your postings. It makes it impossible to read them via DeJanews, you may be depriving many people of your input. (and some people who check out this NG while at work – at lunch time of course  ) —      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

Response:

Hi, if you are som phan….I have missed you and your postings.  Have you been well. You had so much to give to this group. Why did you stop posting. Please, if you are The "Mr. Bear", from last year on this ng, please return.  I am sure so many people have missed you.  Thanks. deb

Response:

On Fri, 04 Dec 1998 12:40:48 -0800, in alt.support.sleep-disorder "nospam@this bear" <Nos…@spamfree.net> wrote: > Hi Deb, > Yupp………It that pesky ole Bear is back again.  :!) It is nice to >know that you missed me.

Welcome back Bear.  Please stay with us this time. — Tony Polson, North Yorkshire, UK to reply change nospam to scalby

Response:

Excessive Nightmares

Question:

I am told that I have nightly disturbed sleep in which I cannot be waken out of. It is set off by common noises in the house and I do not remember any of the occurrences. I fight something in my sleep and when I wake I am very drained of all strength and am exhausted. My partner tells me that these are coming more frequently and I become very very strong in my sleep. I feel that I am having a nightmare but do not remember what is happening so that I can stop them.

Response:

You may be fighting to breath? Daniel John Kingsford wrote in message <70v6eu$dn…@whisper.globalserve.net>…

I fight something in my sleep and when I wake I am very – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->drained of all strength and am exhausted. >

Response:

John – your nightmares sound dreadful.  I have no medical training but it sounds like what I have read about ‘night terrors’.  There is a lot of info about sleep in general and sleep disorders in particular at this UCLA site.  Night terrors and other similar disorders are described in Section L, which can be reached from the lower center frame of this web page:   http://bisleep.medsch.ucla.edu/sleepsyllabus/ I am sure that I have seen other info about night terrors elsewhere but I couldn’t find it when I looked for it just now.  I’ll post it if I run across it again. Mongo John Kingsford <jkf…@globalserve.net> wrote in article <70v6eu$dn…@whisper.globalserve.net>… | I am told that I have nightly disturbed sleep in which I cannot be waken out | of. It is set off by common noises in the house and I do not remember any of | the occurrences. I fight something in my sleep and when I wake I am very | drained of all strength and am exhausted. My partner tells me that these are | coming more frequently and I become very very strong in my sleep. I feel | that I am having a nightmare but do not remember what is happening so that I | can stop them. | | |

Response:

I still haven’t found the reference that I was looking for, but I did find this one by searching for ‘night terrors’ using Yahoo.  Note that there are pages in addition to the ‘Main Page’ that the URL points to.   http://www2.miracle.net/~dwr/ Mongo

Response:

Here is another site with info and links about night terrors:   http://www.epub.org.br/cm/n06/doencas/terror/terror1_i.htm Mongo

Response:

John It sounds like you are having "Night Terrors" and not nightmares. People recall the plot of or details of nightmares, and they don’t recall any of that with night terrors. The fighting you describe is usually a defensive kind of thing, as if warding off an attack. Another earmark is that night terrors usually happen in the first third of the night; nightmares usually occur towards morning. You may need to consult a sleep specialist, especially one who is familiar with behavioral disturbances of sleep. Check your local medical facilities, or call the Association of Professional Sleep Societies in Rochester MN.  Good luck…..

Response:

sleep studies

Question:

Talk about luck.  I got a call from the sleep center and they had two cancellations so my husband Bill and I will be going in tomorrow night for our sleep tests.  His a first and mine a retest with my Cpap machine.  thats better than Aug. 30 and Sept. 16. Did call the Dr. office since some of my problems have lessened.  Doing better, but still wonder if I could feel more rested. When you don’t sleep well for so long, you really have no idea what normal is. And with 84  know sleep disorders, always wonder if could have more than sleep apnea.  I had wanted them to try and up my pressure from 4-6 ramping to 6-8.  Hate to have another test at $2003 (course don’t know how much of that the insurance company pays.  you know the arrangements they have) I accidently got a bill for the first test.  They tried to bill it to my husband’s policy.  I have my own policy, cheaper by about $200 a month. Maybe it is a good idea to do it over with my own machine. Also would someone reply to my post as Doug seems to think I am putting up a bogus address.  If you don’t get a OK back, let me know at pgalw…@juno.com

Response:

Paula Jean Galwith wrote: > Talk about luck.  I got a call from the sleep center and they had two > cancellations so my husband Bill and I will be going in tomorrow night > for our sleep tests.  His a first and mine a retest with my Cpap > machine.  thats better than Aug. 30 and Sept. 16. > snipped < > Also would someone reply to my post as Doug seems to think I am putting > up a bogus address.  If you don’t get a OK back, let me know at > pgalw…@juno.com

Congratulations on getting earlier sleep studies.  Emailed and posted. — BigAl db-g…@bigfoot.com

Response:

help can't sleep chest tightens

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -foobar1…@my-dejanews.com wrote: > when I am trying to get to sleep at night. > just as I become relaxed, > my chest around my heart feels like it constricts, > my heart races, and I feel I must get up and run around–like > my body is out of control-spaz attack. > This is a hell I go through every night. > I don’t use any caffine in the day. > But the symptom reminds me of a caffine-attack. > I just can’t be still even though I am very tired. > This crap still happens even if I do a huge amount of exercize in the day. > —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

My first suggestion is that you see a physician certified in sleep disorders or an accredited sleep center.  They are the best to advise you.  This is not something that you should mess around with.  If you need informaiton on a sleep physician in your area, I’ll be happy to help you.  Just let me know. –Joe– cpapman.com

Response:

Hi, I experience something like what you described, without the heart stuff. I am just about to fall asleep or maybe do fall aslee for a minute or two, and then, pow, I just seem to wake up like I have to run around the block.  Bugs the hell out of me.  Usually go down to the kitchen for a bowl of cheerios.  Watch a little tv and hopfully relax to fall asleep.  I don’t know why either.  Maybe has something to do with control. Some days I just feel like my life is out of control because I am not able to work outside the house and have to be financially dependent on my hubby, like a wife from the 1950’s used to.  That bugs the hell out of me, but it sure beats being dead, which I would have been if not for the sleep clinic and cpap. Talk to your doc.  sounds scarry to me….are you overweight.  That may contribute to this stuff.  Check it out and keep us informed.  We all hope for the best for you.  Regards, Deb

Response:

It sounds to me more like a panic attack.  They used to wake my brother up at night all the time.  If you have a doc, go see him/her; otherwise, go to the nearest ER. Good luck! In article <6p4qab$gb…@nnrp1.dejanews.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  foobar1…@my-dejanews.com wrote: > when I am trying to get to sleep at night. > just as I become relaxed, > my chest around my heart feels like it constricts, > my heart races, and I feel I must get up and run around–like > my body is out of control-spaz attack. > This is a hell I go through every night. > I don’t use any caffine in the day. > But the symptom reminds me of a caffine-attack. > I just can’t be still even though I am very tired. > This crap still happens even if I do a huge amount of exercize in the day. > —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– > http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

—–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

Response:

when I am trying to get to sleep at night. just as I become relaxed, my chest around my heart feels like it constricts, my heart races, and I feel I must get up and run around–like my body is out of control-spaz attack. This is a hell I go through every night. I don’t use any caffine in the day. But the symptom reminds me of a caffine-attack. I just can’t be still even though I am very tired. This crap still happens even if I do a huge amount of exercize in the day. —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp   Create Your Own Free Member Forum

Response:

To Zorro and others

Question:

Dan, How much do you charge for a night’s use of the "box" and the analysis followup? Is the "box" a commerical unit?   If so, could you tell us the manufacturer?  Can it be used with CPAP (to monitor the effectiveness of the CPAP treatment)? Thanks Chuck – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dan Weinhold wrote: > At our sleep disorders center, we use a box like you describe. It reads > airflow through the mouth and nose reads attempts to breathe, listens to > snoring, counts the heartrate, keeps track of body position, and checks > the Oxygen saturation present several times a second. This information is > stored on board a box. The wearer takes the box home and wears the sensors > to bed at home. The wearer keeps the sensors on for a usual sleep period. > Then the box is returned to us, and the data that has been collected for > the past number of hours, is downloaded to a printer and printed out in a > neat minute by minute form. We use this procedure as a screen to see if > the person needs a complete overnight sleep study in our sleep center. I > think this box does incorporate the airflow sensor you have described > below. > Dan

Response:

Hi Zorro, I hope you read this. Being a chronic-fatigue-sufferer, I’ve been following this newsgroup for quite a while and I’ve seen you’re pretty active in it, so you might be the one to help me with this one. I asked this question before, but I still don’t know what to do. I’m also an electronics-enthousiast and since I have problems breathing at night, I got this little idea for building a device which would monitor breathing at night. It would simply see whenever an exhale happens, being it through the nose or through the mouth. It stores the times at which this happens and in the morning the device is connected to a PC on which a special program will give a graphical display of the whole breathing-history of the past night. You can then see when and how much you exhaled the last night. One can discover this way if, how much and when apneas happen during the night and also if there’s a healthy though the nose or a thruogh the mounth breathing. Perhaps others abnormalities can be discovered too. I think this can be done for relatively few money. The thing I wonder about is: would this device be usefull for people? I mean, it’s going to take me a whole lot of effort doing research and stuff and I gotta save energy as it is, so I would only stick to my plan if I can forsee it being usefull to others too. Thank you for your reply. Bart PS: this is no spamming, the thing doesn’t even exist at this point.

Response:

At our sleep disorders center, we use a box like you describe. It reads airflow through the mouth and nose reads attempts to breathe, listens to snoring, counts the heartrate, keeps track of body position, and checks the Oxygen saturation present several times a second. This information is stored on board a box. The wearer takes the box home and wears the sensors to bed at home. The wearer keeps the sensors on for a usual sleep period. Then the box is returned to us, and the data that has been collected for the past number of hours, is downloaded to a printer and printed out in a neat minute by minute form. We use this procedure as a screen to see if the person needs a complete overnight sleep study in our sleep center. I think this box does incorporate the airflow sensor you have described below. Dan In article <6ogbv9$q0…@news3.Belgium.EU.net>, "Bart Coninckx" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<bart.conin…@ping.be> wrote: >Hi Zorro, >I hope you read this. Being a chronic-fatigue-sufferer, I’ve been following >this newsgroup for quite a while and I’ve seen you’re pretty active in it, >so you might be the one to help me with this one. >I asked this question before, but I still don’t know what to do. I’m also an >electronics-enthousiast and since I have problems breathing at night, I got >this little idea for building a device which would monitor breathing at >night. It would simply see whenever an exhale happens, being it through the >nose or through the mouth. It stores the times at which this happens and in >the morning the device is connected to a PC on which a special program will >give a graphical display of the whole breathing-history of the past night. >You can then see when and how much you exhaled the last night. One can >discover this way if, how much and when apneas happen during the night and >also if there’s a healthy though the nose or a thruogh the mounth breathing. >Perhaps others abnormalities can be discovered too. >I think this can be done for relatively few money. >The thing I wonder about is: would this device be usefull for people? I >mean, it’s going to take me a whole lot of effort doing research and stuff >and I gotta save energy as it is, so I would only stick to my plan if I can >forsee it being usefull to others too. >Thank you for your reply. >Bart >PS: this is no spamming, the thing doesn’t even exist at this point.

Response:

respiration disfunction during the sleep

Question:

I don’t know exactly how the complaint is called in medical terms, (English is not my mother language) but I am suffering from the following : During my sleep, respiration stops often for sometimes 20 seconds, which causes after a short time a low oxygene level in my blood. The complaint is also related with snoring. Under extreme circumstances, this complaint can cause death. Actually, I am sleeping with an artificial respiration machine, which pumps air in my nose under low pressure during my sleep. Is there anybody who knows an alternative treatment, in order to repare the breathing function?

Supplemental magnesium was found to be helpful for infants with sleep apnea. You might try that. –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I don’t know exactly how the complaint is called in medical terms, (English is not my mother language) but I am suffering from the following : During my sleep, respiration stops often for sometimes 20 seconds, which causes after a short time a low oxygene level in my blood. The complaint is also related with snoring. Under extreme circumstances, this complaint can cause death. Actually, I am sleeping with an artificial respiration machine, which pumps air in my nose under low pressure during my sleep. Is there anybody who knows an alternative treatment, in order to repare the breathing function? Thanks a lot. Ronald

Ronald, What you are describing is called sleep apnea. I gather you have already gone to some kind of medical personel as you are using a CPAP machine at night. I’m sure they have also told you that surgery can be an (drastic) option. The only non-invasive thing I know of is losing weight. If you are not overweight, surgery may be your only option. Look for a physician and/or center that specializes in sleep disorders in your area. Lesley Robertson-Laxton BSN

Response:

Hi, I don’t know exactly how the complaint is called in medical terms, (English is not my mother language) but I am suffering from the following : During my sleep, respiration stops often for sometimes 20 seconds, which causes after a short time a low oxygene level in my blood. The complaint is also related with snoring. Under extreme circumstances, this complaint can cause death. Actually, I am sleeping with an artificial respiration machine, which pumps air in my nose under low pressure during my sleep. Is there anybody who knows an alternative treatment, in order to repare the breathing function? Thanks a lot. Ronald

Response:

respiration disfunction during the sleep

Question:

Hi, I don’t know exactly how the complaint is called in medical terms, (English is not my mother language) but I am suffering from the following : During my sleep, respiration stops often for sometimes 20 seconds, which causes after a short time a low oxygene level in my blood. The complaint is also related with snoring. Under extreme circumstances, this complaint can cause death. Actually, I am sleeping with an artificial respiration machine, which pumps air in my nose under low pressure during my sleep. Is there anybody who knows an alternative treatment, in order to repare the breathing function? Thanks a lot. Ronald

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I don’t know exactly how the complaint is called in medical terms, (English is not my mother language) but I am suffering from the following : During my sleep, respiration stops often for sometimes 20 seconds, which causes after a short time a low oxygene level in my blood. The complaint is also related with snoring. Under extreme circumstances, this complaint can cause death. Actually, I am sleeping with an artificial respiration machine, which pumps air in my nose under low pressure during my sleep. Is there anybody who knows an alternative treatment, in order to repare the breathing function? Thanks a lot. Ronald

Ronald, What you are describing is called sleep apnea. I gather you have already gone to some kind of medical personel as you are using a CPAP machine at night. I’m sure they have also told you that surgery can be an (drastic) option. The only non-invasive thing I know of is losing weight. If you are not overweight, surgery may be your only option. Look for a physician and/or center that specializes in sleep disorders in your area. Lesley Robertson-Laxton BSN

Response:

I don’t know exactly how the complaint is called in medical terms, (English is not my mother language) but I am suffering from the following : During my sleep, respiration stops often for sometimes 20 seconds, which causes after a short time a low oxygene level in my blood. The complaint is also related with snoring. Under extreme circumstances, this complaint can cause death. Actually, I am sleeping with an artificial respiration machine, which pumps air in my nose under low pressure during my sleep. Is there anybody who knows an alternative treatment, in order to repare the breathing function?

Supplemental magnesium was found to be helpful for infants with sleep apnea. You might try that. –Tom Tom Matthews The LIFE EXTENSION FOUNDATION – http://www.lef.org – 800-544-4440 A non-profit membership organization dedicated to the extension of the healthy human lifespan through ground breaking research, innovative ideas and practical methods. LIFE EXTENSION MAGAZINE – The ultimate source for new health and medical findings from around the world.

Response:

Anyone had any luck with Kaiser Permanente and treatment of OSA?

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Paul Kemp wrote: > In article <350F7150.4…@columbus.rr.com>, Keith Lamb > <kl…@columbus.rr.com> writes > >BigAl wrote: > >> Secondly, if the only other > >> option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for > >> a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. > > Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to > >exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this > >of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it > >seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that > >humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty > >simple really. > You need to be able to remove exhaled breath from the mask, and hose. > This is why you cannot have a zero exhalation pressure, some pressure is > needed to "wash out" your exhaled breath through the holes in the mask > (or whisper swivel valve!). > > Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit > >from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the > >insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be > >right…I don’t know. > IMHO (I am no doctor, just an apnoea patient) an exhalation pressure of > just 2 cm H2O would not be sufficient to completely remove your exhaled > breath from the mask and hose. Also, as far as I can recall, 4 cm > pressure is the lowest setting on most xPAP machines. > Hang on in there, you will get used to exhaling against the pressure > very quickly. There are many times that people think that their machine > is not giving enough pressure when it is. They have just got used to the > pressure. > As another poster said, wear the mask during the day for an hour or two > to "give your lungs a workout", you will get used to the pressure. > Regards > Paul > — >      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- > :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: > :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: > :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

Paul’s correct.  I’m at such a high pressure that I forgot about the need to wash your exhaled breath out of the mask. — BigAl db-g…@worldnet.att.net  (personal)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Linda Knowles wrote: > Keith Lamb wrote: > > BigAl wrote: > > > Secondly, if the only other > > > option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for > > > a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. > >  Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to > > exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this > > of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it > > seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that > > humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty > > simple really. > >  Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit > > from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the > > insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be > > right…I don’t know. > I would not take the doctor’s word for what your insurance company will > or won’t pay for.  Call them yourself and find out.  I have found many > times that the doctors just guess at what your insurance will pay for. > They can’t possibly be aware of what level of coverage your policy will > cover.  To make a point, our insurance company is paying for the module > that will convert power from a battery plus the cables to hook up my CPAP > during power outages!  The DME company laughed when I called for the part > numbers for those items   I said that I was going to ask that it be > covered under our policy.  Within 2 weeks it was approved and it’s on > order right now.  So even they didn’t know that such things were > possible.

This is an excellent point!!  Everyone’s coverage is individual.  It’s not the doctor’s place to know what is covered, or especially to make his recommendations based on your insurance coverage.  DME coverage varies depending on endorsements and also vary depending (in US) on what state you live in. Lauren

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Keith Lamb wrote: > BigAl wrote: > > Secondly, if the only other > > option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for > > a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. >  Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to > exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this > of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it > seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that > humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty > simple really. >  Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit > from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the > insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be > right…I don’t know.

I would not take the doctor’s word for what your insurance company will or won’t pay for.  Call them yourself and find out.  I have found many times that the doctors just guess at what your insurance will pay for. They can’t possibly be aware of what level of coverage your policy will cover.  To make a point, our insurance company is paying for the module that will convert power from a battery plus the cables to hook up my CPAP during power outages!  The DME company laughed when I called for the part numbers for those items   I said that I was going to ask that it be covered under our policy.  Within 2 weeks it was approved and it’s on order right now.  So even they didn’t know that such things were possible.

Response:

Keith, I started out at a pressure of 5cm. That didn’t help and eventually my pressure ended up at 12cm. CPAP not BiPap. I exhale against 12cm. If you have a ramping machine that will ramp the upper pressure. Believe me you will get used to it. Especially if you want to sleep and it helps. I had the feeling at first that I was exhaling against too much pressure. Now within 15 minutes I hardly even know the pressure is there, and when I wake up I am not even aware of the pressure at all. Sometimes when I remove the mask while lying down I feel as if I have negative pressure on my nose until I rise up. As for your question about the 5/0 pressure, that would require the turbine in the machine to stop completely instantly when you exhale. That is clearly impossible for CPAP or BiPAP. Probably the only way that is possible would be a respirator. I had problems with several masks which gave me the sensation of smothering. After flinging several across the room in my half asleep state I finally discovered that part of the problem was due to a nose problem. I ended up having surgery for that and it helped. If you really have a apnea problem give your BiPAP a chance. It may take a couple of months to get full benefit. Some things require time. Good luck, Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Keith Lamb wrote: > BigAl wrote: > > Secondly, if the only other > > option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for > > a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. >  Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to > exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this > of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it > seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that > humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty > simple really. >  Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit > from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the > insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be > right…I don’t know.

Response:

I was just minding my own business on Wed, 18 Mar 1998 02:01:36 -0500, when Keith Lamb <kl…@columbus.rr.com> up and shattered my reverie: snip > Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to >exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this >of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".

snip The appropriate answer to your question would have been, "You know, I’m not really sure about that.  Leave your address, fax or email and I will find out the answer to that question and get back to you in a few days, okay?" Doug

Response:

The main reason for the exhalation pressure is the same as the reason that asthma patients purse their lips to breathe…  The back pressure keeps the airway open.  The exhalation pressure is the whole reason for the CPAP/BIPAP to begin with…  I found it very uncomfortable initially, but soon got used to it…  I run at a pressure of 7.5 cm of H2O and I had an index of 57 without cpap and 0 with…  It does work…  you might want to try a more comfortable mask, or nasal seals/pillows…  What you may be sensing as difficulty exhaling against the pressure may actually be claustraphobia from the mask…  Try to stick with it…  It’s well worth it… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -BigAl wrote in message <6epqqj$…@bgtnsc02.worldnet.att.net>… >Paul Kemp wrote: >> In article <350F7150.4…@columbus.rr.com>, Keith Lamb >> <kl…@columbus.rr.com> writes >> >BigAl wrote: >> >> Secondly, if the only other >> >> option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for >> >> a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. >> > Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to >> >exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this >> >of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it >> >seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that >> >humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty >> >simple really. >> You need to be able to remove exhaled breath from the mask, and hose. >> This is why you cannot have a zero exhalation pressure, some pressure is >> needed to "wash out" your exhaled breath through the holes in the mask >> (or whisper swivel valve!). >> > Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit >> >from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the >> >insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be >> >right…I don’t know. >> IMHO (I am no doctor, just an apnoea patient) an exhalation pressure of >> just 2 cm H2O would not be sufficient to completely remove your exhaled >> breath from the mask and hose. Also, as far as I can recall, 4 cm >> pressure is the lowest setting on most xPAP machines. >> Hang on in there, you will get used to exhaling against the pressure >> very quickly. There are many times that people think that their machine >> is not giving enough pressure when it is. They have just got used to the >> pressure. >> As another poster said, wear the mask during the day for an hour or two >> to "give your lungs a workout", you will get used to the pressure. >> Regards >> Paul >> — >>      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- >> :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: >> :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: >> :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@: >Paul’s correct.  I’m at such a high pressure that I forgot about the >need to wash your exhaled breath out of the mask. >– >BigAl >db-g…@worldnet.att.net  (personal)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Keith Lamb wrote: > BigAl wrote: > > The major > > reason CPAP fails is non-compliance of the patients, which is usually > > due to poor followup by physicians and DME suppliers. >  Al, can you explain this statement?  I’m certain that non-compliance is > a huge issue.  I couldn’t continue it past the second day due to > intolerable discomfort and nausea and headaches.  I was explained to me > (and I believe it), that this is just part of the treatment that you > have to try to get used to.  I couldn’t tolerate it but perhaps others > can.  It seems simple.  What I want is a better (more tolerable) > treatment for OSA than one of these machines.  The concept of CPAP just > doesn’t seem to be a good idea to me.  I was banking on the fact that > others had said it really improved their lives and made them much *more* > comfortable.  My experience is very different.

There are a number of things involved.  What I was trying to say is that if you, the patient, are having problems both the doctor and the supplier need to follow-up to try and get to the root cause so they can correct the problem.  Your doctor and supplier must be knowledgeable enough to interpret what you tell them in finding a solution.  Have you questioned the doctor about how the pressure was set?  If the pressure is set too low to overcome your obstruction you may be having trouble exhaling because of the OSA and not the CPAP.  I agree with Lauren where she suggested getting the pressure set higher. Note sometimes when they don’t get a good reading during a sleep test, they will pick a low starting pressure just to see if your symptoms go away.   As for exhaling at no pressure, besides the washing out of CO2 there’s another reason.  The air pressure serves as a split to keep your thoat open.  If you remove the pressure completely, it will allow your throat to close and make it harder for the CPAP to reopen your throat on the inhale cycle. As for a better treatment, the only alternatives are invasive.  UPPP has a poor success rate (I had one and still use BiPAP). If BiPAP didn’t work for me I might consider a trache.  I still consider xPAP to be the best option. — BigAl db-g…@worldnet.att.net  (personal)

Response:

BigAl wrote: > Secondly, if the only other > option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for > a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt.

 Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty simple really.  Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be right…I don’t know.

Response:

In article <350F7150.4…@columbus.rr.com>, Keith Lamb <kl…@columbus.rr.com> writes >BigAl wrote: >> Secondly, if the only other >> option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for >> a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. > Perhaps a novice question, but why in the world would you want to >exhale *against* anything?  Why not set a machine to 5/0?  I asked this >of my therapist and she just said "it doesn’t work that way".  Well, it >seems to me that the problem with exhaling against pressure is that >humans weren’t designed to exhale against net positive pressure.  Pretty >simple really.

You need to be able to remove exhaled breath from the mask, and hose. This is why you cannot have a zero exhalation pressure, some pressure is needed to "wash out" your exhaled breath through the holes in the mask (or whisper swivel valve!). > Besides the fact that the doctor feels I could not perceive a benefit >from a setting of, say, 5/2…he made a clear statement that the >insurance company would not consider paying for such a thing.  He may be >right…I don’t know.

IMHO (I am no doctor, just an apnoea patient) an exhalation pressure of just 2 cm H2O would not be sufficient to completely remove your exhaled breath from the mask and hose. Also, as far as I can recall, 4 cm pressure is the lowest setting on most xPAP machines. Hang on in there, you will get used to exhaling against the pressure very quickly. There are many times that people think that their machine is not giving enough pressure when it is. They have just got used to the pressure. As another poster said, wear the mask during the day for an hour or two to "give your lungs a workout", you will get used to the pressure. Regards Paul —      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Keith Lamb wrote: > Well, not so easy.  Today the DME supplier called to say that my doctor > wouldn’t prescribe the Bipap.  He said that my pressure was so low > (5cmH2) that a bipap machine wouldn’t make any difference, that is, > bipap is only useful if the starting pressure is really high. > Basically, he said I would not notice any difference on a bipap > machine.  Can anyone on this group confirm this? > The DME supplier sent out a therapist and said that the machine’s setup > and pressure was perfect. > So, I guess battling the head gear/mask issue isn’t going to be a > problem cause I simply cannot tolerate exhaling against such pressure. > I simply cannot believe anyone can do this at all, let alone get a good > night’s sleep with it.  For > those in the group who can tolerate this, my hats off to ya! > I am returning the machine tomorrow.  My physician’s advice?  "Just live > with it [OSA]".  Back to the drawing board. > – Keith >Dear Keith,

A pressure of 5 is actually very low, and many people (myself included) found it very uncomfortable to breathe when pressure was set that low. It’s actually easier IMHO, to breathe when the pressure is a bit higher, because you don’t feel like you are suffocating.  I felt panicky at first trying to exhale against the air (my setting is 10), but that sensation went away after a week or so.  Now, sometimes I have to put my hand over the exhale port to be sure it’s working, because I can’t feel the air pressure anymore.   It doesn’t work for everyone, but please give it another try.  Ask the doctor to increase the pressure slightly, and see if it feels more comfortable – but make yourself try it for 2 weeks before you give up.   Lauren Ero

Response:

BigAl wrote: > The major > reason CPAP fails is non-compliance of the patients, which is usually > due to poor followup by physicians and DME suppliers.  

 Al, can you explain this statement?  I’m certain that non-compliance is a huge issue.  I couldn’t continue it past the second day due to intolerable discomfort and nausea and headaches.  I was explained to me (and I believe it), that this is just part of the treatment that you have to try to get used to.  I couldn’t tolerate it but perhaps others can.  It seems simple.  What I want is a better (more tolerable) treatment for OSA than one of these machines.  The concept of CPAP just doesn’t seem to be a good idea to me.  I was banking on the fact that others had said it really improved their lives and made them much *more* comfortable.  My experience is very different.

Response:

I have received a Bipap after no luck adjusting to Cpap. I have a great deal of trouble getting to sleep. Noise, cadance of machine, at times I still feel like I am fighting to exhale. Any advise? rev…@rnet.com

Response:

Are the problems you described related to CPAP or Bipap?  I also couldn’t win the struggle with my CPAP machine.  After reporting this to the DME they are trying to get me a BIPAP machine.  I only hope it solves the problem.  Fighting to exhale was not only exhausting, it made me very anxious and nauseated.  My pressure setting is 5cmH2O which they told me was actually quite low…wow, how could anyone breathe against this or some higher setting? Can anyone tell me why fighting to exhale is a good thing?  In other words, why would anyone want a CPAP machine rather than a bipap?  I was told that the switch required physician approval…I’d think exactly the opposite would be the case. I don’t understand all this yet. Even after I solve the exhalation problem I’m still in for a major job to get used to the mask, headgear and tubing.  At this point, I can’t see how anyone could expect you to sleep with all of this stuff…but I guess it does work so I’ll just have to keep trying! – Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -sdm wrote: > I have received a Bipap after no luck adjusting to Cpap. > I have a great deal of trouble getting to sleep. > Noise, cadance of machine, at times I still feel like I am fighting to > exhale. > Any advise? > rev…@rnet.com

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sdm. Some ‘BiPap’ try to make you follow their cadence. Some follow yours. Perhaps you need a different model? The one in my most recent sleep study (Quartet) did not cause me trouble. regards, eric pearson er…@spammersgo.away@mindspring.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Sun, 15 Mar 1998 17:44:21 -0600, "sdm" <rev…@rnet.com> wrote: >I have received a Bipap after no luck adjusting to Cpap. >I have a great deal of trouble getting to sleep. >Noise, cadance of machine, at times I still feel like I am fighting to >exhale. >Any advise? >rev…@rnet.com

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Well, not so easy.  Today the DME supplier called to say that my doctor wouldn’t prescribe the Bipap.  He said that my pressure was so low (5cmH2) that a bipap machine wouldn’t make any difference, that is, bipap is only useful if the starting pressure is really high. Basically, he said I would not notice any difference on a bipap machine.  Can anyone on this group confirm this? The DME supplier sent out a therapist and said that the machine’s setup and pressure was perfect. So, I guess battling the head gear/mask issue isn’t going to be a problem cause I simply cannot tolerate exhaling against such pressure. I simply cannot believe anyone can do this at all, let alone get a good night’s sleep with it.  For those in the group who can tolerate this, my hats off to ya! I am returning the machine tomorrow.  My physician’s advice?  "Just live with it [OSA]".  Back to the drawing board. – Keith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The Somnolent Phantom wrote: >  The answer to your question is actually quite simple. CPAP is a 15 year > old technology. It does work with some people. The *typical* CPAP costs > the *typical* insurance carrier about $1,200.  The *typical*  Bi-PAP > costs about twice that amount. Several insurance carriers/HMO’s are > cheap and/or sadistic enough to require their patients to *fail* on CPAP > before they are even told about the existence of Bi-PAP! Statistically, > about 1/3 of us can not tolerate CPAP. >  It is not about our well being……..It is about the all mighty Yankee > DOLLAR!  :!) > You will do just fine! It may take some time and *tweeking*. PAP is not > always a *Plug and Play* experience for many of us. The secret to > success with any of the *PAP* machines is to get a GOOD experienced > R.T./DME supplier that will work with and for YOU to get everything set > up correctly. >  Don’t just sit and suffer or give up if things don’t work correctly for > you. Contact your doctor and/or DME supplier and let them know what is > going on.

Response:

Keith, 5cm is indeed a very low pressure. Give the machine a go. You might be surprised. Some evening, put the mask on while you are awake, and leave it on for a couple of hours. You will probably find that your body adjusts to the pressure a lot more rapidly and a lot more comfortably than you expected. Of course, you *could* give the machine back and get a trachostomy (hole in the neck). Or you *could* elect to accept a greatly increased risk of heart attack, stroke, and career stagnation due to lack of energy. regards, eric pearson er…@spammersgo.away@mindspring.com On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 20:48:33 -0500, Keith Lamb <kl…@columbus.rr.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Well, not so easy.  Today the DME supplier called to say that my doctor >wouldn’t prescribe the Bipap.  He said that my pressure was so low >(5cmH2) that a bipap machine wouldn’t make any difference, that is, >bipap is only useful if the starting pressure is really high. >Basically, he said I would not notice any difference on a bipap >machine.  Can anyone on this group confirm this? >The DME supplier sent out a therapist and said that the machine’s setup >and pressure was perfect. >So, I guess battling the head gear/mask issue isn’t going to be a >problem cause I simply cannot tolerate exhaling against such pressure. >I simply cannot believe anyone can do this at all, let alone get a good >night’s sleep with it.  For >those in the group who can tolerate this, my hats off to ya! >I am returning the machine tomorrow.  My physician’s advice?  "Just live >with it [OSA]".  Back to the drawing board. >- Keith >The Somnolent Phantom wrote: >>  The answer to your question is actually quite simple. CPAP is a 15 year >> old technology. It does work with some people. The *typical* CPAP costs >> the *typical* insurance carrier about $1,200.  The *typical*  Bi-PAP >> costs about twice that amount. Several insurance carriers/HMO’s are >> cheap and/or sadistic enough to require their patients to *fail* on CPAP >> before they are even told about the existence of Bi-PAP! Statistically, >> about 1/3 of us can not tolerate CPAP. >>  It is not about our well being……..It is about the all mighty Yankee >> DOLLAR!  :!) >> You will do just fine! It may take some time and *tweeking*. PAP is not >> always a *Plug and Play* experience for many of us. The secret to >> success with any of the *PAP* machines is to get a GOOD experienced >> R.T./DME supplier that will work with and for YOU to get everything set >> up correctly. >>  Don’t just sit and suffer or give up if things don’t work correctly for >> you. Contact your doctor and/or DME supplier and let them know what is >> going on.

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In article <350DD671.6…@columbus.rr.com>, – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -  kl…@columbus.rr.com wrote: > Well, not so easy.  Today the DME supplier called to say that my doctor > wouldn’t prescribe the Bipap.  He said that my pressure was so low > (5cmH2) that a bipap machine wouldn’t make any difference, that is, > bipap is only useful if the starting pressure is really high. > Basically, he said I would not notice any difference on a bipap > machine.  Can anyone on this group confirm this? > The DME supplier sent out a therapist and said that the machine’s setup > and pressure was perfect. > So, I guess battling the head gear/mask issue isn’t going to be a > problem cause I simply cannot tolerate exhaling against such pressure. > I simply cannot believe anyone can do this at all, let alone get a good > night’s sleep with it.  For > those in the group who can tolerate this, my hats off to ya! > I am returning the machine tomorrow.  My physician’s advice?  "Just live > with it [OSA]".  Back to the drawing board. > – Keith

I don’t understand — do you have a CPAP but wanted a Bilevel instead?  The doc is not depriving you of the whole kitten kaboodle (sp) is he? There are yet too many unanswered questions.  Are you with an HMO?  What was your diagnosis, RDI and saturation averages?  Did you have upper airway resistance syndrome, or was this one of the many clinics unable to screen for this disease?  Does your health insurance plan brochure specifically mention in the wording the terms CPAP or BIPAP (bilevel device)? I would not trust the titration diagnosis of 5cm. Snoring alone warrants use of a CPAP or bilevel device. I believe your doc is not being straightforward with you about what all is available to you, and I believe your physician is unethical, and dangerously so. Try not to give up yet. Doug —–== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==—– http://www.dejanews.com/   Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading

Response:

Keith Lamb wrote: > Well, not so easy.  Today the DME supplier called to say that my doctor > wouldn’t prescribe the Bipap.  He said that my pressure was so low > (5cmH2) that a bipap machine wouldn’t make any difference, that is, > bipap is only useful if the starting pressure is really high. > Basically, he said I would not notice any difference on a bipap > machine.  Can anyone on this group confirm this? > snipped <

I use BiPAP at a pressure of 20/12.  I get headaches if I exhale at a pressure greater than 14.  From my experience I would have to agree a little bit with your doctor, but he should look for reasons why you can’t exhale against such a low pressure.  Secondly, if the only other option is no option I don’t know why he wouldn’t let you try a BiPAP for a month and set it at a pressure of something like 5/2. It can’t hurt. Just because he hasn’t seen this in his experience is no excuse. YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary) basically everyone’s different.  The major reason CPAP fails is non-compliance of the patients, which is usually due to poor followup by physicians and DME suppliers.  If he won’t let you try a BiPAP, I suggest asking for a second opinion. BigAl db-g…@worldnet.att.net  (personal)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Wed, 25 Feb 1998 21:27:39 GMT, v…@mindspring.com (Jimi) wrote: >I have been getting the complete run-around by these people.  I >finally, after yelling a lot, got them to give me a referal to a sleep >clinic for a full sleep study.  Since then, I have received no help >from them at all.  The doctor at Kaiser just looked at the results, >told me they recommended a CPAP machine, and scooted me out of the >office. He wouldn’t/couldn’t even tell me what was causing the >obstruction, etc.. >I have since been trying with no luck, to get a referal from them to >see a sleep specialist in the Washington, D.C. area.  They just keep >telling me to go buy a CPAP and drop the matter.  Has this happened to >anyone else? >Frustrated, >-jimi

I have had splendid luck on all levels with Kaiser may be it is just a bad doctor

Response:

I have been getting the complete run-around by these people.  I finally, after yelling a lot, got them to give me a referal to a sleep clinic for a full sleep study.  Since then, I have received no help from them at all.  The doctor at Kaiser just looked at the results, told me they recommended a CPAP machine, and scooted me out of the office. He wouldn’t/couldn’t even tell me what was causing the obstruction, etc.. I have since been trying with no luck, to get a referal from them to see a sleep specialist in the Washington, D.C. area.  They just keep telling me to go buy a CPAP and drop the matter.  Has this happened to anyone else? Frustrated, -jimi

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jimi wrote: > I have been getting the complete run-around by these people.  I > finally, after yelling a lot, got them to give me a referal to a sleep > clinic for a full sleep study.  Since then, I have received no help > from them at all.  The doctor at Kaiser just looked at the results, > told me they recommended a CPAP machine, and scooted me out of the > office. He wouldn’t/couldn’t even tell me what was causing the > obstruction, etc.. > I have since been trying with no luck, to get a referal from them to > see a sleep specialist in the Washington, D.C. area.  They just keep > telling me to go buy a CPAP and drop the matter.  Has this happened to > anyone else? > Frustrated, > -jimi

Do you have coverage for durable medical equipment?  And my other thought is that you need to find a new primary care physician – even with the best insurance coverage in the world, a bad doctor can really hurt your health care.  And voice your opinion.  Write letters of your complaints to Kaiser – insist on a response from them.   Good luck, Lauren

Response:

Jimi, I applaud your "yelling" to get your sleep study! Unfortunately, we have to resort to these tactics and be pro-active about our treatment. Your doctor’s reaction to your sleep study seemed to me that he doesn’t have a fundamental understanding of what it meant. So how can he help you if most doctors are ignorant about sleep disorders? Do seek out a sleep specialist. Find an accredited sleep center near you from the listing on the American Sleep Disorders Association’s web site: www.asda.org. Call a center and ask about a sleep specialist. Get support from others and join an AWAKE group. Check out the American Sleep Apnea Association’s web site and e-mail or call them about a group near you. www.nicom..com/~assa/. Keep on fighting for your right to this treatment! Good Luck, Barbara Visit The Sleep Well at http://www-leland.stanford.edu/~dement/

Response:

I suggest you write a letter to the doctor explaining that you left the appointment with a very imperfect understanding of your sleep study results and the diagnosis and treatment they were offering. Request copies of all your records, including the report of the sleep study, and, if available, a hard copy or electronic copy of the actual polysomnographic recording. This may be useful to any other doctor you see and, in addition, is likely to prompt better service from the original provider. Kerrin White Kerrin Leon White, M.D. E-mail: kerri…@ix.netcom.com or WhiteKe…@aol.com URL: http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Spa/4752/index.html A Doctor with Sleep Apnea Reviews Recent Research for Fellow Patients

Response:

Long term effects of Insomnia

Question:

I think Stephen King said it best…"The death certificate never states cause of death as insomnia. It always says suiside."

Response:

I was just minding my own business on Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:45:00 -0800, when Andy <ch…@isomedia.com> up and shattered my reverie: >Death…? >Julian Carranza wrote: >> I just want to know the long term effects of Insomnia. If anyone knows >> about the subject please write to carr3…@prodigy.net. Especially about >> chronic insomnia.

Death is a feature in the extremely rare disease known as Fatal Familial Insomnia, which, judging by the original poster’s ability to craft and post a message to usenet, she likely does not have. The problem with getting fixated on "chronic insomnia" is that it is like getting fixated on neuropathy if you have untreated diabetes. Chronic insomnia, in most cases, is a symptom and not the primary disease, which is often a more fundamental, underlying sleep disorder such as sleep apnea. It would behoove primary care physicians to refer patients automatically to the sleep lab where any complaints regarding sleep are evident. Doug

Response:

Julian, <I just want to know the long term effects of Insomnia. I suggest you write away to the US Dept of Health and Human Services for a report called Wake Up America: A National Sleep Alert, the report of the National Commission on Sleep Disorders Research.   I quote: [I]nsomnia can have devastating effects on careers and personal lives….Consistently restricted and fragmented sleep can lead to pathological sleepiness and potentially dangerous acccidents.  For example, insomniacs have twice as many car accidents as non-insomniacs.  For other afflicted persons, long-standing functional impairment results.  Memory and cognitive dysfunction, poor interpersonal and coping skills, and a long list of comorbid illness are associated consistently with insomnia….  Insomniacs are … more likely to report that they suffer from poor health and that their work is limited by illness. Despite the fact that insomnia is the most common sleep complaint, few physicians know how to diagnose and treat insomnia appropriately…. End quote. If you suffer from insomnia, I suggest you find the closest accredited sleep disorders center (<http://www.asda.org) and make an appointment to talk with a board certified sleep specialist. Best wishes, Sally in Seattle (JSo…@aol.com) Coauthor, with Dr. Ralph Pascualy, of Snoring and Sleep Apnea: Personal and Family Guide to Diagnosis and Treatment, published in 1996 by Demos Vermande, NY.  Available through bookstores, ISBN # 0-939957-82-5.  

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I just want to know the long term effects of Insomnia. If anyone knows about the subject please write to carr3…@prodigy.net. Especially about chronic insomnia.

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Death…? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Julian Carranza wrote: > I just want to know the long term effects of Insomnia. If anyone knows > about the subject please write to carr3…@prodigy.net. Especially about > chronic insomnia.

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