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need info of pro and con of stomach surgery

admin — Wed, 15 Oct 2003 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

My father was a very large man, at times over 400lbs at about 6′3". About 15 years ago, he had the surgery where they insert a donut shaped insert in the stomach, to make a sort of "small" stomach with a smaller opening, before the "main" stomach. Sorry, but without talking to him, that is the best I can describe it. On the positive side, he lost a lot of weight. The surgery forced him to really chew his food, and eat small amounts more often. It just wasn’t physically possible to overeat anymore. If he over did it, it would all come back out. He was down to about 200 lbs within 1 year. He has kept almost all the weight off to this day…but….. On the negative side, he has had increasing problems in the last 3-4 years keeping ANYTHING down. Even water. The small opening into the main stomach seems to close up at times, and won’t allow anything to pass. He has had to go to the hospital a couple times to get re-hydrated intravenously as he has been unable to get even water orally. The stomach simply throws it back up. They have inserted devices and stretched the opening, but so far, the solutions have only been temporary. Certain foods he can no longer eat as well. Gristley meat, bacon, etc. Anything that has can’t be ground down easily with his teeth tends to get blocked up. He has said many times he would do it all over again. He would likely be dead already from being overweight, but just keep in mind that ANYTHING can happen, good or bad. Just my story….. Best of luck to you and yours….. GT

Response:

I have worked with docs for years and I have the utmost respect for the profession. I am not one of those nurses who thinks that docs are evil and that none are as smart as we are. A good doc who puts up a web site to promote his surgical skills will follow certain ethical guidelines. But, even then, the doc wants to sell you something. There is nothing wrong with this. We all pretty much sell ourselves for a living but when was the last time you read a resume that highlighted flaws in a person’s work history rather than accomplishments. On the flip side, there are some horror stories. I do not doubt for a minute their veracity but I do not think that those results are typical. I saw a lightweight documentary on long term weight loss a while ago. They explored three people who lost weight, one of whom did the bypass surgery. It was successful. What impressed me was the intense nutrition counseling before and after the procedure. A psychological exam was also done. The lifestyle changes are enormous even with the help of surgery. Questions to ask the doc: How many of these procedures have you done? What is the rate of complications? What is the rate of death? What kind of pre-surgical care is given? What kind of post-surgical care is offered? Is there a support group of former patients with whom you may visit? What is covered with the cost of surgery? Anesthesia? All meds? Sometimes there are hidden charges. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

Hi Ray, I know 4 people that have had the surgery done. All of them had the gastric bypass version. Anyway, they all had various complications, some minor and some not so minor. One of my close male friends had it done about 1.5 years ago. He is 6′6" and weighed about 400 lbs. He had a complication with the catheter and he is currently impotent from it due to scar tissue. He is considering a lawsuit. He has lost some weight, but not very much. My best friend had it done as well last October. She has been in and out of the hospital about 6 times with pancreatitis, gastritis and horrendous headaches. She’s lost about 120 lbs in 12 months and looks better. However, she didn’t work on her eating habits or go to the gym. She is pretty saggy now. She also eats what she wants, just smaller amounts. I can tell that her stomach is stretching because of the amount of food she can now eat. She thought that this surgery would be a cure all and solve her weight problem permanently…. The two other people that had it done have not had any complications that I know about. How I personally feel is that this surgery is a band-aid and does not address the reasons that cause the weight gain. The surgery has alot of complications, many of the really long term ones aren’t even known yet. The stomach can stretch… I’ve heard of several people that had to have the surgery a 2nd time due to the stomach stretching. Gastric banding may be a safer option. However, the weight loss may be minimal and is much less permanent then bypass. In addition, if the issues causing weight gain are not addressed once the band is removed, then the weight loss will not be permanent. I would suggest trying the HMR diet. This diet can be as effective as stomach surgery w/out the pain and suffering. Also, the cost is generally cheaper then the surgery. www.yourbetterhealth.com for info. There is a link there that has a number you can call for a location in your area. I’ve been on it for 8 weeks now and lost 42 lbs so far. I work out 4-5x a week and feel great. 284/242/199/??? — Email me at: perpleglow(AT)comcast.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My father was a very large man, at times over 400lbs at about 6′3". About 15 years ago, he had the surgery where they insert a donut shaped insert in the stomach, to make a sort of "small" stomach with a smaller opening, before the "main" stomach. Sorry, but without talking to him, that is the best I can describe it. On the positive side, he lost a lot of weight. The surgery forced him to really chew his food, and eat small amounts more often. It just wasn’t physically possible to overeat anymore. If he over did it, it would all come back out. He was down to about 200 lbs within 1 year. He has kept almost all the weight off to this day…but….. On the negative side, he has had increasing problems in the last 3-4 years keeping ANYTHING down. Even water. The small opening into the main stomach seems to close up at times, and won’t allow anything to pass. He has had to go to the hospital a couple times to get re-hydrated intravenously as he has been unable to get even water orally. The stomach simply throws it back up. They have inserted devices and stretched the opening, but so far, the solutions have only been temporary. Certain foods he can no longer eat as well. Gristley meat, bacon, etc. Anything that has can’t be ground down easily with his teeth tends to get blocked up.

My sister had bariatric surgery that went way, way wrong. Her stomach opening shut down with scar tissue, and she, like your dad, GT, could not even keep water down. She eventually had the surgery reversed, as she was dying right before our eyes. That said, I’ve seen 2 people at my school enjoy fabulous success with the same surgery. It’s definitely a huge decision. — Bird Contact me at lindabird — a t — musician dot o r g

Response:

Just the other day there was a TV News article about an alternative to gastric by-pass surgery. The docs insert a small device under the skin near the stomach and attach a wire tot he stomach. The device gives small electrical jolts. While they don’t yet understand why it works, studies are showing that it does reduce appetite. They said that there have been 27 surgeries in the US. Don’t know what it was called, but it might be worth looking into. It’s very reversible and doesn’t have a lot of the bad side effects associated with the by-pass surgery. Sandy K.

Response:

I think somebody needs to stop being the mommy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

Sandy, Are you referring to the "stomach pacemaker?" http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSSAN008/333/7228/370547.html?k=… It’s approved in Europe but not in the US yet.

Response:

My best friend had it done as well last October. She has been in and out of the hospital about 6 times with pancreatitis, gastritis and horrendous headaches. She’s lost about 120 lbs in 12 months and looks better. However, she didn’t work on her eating habits or go to the gym. She is pretty saggy now. She also eats what she wants, just smaller amounts. I can tell that her stomach is stretching because of the amount of food she can now eat. She thought that this surgery would be a cure all and solve her weight problem permanently….

there were 3 ladies at work that had it done. 1 at Curves 1 regained most of her weight over 10 yrs or so. 1 ate wrong afterwards and had terrible problems with bowel obstructions. 1 I just saw after about 6 months and she looks like she has gained at least 30 lbs back The lady from Curves went from 275 lbs to 145 she is back up to 155 but works out and looks good. she is taller than I am by a few inches. If LC hadn’t worked for me this time, I was going to gain enough weight to get a Roue-N-Y procedure. but I’ve been quite successful this way so I dn’t have to think about that anymore. — Lori 220/147/135 LC since 1/17/03 Oct Challenge 150/145 http://community.webshots.com/user/lorismiller – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The two other people that had it done have not had any complications that I know about. How I personally feel is that this surgery is a band-aid and does not address the reasons that cause the weight gain. The surgery has alot of complications, many of the really long term ones aren’t even known yet. The stomach can stretch… I’ve heard of several people that had to have the surgery a 2nd time due to the stomach stretching. Gastric banding may be a safer option. However, the weight loss may be minimal and is much less permanent then bypass. In addition, if the issues causing weight gain are not addressed once the band is removed, then the weight loss will not be permanent. I would suggest trying the HMR diet. This diet can be as effective as stomach surgery w/out the pain and suffering. Also, the cost is generally cheaper then the surgery. www.yourbetterhealth.com for info. There is a link there that has a number you can call for a location in your area. I’ve been on it for 8 weeks now and lost 42 lbs so far. I work out 4-5x a week and feel great. 284/242/199/??? My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

I don’t think you were heavy enough to get ther surgery done… they like to see a BMI of over 37% and over 100 lbs overweight…. — Email me at: perpleglow(AT)comcast.net

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My best friend had it done as well last October. She has been in and out of the hospital about 6 times with pancreatitis, gastritis and horrendous headaches. She’s lost about 120 lbs in 12 months and looks better. However, she didn’t work on her eating habits or go to the gym. She is pretty saggy now. She also eats what she wants, just smaller amounts. I can tell that her stomach is stretching because of the amount of food she can now eat. She thought that this surgery would be a cure all and solve her weight problem permanently…. there were 3 ladies at work that had it done. 1 at Curves 1 regained most of her weight over 10 yrs or so. 1 ate wrong afterwards and had terrible problems with bowel obstructions. 1 I just saw after about 6 months and she looks like she has gained at least 30 lbs back The lady from Curves went from 275 lbs to 145 she is back up to 155 but works out and looks good. she is taller than I am by a few inches. If LC hadn’t worked for me this time, I was going to gain enough weight to get a Roue-N-Y procedure. but I’ve been quite successful this way so I dn’t have to think about that anymore. — Lori 220/147/135 LC since 1/17/03 Oct Challenge 150/145 http://community.webshots.com/user/lorismiller The two other people that had it done have not had any complications that I know about. How I personally feel is that this surgery is a band-aid and does not address the reasons that cause the weight gain. The surgery has alot of complications, many of the really long term ones aren’t even known yet. The stomach can stretch… I’ve heard of several people that had to have the surgery a 2nd time due to the stomach stretching. Gastric banding may be a safer option. However, the weight loss may be minimal and is much less permanent then bypass. In addition, if the issues causing weight gain are not addressed once the band is removed, then the weight loss will not be permanent. I would suggest trying the HMR diet. This diet can be as effective as stomach surgery w/out the pain and suffering. Also, the cost is generally cheaper then the surgery. www.yourbetterhealth.com for info. There is a link there that has a number you can call for a location in your area. I’ve been on it for 8 weeks now and lost 42 lbs so far. I work out 4-5x a week and feel great. 284/242/199/??? My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

There was an interesting news story on the NBC nightly news a few days ago. There is a new procedure being tested and the results appear to be excellent. It consists of surgically implanting a small pace maker like device that delivers small shocks to the stomach. The procedure is minimally invasive, takes about an hour, with quick recovery. Somehow the shocks fool the stomach into feeling full, exactly how is unknown. The procedure is completely reversible.

I had a look at the article that someone else posted a link to. It sounds interesting, and I’d never heard of this before, but I wouldn’t call an average loss of 18% of excess weight in the participants excellent results. We could probably equal that here in asd. janice 233/161/133

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My SIL had gastric bypass about a year ago. She is very short, perhaps 5 feet, and weighed 225. She lost only 30 pounds, has had hernia repair surgery twice now (caused by the stomach surgery), and still manages to eat too much. It is possible to eat very small amounts many times during the day and still take in too many calories. Our cousin had it done a couple of years ago and had great results. She has lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 pounds and looks and feels great. She is also more active and took up regular exercise as she was losing. Melissa My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

Hi, I’m in Lubbock also. Here’s a link to a web page from Covenant Hospital about gastric by-pass: http://www.covenanthealth.org/library/healthguide/IllnessConditions/t… p?HWID=hw252819 One of the local hospitals used to (and may still) have a comprehensive program for the morbidly obese. I just couldn’t find it on the internet. If nephew is also in this area, that’s what I’d try to find for him. Tonia – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

More information would be helpful. How fat is the son, how old etc, has he tried to lose weight the old fashioned way? i My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Chris is approximately 380 at 6 foot. He is about 30 years old. My sister tells me he has sleep apnea and sores on his leg due to being overweight. I know he has tried Atkins, but apparently did not have the will power to stick with it. Even I was a failure at low-fat diets, so I never recommended that path to him. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

I think somebody needs to stop being the mommy. My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

According to my sister, you never stop being a mother. Not having kids, I wouldn’t know. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

Our cousin had it done a couple of years ago and had great results. She has lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 pounds and looks and feels great. She is also more active and took up regular exercise as she was losing.

My opinion is that you STILL have to eat less and exercise more. Why bother messing with the surgery as an intermediate step? For it to be effective you’ve got to make the exact same significant lifestyle changes as you need to do to lose weight without surgery. Wendy

Response:

The diet industry created a myth that you do not need to have willpower to lose weight and to keep it off.

We’ve gone ’round on this issue before, as I recall. I also don’t think you need willpower. I think you need to decide to do it. Once you "cross that abyss" or "make the connection" or have your epiphany it doesn’t take willpower. Willpower is when you’re divided inside yourself. Furthermore, willpower means you’re making yourself do something until some certain point, at which time you will relax your willpower. We know that is how you regain your weight. So willpower is mainly useful in yo-yo dieting. It is completely possible to eat less and exercise more. All you have to do is decide to do it. If you can’t do it, well, my guess is that you haven’t decided to do it yet. I don’t mean to be symplistic – there’s lots to learn about fat loss and how to implement your decision to eat less and exercise more – but you would STILL have to learn all this and do all this after surgery, so we’re right back to my main point: why bother with the surgery. It’s a needless intermediate step. Wendy

Response:

My SIL had gastric bypass about a year ago. She is very short, perhaps 5 feet, and weighed 225. She lost only 30 pounds, has had hernia repair surgery twice now (caused by the stomach surgery), and still manages to eat too much. It is possible to eat very small amounts many times during the day and still take in too many calories. Our cousin had it done a couple of years ago and had great results. She has lost somewhere in the neighborhood of 130 pounds and looks and feels great. She is also more active and took up regular exercise as she was losing. Melissa – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More information would be helpful. How fat is the son, how old etc, has he tried to lose weight the old fashioned way? i My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas Chris is approximately 380 at 6 foot. He is about 30 years old. My sister tells me he has sleep apnea and sores on his leg due to being overweight. I know he has tried Atkins, but apparently did not have the will power to stick with it. Even I was a failure at low-fat diets, so I never recommended that path to him. The sores on his legs are probably related to very poor circulation and sleep apnea is very serious. I hope that whatever doc and anesthesiologist who takes on this challenge is very experienced. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

After reading these threads, I feel compelled to share that not everyone in this world can lose weight by eating less and exercising more. I have had a weight problem since I was 12 years old, which coincided with a sexual molestation. I was one messed up little girl. Yes, I definitely had emotional problems. I used food for comfort. However, as I became older, I truly tried every diet known to mankind, and then some. For a major portion of my adult life, I starved on diets. I stringently consumed 1,000 calories or less, and walked 1 hour daily 4-5 times a week. The results? I gained weight. I did Medi-fast combined with exercise for 30 days. No solid food. Results? 2 pounds lost. It goes on and on and on. Weight Watchers was alway weight gain for me. After an adult lifetime of this, I do not want to hear one more person tell me to eat less and exercise. I have tried many different therapies for my emotion unbalance. I finally found a Christian counselor that taught me new ways to think about the past and put the ghosts to rest once and for all. I did that for a year and a half prior to my surgery. Then I researched the surgery. I went to support groups and listened. This surgery was not a band-aid, not a miracle cure, but a life saver. For the first time in my life I have lost weight. I had already been working on the food issues. Every now and then old stuff creeps up, but I deal with it. For me, this was a life saving decision. So please, do not judge everyone by your own standards. If you have not walked a mile in my shoes, how can you know where I come from? Surgery is not for everyone, but it was for me! Jeano

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Chris is approximately 380 at 6 foot. He is about 30 years old. My sister tells me he has sleep apnea and sores on his leg due to being overweight. I know he has tried Atkins, but apparently did not have the will power to stick with it. Even I was a failure at low-fat diets, so I never recommended that path to him. Well, I think that assuming he has no willpower, it is better to go on the surgery table than to be 380 lbs. Are you sure that he won’t learn how to defeat his surgery and relain weight? Try to write down everything pertinent about your son specifically, rather than rely on average rates. How come he is so fat? Does he have willpower for anything? i He is not my son, he is my nephew. He has always been big, but only obese in adulthood. The last contact I had with him was when he was starting Atkin’s which I do and have had considerable success with. I sent him a couple of emails of encouragement and tried to provide support and set a good example. Now, I hear he is going to have this surgery largely because his father-in-law had it and it was successful. Believe me I am not thrilled to hear this news. My sister tells me he doesn’t have the will power to do what I have done. I have to take her word for it, he is her son. I am very grateful I do not have to resort to such extreme measures to control my eating. My suggestion would be for you to present the pertinent information that you found, but do not give a recommendation. You wil be at fault no matter what happens. i 223/176/180

I intend to send and forward all websites and interesting/informative posts on bariatric surgery to my sister, her husband, and my nephew until they tell me to stop or he has his surgery. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – More information would be helpful. How fat is the son, how old etc, has he tried to lose weight the old fashioned way? i My sister is thinking of paying for her son to have stomach surgery to lose weight. He is an adult with children. I am telling her to get both sides of the debate, but she feels the doctor’s site is enough information. I would appreciate any feedback or websites that would help me give her more information. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas Chris is approximately 380 at 6 foot. He is about 30 years old. My sister tells me he has sleep apnea and sores on his leg due to being overweight. I know he has tried Atkins, but apparently did not have the will power to stick with it. Even I was a failure at low-fat diets, so I never recommended that path to him. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Has he been receiving proper treatment for his sleep apnea. Sleep apnea can make it very difficult to lose weight. Look up the newsgroup alt.support.sleep-disorders — David Chamberlain – ASAPM Moderator | Support for anxiety or panic disorders. Check us out! | | alt.support.anxiety-panic.moderated http://stump.algebra.com/~asapm | I’d rather die living, then live dying.

Response:

Wendy, you posted numerous messages about how you were so upset that your kids could eat giant sundaes at a movie theater (or some such) and you could not etc. And how you were tired of being on a diet while others were eating recreationally. You did not eat the sundae and you wanted the world to know just how hard it was. Now you are suggesting that you never use willpower… I think something is fishy here!

You missed the point. The entire thread was about facing the hidden costs of losing fat: looking them in the eye and identifying them so they don’t undermine me. I did not feel tempted to eat the ice cream. In fact, it didn’t occur to me. No, I felt regret that this choice, the choice to care about my looks, meant that eating ice cream sundaes couldn’t be a form of entertainment for me anymore. My decision has resulted in the loss of a part of me: the unrestrained eater. Fact is, I wouldn’t have enjoyed if I ate it: I would have been thinking about the costs of eating it the whole time! My decision means severely limiting recreational foods just for recreation. And that is what I did on that occasion (and many, many others). But it wasn’t willpower, it was a natural consequence of my decision. Today I took my daughter to a fine chocolate store for a special occasion of hers. I let her pick out a 1/2 pound of chocolate. I had a single piece of dark chocolate covered ginger. Yes, it was for recreation. But it was a very modest amount of calories for a very large amount of recreation. (Yum!) I didn’t use willpower to not buy everything in the store, I used the circumstances of my life. I don’t want to be fat. Eating a pound of chocolate would (through amazing fat-lady mechanics) put five pounds back on my hips. Therefore I don’t choose to do it. I also didn’t choose to do it because I don’t have enough money to buy the whole place out. I didn’t use willpower to resist putting it all my credit card, now did I? It was just a logical way of acting. Wendy

Response:

Wendy, willpower comes when, say, you are tired but need to exercise.

I don’t exercise then, I sleep. And plan to get enough sleep so I can exercise another time. Or when you are hungry and want a pack of pringles. etc.

When I’m hungry I want to eat. Because I am trying to feed my body an appropriate amount of calories I don’t choose pringles. If I were in a situation where pringles were the only option I would eat the pringles and then try to get into a better situation. One poor choice will not sidestep my weight loss. One bad day will not sidestep my weight loss. I want to lose fat, I know how to lose fat, I’m losing fat. (Slowly, lately. If I cared to speed it up I could do that, too.) Willpower is a bullying technique you use on yourself. I don’t have to bully myself because I’m on board with my plans. Wendy

Response:

He is not my son, he is my nephew. He has always been big, but only obese in adulthood. The last contact I had with him was when he was starting Atkin’s which I do and have had considerable success with. I sent him a couple of emails of encouragement and tried to provide support and set a good example. Now, I hear he is going to have this surgery largely because his father-in-law had it and it was successful. Believe me I am not thrilled to hear this news. My sister tells me he doesn’t have the will power to do what I have done. I have to take her word for it, he is her son. I am very grateful I do not have to resort to such extreme measures to control my eating. Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

The sores on his legs are probably related to very poor circulation and sleep apnea is very serious. I hope that whatever doc and anesthesiologist who takes on this challenge is very experienced. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ray Wesley Kinserlow Jr. Lubbock, Texas

Response:

Apnea in children

admin — Wed, 09 Jan 2002 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

I just rememberd……she’s also had her tonsils removed…….

Response:

On Wed, 9 Jan 2002 20:40:45 +1100, "Tal" wrote: >I have a 5 year old niece who is really low on energy and tired all the >time. >Anyway, i’m wondering if anyone knows some good advice in getting her mother >to get her tested…..and any information that would be valuable, things >like….symptoms of apnea specifically in children…

In children, it’s not infrequently enlarged tonsils. When I was a kid, the reason to get rid of tonsils were chronic infections. (I got every antibiotic they had in 1960-1961 and never quite got over it… my doctors were coming to the conclusion that it was going to be troublesome. I was quite happy to get rid of the things.) Nowadays, sleep apnea is the #1 cause. I had a co-worker, and her son had his tonsils removed for just that. (They were big enough that it was obviously a problem, and when they got rid fo them, he was markedly improved.)

Response:

I’ve read that in children, sleep apnea can have the paradoxical effect of causing more hyperactive behavior. But I’m do not know what the consensus is among researchers. My impression is that there is quite a bit of research going on about sleep disorders and children. You might want to check the following web sites: 1. The American Sleep Disorders Association (http://www.adsa.org). They sell a video and brochures that address your concern. 2. The American Sleep Apnea Association (http://www.sleepapnea.org/child.html). Here is a pretty direct answer to your question. Richard Schultz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Tal" wrote in message news:3c3bff53@dnews.tpgi.com.au… > I have a 5 year old niece who is really low on energy and tired all the > time. Her diet is good and she has plenty of stimulation and a pretty > "normal" childhood and is a thin child. Considering the possible genetic > factor in apnea, i’m wondering if this may be her problem. I kind of hope > it is, because it means there’s hope for her to lead a normal life. I feel > so sad when i see such a beautiful young child with no energy to run around > and play like she should be able to. When she does run around, ti’s only in > short bursts… not like your average kid who seems to have infinate energy. > Anyway, i’m wondering if anyone knows some good advice in getting her mother > to get her tested…..and any information that would be valuable, things > like….symptoms of apnea specifically in children…how to prepare a child > for a sleep study and that kind of thing. > Thanks in advance > Beth in AUstralia

Response:

I have a 5 year old niece who is really low on energy and tired all the time. Her diet is good and she has plenty of stimulation and a pretty "normal" childhood and is a thin child. Considering the possible genetic factor in apnea, i’m wondering if this may be her problem. I kind of hope it is, because it means there’s hope for her to lead a normal life. I feel so sad when i see such a beautiful young child with no energy to run around and play like she should be able to. When she does run around, ti’s only in short bursts… not like your average kid who seems to have infinate energy. Anyway, i’m wondering if anyone knows some good advice in getting her mother to get her tested…..and any information that would be valuable, things like….symptoms of apnea specifically in children…how to prepare a child for a sleep study and that kind of thing. Thanks in advance Beth in AUstralia

Response:

My bite is shifting

admin — Sun, 06 May 2001 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

"Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message news:9dfkqk02cbi@drn.newsguy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article > on Thu, 10 May 2001 > 19:24:38 GMT, where "Sharon" said: > >"Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message > >news:9dd78o014s1@drn.newsguy.com… > >> Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article > >> <> > >> They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and > >really > >> didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to > >enter an > >> exit only air (save the air). ;-) > >> -dave > >Dave, > >You drink entirely too much coffee. > No I don’t. Like Garfield would say: I drink just the right amount. hehehe > >I didn’t like the idea of the pads going in my nose either, sounded gross. > >But it really isn’t. I’m glad I overcome my aversion to them. > I’ve looked at them several times. Even when a couple speakers the AWAKE > meetings brought them in. Don’t like the looks, gonna avoid ‘em. Kinda like > that green stuff mom used to put on my plate. hehe … had to eat the stuff > back then, now I pick and choose. ROFLMAO as I have flashbacks of Daddy Bush > and veggies, what was it, cauliflower? Broccoli? > -dave > Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) > http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ > Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! > Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Broccoli…… There really isn’t anything nasty about the nose pads. They are so easy to clean..I do "do that every day", not like the mask. So in reality it is more sanitary, unless you wash your mask every day too. Now, go eat your brussel sprouts and behave. Sharon

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article on Fri, 11 May 2001 15:17:24 -0400, where Tom said: >Dave J. (Scoop0901) wrote: >>>Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.) >> (Dumping my share of broccoli from the serving bowl onto Tom’s plate.) >Hold on there, Bucko. Is this _fresh_ broccoli? Carefully steamed >until just tender? You didn’t put _cheese_ on it, did you?

Fresh? I dunno. I think it is, but it’s all green. Another reason for me not to eat it. Mom always told me when food was green to pitch it. LOL Did I put cheese on it? Not a chance! I don’t fix other folks’ plates … my children are a little too old now (thank God!), so I gave up that pastime. hehe >>Hope you’re hungry, Tom! ;-) >Why yes, and there’s some fresh broccoli in the refrigerator. I’ll >have some for supper, thanks for the reminder.

Hhhmmmm … welcome, I think. ;-) -dave Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

*BobGootee wrote: >> Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.) > ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ >Yuk! I won’t let my wife cook these when I’m home. And you wanted to >meet for lunch?

So the House Of Broccoli’s off the list? I still think a get-together would be fun, but Gary was the only one who seemed interested and I think he’s left the group. Is anybody else in or around Oakland county Michigan? Tom

Response:

Dave J. (Scoop0901) wrote: >>Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.) > (Dumping my share of broccoli from the serving bowl onto Tom’s plate.)

Hold on there, Bucko. Is this _fresh_ broccoli? Carefully steamed until just tender? You didn’t put _cheese_ on it, did you? >Hope you’re hungry, Tom! ;-)

Why yes, and there’s some fresh broccoli in the refrigerator. I’ll have some for supper, thanks for the reminder. Tom

Response:

Lori Siska wrote: >Can someone e-mail me privately (to save bandwidth) and >explain to me what "pillows" looks like.

Sorry, nasal pillows. They’re small silicon devices that deliver the air directly to your nostrils, here’s the only picture I could find of the actual pillows, http://shop.store.yahoo.com/noahsarkhomecare/nasalpillows1.html They need to be held in place by special headgear, the two most popular units are the Mallinckrodt Breeze (which I use) and the CONJO custom headgear. http://www.mallinckrodt.com/respiratory/productcatalog/product.asp?id… http://www.cpapman.com/customhe.htm (Posted public because you’re probably not the only person who’s wondering.) Tom

Response:

"Sharon" wrote: >There really isn’t anything nasty about the nose pads. They are so easy to >clean..I do "do that every day", not like the mask. So in reality it is >more sanitary, unless you wash your mask every day too.

That’s one of the reasons I wish everybody could start with pillows, they’re so hassle free. Cleaning is just a matter of popping the pillows out of the shell and dumping them into a solution of baby shampoo and water. A short soak, and they’re ready to go again. Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.) – Sick of Spam? Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org

Response:

"Tom Devlin" wrote in message

news:ohrnfts9ob7j621m83c326cr83pt0gajsq@4ax.com… > "Sharon" wrote: > >There really isn’t anything nasty about the nose pads. They are so easy to > >clean..I do "do that every day", not like the mask. So in reality it is > >more sanitary, unless you wash your mask every day too. > That’s one of the reasons I wish everybody could start with pillows, > they’re so hassle free. Cleaning is just a matter of popping the > pillows out of the shell and dumping them into a solution of baby > shampoo and water. A short soak, and they’re ready to go again. > Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.) > – > Sick of Spam? Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org

Me too!!!!!

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article on Fri, 11 May 2001 04:29:16 GMT, where "Sharon" said: >Broccoli……

I knew it was one of those. >There really isn’t anything nasty about the nose pads. They are so easy to >clean..I do "do that every day", not like the mask. So in reality it is >more sanitary, unless you wash your mask every day too. >Now, go eat your brussel sprouts and behave.

My mask is easy to clean. I dunk it in the bucket of Control-3 while I shower and toss it in the sink to rinse while I shave. Do it once a week unless I have a head cold or allergies are acting up, then I do it more often. Brussel sprouts are the little white tree thingies, right? Those I will eat. With cheese sauce. LOL When’s dinner, Mom? ;-) -dave Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article on Fri, 11 May 2001 05:28:19 GMT, where "Patrick said: >Dave, >In the few years I have been on this group it seems most people like the >nasal pillows best. I know one gal who use to be on the group that liked a >mask, darn cannot remember the name which I hated. People who have tried >several masks seem to like the pillows best.

Yeah, I’ve seen that over the past 17 or 18 months. I took a great liking to the Respironics Simplicity, as it’s the only mask I ever found that could hold a seal at my pressures (26/18). As far as the pillows, I think something drastic might have to change with the mask for me to consider them, but again, that’s just personal preference. ;-) >As far as long term use she did not say and unfortunately I did not ask >where she got the info but I will ask one of the sleep docs next time I see >one if they know.

Let me know what you find out. If nothing else, I can poke around and check with my contacts if you don’t turn anything up. >Also what type of masks might be important, pressure setting too. >What kind of mask do you use Dave? I go on comfort not looks but then I am >married and some of the young single folks don’t even like the idea of cpap >for future dating partners. But then as important as this is to health >hopefully education will come.

Exactly. But the really funny thing I found is when I was speaking with a Respironics tech on the phone one day, and a Respironics rep in person on numerous occasions. The Simplicity, Respironics says, will work up to a pressure of about 18 cm/H2O. They can’t believe it seals and maintains a seal all night long at my pressures. LOL I don’t go for looks of the mask. Heck, who cares? I’m sleeping when I have it on. Besides, there isn’t much more that I could do to my looks to make me any uglier. When it comes to looks, the easiest way to describe myself is saying I’m uglier than sin and dirt combined. Maybe sin and sin combined is uglier. -dave – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message >news:9dd78o014s1@drn.newsguy.com… >> Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article >> on Thu, 10 May 2001 >04:25:03 >> GMT, where "Patrick said: >> >How long have you been using cpap? >> >I saw a sleep doctor today who told me that there is now information that >> >long term wearing of masks is causing some problems with the bone >structure. >> What constitutes "long term" use, according to that info, Patrick? >> >I use the breeze so it is more on my nose than a mask and most people >prefer >> >nasal pillows over masks. >> They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and >really >> didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to >enter an >> exit only air (save the air). ;-) >> -dave >> Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) >> http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ >> Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! >> Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article on Fri, 11 May 2001 09:59:46 -0400, where Tom said: >Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.)

(Dumping my share of broccoli from the serving bowl onto Tom’s plate.) Hope you’re hungry, Tom! ;-) -dave Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

Tom Devlin wrote: > Tom (who likes brussels sprouts _and_ broccoli.)

^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^ Yuk! I won’t let my wife cook these when I’m home. And you wanted to meet for lunch? — Bob, who don’t like most green stuff (except cash

Response:

Patrick Richards wrote: > How long have you been using cpap? > I saw a sleep doctor today who told me that there is now information that > long term wearing of masks is causing some problems with the bone >structure.

I’ve been using a nasal mask for the last 6 years (5/w Respironics 1/w contour deluxe) and I swear my nose is sinking into my head at the top of it. I never wore my mask tight. I wear glasses so you don’t notice it with them on, but when I take them off I have that "cave man" look. Other people have posted this here before. — Bob Visit my information & link page at http://twilight.webbernet.net/~gooteebob/index_html.htm news.newusers.questions Moderation Team Worker news:news.newusers.questions

Response:

Dave, In the few years I have been on this group it seems most people like the nasal pillows best. I know one gal who use to be on the group that liked a mask, darn cannot remember the name which I hated. People who have tried several masks seem to like the pillows best. As far as long term use she did not say and unfortunately I did not ask where she got the info but I will ask one of the sleep docs next time I see one if they know. Also what type of masks might be important, pressure setting too. What kind of mask do you use Dave? I go on comfort not looks but then I am married and some of the young single folks don’t even like the idea of cpap for future dating partners. But then as important as this is to health hopefully education will come. "Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message news:9dd78o014s1@drn.newsguy.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article > on Thu, 10 May 2001 04:25:03 > GMT, where "Patrick said: > >How long have you been using cpap? > >I saw a sleep doctor today who told me that there is now information that > >long term wearing of masks is causing some problems with the bone structure. > What constitutes "long term" use, according to that info, Patrick? > >I use the breeze so it is more on my nose than a mask and most people prefer > >nasal pillows over masks. > They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and really > didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to enter an > exit only air (save the air). ;-) > -dave > Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) > http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ > Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! > Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

You could check with a maxifacial doctor who is a dental that deals with jaw problems. "Susan Wachob" wrote in message

news:3AFACA6B.5B9C0DC7@swachob.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi- > My bite has shifted big time- but not in the way yours has! > I used a variety of other masks but shifted to the Breeze about a year > ago. It was terrific (and still really is) but when the pressure also > had to be raised, the air pushed my tongue up out of my throat more and > my tongue began pushing on the back of my upper teeth. That created both > pain around the roots of my upper front teeth and also the pressure of > my tongue caused my front teeth to move out and created a space between > my front teeth. > So… I now have an active retainer to push my front teeth back where > they are supposed to be. (My partner says I look like a 12 year old!) It > should only take about 6 weeks to move them back- (thank god I insisted > it be dealt with early because I’m in pain and can’t eat!!!!) > After the spaces are reduced, I then have to wear a night guard (for the > rest of my life?!?) to spread the pressure of my tongue over all of my > teeth instead of just the front ones. The idea is that both the pain and > the movement should disappear because there won’t be enough on any one > tooth to cause difficulties. > Fortunately, my dental insurance is covering the orthodontia and I > finally won the battle with my health insurance to cover the night guard > because it’s related to pain from a medical condition (they pay for the > CPAP and everything else related to the OSA except the mask). > At least that’s great news! > Does this strategy make sense? Can’t think of any other way to deal with > the tongue thrusting since according to my orthodontist, my mouth > doesn’t have room for my too-big tongue and I’m not about to have my > tongue reduced (Do they even do such a thing?!) > I ask if this makes sense because my sleep doc (who I no longer see- she > was awful), the orthodontist and the dentist all seem clueless as to how > to handle this and I came up with this strategy. > Thanks in advance for any feedback- > Susan

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article <3AFB360B.97FAF…@home.com> on Fri, 11 May 2001 00:47:59 GMT, where Lori said: >Can someone e-mail me privately (to save bandwidth) and >explain to me what "pillows" looks like. >Thanks >Lori

Lori: The idea here is not to email, but communicate via this board, for the support of people who may "lurk" in the shadows with questions but not speak publicly. You can find pictures of the Adam’s Circuit setup here: http://www.cpapman.com/customhe.htm -dave Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

Can someone e-mail me privately (to save bandwidth) and explain to me what "pillows" looks like. Thanks Lori

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article on Thu, 10 May 2001 19:24:38 GMT, where "Sharon" said: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message >news:9dd78o014s1@drn.newsguy.com… >> Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article >> <> >> They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and >really >> didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to >enter an >> exit only air (save the air). ;-) >> -dave >Dave, >You drink entirely too much coffee.

No I don’t. Like Garfield would say: I drink just the right amount. hehehe >I didn’t like the idea of the pads going in my nose either, sounded gross. >But it really isn’t. I’m glad I overcome my aversion to them.

I’ve looked at them several times. Even when a couple speakers the AWAKE meetings brought them in. Don’t like the looks, gonna avoid ‘em. Kinda like that green stuff mom used to put on my plate. hehe … had to eat the stuff back then, now I pick and choose. ROFLMAO as I have flashbacks of Daddy Bush and veggies, what was it, cauliflower? Broccoli? -dave Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

Dave J. (Scoop0901) wrote: >>I use the breeze so it is more on my nose than a mask and most people prefer >>nasal pillows over masks. >They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and really >didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to enter an >exit only air (save the air). ;-)

I’d go along with Patrick. I spent quite a bit of time reading mask reports on Deja after I was diagnosed and it seemed like most folks who’d stuck with CPAP had eventually gone to pillows. Pillows aren’t a universal solution, as your experience shows, but I sure wish that everyone had a chance to try them. Tom – Sick of Spam? Join CAUCE. http://www.cauce.org

Response:

Hi- My bite has shifted big time- but not in the way yours has! I used a variety of other masks but shifted to the Breeze about a year ago. It was terrific (and still really is) but when the pressure also had to be raised, the air pushed my tongue up out of my throat more and my tongue began pushing on the back of my upper teeth. That created both pain around the roots of my upper front teeth and also the pressure of my tongue caused my front teeth to move out and created a space between my front teeth. So… I now have an active retainer to push my front teeth back where they are supposed to be. (My partner says I look like a 12 year old!) It should only take about 6 weeks to move them back- (thank god I insisted it be dealt with early because I’m in pain and can’t eat!!!!) After the spaces are reduced, I then have to wear a night guard (for the rest of my life?!?) to spread the pressure of my tongue over all of my teeth instead of just the front ones. The idea is that both the pain and the movement should disappear because there won’t be enough on any one tooth to cause difficulties. Fortunately, my dental insurance is covering the orthodontia and I finally won the battle with my health insurance to cover the night guard because it’s related to pain from a medical condition (they pay for the CPAP and everything else related to the OSA except the mask). At least that’s great news! Does this strategy make sense? Can’t think of any other way to deal with the tongue thrusting since according to my orthodontist, my mouth doesn’t have room for my too-big tongue and I’m not about to have my tongue reduced (Do they even do such a thing?!) I ask if this makes sense because my sleep doc (who I no longer see- she was awful), the orthodontist and the dentist all seem clueless as to how to handle this and I came up with this strategy. Thanks in advance for any feedback- Susan

Response:

"Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message news:9dd78o014s1@drn.newsguy.com… > Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article > <> > They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and really > didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to enter an > exit only air (save the air). ;-) > -dave

Dave, You drink entirely too much coffee. I didn’t like the idea of the pads going in my nose either, sounded gross. But it really isn’t. I’m glad I overcome my aversion to them. Sharon

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Sharon wrote: > "Dave J. (Scoop0901)" wrote in message > news:9dd78o014s1@drn.newsguy.com… > > Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article > > <> > > They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and > really > > didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to > enter an > > exit only air (save the air). ;-) > > -dave > Dave, > You drink entirely too much coffee. > I didn’t like the idea of the pads going in my nose either, sounded gross. > But it really isn’t. I’m glad I overcome my aversion to them. > Sharon

I tried them at the DME in the beginning, along with the Contour Deluxe and a couple other masks. There was something, difficult to describe, that I didn’t like about the pillows. They made me feel uneasy. However, since everything was new then, I plan on trying them again soon.

Response:

Scoop0901 finished his coffee while reading article on Thu, 10 May 2001 04:25:03 GMT, where "Patrick said: >How long have you been using cpap? >I saw a sleep doctor today who told me that there is now information that >long term wearing of masks is causing some problems with the bone structure.

What constitutes "long term" use, according to that info, Patrick? >I use the breeze so it is more on my nose than a mask and most people prefer >nasal pillows over masks.

They do? The very looks turned me off to them, but I tried them once and really didn’t like them. I think it’s just an aversion to anything trying to enter an exit only air (save the air). ;-) -dave Dave Jackson (Scoop0901) http://www.scoop0901.net/AWAKE/ Read the A.W.A.K.E. in Philly Sleep Apnea Support Group site today! Information is there on **many** topics, as well as sleep disorders.

Response:

Honestly I don’t think I wear my mask too tight (the one time I did I woke up with a lower lip 5 times its normal size) but every morning my bite is slightly off. Throughout the day it goes back to normal but it’s very unnerving when I wake up. My teeth don’t -look- any different, but I can definitely notice the difference when I bite down. Anyone else have this happen? -Dill (Horizon LT)

Response:

I have – I can feel the back of my filling in my top teeth when I bite down and I don’t wear my mask that tight. I thought I was the only one. Incidently, I have tried loosening the top and side straps and I still wake up in the morning with a red line that is really obvious. What am I doing wrong? Lori

Response:

How long have you been using cpap? I saw a sleep doctor today who told me that there is now information that long term wearing of masks is causing some problems with the bone structure. I use the breeze so it is more on my nose than a mask and most people prefer nasal pillows over masks. "Dilweegie" wrote in message

news:dilweegie-7B53A3.19003006052001@news.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Honestly I don’t think I wear my mask too tight (the one time I did I > woke up with a lower lip 5 times its normal size) but every morning my > bite is slightly off. Throughout the day it goes back to normal but > it’s very unnerving when I wake up. > My teeth don’t -look- any different, but I can definitely notice the > difference when I bite down. > Anyone else have this happen? > -Dill > (Horizon LT)

Response:

Ottawa-Hull sleep/wake disorders meeting

admin — Thu, 02 Nov 2000 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

A 1-800 is provided for anyone to verify with our national office that this is a valid posting. Reginald, you need to learn about nettiquette. You treat to advice the FBI is not likely to scare anyone. Carlos On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:52:22 +0000, Reginald Bonerman – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text - wrote: >On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:38:18 GMT, cwoolcott.nos…@home.com (Carlos >Woolcott) wrote: >>Sleep/wake disorders meeting. >>On Tuesday November 28 >>Clinton Marquardt, M.A., R.PSG.T., >>will speak on >>Children and Seniors Sleep Disorders at 7:30 pm >>McNabb Community Centre >>180 Percy (near Gladstone) >>Plus Self-help Networking at 8:45 pm >>Free. Information 800-387-9253 >>*************************************** >>delete "nospam" for e-mail reply >>*************************************** >Don’t attend this spammers meeting. You don’t know anything about him. >I’m informing the FBI about his activities.

*************************************** delete "nospam" for e-mail reply ***************************************

Response:

On Tue, 07 Nov 2000 11:52:34 GMT, cwoolcott.nos…@home.com (Carlos Woolcott) wrote: >A 1-800 is provided for anyone to verify with our national office that >this is a valid posting. >Reginald, you need to learn about nettiquette. You treat to advice the >FBI is not likely to scare anyone. >Carlos

Well, there’s just no fucking with you, is there? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Fri, 03 Nov 2000 18:52:22 +0000, Reginald Bonerman > wrote: >>On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:38:18 GMT, cwoolcott.nos…@home.com (Carlos >>Woolcott) wrote: >>>Sleep/wake disorders meeting. >>>On Tuesday November 28 >>>Clinton Marquardt, M.A., R.PSG.T., >>>will speak on >>>Children and Seniors Sleep Disorders at 7:30 pm >>>McNabb Community Centre >>>180 Percy (near Gladstone) >>>Plus Self-help Networking at 8:45 pm >>>Free. Information 800-387-9253 >>>*************************************** >>>delete "nospam" for e-mail reply >>>*************************************** >>Don’t attend this spammers meeting. You don’t know anything about him. >>I’m informing the FBI about his activities. >*************************************** >delete "nospam" for e-mail reply >***************************************

Response:

Sleep/wake disorders meeting. On Tuesday November 28 Clinton Marquardt, M.A., R.PSG.T., will speak on Children and Seniors Sleep Disorders at 7:30 pm McNabb Community Centre 180 Percy (near Gladstone) Plus Self-help Networking at 8:45 pm Free. Information 800-387-9253 *************************************** delete "nospam" for e-mail reply ***************************************

Response:

On Thu, 02 Nov 2000 18:38:18 GMT, cwoolcott.nos…@home.com (Carlos – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Woolcott) wrote: >Sleep/wake disorders meeting. >On Tuesday November 28 >Clinton Marquardt, M.A., R.PSG.T., >will speak on >Children and Seniors Sleep Disorders at 7:30 pm >McNabb Community Centre >180 Percy (near Gladstone) >Plus Self-help Networking at 8:45 pm >Free. Information 800-387-9253 >*************************************** >delete "nospam" for e-mail reply >***************************************

Don’t attend this spammers meeting. You don’t know anything about him. I’m informing the FBI about his activities.

Response:

Homeopathic Seminar for ADD!!!

admin — Tue, 27 Jul 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Won’t it be more effective if I pay less? — #include

Response:

John P- Interesting article you found there…however it is misleading. Obviously you know little about homeopathy. Your artilce writes: Homeopathy is a placebo… There are several aspects of homeopathy that make this impossible. If homeopathy is simply placebo(…I think I will get better, therefore I will…) then it is impossible that animals could be successfully treated with homeopathic remedies.

No it is not impossible. After all, a *human* is making a subjective decision about whether the animal is better. Animals, like humans, will recover most of the time from most problems, without any intervention, and even in spite of it. The tests done on animals have never been double-blind. The animal is given a homeopathic preparation, and the owner reports that the animal gets better. Sorry, but not only is that not proof, it’s not even evidence. Whatever homeopathy is, it is not a placebo.

Thereby demonstrating that you haven’t a clue as to what the placebo effect is. — #include

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – John P- Interesting article you found there…however it is misleading. Obviously you know little about homeopathy. Your artilce writes: Homeopathy is a placebo… There are several aspects of homeopathy that make this impossible. If homeopathy is simply placebo(…I think I will get better, therefore I will…) then it is impossible that animals could be successfully treated with homeopathic remedies. However, I have seen first hand, countless cases of animals recovering from disease with the use of homeopathy. Cattle, cats, dogs, and horses are treated with homeopathic remedies all the time. And they have terrific and miraculous reactions to the remedies! But remember, animals can’t "believe that they will get well." And so homeopathy cannot be placebo!

Exactly as Kevin said. The animals owner thinks that the treatment is doing something, so their subjective assessment of the animals condition is tainted by this belief. Also, the animal is usually going to get better eventually anyway regardless of homeopathy. Secondly, the dilution issue. Yes, homeopathy is based upon tiny amounts of substances. And the basic premise is that "what can cause a disease/symptom in a healthy person, can treat an ill person that has those symptoms, if used in tiny amounts. Very tiny amounts. In fact, at these dilutions, there are 0 MOLECULES of the original substance. But what science has yet to discover (and they will soon)

Well gee, science hasn’t yet discovered that the Easter Bunny really exists either! is that water itself carries the impression, or memory of the original substance.

ROFLMAO! This is the funniest part about homeopathy. Somebody pointed out ages ago that these substances were so diluted that there is, as you say, 0 molecules of the active ingredients left in the solution! So they invented this garbage about the solution ‘remembering’ the ingredient. Oh well, I guess that it was the best excuse they could come up with after having been proven that they were full of shit! This is cutting edge science. The dilution of a substance in perfectly pure water actually makes the effects stronger!

Actually it’s cutting edge science fiction. Real science shows the opposite to be true. Ie: the dose-response relationship, where the stronger the dose, the stronger the effect. Thirdly, until you have witnessed the power and effectiveness of homeopathy, there is nothing I can say to make you change your mind. I have experienced first hand these effects- myself, my family, friends, and complete strangers. Whatever homeopathy is, it is not a placebo.

What is it then? Magic???? -Todd

Gee Todd, do you really believe this garbage??? Oh, by the way, I’ve got some really good swampland for sale. Never gets flooded. Interested?

Response:

Secondly, the dilution issue. Yes, homeopathy is based upon tiny amounts of substances. And the basic premise is that "what can cause a disease/symptom in a healthy person, can treat an ill person that has those symptoms, if used in tiny amounts. Very tiny amounts. In fact, at these dilutions, there are 0 MOLECULES of the original substance. But what science has yet to discover (and they will soon) is that water itself carries the impression, or memory of the original substance. This is cutting edge science. The dilution of a substance in perfectly pure water actually makes the effects stronger!

You mean that that the water in MY bloodstream, right now, REMEMBERS that just a short time ago it was cooling a nuclear reactor? Or that it remembers that even more recently it was passing through the kidneys of a goat? Perhaps you mean that it remembers the e. coli that it carried before the City added chlorine? Given the number of things that that water has in its scrapbook, just what ritual do you do to make it forget all the others and act like YOUR 0 molecules are the only ones that count? — | Bogus as it might seem, people, this really is a deliverable | | e-mail address. Of course, there isn’t REALLY a lumber cartel. | | There isn’t really a tooth fairy, but whois toothfairy.com works. |

Response:

Won’t it be more effective if I pay less?

ROTFL! — Regards, Jennifer Bales

Response:

Actually, I think you can just put a few hundred bucks in an envelope, then take the money back out of the envelope. Then you just send them the empty envelope which ‘remembers’ the money that used to be in it. Cheers John P.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Won’t it be more effective if I pay less? ROTFL! — Regards, Jennifer Bales

Response:

You know, that worked on our daughter. She was having trouble sleeping – had night terrors and the like. We bought a book on sleep disorders in children. She started sleeping well – and we never read the book. — #include

Response:

Curious. I wonder if this Dana Ullman is related to Robert Ullman and Judyth Reichenberg-Ullman??? They all seem to be in the homeopathetic industry! Cheers John P. Extraordinary Claims. Revolutionary Ideas, And the Promotion of Science — Vol. 7 No. 1999. On page 45, the title is Public Relations: Blue Smoke, Mirrors, and Designer Science How the Public Relations Industry Compromises Democracy by Brian Siano It’s basically a story of how the PR industry tricks editors and people into accepting things that they would otherwise not. It says that "[t]he best PR doesn’t look like advertising. Its goal is influence; it is designed to win hearts and minds, to get us, the public, on its clients’ side. "It’s an arsenal of fakery that would astound David Copperfield…. That arsenal includes planted news stories, newspaper editorials, and preproduced television news segmants. " The article gives several examples of how the PR firms are bought by big companies to create undue influence on our judgments of what is right and wrong. The tobacco companies like Philip Morris are brought up several times. And interestingly they start getting into IE crystals and ATG. It says, " one doesn’t imagine a magazine like "Mother Jones" falling for a pharmaceutical company’s PR. However, in September 1998, health columnist Michael Castleman reported on chemist Shui-Yin Lo, who was researching ice formations that gave off "a unique electrical field." These "IE clusters" formed in water containing extreme dilutions of sodium phosphate. UCLA immunologist Benjamin Bonavida reportedly said that water with IE crystals helped the immune system. The implication, drawn by Dana Ullman of Homeopathic Educational Services, is that Homeopathy works by creating IE crystals ( Castleman, 1998). "All of the claims in Castleman’s article regarding Lo and Bonavida’s work were derived from a homeophathy-boosting press release, written by Dana Ullman. Ullman, in turn, appears to have derived his claims from the American Technologies Group, whose other product include a fuel additive called "The Force", and the Superglobe, a varient on the "laundry ball" scam. Neither Ullman nor Castleman mentioned that the Oregon Department of Justice had investigated ATG’s and found no evidence for the existence of IE crystals. (ATG Website 1998, Touretzky and Dallara, 1998)."

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – These seminars are really helpful and interesting. For more info visit the homepage at www.BlueSkyEdu.org The Homeopathic Treatment of Distraction, Defiance and Despair with Robert Ullman and Judyth Reichenberg-Ullman Dates: Oct. 8, 1999 Friday 7:00 PM ? 8:30 PM Oct. 9,1999 Saturday 9:00 AM ? 5:30 PM Oct. 10, 1999 Sunday 9:00 AM ? 5:30 PM The authors of Rage-Free Kids, Prozac-Free and Ritalin-Free Kids invite you to join them for a very special weekend on homeopathic medicines for mental and emotional problems. The Ullmans will share with us their insights on how to resolve mental and emotional suffering of the mind with thoughtfully chosen homeopathic medicines. Their newest book, Rage-Free Kids, is scheduled to be released in the early fall of 1999. This seminar will be the very first time for the Ullman

Sleeping problem

admin — Sat, 12 Jun 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

. All babies are going to have times when they cry. You can’t solve crying by simply picking them up. There wouldn’t be such a thing a colic if it was that easy.

I read a quote from anthropologist Kathy Dettwyler who studied people living in Mali. The babies there are carried constantly, nursed as often as they want – and this often means several times an hour – sleep with their parents and nurse as much as they want through the night. Dettwyler said that not only did she not see any babies with colic, when she asked the women about it, they all said they had never seen anything like it, ever. So maybe colic could be eliminated if babies were carried, slept with their mothers, and nursed very frequently. Just a thought. Teresa

Response:

The habit of sleeping on boob just needed to be broken. I and hubby comfort

her at night by patting and petting, speaking softly, turning on the mobile for the music. We don’t turn on the lights, but make sure she is comfortable. Change the diaper if need. Check her temperature to make sure she isn’t cold. The first night she got really mad that we were not giving her the boob. I don’t think fear ever entered into it. She was just plain mad. Second night was 15 minutes of whining and fussing. Third night was 4 minutes of meows and the eyes didn’t even open up. Tonight, well we’ll just have to see. There have been, and will be more, times in the past that I’ve been on the toilet, shower, had soapy hands, dirty hands, etc. that I could not go directly to the baby and touch or pick her up when she was crying. This lag in getting to her will not scar her brain.

I agree. I don’t mind letting a baby cry, but I DO mind letting a baby cry out of fear. What I was saying is that you can let your baby cry at night without leaving the room–then the cries will be cries of anger at not getting her own way (which has to happen now and then) rather than cries of fear (which is not healthy). To try to be there the very second the baby cries is going to make you go crazy – you have to cut yourself some slack. Feeling guilty over 30 seconds is a waste of time.

But the Ferber method advises waiting longer than 30 seconds. It also advises increasing intervals, so at some point your baby may be crying for 15 or 30 minutes. I don’t see anything wrong with letting a baby cry a bit, provided that you stay and reassure her, but if your 6-month-old is screaming for 30 minutes for the mother that has disappeared, that cannot be healthy for the relationship. –Suzanne

Response:

I’m not being nasty or starting an arguement but what about mothers with twins or more? Kinda hard to do that with two/three even four kids! Neither of my kids had colic anyway! Susan ach ignore me this happieness thing is getting to be a joke now – three days of happiness! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . All babies are going to have times when they cry. You can’t solve crying by simply picking them up. There wouldn’t be such a thing a colic if it was that easy. I read a quote from anthropologist Kathy Dettwyler who studied people living in Mali. The babies there are carried constantly, nursed as often as they want – and this often means several times an hour – sleep with their parents and nurse as much as they want through the night. Dettwyler said that not only did she not see any babies with colic, when she asked the women about it, they all said they had never seen anything like it, ever. So maybe colic could be eliminated if babies were carried, slept with their mothers, and nursed very frequently. Just a thought. Teresa

Response:

I would like contact details so I can get hold of those who will decide whether to make you a counsellor or not. I am going to recommend they deny you your counsellorship due to an inherent lack of suitable empathy and sympathy. You should know better as a counsellor to laugh at others’ misfortunes!!!! Mandy PS – to those who think I am flaming Beverly, my tongue is firmly in my cheek and I am joking! PPS – to Beverly – before you ask…. yes, I *have* been talking to Linda!!! PPS – to Linda – sorry to drop you in it!! HUGE BIG

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would like to see some solid research to demonstrate long-term benefits before it would be something I would do with my children. My reference to research comes from Ferber’s book–and, I assume, from his research as Director of the Center for Pediatric Sleep Disorders at Children’s Hospital in Boston. (I’m not going to get into quoting research here…the book is in paperback and probably a staple at libraries.) It certainly appears that experts can disagree on this issue. By extension, all I ask is that parents be allowed to disagree–and those who choose not to co-sleep not be sent on a guilt trip about the damage they’re doing to their children. (You’ll notice I haven’t attacked co-sleeping *at all*.)

I have read Ferber’s book and there is no reference to actual research (unless some has been added to a later edition.) I agree that you did not attack co-sleeping, but you said that there were benefits to babies from Ferber’s approach. I have not seen any research that shows benefits, and was asking if you had. Teresa

Response:

I read the book and I still disagree. I also think that there are all kinds of different kids in the world. What you described with your child, wouldn’t have worked with mine. She was/is just too intense. She would be the one covered in the separate advice relating to kids who get so upset that they vomit. In the book you are advised that, if they vomit, don’t make a big deal, just clean it up and leave the room again so that they don’t learn to vomit to get your attention. I know people who have high strung kids who have tried it. One friend now has a daughter who cries all day and clings to her in desperation when they cross the threshold to the nursery, presumaby because she thinks she will be abandoned. Another friend has kids who play cheerfully in their crib by themselves after Ferber. It is kid specific. SM

Response:

No. But I would prefer a sort of modified Ferber approach: instead of disappearing altogether, I’d suggest simply laying the baby down and sitting in a chair with little response. I would also start this at age 12 mos or so, when a child can understand a parent’s words ("I am not going to pick you up tonight; I am just going to sit here") and can be reasoned with to a small degree. You would still get tears, but they would be tears of anger, not fear. I think it is okay for a baby to be angry and not get his own way sometimes, but I don’t think it does any good to be afraid that Mommy and Daddy are gone and won’t come when I call. I submit that over the course of 6 months, a baby who has to cry, wait for mom or dad to come in, and be rocked or nursed back to sleep several times a night suffers more cumulative distress than a baby who was subjected to the Ferber method for a few nights.

I disagree. When a parent responds to a child’s cries of fear and lonelines, however many times a night, the child learns that his parents will be there for him EVERY SINGLE TIME. Very eventually, the child will grow confident and sure of himself and his importance in the family. The baby who can’t depend on his parents to respond will learn that Mom & Dad cannot be trusted. He will learn to sleep on his own, I have no doubt. But the price might be a crack in the foundation of his relationship with his parents. A few extra hour of sleep is, in my opinion, not worth damaging the parent/child relationship. –Suzanne

Response:

It was not abandoning the baby that made her cry in the middle of the night, but just plain pissed off that she wanted to fall asleep on the boob!!!! Sad to say, I got her in the habit of falling asleep on boob in the middle of the night because it was easier to do that when she woke up. Now I’m paying the piper. horvathk at email dot uah dot edu

Response:

would like to see some solid research to demonstrate long-term benefits before it would be something I would do with my children.

My reference to research comes from Ferber’s book–and, I assume, from his research as Director of the Center for Pediatric Sleep Disorders at Children’s Hospital in Boston. (I’m not going to get into quoting research here…the book is in paperback and probably a staple at libraries.) It certainly appears that experts can disagree on this issue. By extension, all I ask is that parents be allowed to disagree–and those who choose not to co-sleep not be sent on a guilt trip about the damage they’re doing to their children. (You’ll notice I haven’t attacked co-sleeping *at all*.) -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.

Response:

Mandy- unfortunately you took away the option I would suggest- sleeping with you. I am not sure what else to suggest to you. Maybe she could just come into your bed at 4am so you could get a few good hours sleep? Lani

Response:

Poor you! no sleep and being bitten! Beverley sorry, did you expect a helpful reply?

Response:

Try keeping the room totally dark instead of having a dim light. Any light will cause her to see the you and things she enjoys playing with, and will be a distraction. Sit near her and let her know you are there. She may fuss a bit, but it will be because she is mad that you won’t play with her, not because she is afraid you have abandoned her. (Different from Ferber.) The fact that she doesn’t seem to want anything from you suggests she might be able to fal asleep on her own. Turn the light off and try going back to bed without saying or doing much, and see what happens. She may get bored and fall right asleep by herself. –Suzanne

Response:

If I were you, I’d go to the library and get out several books on solving sleep problems – you may find one that works for you. My pediatrician told me that once the baby reaches 15 pounds, they no longer need feedings in the middle of the night – after 15 pounds, it becomes a comfort habit, rather than a necessity. It sounds to me like she’s trying to get some extra cuddling and playing. At 8 months (14.5 pounds) my son was up every 90 minutes for a feeding. As far as Ferber goes, for many people it does work. What it entails is comforting your child at longer and longer intervals until she learns to sleep on her own. You may have heard that the Ferber technique is simply crying it out, which it isn’t. If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense. Good Luck Heidi

Response:

A great book I’m surprised to not have seen mentioned yet is "Nighttime parenting" by Dr. William Sears (a pediatrician and father of I believe 8 children). It’s an excellent book for anti-Ferber types like me. Elsie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If I were you, I’d go to the library and get out several books on solving sleep problems – you may find one that works for you. My pediatrician told me that once the baby reaches 15 pounds, they no longer need feedings in the middle of the night – after 15 pounds, it becomes a comfort habit, rather than a necessity. It sounds to me like she’s trying to get some extra cuddling and playing. At 8 months (14.5 pounds) my son was up every 90 minutes for a feeding. As far as Ferber goes, for many people it does work. What it entails is comforting your child at longer and longer intervals until she learns to sleep on her own. You may have heard that the Ferber technique is simply crying it out, which it isn’t. If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense. Good Luck Heidi

Response:

I am one of the few who hasn’t read Ferber (I’m in UK) but knows of the techniques – i didn’t even know there was a name to go with it! I believe it can work for some and not for others (it all depends on the child and the parents stamina) I am glad to say it worked for us and we now have our twins in a great sleeping habit – they no longer us to put them into bed asleep – which was a killer when you have squeaky floorboards! Anyway all the best Susan http://twins.cjb.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sentence that people who are opposed to the Ferber technique have really not "read" the book is not necessarily true. I have read that book and also own a copy of it in home library. And yet I am opposed to many of his methodologies and some of his absurd conclusions. I have no desire to get into any sort of debate about these sleeping arrangments. However, I find that anytime somebody opposes a particular method, a rather presumptuous assumption is made that one has not read the book. One can read the book and memorize it, but that still may go against the grain of one’s philosophy or natural inclination. Savithri — Eadem mutata resurgo

Response:

The sentence that people who are opposed to the Ferber technique have really not "read" the book is not necessarily true. I have read that book and also own a copy of it in home library. And yet I am opposed to many of his methodologies and some of his absurd conclusions. I have no desire to get into any sort of debate about these sleeping arrangments. However, I find that anytime somebody opposes a particular method, a rather presumptuous assumption is made that one has not read the book. One can read the book and memorize it, but that still may go against the grain of one’s philosophy or natural inclination. Savithri — Eadem mutata resurgo

Response:

Well said Dr Dallape! Couldn’t have put it better myself! Beverley

Response:

I own the book too, read it cover to cover twice and still didn’t like it. Did like the chapter on night terrors vs nightmares though (my son had night terrors). Elsie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sentence that people who are opposed to the Ferber technique have really not "read" the book is not necessarily true. I have read that book and also own a copy of it in home library. And yet I am opposed to many of his methodologies and some of his absurd conclusions. I have no desire to get into any sort of debate about these sleeping arrangments. However, I find that anytime somebody opposes a particular method, a rather presumptuous assumption is made that one has not read the book. One can read the book and memorize it, but that still may go against the grain of one’s philosophy or natural inclination. Savithri — Eadem mutata resurgo

Response:

Suzanne, I am going through this "wakes up in the middle of the night" thing right now with my 9 month old, Erica. From the time she came home from the hospital, she slept in a bassinet at the side of my bed (waterbed) until she was 6 months old. She then graduated to a baby crib in her own room. I would nurse her at night in my bed from the start. The *changing of the beds* didn’t even cause an eyelash blink. She got into the habit of falling back to sleep at night attached to the boob. At first she ate very well. An infant needs the nursing. At 8 months of age she would simply fall asleep on the boob, within seconds sometime. Clearly, she was not hungry, simply falling asleep attached as habit had formed. There have been some nights that she has slept through without waking. (9PM to 6AM). So I knew she could do this. The habit of sleeping on boob just needed to be broken. (That’s getting work this week) I and hubby comfort her at night by patting and petting, speaking softly, turning on the mobile for the music. We don’t turn on the lights, but make sure she is comfortable. Change the diaper if need. Check her temperature to make sure she isn’t cold. The first night she got really mad that we were not giving her the boob. I don’t think fear ever entered into it. She was just plain mad. Second night was 15 minutes of whining and fussing. Third night was 4 minutes of meows and the eyes didn’t even open up. Tonight, well we’ll just have to see. There have been, and will be more, times in the past that I’ve been on the toilet, shower, had soapy hands, dirty hands, etc. that I could not go directly to the baby and touch or pick her up when she was crying. This lag in getting to her will not scar her brain. Not getting to her within seconds of her making a sound will not change that she can depend on us. To try to be there the very second the baby cries is going to make you go crazy – you have to cut yourself some slack. Feeling guilty over 30 seconds is a waste of time. The baby picking up on my feelings of confidence, security, and love is much more relevant than getting picked up physically. All babies are going to have times when they cry. You can’t solve crying by simply picking them up. There wouldn’t be such a thing a colic if it was that easy. It is very obvious that she loves and trusts both daddy and mommy. She learned from the start that we will respond to her. If she didn’t have it by now, I’d be having serious problems with her. Erica is very confident and sure of herself…the most confident of any baby I currently know. She does not need a pacifier or her thumb (she plays with the pacifier like a little toy, waving it around and tossing it). She doesn’t fuss or whine just to fuss and whine – lordy, I know babies that do this, they can’t do anything without the mommy being attached to them they are so insecure. She wants to try new food, new toys, new games with us, grandparents, or with other babies. Wants to play at 100 mph all the time. She is bright, smiling, laughing, loves to see people and go places in public. Very balanced and healthy. With me, without me, I know she will be just fine. I’m correcting the bad habit I formed – not stigmatizing my child. horvathk at email dot uah dot edu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, if co-sleeping is not an option, for whatever reason, is having a baby who awakens several times a night (for months or years) alone in a dark room and has to cry for assistance to fall back asleep better than having a few nights of crying which teaches a baby that a quiet, dark room means sleep time and enables the baby to fall back asleep without crying? No. But I would prefer a sort of modified Ferber approach: instead of disappearing altogether, I’d suggest simply laying the baby down and sitting in a chair with little response. I would also start this at age 12 mos or so, when a child can understand a parent’s words ("I am not going to pick you up tonight; I am just going to sit here") and can be reasoned with to a small degree. You would still get tears, but they would be tears of anger, not fear. I think it is okay for a baby to be angry and not get his own way sometimes, but I don’t think it does any good to be afraid that Mommy and Daddy are gone and won’t come when I call. I submit that over the course of 6 months, a baby who has to cry, wait for mom or dad to come in, and be rocked or nursed back to sleep several times a night suffers more cumulative distress than a baby who was subjected to the Ferber method for a few nights. I disagree. When a parent responds to a child’s cries of fear and lonelines, however many times a night, the child learns that his parents will be there for him EVERY SINGLE TIME. Very eventually, the child will grow confident and sure of himself and his importance in the family. The baby who can’t depend on his parents to respond will learn that Mom & Dad cannot be trusted. He will learn to sleep on his own, I have no doubt. But the price might be a crack in the foundation of his relationship with his parents. A few extra hour of sleep is, in my opinion, not worth damaging the parent/child relationship. –Suzanne

Response:

I have to go with Joy on this one…..She’s got this mommy backing her side of the discussion. You go girl!!! horvathk at email dot uah dot edu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense. I agree…it seems Ferber is demonized, and I would guess that most of those who dislike his methods (as they interpret them) haven’t read the book. The whole point is that everyone–babies and adults–becomes accustomed to falling asleep under certain conditions, and everyone–babies and adults–wakes slightly during the night during transitions between different types of sleep (REM, deep sleep, etc.). Normally, adults drop right back off to sleep during these slight wakings–unless something is wrong. (He makes the analogy that if you fell asleep with a pillow and woke slightly to find it gone, you’d realize it was missing and wake more fully until you found it. If someone stole it altogether, you’d get upset and become really awake.) If babies become accustomed to falling asleep only when they’re being fed or rocked, when they wake slightly to find themselves in a different environment, they don’t fall back asleep and move onto the next phase of sleep–they wake fully and scream because something’s wrong. If, however, you accustom them to falling asleep in a quiet, dark room on their own, they don’t fully wake up during those "transitional" wakings, and are able to fall back asleep, moving onto the next phase. Also–as others have mentioned on occasion, the method doesn’t exactly involve letting the baby "cry it out". You just go in at steadily increasing intervals up to 15 minutes (if I remember correctly) if the baby is still crying, stay a few minutes and pat and/or speak softly to the baby to comfort him/her. You can start going in at 30 seconds if that’s what you need to do. I guess that *usually* if parents are committed to helping the baby learn to fall asleep on his/her own, it only takes a few nights before the baby becomes accustomed to the falling asleep. Ferber really doesn’t recommend this stuff until after the baby is 5 months old, either. My husband and I have (within the last week) realized that while our 10-week-old was sleeping with us, none of us slept well. My husband has allergies and sneezes and blows his nose a lot at night, which wakes the baby (often making him cry). I would end up letting him suck on my pinky (he hates pacifiers) or nursing him to get him back to sleep–every 2-3 hours. (Helps explain his 19 lb. weight at 9 weeks.) He never slept more than 3 hours a night until last week, when we started putting him in his crib. We didn’t exactly follow Ferber–we’d never let him cry for more than two minutes before going in to rub his back, and if he seemed really upset we’d pick him up and rock him–but now, a week later, he usually falls asleep with no crying after we put him down (he just fusses around for a minute or two, like he’s trying to get comfortable), and he’s sleeping for 4 or 5 hour stretches at night. (Admittedly, he’s a big breastfed baby, so doesn’t *need* to eat as much, but still, it’s a lot better than when he was sleeping with us.) In short, co-sleeping doesn’t work for everyone, and I don’t think it’s evil to have a baby sleep in his own crib in a different room. If someone wants help in getting their older baby to fall asleep on his/her own, it’s certainly fine to bring up the benefits of co-sleeping, but don’t expect that will be the solution to every sleeping problem. I would recommend reading Ferber–he really isn’t the evil guy some make him out to be, and he’s a pediatric sleep specialist in Boston (or was when the book was written), so his recommendations are based on actual research as well as anecdotal evidence from people for whom it worked. If you find the methods appalling, by all means, don’t use them. But for some, they work, and if they cause a mommy and daddy to be better rested and therefore more able to be really *there* for a baby during the day, they can’t be all bad. Alright, end of lecture. Sorry if I’ve offended…just needed to get the other side in somewhere. -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.

Response:

Joy W. wrote . Just recognize that some people will find the costs associated with the Ferber method (costs to both baby and frazzled parents) worth it if it means they can be more responsive, attentive parents after a night’s sleep.

My observations have actually been a bit different. I have worked with several parents whose babies stopped gaining weight after they used the Ferber method. What I observed was that the parents had "steeled themselves" not to respond to the baby’s crying at night (other than the timed visits) and that this also made them less responsive to the baby’s cries during the day. As well, the baby had learned to suck on a thumb or pacifier or soothe himself in other ways, so that what often happened was the baby would cry, the parents would be slow in responding, the baby would soothe himself and stop crying so the parents would figure he couldn’t really be hungry, and so on. Of course, eventually he would be fed – but the net result was a reduction in the total number of feedings and a drop in weight gain. Also, it concerned me that the parents were overall less responsive to the babies. (Not to mention that babies need some longer periods of uninterrupted sleep as well–sleep they will never get if they can’t get through the transitional phases without fully waking. It’s not just selfishness on the part of parents–there are also benefits to baby.)

Do you have some evidence of these "benefits to the baby?" I found James McKenna’s research very interesting. He studied mothers and babies sleeping together and apart, and found that babies who sleep close to their mothers are stimulated to partially wake many times during the night, while those who sleep alone go into a deeper sleep. However, his research says that this is NOT a good thing, because those babies have more episodes of stopping breathing. Remember that throughout history and in most parts of the world, babies have always slept next to their mothers, and certainly were not expected to be alone in a dark room away from everyone else. There has also been research (including some from Harvard) on the high levels of stress hormones produced in babies who are sleeping alone, and some researchers have expressed concerns that these high levels, at a time when the baby’s brain is developing rapidly, may have some long-term effects. Now, I don’t know of any research that shows long-term effects either way, and I think parents will make whatever choices suit them and their families. But I am inclined towards the conservative approach. Since babies have slept with their mothers for thousands of generations around the world, and this "crying it out" idea is relatively new and used in only a few countries, I would like to see some solid research to demonstrate long-term benefits before it would be something I would do with my children. Teresa

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Also–as others have mentioned on occasion, the method doesn’t exactly involve letting the baby "cry it out". You just go in at steadily increasing intervals up to 15 minutes (if I remember correctly) if the baby is still crying, stay a few minutes and pat and/or speak softly to the baby to comfort him/her.

That’s how we as adults see it and make sense out of it, because we have highly developed brains and can rationalize that we are not abandoning our children, but teaching them a lifelong skill. On the other hand, how does the child see it? Yes, I understand that we have to do some things for their own good, but leaving a baby crying in a room alone, even though WE ADULTS KNOW that we are going to enter again in a few minutes, will feel like abandonment to them. This is not saying "no candy" in a store and letting them be pissed off. This is leaving our 5 or 6 month olds in a dark room alone and not responding to their cries for what may seem like an eternity to them. –Suzanne

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few minutes, will feel like abandonment to them. This is not saying "no candy" in a store and letting them be pissed off. This is leaving our 5 or 6 month olds in a dark room alone and not responding to their cries for what may seem like an eternity to them. –Suzanne

So, if co-sleeping is not an option, for whatever reason, is having a baby who awakens several times a night (for months or years) alone in a dark room and has to cry for assistance to fall back asleep better than having a few nights of crying which teaches a baby that a quiet, dark room means sleep time and enables the baby to fall back asleep without crying? I submit that over the course of 6 months, a baby who has to cry, wait for mom or dad to come in, and be rocked or nursed back to sleep several times a night suffers more cumulative distress than a baby who was subjected to the Ferber method for a few nights. If we were talking about letting a baby cry every night for weeks, forget it. It wouldn’t be worth the misery the baby (and the parents) had to go through. However, as much as it would break my heart for my child to be miserable during that time, if it only took a few nights, for me the benefits of having a well-rested family–and a child who knows how to fall asleep on his own–would be worth it. If it’s not worth it to you, by all means, don’t do it. That said, I have a ten-week-old. I don’t claim to be an expert–I may be singing a completely different tune six months from now. However, I *have* read Ferber’s book, and simply felt the need to address the venomous statements I’ve seen on these newsgroups about his methods. I doubt those who disapprove of Ferber truly feel that the methods described in his book are true child abuse or neglect. (If you do, you probably haven’t read the book and don’t understand the process.) I suspect that most who disapprove of Ferber believe that it’s just too cruel to let a baby "feel abandoned" for those periods of time necessary to teach him/her to fall asleep alone–and if this is how you feel, by all means *don’t do it*. Just recognize that some people will find the costs associated with the Ferber method (costs to both baby and frazzled parents) worth it if it means they can be more responsive, attentive parents after a night’s sleep. (Not to mention that babies need some longer periods of uninterrupted sleep as well–sleep they will never get if they can’t get through the transitional phases without fully waking. It’s not just selfishness on the part of parents–there are also benefits to baby.) -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.

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If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense.

I agree…it seems Ferber is demonized, and I would guess that most of those who dislike his methods (as they interpret them) haven’t read the book. The whole point is that everyone–babies and adults–becomes accustomed to falling asleep under certain conditions, and everyone–babies and adults–wakes slightly during the night during transitions between different types of sleep (REM, deep sleep, etc.). Normally, adults drop right back off to sleep during these slight wakings–unless something is wrong. (He makes the analogy that if you fell asleep with a pillow and woke slightly to find it gone, you’d realize it was missing and wake more fully until you found it. If someone stole it altogether, you’d get upset and become really awake.) If babies become accustomed to falling asleep only when they’re being fed or rocked, when they wake slightly to find themselves in a different environment, they don’t fall back asleep and move onto the next phase of sleep–they wake fully and scream because something’s wrong. If, however, you accustom them to falling asleep in a quiet, dark room on their own, they don’t fully wake up during those "transitional" wakings, and are able to fall back asleep, moving onto the next phase. Also–as others have mentioned on occasion, the method doesn’t exactly involve letting the baby "cry it out". You just go in at steadily increasing intervals up to 15 minutes (if I remember correctly) if the baby is still crying, stay a few minutes and pat and/or speak softly to the baby to comfort him/her. You can start going in at 30 seconds if that’s what you need to do. I guess that *usually* if parents are committed to helping the baby learn to fall asleep on his/her own, it only takes a few nights before the baby becomes accustomed to the falling asleep. Ferber really doesn’t recommend this stuff until after the baby is 5 months old, either. My husband and I have (within the last week) realized that while our 10-week-old was sleeping with us, none of us slept well. My husband has allergies and sneezes and blows his nose a lot at night, which wakes the baby (often making him cry). I would end up letting him suck on my pinky (he hates pacifiers) or nursing him to get him back to sleep–every 2-3 hours. (Helps explain his 19 lb. weight at 9 weeks.) He never slept more than 3 hours a night until last week, when we started putting him in his crib. We didn’t exactly follow Ferber–we’d never let him cry for more than two minutes before going in to rub his back, and if he seemed really upset we’d pick him up and rock him–but now, a week later, he usually falls asleep with no crying after we put him down (he just fusses around for a minute or two, like he’s trying to get comfortable), and he’s sleeping for 4 or 5 hour stretches at night. (Admittedly, he’s a big breastfed baby, so doesn’t *need* to eat as much, but still, it’s a lot better than when he was sleeping with us.) In short, co-sleeping doesn’t work for everyone, and I don’t think it’s evil to have a baby sleep in his own crib in a different room. If someone wants help in getting their older baby to fall asleep on his/her own, it’s certainly fine to bring up the benefits of co-sleeping, but don’t expect that will be the solution to every sleeping problem. I would recommend reading Ferber–he really isn’t the evil guy some make him out to be, and he’s a pediatric sleep specialist in Boston (or was when the book was written), so his recommendations are based on actual research as well as anecdotal evidence from people for whom it worked. If you find the methods appalling, by all means, don’t use them. But for some, they work, and if they cause a mommy and daddy to be better rested and therefore more able to be really *there* for a baby during the day, they can’t be all bad. Alright, end of lecture. Sorry if I’ve offended…just needed to get the other side in somewhere. -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.

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Hi I am cross-posting this to both parenting AND breastfeeding groups as I have received very good advice from both in the past. My 6.5 mo daughter is feeding every 2 hours during the night, and has been for ages. However, at about 1am she wakes to feed as normal, falls asleep on the breast as normal, but when I put her back into her cot, she wakes up. It takes about 10 mins to get her back to sleep. She doesn’t cry or show any signs of teething or distress. She is just awake and wanting to get up. I keep the light dim (she sleeps in our room and we have a light on dim and have had since her birth),and I don’t talk to her. At about 4am, an hour after her last feed, she wakes up. She is not hungry, and again doesn’t cry. She just rolls around and crawls up and down in her cot playing with her blanket etc. Wide awake and wanting to get up. I can get her back to sleep if I am prepared to rock her etc for up to 45 mins, but I am often so tired from previously disturbed sleep I put her into bed with me and she sleeps fine there. I don’t want to get into the habit of her sleeping with us, though, as we only have a double bed and my dh is 6ft4". Either he takes the chance of squashing her or he can’t sleep properly, which he has to due to a pressurised job. Before anyone suggests it – we can’t afford a bigger bed! lol This has happened for the last 3 nights in a row, so looks set to be a habit. Nothing has changed in her routine or anything like that. I hope some of you have some ideas on what I can do! I am feeling the sleep deprivation, but cannot sleep during the day to make up for it. Mandy (who does not believe in Ferber and letting the child cry.)

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At what age is it safe for a baby to sleep in a waterbed with her parents? When she can roll over? sit up? Thanks, Suellen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes We had a California King waterbed so the size of the bed helped make more room for all of us. The warmth and gentle rocking motion of the waterbed also helped put the babies to sleep. You might try leaving the hot water bottle in the cot, tucked next to her, to imitate the warmth and presence of another person. It might fool her. Good luck. Prayer helps.

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Also, having lowered her in, stay leaning over on top of her (ie when she was being carried, her chest was resting against your chest, so when you put her down, kneel down next to the cot and keep your chest pressed against hers). Then only move very, very gradually (after several minutes) and keep contact of some sort (hand on her tummy, stroking her head) for even longer. — C Mama to Peter (2y 9mo), Isabel (15 months) Georgia and Anna (5 months)

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In my last rambling message, I just talked about your problem about your child who wants to sleep with you but didn’t offer a suggestion on how to put her down. We have found that we cannot put Jane down onto her back without her waking up so we put her down on her stomach. This way she has pressure on her stomach all the way down and then, if she startles, it seems as though she doesn’t awaken as easily. It’s a bit trickier though. DH and my mom prefer to rock her to sleep over their arm so that she is already face down when she goes to sleep. I carry her in the cradle position and then manage to flip her over as I put her down. Good luck, Susan M.

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Mandy, we went through the same thing when Mia was around that age and I sympathize!! BTW, we’ve had a family bed since the day she was born, but after a couple of… er… accidents I’m hesitant to leave her unattended in our bed; makes for lots of running frantically to the bedroom every time I hear a peep from the monitor. We tried putting Mia in her playpen but it was the downward motion that woke her every time. Finally I started putting her in her infant car seat/carrier; I still do that about 50 percent of the time, even though she now has a toddler bed which is easier to put her down in. The trick is to squat down next to the car seat and settle the baby in without delatching her. Bend awkwardly over the carrier until the baby stops wiggling/sighing, then pop your nipple free! The baby likes the closeness of the infant seat so might not wake as easily. If you dare, move the infant seat with baby inside to a quiet corner of the house. Mia sleeps better if I put a blanket over her, even if it’s warm in the house. Good luck! You may find this improves on its own as your baby gets older. Jessica — Little bugs have littler bugs upon their backs to bite ‘em, And littler bugs have littler bugs, and on _ad infinitum_.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage). We used to have THE most difficult time getting our 7 month old Matthew to sleep in his crib – it was ALWAYS laying him down that woke him up. I’ve discovered this "trick" that works every time now! We use the Baby Sling – I’ll get Matthew to fall asleep in the sling, so that he’s already in reclined position (i.e., he’s leaning back so that there is an even pressure across his back). Once he’s sound asleep, I’ll stand over his crib, GENTLY lay him down and then slide the sling over my head so that he’s then laying on the sling. Because he already has a steady pressure across his back, it doesn’t seem to disturb him in the least when I lay him down.

I am so glad that someone else uses this method! I actually start with DD in a sling – but with my arms around her and rocking her as if I am holding her without the sling – then I gradually remove the pressure of my arms (this seems to be when she stirs the most), allowing the sling to take up all of her weight. Once this is done, then I simply slip her, sling and all in to the cot and she is fine. From my experience it is the pressure of my arms that seems to be the major issue. Kylie (Mum to Jocelyn 20 weeks)

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You have heaps of great ideas, although it sounds to me that you know what suits you and your baby and are just getting confused by all those other messages we get everyday. Thought you might like to hear from someone a little further down the line. My nightmare sleeper is now nearly six and goes to sleep willingly easily and soundly. I usually see her just before we are due to get up in the am, which is great ’cause I love those early morning cuddles (although it doesn’t make getting out of bed in the winter any easier) Ironically her sister nearly 4 used to be my ‘good’ sleeper and it is she who takes the longest these days. I figure they all need some extra loving at some stage it just we don’t know when it will happen and how long it will last. By the way both of my girls are delightful independant children who show no signs of having been spoilt.

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If co-sleeping works, then by all means do it! I’m convinced that I’m a better parent during the day when I get good sleep at night. Sometimes I just need to sleep without little poky toes and kicky feet, so here’s what works to keep my little 5 month old asleep during the transition to the co-sleeper: I nurse him to sleep sitting up in bed next to his co-sleeper (sidecar arrangement. I lay him on a pillow so I can easily rock him onto his back while he still feels the warmth of my arms, and I cover him with blanket before I try to put him down. Swaddling might help too, though my son likes his arms free. I don’t try to move him until he’s in deep sleep–his arms are limp, lips slack and no rapid eye movement. If I put him butt down first, then gradually let his head down, it seems to work the best. Some people have also tried pre-warming the baby’s bed with a heating pad before putting the baby down, in case the cold sheets jar the baby awake. But be sure to REMOVE THE PAD before the baby goes in. I know someone who had a scorched mattress from a faulty heating pad. I’ve heard many places that when babies are about to make a developmental leap forward, they often regress a little emotionally and need more support and reassurance. Good luck. Kathryn Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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I had the same problem. I figured out that my daughter liked the coziness of sleeping in my arms. Try putting her next to you in bed, and let her fall asleep breastfeeding. The smell of you in the sheets will help her stay asleep. Our daughter now sleeps with us (since 6 months). She sleeps so much better! Good luck! I remember those nights that I spent hours trying to put my daughter down, only to have her wake up and I had to start over again. I can relate with the 6-7 attempts! LOL Monique (mommy to Cierra–going to be 1 yr old next week!)

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying. We have tried settling her again and patting her bum etc, but she is up on all 4’s, then crawling around (still crying!) then standing and yelling. She wakes herself up fully. I tried leaving her once crying – never again. She got so worked up, she vomited. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something. The impression I get is that the idea of sleeping in the cot frightens her. She sleeps fine on us and in bed. She sleeps fine if I walk around with her in my arms. But as soon as she senses that downward motion of putting her in the cot, we can forget her sleeping. But if I pick her up and rock her, she will fall asleep again. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well. Many thanks in advance Mandy

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Rachel & Bill wrote

I agree. Next time someone mentions spoiling a child use my motto. You can’t spoil a child with love or attention, just physical things (toys, etc.). Karen (mommy to Sean 12/95 and Daniel 3/98)

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This may be too obvious and you may have already tried it or something similar, but here’s a thought. You say when she feels the lowering she starts to wake up / cry. Maybe if you eliminated that feeling. Can you sort of kneel next to it and slide her onto the cot? I have a 3 month old. I nurse, and we are just past the transition of sleeping with Mom to moving to the cradle. I started to transition him by moving him away from me once he fell asleep. (We nurse lying down) So he was very used to being slid along the bed, away from Mom. From there, I put the cradle next to the bed, and would slide him just a little further, with a minimum drop, into the cradle. This is were we are now, and it works 90% of the time. Our next step will be to put him in his crib across the room, and then into his own room. But I’m waiting on those steps until he starts sleeping longer. Good Luck. — Carol

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What you say makes sense. If I put her to sleep next to me on the couch, for example, she is fine. It must be the downward movement. I am very curious to know why! I agree with you on the "spoilt" story – my hackles sure rose when I heard this opinion, but being a first time mom, I can’t afford to discount anything without considering it first. I love sleeping with her in my bed, but my dh is 6ft4" and we only have a double bed, so it is a bit uncomfortable when she is with us the wholed night! My LLL has that book "The family bed", so I will borrow it and read it. Thanks for the help! Mandy

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My dd is 12.5 months old and has always been a crummy sleeper. We had the same problem with lying her down as well. I have no magical solution but can tell you what my friends with similar children and I have done. Basically, we have just hung in there and, as our children have grown older, they have become better and better. Just after Jane’s 1st birthday, she fell asleep on her own (in our bed but without bf’ing or rocking) and slept right through the night two nights in a row. It didn’t last but now she gets up only once a night. Prior to her first birthday, she was up every two hours all night every night for a month. Buoyed by her recent sucess at putting herself to sleep, I have experimented with rubbing her back when she wakes up – I have had over a 50% success rate – something that she couldn’t do before. I just keep trying these things and find tht she eventually can do them. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something.

Jane was exactly the same way. She would wake up with a prolonged startle reflex and be scared out of her wits. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well.

I decided to ignore all of my friends with good sleepers and my ped when it came to this topic. Basically, all kids are different and you know deep down that your child is just not ready to sleep well on her own. I don’t think that there is anything that can really be done other than to avoid associating sleep time with bad stuff. i.e. scary things for your child like not being rocked or not getting whatever she needs. Another friend of mine had the same experience. She tried the Ferber thing and her child became clingy and upset. Now, her husband puts the baby to bed at night and she goes to sleep much more easily for him – she is more interested in her mother so stays awake longer for her. We haven’t done this but you may want to try this. At eight months though I think that they have separation anxiety and feel better being with mom – right up close. As I recall, I had to lie down with Jane at around 8 months to get her to sleep but, if I moved out of the bed, she would instantly waken. She went through a phase of doing this for about a month I think – then, I could get out of bed again and do a few things. I hear you about being stressed out and about receiving criticism about your dd sleeping with you. I have been there. Jane just demanded to sleep with us starting at 6 weeks. I walked the floor for up to four hours with her and the second I went to put her down, she would wake. At one point, I thought that I would actually fall asleep while walking. We had no other choice – but my mother and MIL are still scandalized by what we do – as our friends of ours with "easy" children. Sometimes it seems like a long haul and we wonder when will we ever get our bed back. I have a friend whose 4 year old just suddenly stopped sleeping with them. She says that, when you are first starting out, 2 – 4 years may sound long; however, when you are at the end of it, it seems short. I also absolutely love knowing where she is and that she is safe with us all night. We just take it one day at a time. Our daughter is hap-hap-happy and super outgoing. We feel that respecting her personality and needs at this time have contributed to this. No one who doesn’t have a child like this can ever really understand what you’re going through so you have to just listen to your instincts. You are not insane or a bad mother or out of control – you just won the baby lottery with a crummy sleeper and with a persistent child who is demanding to be close. I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage).

I am sorry that I don’t have anything more concrete to offer I can also recommend the Dr. Sears Nighttime Parenting and Parenting the High Needs Child. We took all the sleep related books out of the library and these are the only ones that rung any chord with us. I knew that what the others suggested would not work for Jane and our family. Good luck!! Susan M.

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I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage).

We used to have THE most difficult time getting our 7 month old Matthew to sleep in his crib – it was ALWAYS laying him down that woke him up. I’ve discovered this "trick" that works every time now! We use the Baby Sling – I’ll get Matthew to fall asleep in the sling, so that he’s already in reclined position (i.e., he’s leaning back so that there is an even pressure across his back). Once he’s sound asleep, I’ll stand over his crib, GENTLY lay him down and then slide the sling over my head so that he’s then laying on the sling. Because he already has a steady pressure across his back, it doesn’t seem to disturb him in the least when I lay him down. I used to SWEAR that his eyelids and his proximity to his crib were LINKED – the closer we got, the more he’d open his eyes… My theory is that the pressure of him leaning back in the sling isn’t too different than the pressure he would feel laying on his back in his crib. Whereas the pressure he/she feels from your arms is quite different than a mattress. I used to slide the sling out from under him, but I don’t bother anymore, in fact I’ll cover him up with it. I hope I’m making sense – and I assure you, it’s worked like a charm for us – plus, there’s so many other benefits of using a sling. — http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Stage/9894/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying. We have tried settling her again and patting her bum etc, but she is up on all 4’s, then crawling around (still crying!) then standing and yelling. She wakes herself up fully. I tried leaving her once crying – never again. She got so worked up, she vomited. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something. The impression I get is that the idea of sleeping in the cot frightens her. She sleeps fine on us and in bed. She sleeps fine if I walk around with her in my arms. But as soon as she senses that downward motion of putting her in the cot, we can forget her sleeping. But if I pick her up and rock her, she will fall asleep again. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well. I am getting really stressed out. I don’t work, but my dh does, and the constant crying and battles to get her back to sleep during the night wake him. Sometimes I can put her down 6 – 7 times in a row (after going through the whole rocking-her-back-to-sleep saga) and she will wake every time. That’s why I now find it easier to just put her in bed with me. But now I have been criticised for spoiling her, and I have been told that she is crying as she wants to sleep with me and not alone. How can this be when I started putting her into bed with me only now that the sleep problem has worsened? I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage). Many thanks in advance Mandy

There are advocates for co-sleeping and for separate sleeping. I don’t think you can spoil a 8 months old baby. Of course she prefers sleeping with you! There are a lot of people on this newsgroup who did the family bed and they can answer questions about that better than I do. (We don’t co-sleep, except in the morning). If you are comfortable with your daughter sleeping in your bed and your dh is too, then just go for it and don’t listen to the critics, it is none of their business!! Do whatever feels comfortable for you. Dr. Sears babybook has a lot about co-sleeping. Beatrice

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I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage).

mandy, our daughter does some different things, but whe will wake up and cry if she is put into a playpen or crib. i am convinced that it is the downward movement, which is different from lying down. in any case, we decided soon after she was born that we were fine with her sleeping with us. we all get a lot more sleep. we do have her crib as a "sidecar" to our bed, and she occasionally sleeps there – the side is down. there has been a lot written about co-sleeping, or the family bed. you might want to read nighttime parenting by dr. william sears the family bed by tine thevenin for starters. i know that my daughter will move to a big bed when she’s ready, and she is soo independant and curious that i think my parenting style is working with her. also – i have issues with the word "spoiled". spoiled means gone bad. how can a child go bad if their needs are met? and breastfeeding on cue and night time parenting on cue (some kids do sleep better in a crib, some better with their parents). hope all works out well. rachel — Rachel – Mama to Mackenzie the toddler (may3/98) http://www.flash.net/~bira (updated 6/99) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Shores/6929/ (cloth diapering site)

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Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying. We have tried settling her again and patting her bum etc, but she is up on all 4’s, then crawling around (still crying!) then standing and yelling. She wakes herself up fully. I tried leaving her once crying – never again. She got so worked up, she vomited. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something. The impression I get is that the idea of sleeping in the cot frightens her. She sleeps fine on us and in bed. She sleeps fine if I walk around with her in my arms. But as soon as she senses that downward motion of putting her in the cot, we can forget her sleeping. But if I pick her up and rock her, she will fall asleep again. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well. I am getting really stressed out. I don’t work, but my dh does, and the constant crying and battles to get her back to sleep during the night wake him. Sometimes I can put her down 6 – 7 times in a row (after going through the whole rocking-her-back-to-sleep saga) and she will wake every time. That’s why I now find it easier to just put her in bed with me. But now I have been criticised for spoiling her, and I have been told that she is crying as she wants to sleep with me and not alone. How can this be when I started putting her into bed with me only now that the sleep problem has worsened? I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage). Many thanks in advance Mandy

Response:

Urgent Help (advice) Son has Apnea Age 5

admin — Wed, 14 Apr 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

Two and a half years ago I was diagnosed with Apnea. Now I see that my son (age 5) has the same thing. From what we can see it seems to be regular breathing interruption and snoring. Waking every few minutes. He has complained to morning headaches and waking drowsiness. Tonight we put my mask over his nose (after turning down the pressure) and it seemed to work great. He had regular breathing and seemed to sleep deeply. Question, is there a machine and mask designed for small children? I realize that I will need to have him tested, but is there suitable treatments for such a small child? I welcome any and all comments. Sleepless in Seattle

Response:

>Question, is there a machine and mask designed for small >children? I realize that I will need to have him tested, but is there >suitable treatments for such a small child? >I welcome any and all comments. >Sleepless in Seattle

Different cpap machines have different pressure capabilities, but as some adults require very low pressure settings, would imagine that there is a machine suitable for a child. I’m not certain about the mask, but seem to think that I have heard of infants and children on cpap, so there must be something out there for them. Where are you going to get him seen? Children’s hospital has a clinic for infant apnea (not certain if they deal with obstructive apnea in children though- they may just deal with the central apnea of infants- it wouldn’t hurt to call them though). I can’t remember the name of the woman physician that runs the clinic, but I have spoken to her, and she may be a good resource for you. I am seen at Seattle Providence Sleep Lab, under the direction of Dr. Pascualey- I actually am seen for regular visits by the nurse practitioner Barbara Parkman, and have been pleased with their services, as well as with the dme— masks, hoses and machine. Good luck with your son- I have heard that obstructive apnea can be quite a problem with some children- they especially seem to have problems with nasal obstruction from oversized adneoids, or throat obstruction from overlarge tonsils. Some children even develop cor pulmonale (right sided heart failure) from this– so just as for adults, this can lead to health consequences beyond being sleepy during the day. I believe that sometimes a child can have a cure with adnoid and or tonsil removal. Let us know what happens, and hope you find some help for him. Poor little guy- dealing with headaches and daytime drowsiness, just when the weather is improving, and he needs all of his energy for playing and exploring and having a good time being a kid!!!!

Response:

On Wed, 14 Apr 1999 08:55:38 GMT, ma…@seanet.com.nospam (Joe ) wrote: >Question, is there a machine and mask designed for small >children? I realize that I will need to have him tested, but is there >suitable treatments for such a small child?

Yes, there are pediatric versions of CPAP masks. One thing on kids: in a lot of cases, it’s large tonsils that cause the problems. — IMPORTANT: Remove the edible part of the E-mail address before replying.

Response:

Joe – How frightening this must be. I have prepared a list of links to web sites that deal with sleep disorders that I post from time to time and also e-mail to people. I will e-mail you the full list, but here are a few links, including some not on the list, that deal with children and sleep problems. I hope this helps. I wish you and your son success in finding a treatment that works. Please keep us posted on your progress. http://kidshealth.org/parent/healthy/sleep_disorder.html http://kidshealth.org/parent/healthy/index.html http://kidshealth.org/parent/healthy/sleep.html http://www.healthology.com/sleepdisorders/articles/kids.html http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/DailyNews/sleepapnea980908… http://more.abcnews.go.com/sections/living/kidssleep1009/index.html http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/1837/children.html http://www.drkoop.com/adam/peds/top/000811.htm Kent Taylor (Mongo) Joe wrote in message <371557a9.19210…@news.gte.net>…

|Two and a half years ago I was diagnosed with Apnea. Now I see that my |son (age 5) has the same thing. From what we can see it seems to be |regular breathing interruption and snoring. Waking every few minutes. |He has complained to morning headaches and waking drowsiness. Tonight |we put my mask over his nose (after turning down the pressure) and it |seemed to work great. He had regular breathing and seemed to sleep |deeply. | | Question, is there a machine and mask designed for small |children? I realize that I will need to have him tested, but is there |suitable treatments for such a small child? |I welcome any and all comments. |Sleepless in Seattle |

Response:

Joe, I’m the only one here with a *diagnosed* child with OSA, at least that I know of. Since I’m at home with a toddler all day long I don’t always check in here daily but I’d be happy to share with you my experiences with my 8 year old son, who was diagnosed at age 4-1/2. He is a "special needs" kid and among his collection of diagnoses is hypotonia, or low muscle tone. He had his tonsils and adenoids removed because he was a noisy breather (made a snore-like sound even when awake) from infancy, and when that didn’t resolve his noisiness and a tonsillectomy landed him in pediatric ICU for 25 days (half of them on a respirator) with pneumonia, it was obvious there was an underlying medical problem. When he had his first sleep study he went into Delta sleep almost instantly because he was so sleep deprived. He would consistently fall asleep at dinner because he was unable to get the quality of sleep he needed at night. Once he was fitted with a *pediatric* sized mask, *child* sized head- gear, and set up with a Sullivan VPAP (on bi-level settings of 6 & 3) he slept great and has been doing pretty well ever since. Your son should most likely see an ear/nose/throat doctor to have his tonsils looked at as someone made you aware of already. It was this doctor who removed my son’s, and he has continued to have an interest in his apnea treatment although the doctor who directly oversees it is a pediatric pulmonologist (lung specialist). The fact that you are already being treated for OSA should make the process easier for your youngster to understand, just realize that if he needs a sleep study done he will need a parent to stay with him overnight at the sleep lab. At least that’s what our labs have requested. That is how I have become educated about all this (and a little sleep deprived myself!). Good luck to you both– Liz – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Joe wrote in message <371557a9.19210…@news.gte.net>… >Two and a half years ago I was diagnosed with Apnea. Now I see that my >son (age 5) has the same thing. From what we can see it seems to be >regular breathing interruption and snoring. Waking every few minutes. >He has complained to morning headaches and waking drowsiness. Tonight >we put my mask over his nose (after turning down the pressure) and it >seemed to work great. He had regular breathing and seemed to sleep >deeply. > Question, is there a machine and mask designed for small >children? I realize that I will need to have him tested, but is there >suitable treatments for such a small child? >I welcome any and all comments. >Sleepless in Seattle

Response:

You may want to contact Dr. Pisani’s office, he is a very well known sleep specialist, the phone number is 425-899-6972 located in Woodinville WA. Joe wrote in message

news:371557a9.19210956@news.gte.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Two and a half years ago I was diagnosed with Apnea. Now I see that my > son (age 5) has the same thing. From what we can see it seems to be > regular breathing interruption and snoring. Waking every few minutes. > He has complained to morning headaches and waking drowsiness. Tonight > we put my mask over his nose (after turning down the pressure) and it > seemed to work great. He had regular breathing and seemed to sleep > deeply. > Question, is there a machine and mask designed for small > children? I realize that I will need to have him tested, but is there > suitable treatments for such a small child? > I welcome any and all comments. > Sleepless in Seattle

Response:

Mis-understanding

admin — Sun, 21 Mar 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

> Pardon me, but Ha! I couldn’t agree more. You are right about one set of > parents. My sincere apologies if this seemed to be an order.

Again, no problem. I had to take some assertive classes to keep from being bossed around by anyone so that’s why I reacted the way I did. It’s over – let’s just move on. > Yes it is. Generally I do not recommend medication unless most other common > sense methods have been attempted. And surgery is way down on the bottom of > the list. We’ve had people die due to surgery. However, we’ve also had far > too many people who due to denial and fear of medical treatments attempted > non-effective techniques for their specific problems.

I always tell people to get regular check ups and consult a doctor before using any products which is what I did. he gave his blessings. It really is about educating the person. > I’m not saying your products may not help. But many times it should be wedded > to medical treatment as well. Unfortunately, there have been many before you > who were only interested in their own income.

My goal is to help people get out of pain. I have a job that supports me just fine. > As I noted very few people really are concerned about others when they post > those > ads or testimonials. And unfortunately it shows up fairly quickly.

It’s a shame because people are being helped. Frustration with a problem tend to close the mind as well. > My apolgies that I extended less than the trust your signature implies. You > have attemped to help. Unfortunately for you, too many other people ahead of > you already poisoned the well in this newsgroup.

And that’s what I get for ASSUMING. Deb — Yesterday is history; tomorrow is a mystery; today is a gift; that’s why it’s called the Present.

Response:

> Please understand that many sleep disorders are life threatening. We take > this support site seriously. I’m glad you were helped by this. Unfortunately > a placebo effect will NOT help many people on this newsgroup.

I am responding to you again because your tone is more receptive. In regards to taking sleep disorders seriously, I do. My situation is one of insomia, neck and back problems from being abused by my ex-husband. I know how life threatening this stuff can be. However, I have helped my partner spread the word about these products and what they have done for me and others. We have helped children get better with the products which would dispell the placebo effect, but we adults tend to think too much. > No you didn’t. How clever. But your posting history makes it pretty clear. I > note that you won’t mention the address until someone sends you a private > email. Why?

Because my partner told me it was against policy. Once it becomes private e-mail, then it is OK to disclose everything. Besides, know one is going to read a bio in a public forum anyway. > No. One thing you will find is that I tend to be polite all the time. > Assertive is not impolite. It is refusing to allow others to endanger the > lives of others.

The products I use are completely safe. I don’t see how it would endanger anyone’s life. Medication… that’s a different story. > I’m supposed to be impressed that your partner in your business is into > multi-level marketing?

My partner is the business. I am his #1 customer i.e. his walking testimonial advertisement. I didn’t know I was trying to impress anything on you, let alone MLM. > And since you have a clear business association with your partner this means > you are not involved in a multi-level marketing arrangement. Unfortunately > facts do tend to speak for themselves.

I am involved, just not directly. > Deb, I’m truly glad you tried to help others. Yet, Internet etiquette bans > all forms of advertising in support groups.

I guess a testimonial would have been better, but it seems from your comments that others have already exposed the products to people on the NG. > You did it once, I was attempting to politely let you know this goes against > the philosophy on > newsgroup. So, cease and desist is a polite request that you learn to never > do it again.

I still don’t know about that "cease and disist" being polite. It comes off as being an order and I only have one set of parents. I can think of better ways. > By the way, you apology is welcome. Based on the tone of your original post, > it was pretty clear that you did not realize we would interpret this as > advertising. I tried to politely inform you of this. I am sorry if you got > angry. That was certainly not my intent.

No problem. > If openness bothers you, please don’t come back to the newsgroup.

Openness is honesty. > I’m sorry that you are so upset. I have attempted to maintain a civil tone, > because you clearly were attempting to help others. However, you also clearly > did not recognize how the newsgroup would act.

So far, it’s been 2 people in 1 day. Sould I feel lucky? > By the way – you don’t know how important this concept is for many of us on > this newsgroup.

Sure I do, that’s why I use it. It is for me. > Many of us (myself included) simply have no assurance that tomorrow really > will exist. This was again why I attempted to be polite in our conversation. > You clearly do seem to understand how important life is… And that it really > is a Present for us to enjoy and use to the > fullest.

Amen. Deb — Yesterday is history; tomorrow is a mystery; today is a gift; that’s why it’s called the Present.

Response:

Deb, You noted (sorry this will be out of order): > I still don’t know about that "cease and disist" > being polite. It comes off as being an order and > I only have one set of parents. I can think of > better ways.

Pardon me, but Ha! I couldn’t agree more. You are right about one set of parents. My sincere apologies if this seemed to be an order. I could probably use lots of reasons that my post was so curt. (There was very recently a flame fest due to someone with a similar post, which escalated out of control. Also I’ve had very serious health problems and tend to be less patient than I should be). But I certainly did not intend to be anything other than polite. My apologies that it came across otherwise. > In regards to taking sleep disorders seriously, > I do. My situation is one of insomia, neck and > back problems from being abused by my ex-husband. > I know how life threatening this stuff can be.

I would say you do. You certainly have my sympathy. We’ve helped several friends escape from such monstrous situations. There is no excuse for such behaviour, and I certainly wish the justice system took such problems more seriously. > The products I use are completely safe. I don’t > see how it would endanger anyone’s life. Medication… > that’s a different story.

Yes it is. Generally I do not recommend medication unless most other common sense methods have been attempted. And surgery is way down on the bottom of the list. We’ve had people die due to surgery. However, we’ve also had far too many people who due to denial and fear of medical treatments attempted non-effective techniques for their specific problems. They only to discovered years later that their denial resulted in permanent damage to their health (heart attack, congestive heart failure, stroke, to name just three problems we’ve seen!) I’m not saying your products may not help. But many times it should be wedded to medical treatment as well. Unfortunately, there have been many before you who were only interested in their own income. > I guess a testimonial would have been better, but it > seems from your comments that others have already > exposed the products to people on the NG.

Yup. And did a poor job of it. Even testimonials get shouted down. As I noted very few people really are concerned about others when they post those ads or testimonials. And unfortunately it shows up fairly quickly. > So far, it’s been 2 people in 1 day. Sould I > feel lucky?

Believe it or not, yes. I continue to attempt to apply my own personal beliefs to everything that I do. About two months ago, during that flame fest I mentioned, the newsgroup became quite ugly in tone and approach. I attempted to be the voice of moderation, which only caused one to turn on me. That person has since left. I am sorry about that because he has a great deal of experience and insight to contribute. >> By the way – you don’t know how important this >> concept is for many of us on this newsgroup. > Sure I do, that’s why I use it. It is for me.

My apolgies that I extended less than the trust your signature implies. You have attemped to help. Unfortunately for you, too many other people ahead of you already poisoned the well in this newsgroup. Grace and peace, =jbf= John B. Fisher

Response:

Ferber?

admin — Thu, 14 Jan 1999 00:00:00 +0000

Question:

What is the Ferber or whatever, I’ve seen it mentioned when you talk about getting a baby to sleep through the night. Marie

Response:

What is the Ferber or whatever, I’ve seen it mentioned when you talk about getting a baby to sleep through the night. Marie

The Ferber method is named after the author of a book called "Solve Your Child’s Sleep Problems" (Richard Ferber, M.D., Dir of Center for pediatric Sleep Disorders, Children’s Hospital, Boston) published by Simon & Schuster, 1985. It is a process of gradually teaching your child to fall asleep alone. Although Dr. Ferber says the method will work with any infant/child over the age of 6 months, I personally waited until my daughters were over 12 months. Many people find this method highly controversial. You may want to read the book before deciding if it is for you. Ivy Shafer, mom to Martha (8/7/92), Molly (2/21/97) and ? (due 8/15/99)