Sleeping problem
Question:
. All babies are going to have times when they cry. You can’t solve crying by simply picking them up. There wouldn’t be such a thing a colic if it was that easy.
I read a quote from anthropologist Kathy Dettwyler who studied people living in Mali. The babies there are carried constantly, nursed as often as they want – and this often means several times an hour – sleep with their parents and nurse as much as they want through the night. Dettwyler said that not only did she not see any babies with colic, when she asked the women about it, they all said they had never seen anything like it, ever. So maybe colic could be eliminated if babies were carried, slept with their mothers, and nursed very frequently. Just a thought. Teresa
Response:
The habit of sleeping on boob just needed to be broken. I and hubby comfort
her at night by patting and petting, speaking softly, turning on the mobile for the music. We don’t turn on the lights, but make sure she is comfortable. Change the diaper if need. Check her temperature to make sure she isn’t cold. The first night she got really mad that we were not giving her the boob. I don’t think fear ever entered into it. She was just plain mad. Second night was 15 minutes of whining and fussing. Third night was 4 minutes of meows and the eyes didn’t even open up. Tonight, well we’ll just have to see. There have been, and will be more, times in the past that I’ve been on the toilet, shower, had soapy hands, dirty hands, etc. that I could not go directly to the baby and touch or pick her up when she was crying. This lag in getting to her will not scar her brain.
I agree. I don’t mind letting a baby cry, but I DO mind letting a baby cry out of fear. What I was saying is that you can let your baby cry at night without leaving the room–then the cries will be cries of anger at not getting her own way (which has to happen now and then) rather than cries of fear (which is not healthy). To try to be there the very second the baby cries is going to make you go crazy – you have to cut yourself some slack. Feeling guilty over 30 seconds is a waste of time.
But the Ferber method advises waiting longer than 30 seconds. It also advises increasing intervals, so at some point your baby may be crying for 15 or 30 minutes. I don’t see anything wrong with letting a baby cry a bit, provided that you stay and reassure her, but if your 6-month-old is screaming for 30 minutes for the mother that has disappeared, that cannot be healthy for the relationship. –Suzanne
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I’m not being nasty or starting an arguement but what about mothers with twins or more? Kinda hard to do that with two/three even four kids! Neither of my kids had colic anyway! 
Susan ach ignore me this happieness thing is getting to be a joke now – three days of happiness! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – . All babies are going to have times when they cry. You can’t solve crying by simply picking them up. There wouldn’t be such a thing a colic if it was that easy. I read a quote from anthropologist Kathy Dettwyler who studied people living in Mali. The babies there are carried constantly, nursed as often as they want – and this often means several times an hour – sleep with their parents and nurse as much as they want through the night. Dettwyler said that not only did she not see any babies with colic, when she asked the women about it, they all said they had never seen anything like it, ever. So maybe colic could be eliminated if babies were carried, slept with their mothers, and nursed very frequently. Just a thought. Teresa
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I would like contact details so I can get hold of those who will decide whether to make you a counsellor or not. I am going to recommend they deny you your counsellorship due to an inherent lack of suitable empathy and sympathy. You should know better as a counsellor to laugh at others’ misfortunes!!!! Mandy PS – to those who think I am flaming Beverly, my tongue is firmly in my cheek and I am joking! PPS – to Beverly – before you ask…. yes, I *have* been talking to Linda!!! PPS – to Linda – sorry to drop you in it!! HUGE BIG <g 
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Poor you! no sleep and being bitten! Beverley sorry, did you expect a helpful reply?<g(just in case anyone thinks I’m serious!)
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would like to see some solid research to demonstrate long-term benefits before it would be something I would do with my children. My reference to research comes from Ferber’s book–and, I assume, from his research as Director of the Center for Pediatric Sleep Disorders at Children’s Hospital in Boston. (I’m not going to get into quoting research here…the book is in paperback and probably a staple at libraries.) It certainly appears that experts can disagree on this issue. By extension, all I ask is that parents be allowed to disagree–and those who choose not to co-sleep not be sent on a guilt trip about the damage they’re doing to their children. (You’ll notice I haven’t attacked co-sleeping *at all*.)
I have read Ferber’s book and there is no reference to actual research (unless some has been added to a later edition.) I agree that you did not attack co-sleeping, but you said that there were benefits to babies from Ferber’s approach. I have not seen any research that shows benefits, and was asking if you had. Teresa
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I read the book and I still disagree. I also think that there are all kinds of different kids in the world. What you described with your child, wouldn’t have worked with mine. She was/is just too intense. She would be the one covered in the separate advice relating to kids who get so upset that they vomit. In the book you are advised that, if they vomit, don’t make a big deal, just clean it up and leave the room again so that they don’t learn to vomit to get your attention. I know people who have high strung kids who have tried it. One friend now has a daughter who cries all day and clings to her in desperation when they cross the threshold to the nursery, presumaby because she thinks she will be abandoned. Another friend has kids who play cheerfully in their crib by themselves after Ferber. It is kid specific. SM
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So, if co-sleeping is not an option, for whatever reason, is having a baby who awakens several times a night (for months or years) alone in a dark room and has to cry for assistance to fall back asleep better than having a few nights of crying which teaches a baby that a quiet, dark room means sleep time and enables the baby to fall back asleep without crying?
No. But I would prefer a sort of modified Ferber approach: instead of disappearing altogether, I’d suggest simply laying the baby down and sitting in a chair with little response. I would also start this at age 12 mos or so, when a child can understand a parent’s words ("I am not going to pick you up tonight; I am just going to sit here") and can be reasoned with to a small degree. You would still get tears, but they would be tears of anger, not fear. I think it is okay for a baby to be angry and not get his own way sometimes, but I don’t think it does any good to be afraid that Mommy and Daddy are gone and won’t come when I call. I submit that over the course of 6 months, a baby who has to cry, wait for mom or dad to come in, and be rocked or nursed back to sleep several times a night suffers more cumulative distress than a baby who was subjected to the Ferber method for a few nights.
I disagree. When a parent responds to a child’s cries of fear and lonelines, however many times a night, the child learns that his parents will be there for him EVERY SINGLE TIME. Very eventually, the child will grow confident and sure of himself and his importance in the family. The baby who can’t depend on his parents to respond will learn that Mom & Dad cannot be trusted. He will learn to sleep on his own, I have no doubt. But the price might be a crack in the foundation of his relationship with his parents. A few extra hour of sleep is, in my opinion, not worth damaging the parent/child relationship. –Suzanne
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<snip That’s how we as adults see it and make sense out of it, because we have highly developed brains and can rationalize that we are not abandoning our children, but teaching them a lifelong skill. On the other hand, how does the child see it? –Suzanne
It was not abandoning the baby that made her cry in the middle of the night, but just plain pissed off that she wanted to fall asleep on the boob!!!! Sad to say, I got her in the habit of falling asleep on boob in the middle of the night because it was easier to do that when she woke up. Now I’m paying the piper. horvathk at email dot uah dot edu
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would like to see some solid research to demonstrate long-term benefits before it would be something I would do with my children.
My reference to research comes from Ferber’s book–and, I assume, from his research as Director of the Center for Pediatric Sleep Disorders at Children’s Hospital in Boston. (I’m not going to get into quoting research here…the book is in paperback and probably a staple at libraries.) It certainly appears that experts can disagree on this issue. By extension, all I ask is that parents be allowed to disagree–and those who choose not to co-sleep not be sent on a guilt trip about the damage they’re doing to their children. (You’ll notice I haven’t attacked co-sleeping *at all*.) -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.
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Mandy- unfortunately you took away the option I would suggest- sleeping with you. I am not sure what else to suggest to you. Maybe she could just come into your bed at 4am so you could get a few good hours sleep? Lani
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Poor you! no sleep and being bitten! Beverley sorry, did you expect a helpful reply?<g(just in case anyone thinks I’m serious!)
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Try keeping the room totally dark instead of having a dim light. Any light will cause her to see the you and things she enjoys playing with, and will be a distraction. Sit near her and let her know you are there. She may fuss a bit, but it will be because she is mad that you won’t play with her, not because she is afraid you have abandoned her. (Different from Ferber.) The fact that she doesn’t seem to want anything from you suggests she might be able to fal asleep on her own. Turn the light off and try going back to bed without saying or doing much, and see what happens. She may get bored and fall right asleep by herself. –Suzanne
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If I were you, I’d go to the library and get out several books on solving sleep problems – you may find one that works for you. My pediatrician told me that once the baby reaches 15 pounds, they no longer need feedings in the middle of the night – after 15 pounds, it becomes a comfort habit, rather than a necessity. It sounds to me like she’s trying to get some extra cuddling and playing. At 8 months (14.5 pounds) my son was up every 90 minutes for a feeding. As far as Ferber goes, for many people it does work. What it entails is comforting your child at longer and longer intervals until she learns to sleep on her own. You may have heard that the Ferber technique is simply crying it out, which it isn’t. If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense. Good Luck Heidi
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A great book I’m surprised to not have seen mentioned yet is "Nighttime parenting" by Dr. William Sears (a pediatrician and father of I believe 8 children). It’s an excellent book for anti-Ferber types like me. Elsie
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -If I were you, I’d go to the library and get out several books on solving sleep problems – you may find one that works for you. My pediatrician told me that once the baby reaches 15 pounds, they no longer need feedings in the middle of the night – after 15 pounds, it becomes a comfort habit, rather than a necessity. It sounds to me like she’s trying to get some extra cuddling and playing. At 8 months (14.5 pounds) my son was up every 90 minutes for a feeding. As far as Ferber goes, for many people it does work. What it entails is comforting your child at longer and longer intervals until she learns to sleep on her own. You may have heard that the Ferber technique is simply crying it out, which it isn’t. If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense. Good Luck Heidi
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I am one of the few who hasn’t read Ferber (I’m in UK) but knows of the techniques – i didn’t even know there was a name to go with it! I believe it can work for some and not for others (it all depends on the child and the parents stamina) I am glad to say it worked for us and we now have our twins in a great sleeping habit – they no longer us to put them into bed asleep – which was a killer when you have squeaky floorboards! Anyway all the best Susan http://twins.cjb.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sentence that people who are opposed to the Ferber technique have really not "read" the book is not necessarily true. I have read that book and also own a copy of it in home library. And yet I am opposed to many of his methodologies and some of his absurd conclusions. I have no desire to get into any sort of debate about these sleeping arrangments. However, I find that anytime somebody opposes a particular method, a rather presumptuous assumption is made that one has not read the book. One can read the book and memorize it, but that still may go against the grain of one’s philosophy or natural inclination. Savithri — Eadem mutata resurgo
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The sentence that people who are opposed to the Ferber technique have really not "read" the book is not necessarily true. I have read that book and also own a copy of it in home library. And yet I am opposed to many of his methodologies and some of his absurd conclusions. I have no desire to get into any sort of debate about these sleeping arrangments. However, I find that anytime somebody opposes a particular method, a rather presumptuous assumption is made that one has not read the book. One can read the book and memorize it, but that still may go against the grain of one’s philosophy or natural inclination. Savithri — Eadem mutata resurgo
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Well said Dr Dallape! Couldn’t have put it better myself! Beverley
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I own the book too, read it cover to cover twice and still didn’t like it. Did like the chapter on night terrors vs nightmares though (my son had night terrors). Elsie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The sentence that people who are opposed to the Ferber technique have really not "read" the book is not necessarily true. I have read that book and also own a copy of it in home library. And yet I am opposed to many of his methodologies and some of his absurd conclusions. I have no desire to get into any sort of debate about these sleeping arrangments. However, I find that anytime somebody opposes a particular method, a rather presumptuous assumption is made that one has not read the book. One can read the book and memorize it, but that still may go against the grain of one’s philosophy or natural inclination. Savithri — Eadem mutata resurgo
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Suzanne, I am going through this "wakes up in the middle of the night" thing right now with my 9 month old, Erica. From the time she came home from the hospital, she slept in a bassinet at the side of my bed (waterbed) until she was 6 months old. She then graduated to a baby crib in her own room. I would nurse her at night in my bed from the start. The *changing of the beds* didn’t even cause an eyelash blink. She got into the habit of falling back to sleep at night attached to the boob. At first she ate very well. An infant needs the nursing. At 8 months of age she would simply fall asleep on the boob, within seconds sometime. Clearly, she was not hungry, simply falling asleep attached as habit had formed. There have been some nights that she has slept through without waking. (9PM to 6AM). So I knew she could do this. The habit of sleeping on boob just needed to be broken. (That’s getting work this week) I and hubby comfort her at night by patting and petting, speaking softly, turning on the mobile for the music. We don’t turn on the lights, but make sure she is comfortable. Change the diaper if need. Check her temperature to make sure she isn’t cold. The first night she got really mad that we were not giving her the boob. I don’t think fear ever entered into it. She was just plain mad. Second night was 15 minutes of whining and fussing. Third night was 4 minutes of meows and the eyes didn’t even open up. Tonight, well we’ll just have to see. There have been, and will be more, times in the past that I’ve been on the toilet, shower, had soapy hands, dirty hands, etc. that I could not go directly to the baby and touch or pick her up when she was crying. This lag in getting to her will not scar her brain. Not getting to her within seconds of her making a sound will not change that she can depend on us. To try to be there the very second the baby cries is going to make you go crazy – you have to cut yourself some slack. Feeling guilty over 30 seconds is a waste of time. The baby picking up on my feelings of confidence, security, and love is much more relevant than getting picked up physically. All babies are going to have times when they cry. You can’t solve crying by simply picking them up. There wouldn’t be such a thing a colic if it was that easy. It is very obvious that she loves and trusts both daddy and mommy. She learned from the start that we will respond to her. If she didn’t have it by now, I’d be having serious problems with her. Erica is very confident and sure of herself…the most confident of any baby I currently know. She does not need a pacifier or her thumb (she plays with the pacifier like a little toy, waving it around and tossing it). She doesn’t fuss or whine just to fuss and whine – lordy, I know babies that do this, they can’t do anything without the mommy being attached to them they are so insecure. She wants to try new food, new toys, new games with us, grandparents, or with other babies. Wants to play at 100 mph all the time. She is bright, smiling, laughing, loves to see people and go places in public. Very balanced and healthy. With me, without me, I know she will be just fine. I’m correcting the bad habit I formed – not stigmatizing my child. horvathk at email dot uah dot edu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So, if co-sleeping is not an option, for whatever reason, is having a baby who awakens several times a night (for months or years) alone in a dark room and has to cry for assistance to fall back asleep better than having a few nights of crying which teaches a baby that a quiet, dark room means sleep time and enables the baby to fall back asleep without crying? No. But I would prefer a sort of modified Ferber approach: instead of disappearing altogether, I’d suggest simply laying the baby down and sitting in a chair with little response. I would also start this at age 12 mos or so, when a child can understand a parent’s words ("I am not going to pick you up tonight; I am just going to sit here") and can be reasoned with to a small degree. You would still get tears, but they would be tears of anger, not fear. I think it is okay for a baby to be angry and not get his own way sometimes, but I don’t think it does any good to be afraid that Mommy and Daddy are gone and won’t come when I call. I submit that over the course of 6 months, a baby who has to cry, wait for mom or dad to come in, and be rocked or nursed back to sleep several times a night suffers more cumulative distress than a baby who was subjected to the Ferber method for a few nights. I disagree. When a parent responds to a child’s cries of fear and lonelines, however many times a night, the child learns that his parents will be there for him EVERY SINGLE TIME. Very eventually, the child will grow confident and sure of himself and his importance in the family. The baby who can’t depend on his parents to respond will learn that Mom & Dad cannot be trusted. He will learn to sleep on his own, I have no doubt. But the price might be a crack in the foundation of his relationship with his parents. A few extra hour of sleep is, in my opinion, not worth damaging the parent/child relationship. –Suzanne
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I have to go with Joy on this one…..She’s got this mommy backing her side of the discussion. You go girl!!! horvathk at email dot uah dot edu – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense. I agree…it seems Ferber is demonized, and I would guess that most of those who dislike his methods (as they interpret them) haven’t read the book. The whole point is that everyone–babies and adults–becomes accustomed to falling asleep under certain conditions, and everyone–babies and adults–wakes slightly during the night during transitions between different types of sleep (REM, deep sleep, etc.). Normally, adults drop right back off to sleep during these slight wakings–unless something is wrong. (He makes the analogy that if you fell asleep with a pillow and woke slightly to find it gone, you’d realize it was missing and wake more fully until you found it. If someone stole it altogether, you’d get upset and become really awake.) If babies become accustomed to falling asleep only when they’re being fed or rocked, when they wake slightly to find themselves in a different environment, they don’t fall back asleep and move onto the next phase of sleep–they wake fully and scream because something’s wrong. If, however, you accustom them to falling asleep in a quiet, dark room on their own, they don’t fully wake up during those "transitional" wakings, and are able to fall back asleep, moving onto the next phase. Also–as others have mentioned on occasion, the method doesn’t exactly involve letting the baby "cry it out". You just go in at steadily increasing intervals up to 15 minutes (if I remember correctly) if the baby is still crying, stay a few minutes and pat and/or speak softly to the baby to comfort him/her. You can start going in at 30 seconds if that’s what you need to do. I guess that *usually* if parents are committed to helping the baby learn to fall asleep on his/her own, it only takes a few nights before the baby becomes accustomed to the falling asleep. Ferber really doesn’t recommend this stuff until after the baby is 5 months old, either. My husband and I have (within the last week) realized that while our 10-week-old was sleeping with us, none of us slept well. My husband has allergies and sneezes and blows his nose a lot at night, which wakes the baby (often making him cry). I would end up letting him suck on my pinky (he hates pacifiers) or nursing him to get him back to sleep–every 2-3 hours. (Helps explain his 19 lb. weight at 9 weeks.) He never slept more than 3 hours a night until last week, when we started putting him in his crib. We didn’t exactly follow Ferber–we’d never let him cry for more than two minutes before going in to rub his back, and if he seemed really upset we’d pick him up and rock him–but now, a week later, he usually falls asleep with no crying after we put him down (he just fusses around for a minute or two, like he’s trying to get comfortable), and he’s sleeping for 4 or 5 hour stretches at night. (Admittedly, he’s a big breastfed baby, so doesn’t *need* to eat as much, but still, it’s a lot better than when he was sleeping with us.) In short, co-sleeping doesn’t work for everyone, and I don’t think it’s evil to have a baby sleep in his own crib in a different room. If someone wants help in getting their older baby to fall asleep on his/her own, it’s certainly fine to bring up the benefits of co-sleeping, but don’t expect that will be the solution to every sleeping problem. I would recommend reading Ferber–he really isn’t the evil guy some make him out to be, and he’s a pediatric sleep specialist in Boston (or was when the book was written), so his recommendations are based on actual research as well as anecdotal evidence from people for whom it worked. If you find the methods appalling, by all means, don’t use them. But for some, they work, and if they cause a mommy and daddy to be better rested and therefore more able to be really *there* for a baby during the day, they can’t be all bad. Alright, end of lecture. Sorry if I’ve offended…just needed to get the other side in somewhere. -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.
Response:
Joy W. wrote . Just recognize that some people will find the costs associated with the Ferber method (costs to both baby and frazzled parents) worth it if it means they can be more responsive, attentive parents after a night’s sleep.
My observations have actually been a bit different. I have worked with several parents whose babies stopped gaining weight after they used the Ferber method. What I observed was that the parents had "steeled themselves" not to respond to the baby’s crying at night (other than the timed visits) and that this also made them less responsive to the baby’s cries during the day. As well, the baby had learned to suck on a thumb or pacifier or soothe himself in other ways, so that what often happened was the baby would cry, the parents would be slow in responding, the baby would soothe himself and stop crying so the parents would figure he couldn’t really be hungry, and so on. Of course, eventually he would be fed – but the net result was a reduction in the total number of feedings and a drop in weight gain. Also, it concerned me that the parents were overall less responsive to the babies. (Not to mention that babies need some longer periods of uninterrupted sleep as well–sleep they will never get if they can’t get through the transitional phases without fully waking. It’s not just selfishness on the part of parents–there are also benefits to baby.)
Do you have some evidence of these "benefits to the baby?" I found James McKenna’s research very interesting. He studied mothers and babies sleeping together and apart, and found that babies who sleep close to their mothers are stimulated to partially wake many times during the night, while those who sleep alone go into a deeper sleep. However, his research says that this is NOT a good thing, because those babies have more episodes of stopping breathing. Remember that throughout history and in most parts of the world, babies have always slept next to their mothers, and certainly were not expected to be alone in a dark room away from everyone else. There has also been research (including some from Harvard) on the high levels of stress hormones produced in babies who are sleeping alone, and some researchers have expressed concerns that these high levels, at a time when the baby’s brain is developing rapidly, may have some long-term effects. Now, I don’t know of any research that shows long-term effects either way, and I think parents will make whatever choices suit them and their families. But I am inclined towards the conservative approach. Since babies have slept with their mothers for thousands of generations around the world, and this "crying it out" idea is relatively new and used in only a few countries, I would like to see some solid research to demonstrate long-term benefits before it would be something I would do with my children. Teresa
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Also–as others have mentioned on occasion, the method doesn’t exactly involve letting the baby "cry it out". You just go in at steadily increasing intervals up to 15 minutes (if I remember correctly) if the baby is still crying, stay a few minutes and pat and/or speak softly to the baby to comfort him/her.
That’s how we as adults see it and make sense out of it, because we have highly developed brains and can rationalize that we are not abandoning our children, but teaching them a lifelong skill. On the other hand, how does the child see it? Yes, I understand that we have to do some things for their own good, but leaving a baby crying in a room alone, even though WE ADULTS KNOW that we are going to enter again in a few minutes, will feel like abandonment to them. This is not saying "no candy" in a store and letting them be pissed off. This is leaving our 5 or 6 month olds in a dark room alone and not responding to their cries for what may seem like an eternity to them. –Suzanne
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few minutes, will feel like abandonment to them. This is not saying "no candy" in a store and letting them be pissed off. This is leaving our 5 or 6 month olds in a dark room alone and not responding to their cries for what may seem like an eternity to them. –Suzanne
So, if co-sleeping is not an option, for whatever reason, is having a baby who awakens several times a night (for months or years) alone in a dark room and has to cry for assistance to fall back asleep better than having a few nights of crying which teaches a baby that a quiet, dark room means sleep time and enables the baby to fall back asleep without crying? I submit that over the course of 6 months, a baby who has to cry, wait for mom or dad to come in, and be rocked or nursed back to sleep several times a night suffers more cumulative distress than a baby who was subjected to the Ferber method for a few nights. If we were talking about letting a baby cry every night for weeks, forget it. It wouldn’t be worth the misery the baby (and the parents) had to go through. However, as much as it would break my heart for my child to be miserable during that time, if it only took a few nights, for me the benefits of having a well-rested family–and a child who knows how to fall asleep on his own–would be worth it. If it’s not worth it to you, by all means, don’t do it. That said, I have a ten-week-old. I don’t claim to be an expert–I may be singing a completely different tune six months from now. However, I *have* read Ferber’s book, and simply felt the need to address the venomous statements I’ve seen on these newsgroups about his methods. I doubt those who disapprove of Ferber truly feel that the methods described in his book are true child abuse or neglect. (If you do, you probably haven’t read the book and don’t understand the process.) I suspect that most who disapprove of Ferber believe that it’s just too cruel to let a baby "feel abandoned" for those periods of time necessary to teach him/her to fall asleep alone–and if this is how you feel, by all means *don’t do it*. Just recognize that some people will find the costs associated with the Ferber method (costs to both baby and frazzled parents) worth it if it means they can be more responsive, attentive parents after a night’s sleep. (Not to mention that babies need some longer periods of uninterrupted sleep as well–sleep they will never get if they can’t get through the transitional phases without fully waking. It’s not just selfishness on the part of parents–there are also benefits to baby.) -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.
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If I were you, I’d read the book first and then pass judgment. Once you have read Ferber, along with other books, you may be able to find the technique that will suit you and your child best. Even if you don’t necessary want to use the Ferber method, much of what he says makes a lot of sense.
I agree…it seems Ferber is demonized, and I would guess that most of those who dislike his methods (as they interpret them) haven’t read the book. The whole point is that everyone–babies and adults–becomes accustomed to falling asleep under certain conditions, and everyone–babies and adults–wakes slightly during the night during transitions between different types of sleep (REM, deep sleep, etc.). Normally, adults drop right back off to sleep during these slight wakings–unless something is wrong. (He makes the analogy that if you fell asleep with a pillow and woke slightly to find it gone, you’d realize it was missing and wake more fully until you found it. If someone stole it altogether, you’d get upset and become really awake.) If babies become accustomed to falling asleep only when they’re being fed or rocked, when they wake slightly to find themselves in a different environment, they don’t fall back asleep and move onto the next phase of sleep–they wake fully and scream because something’s wrong. If, however, you accustom them to falling asleep in a quiet, dark room on their own, they don’t fully wake up during those "transitional" wakings, and are able to fall back asleep, moving onto the next phase. Also–as others have mentioned on occasion, the method doesn’t exactly involve letting the baby "cry it out". You just go in at steadily increasing intervals up to 15 minutes (if I remember correctly) if the baby is still crying, stay a few minutes and pat and/or speak softly to the baby to comfort him/her. You can start going in at 30 seconds if that’s what you need to do. I guess that *usually* if parents are committed to helping the baby learn to fall asleep on his/her own, it only takes a few nights before the baby becomes accustomed to the falling asleep. Ferber really doesn’t recommend this stuff until after the baby is 5 months old, either. My husband and I have (within the last week) realized that while our 10-week-old was sleeping with us, none of us slept well. My husband has allergies and sneezes and blows his nose a lot at night, which wakes the baby (often making him cry). I would end up letting him suck on my pinky (he hates pacifiers) or nursing him to get him back to sleep–every 2-3 hours. (Helps explain his 19 lb. weight at 9 weeks.) He never slept more than 3 hours a night until last week, when we started putting him in his crib. We didn’t exactly follow Ferber–we’d never let him cry for more than two minutes before going in to rub his back, and if he seemed really upset we’d pick him up and rock him–but now, a week later, he usually falls asleep with no crying after we put him down (he just fusses around for a minute or two, like he’s trying to get comfortable), and he’s sleeping for 4 or 5 hour stretches at night. (Admittedly, he’s a big breastfed baby, so doesn’t *need* to eat as much, but still, it’s a lot better than when he was sleeping with us.) In short, co-sleeping doesn’t work for everyone, and I don’t think it’s evil to have a baby sleep in his own crib in a different room. If someone wants help in getting their older baby to fall asleep on his/her own, it’s certainly fine to bring up the benefits of co-sleeping, but don’t expect that will be the solution to every sleeping problem. I would recommend reading Ferber–he really isn’t the evil guy some make him out to be, and he’s a pediatric sleep specialist in Boston (or was when the book was written), so his recommendations are based on actual research as well as anecdotal evidence from people for whom it worked. If you find the methods appalling, by all means, don’t use them. But for some, they work, and if they cause a mommy and daddy to be better rested and therefore more able to be really *there* for a baby during the day, they can’t be all bad. Alright, end of lecture. Sorry if I’ve offended…just needed to get the other side in somewhere. -Joy Remove numbers from address to respond via email.
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Hi I am cross-posting this to both parenting AND breastfeeding groups as I have received very good advice from both in the past. My 6.5 mo daughter is feeding every 2 hours during the night, and has been for ages. However, at about 1am she wakes to feed as normal, falls asleep on the breast as normal, but when I put her back into her cot, she wakes up. It takes about 10 mins to get her back to sleep. She doesn’t cry or show any signs of teething or distress. She is just awake and wanting to get up. I keep the light dim (she sleeps in our room and we have a light on dim and have had since her birth),and I don’t talk to her. At about 4am, an hour after her last feed, she wakes up. She is not hungry, and again doesn’t cry. She just rolls around and crawls up and down in her cot playing with her blanket etc. Wide awake and wanting to get up. I can get her back to sleep if I am prepared to rock her etc for up to 45 mins, but I am often so tired from previously disturbed sleep I put her into bed with me and she sleeps fine there. I don’t want to get into the habit of her sleeping with us, though, as we only have a double bed and my dh is 6ft4". Either he takes the chance of squashing her or he can’t sleep properly, which he has to due to a pressurised job. Before anyone suggests it – we can’t afford a bigger bed! lol This has happened for the last 3 nights in a row, so looks set to be a habit. Nothing has changed in her routine or anything like that. I hope some of you have some ideas on what I can do! I am feeling the sleep deprivation, but cannot sleep during the day to make up for it. Mandy (who does not believe in Ferber and letting the child cry.)
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At what age is it safe for a baby to sleep in a waterbed with her parents? When she can roll over? sit up? Thanks, Suellen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes We had a California King waterbed so the size of the bed helped make more room for all of us. The warmth and gentle rocking motion of the waterbed also helped put the babies to sleep. You might try leaving the hot water bottle in the cot, tucked next to her, to imitate the warmth and presence of another person. It might fool her. Good luck. Prayer helps.
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This may be too obvious and you may have already tried it or something similar, but here’s a thought. You say when she feels the lowering she starts to wake up / cry. Maybe if you eliminated that feeling. Can you sort of kneel next to it and slide her onto the cot?
Also, having lowered her in, stay leaning over on top of her (ie when she was being carried, her chest was resting against your chest, so when you put her down, kneel down next to the cot and keep your chest pressed against hers). Then only move very, very gradually (after several minutes) and keep contact of some sort (hand on her tummy, stroking her head) for even longer. — C Mama to Peter (2y 9mo), Isabel (15 months) Georgia and Anna (5 months)
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In my last rambling message, I just talked about your problem about your child who wants to sleep with you but didn’t offer a suggestion on how to put her down. We have found that we cannot put Jane down onto her back without her waking up so we put her down on her stomach. This way she has pressure on her stomach all the way down and then, if she startles, it seems as though she doesn’t awaken as easily. It’s a bit trickier though. DH and my mom prefer to rock her to sleep over their arm so that she is already face down when she goes to sleep. I carry her in the cradle position and then manage to flip her over as I put her down. Good luck, Susan M.
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Mandy, we went through the same thing when Mia was around that age and I sympathize!! BTW, we’ve had a family bed since the day she was born, but after a couple of… er… accidents I’m hesitant to leave her unattended in our bed; makes for lots of running frantically to the bedroom every time I hear a peep from the monitor. We tried putting Mia in her playpen but it was the downward motion that woke her every time. Finally I started putting her in her infant car seat/carrier; I still do that about 50 percent of the time, even though she now has a toddler bed which is easier to put her down in. The trick is to squat down next to the car seat and settle the baby in without delatching her. Bend awkwardly over the carrier until the baby stops wiggling/sighing, then pop your nipple free! The baby likes the closeness of the infant seat so might not wake as easily. If you dare, move the infant seat with baby inside to a quiet corner of the house. Mia sleeps better if I put a blanket over her, even if it’s warm in the house. Good luck! You may find this improves on its own as your baby gets older. Jessica — Little bugs have littler bugs upon their backs to bite ‘em, And littler bugs have littler bugs, and on _ad infinitum_.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage). We used to have THE most difficult time getting our 7 month old Matthew to sleep in his crib – it was ALWAYS laying him down that woke him up. I’ve discovered this "trick" that works every time now! We use the Baby Sling – I’ll get Matthew to fall asleep in the sling, so that he’s already in reclined position (i.e., he’s leaning back so that there is an even pressure across his back). Once he’s sound asleep, I’ll stand over his crib, GENTLY lay him down and then slide the sling over my head so that he’s then laying on the sling. Because he already has a steady pressure across his back, it doesn’t seem to disturb him in the least when I lay him down.
I am so glad that someone else uses this method! I actually start with DD in a sling – but with my arms around her and rocking her as if I am holding her without the sling – then I gradually remove the pressure of my arms (this seems to be when she stirs the most), allowing the sling to take up all of her weight. Once this is done, then I simply slip her, sling and all in to the cot and she is fine. From my experience it is the pressure of my arms that seems to be the major issue. Kylie (Mum to Jocelyn 20 weeks)
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You have heaps of great ideas, although it sounds to me that you know what suits you and your baby and are just getting confused by all those other messages we get everyday. Thought you might like to hear from someone a little further down the line. My nightmare sleeper is now nearly six and goes to sleep willingly easily and soundly. I usually see her just before we are due to get up in the am, which is great ’cause I love those early morning cuddles (although it doesn’t make getting out of bed in the winter any easier) Ironically her sister nearly 4 used to be my ‘good’ sleeper and it is she who takes the longest these days. I figure they all need some extra loving at some stage it just we don’t know when it will happen and how long it will last. By the way both of my girls are delightful independant children who show no signs of having been spoilt.
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If co-sleeping works, then by all means do it! I’m convinced that I’m a better parent during the day when I get good sleep at night. Sometimes I just need to sleep without little poky toes and kicky feet, so here’s what works to keep my little 5 month old asleep during the transition to the co-sleeper: I nurse him to sleep sitting up in bed next to his co-sleeper (sidecar arrangement. I lay him on a pillow so I can easily rock him onto his back while he still feels the warmth of my arms, and I cover him with blanket before I try to put him down. Swaddling might help too, though my son likes his arms free. I don’t try to move him until he’s in deep sleep–his arms are limp, lips slack and no rapid eye movement. If I put him butt down first, then gradually let his head down, it seems to work the best. Some people have also tried pre-warming the baby’s bed with a heating pad before putting the baby down, in case the cold sheets jar the baby awake. But be sure to REMOVE THE PAD before the baby goes in. I know someone who had a scorched mattress from a faulty heating pad. I’ve heard many places that when babies are about to make a developmental leap forward, they often regress a little emotionally and need more support and reassurance. Good luck. Kathryn Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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I had the same problem. I figured out that my daughter liked the coziness of sleeping in my arms. Try putting her next to you in bed, and let her fall asleep breastfeeding. The smell of you in the sheets will help her stay asleep. Our daughter now sleeps with us (since 6 months). She sleeps so much better! Good luck! I remember those nights that I spent hours trying to put my daughter down, only to have her wake up and I had to start over again. I can relate with the 6-7 attempts! LOL Monique (mommy to Cierra–going to be 1 yr old next week!)
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying. We have tried settling her again and patting her bum etc, but she is up on all 4’s, then crawling around (still crying!) then standing and yelling. She wakes herself up fully. I tried leaving her once crying – never again. She got so worked up, she vomited. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something. The impression I get is that the idea of sleeping in the cot frightens her. She sleeps fine on us and in bed. She sleeps fine if I walk around with her in my arms. But as soon as she senses that downward motion of putting her in the cot, we can forget her sleeping. But if I pick her up and rock her, she will fall asleep again. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well. Many thanks in advance Mandy
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Rachel & Bill wrote <snip also – i have issues with the word "spoiled". spoiled means gone bad. how can a child go bad if their needs are met? and breastfeeding on cue and night time parenting on cue (some kids do sleep better in a crib, some better with their parents). hope all works out well. rachel
I agree. Next time someone mentions spoiling a child use my motto. You can’t spoil a child with love or attention, just physical things (toys, etc.). Karen (mommy to Sean 12/95 and Daniel 3/98)
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This may be too obvious and you may have already tried it or something similar, but here’s a thought. You say when she feels the lowering she starts to wake up / cry. Maybe if you eliminated that feeling. Can you sort of kneel next to it and slide her onto the cot? I have a 3 month old. I nurse, and we are just past the transition of sleeping with Mom to moving to the cradle. I started to transition him by moving him away from me once he fell asleep. (We nurse lying down) So he was very used to being slid along the bed, away from Mom. From there, I put the cradle next to the bed, and would slide him just a little further, with a minimum drop, into the cradle. This is were we are now, and it works 90% of the time. Our next step will be to put him in his crib across the room, and then into his own room. But I’m waiting on those steps until he starts sleeping longer. Good Luck. — Carol
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What you say makes sense. If I put her to sleep next to me on the couch, for example, she is fine. It must be the downward movement. I am very curious to know why! I agree with you on the "spoilt" story – my hackles sure rose when I heard this opinion, but being a first time mom, I can’t afford to discount anything without considering it first. I love sleeping with her in my bed, but my dh is 6ft4" and we only have a double bed, so it is a bit uncomfortable when she is with us the wholed night! My LLL has that book "The family bed", so I will borrow it and read it. Thanks for the help! Mandy
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Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying.
My dd is 12.5 months old and has always been a crummy sleeper. We had the same problem with lying her down as well. I have no magical solution but can tell you what my friends with similar children and I have done. Basically, we have just hung in there and, as our children have grown older, they have become better and better. Just after Jane’s 1st birthday, she fell asleep on her own (in our bed but without bf’ing or rocking) and slept right through the night two nights in a row. It didn’t last but now she gets up only once a night. Prior to her first birthday, she was up every two hours all night every night for a month. Buoyed by her recent sucess at putting herself to sleep, I have experimented with rubbing her back when she wakes up – I have had over a 50% success rate – something that she couldn’t do before. I just keep trying these things and find tht she eventually can do them. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something.
Jane was exactly the same way. She would wake up with a prolonged startle reflex and be scared out of her wits. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well.
I decided to ignore all of my friends with good sleepers and my ped when it came to this topic. Basically, all kids are different and you know deep down that your child is just not ready to sleep well on her own. I don’t think that there is anything that can really be done other than to avoid associating sleep time with bad stuff. i.e. scary things for your child like not being rocked or not getting whatever she needs. Another friend of mine had the same experience. She tried the Ferber thing and her child became clingy and upset. Now, her husband puts the baby to bed at night and she goes to sleep much more easily for him – she is more interested in her mother so stays awake longer for her. We haven’t done this but you may want to try this. At eight months though I think that they have separation anxiety and feel better being with mom – right up close. As I recall, I had to lie down with Jane at around 8 months to get her to sleep but, if I moved out of the bed, she would instantly waken. She went through a phase of doing this for about a month I think – then, I could get out of bed again and do a few things. I hear you about being stressed out and about receiving criticism about your dd sleeping with you. I have been there. Jane just demanded to sleep with us starting at 6 weeks. I walked the floor for up to four hours with her and the second I went to put her down, she would wake. At one point, I thought that I would actually fall asleep while walking. We had no other choice – but my mother and MIL are still scandalized by what we do – as our friends of ours with "easy" children. Sometimes it seems like a long haul and we wonder when will we ever get our bed back. I have a friend whose 4 year old just suddenly stopped sleeping with them. She says that, when you are first starting out, 2 – 4 years may sound long; however, when you are at the end of it, it seems short. I also absolutely love knowing where she is and that she is safe with us all night. We just take it one day at a time. Our daughter is hap-hap-happy and super outgoing. We feel that respecting her personality and needs at this time have contributed to this. No one who doesn’t have a child like this can ever really understand what you’re going through so you have to just listen to your instincts. You are not insane or a bad mother or out of control – you just won the baby lottery with a crummy sleeper and with a persistent child who is demanding to be close. I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage).
I am sorry that I don’t have anything more concrete to offer I can also recommend the Dr. Sears Nighttime Parenting and Parenting the High Needs Child. We took all the sleep related books out of the library and these are the only ones that rung any chord with us. I knew that what the others suggested would not work for Jane and our family. Good luck!! Susan M.
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I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage).
We used to have THE most difficult time getting our 7 month old Matthew to sleep in his crib – it was ALWAYS laying him down that woke him up. I’ve discovered this "trick" that works every time now! We use the Baby Sling – I’ll get Matthew to fall asleep in the sling, so that he’s already in reclined position (i.e., he’s leaning back so that there is an even pressure across his back). Once he’s sound asleep, I’ll stand over his crib, GENTLY lay him down and then slide the sling over my head so that he’s then laying on the sling. Because he already has a steady pressure across his back, it doesn’t seem to disturb him in the least when I lay him down. I used to SWEAR that his eyelids and his proximity to his crib were LINKED – the closer we got, the more he’d open his eyes… My theory is that the pressure of him leaning back in the sling isn’t too different than the pressure he would feel laying on his back in his crib. Whereas the pressure he/she feels from your arms is quite different than a mattress. I used to slide the sling out from under him, but I don’t bother anymore, in fact I’ll cover him up with it. I hope I’m making sense – and I assure you, it’s worked like a charm for us – plus, there’s so many other benefits of using a sling. — http://www.geocities.com/Nashville/Stage/9894/ Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying. We have tried settling her again and patting her bum etc, but she is up on all 4’s, then crawling around (still crying!) then standing and yelling. She wakes herself up fully. I tried leaving her once crying – never again. She got so worked up, she vomited. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something. The impression I get is that the idea of sleeping in the cot frightens her. She sleeps fine on us and in bed. She sleeps fine if I walk around with her in my arms. But as soon as she senses that downward motion of putting her in the cot, we can forget her sleeping. But if I pick her up and rock her, she will fall asleep again. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well. I am getting really stressed out. I don’t work, but my dh does, and the constant crying and battles to get her back to sleep during the night wake him. Sometimes I can put her down 6 – 7 times in a row (after going through the whole rocking-her-back-to-sleep saga) and she will wake every time. That’s why I now find it easier to just put her in bed with me. But now I have been criticised for spoiling her, and I have been told that she is crying as she wants to sleep with me and not alone. How can this be when I started putting her into bed with me only now that the sleep problem has worsened? I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage). Many thanks in advance Mandy
There are advocates for co-sleeping and for separate sleeping. I don’t think you can spoil a 8 months old baby. Of course she prefers sleeping with you! There are a lot of people on this newsgroup who did the family bed and they can answer questions about that better than I do. (We don’t co-sleep, except in the morning). If you are comfortable with your daughter sleeping in your bed and your dh is too, then just go for it and don’t listen to the critics, it is none of their business!! Do whatever feels comfortable for you. Dr. Sears babybook has a lot about co-sleeping. Beatrice
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I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage).
mandy, our daughter does some different things, but whe will wake up and cry if she is put into a playpen or crib. i am convinced that it is the downward movement, which is different from lying down. in any case, we decided soon after she was born that we were fine with her sleeping with us. we all get a lot more sleep. we do have her crib as a "sidecar" to our bed, and she occasionally sleeps there – the side is down. there has been a lot written about co-sleeping, or the family bed. you might want to read nighttime parenting by dr. william sears the family bed by tine thevenin for starters. i know that my daughter will move to a big bed when she’s ready, and she is soo independant and curious that i think my parenting style is working with her. also – i have issues with the word "spoiled". spoiled means gone bad. how can a child go bad if their needs are met? and breastfeeding on cue and night time parenting on cue (some kids do sleep better in a crib, some better with their parents). hope all works out well. rachel — Rachel – Mama to Mackenzie the toddler (may3/98) http://www.flash.net/~bira (updated 6/99) http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Shores/6929/ (cloth diapering site)
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Hi I have an 8 mo daughter who has a sleeping problem that seems to be getting worse. She usually falls asleep nursing or on my or my dh’s lap. When she is asleep, we quietly carry her through to our bedroom and lower her into her cot. As soon as she realises she is in the cot, she twists her body, wakes up and starts crying. We have tried settling her again and patting her bum etc, but she is up on all 4’s, then crawling around (still crying!) then standing and yelling. She wakes herself up fully. I tried leaving her once crying – never again. She got so worked up, she vomited. When she wakes up, it is almost like she is petrified of something. The impression I get is that the idea of sleeping in the cot frightens her. She sleeps fine on us and in bed. She sleeps fine if I walk around with her in my arms. But as soon as she senses that downward motion of putting her in the cot, we can forget her sleeping. But if I pick her up and rock her, she will fall asleep again. She will not go to sleep alone. If she is tired and sleepy and I put her in the cot, she wakes up fully, despite any patting, singing etc. She started this after night feeds, then when putting her down for the night, and now she does it with the daytime naps as well. I am getting really stressed out. I don’t work, but my dh does, and the constant crying and battles to get her back to sleep during the night wake him. Sometimes I can put her down 6 – 7 times in a row (after going through the whole rocking-her-back-to-sleep saga) and she will wake every time. That’s why I now find it easier to just put her in bed with me. But now I have been criticised for spoiling her, and I have been told that she is crying as she wants to sleep with me and not alone. How can this be when I started putting her into bed with me only now that the sleep problem has worsened? I have heard so many schools of thought on this one. Has anyone had a similar experience? What can I try? (I am prepared to try almost anything at this stage). Many thanks in advance Mandy
