DUI on Prozac (was "PROZAKIAN EYES" f(wd: Prozac Eyes)

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ever see the strange eyes of a "Prozakian"? You have if you’ve seen the photos of McDermott the Prozakian who went on a murderous rampage. AC Some studies of fluoxetine (Prozac) have shown the drug to produce a unique and long-lasting effect on sleep architecture:  an increase in eye movements in non-REM sleep, which is often referred to as "PROZAC EYES."  Schnenck and colleagues retrospectively studied this effect in 2650 adults with sleep disorders and found a strong (p<0.00001) association between the use of fluoxetine and prominent eye movements in non – REM sleep in these patients. Winkelman and coworkers determined that in five patients with depression, such eye movements persisted *7–19 months* after discontinuation of fluoxetine. This finding shows that the effects (of fluoxetine/Prozac) might be long-lasting and attests to the strong action of psychotropic medications on the central nervous system. Harvard Review of Psychiatry December 2000 Volume 8, Number 6; p. 301 REVIEW _The Effects of Antidepessants on Sleep:  A Review_ Jeffrey T. Gursky, MD, and Lois E. Krahn, MD Department of Psychiatry and Psychology The Sleep Disorders Center Mayo Clinic and Mayo Foundation Rochester, Minn.

So this would indicate that driving on Prozac is unlawful DUI and should be prosecuted as such … vigorously.

Response:

So this would indicate that driving on Prozac is unlawful DUI and should be prosecuted as such … vigorously.

It depends on how the state law is worded.   Some states, such as CA, make it illegal to drive under the influence of ANY drug which affects your ability to drive. The idea is that the person run down by an impaired driver doesn’t really care if the driver was impaired by alcohol or Prozac:  the results are the same. Frank

Response:

phoenix: Aren’t the newspapers FULL of Prozakians running around on rampages, abusing/killing kids?

annon Prozakian: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – No, they aren’t.  If they were, you’d have no trouble providing several recent examples.

Response:

Need Info and Advice

Question:

Tom Thumb wrote: > Hi: > I have recently started suspecting that I suffer from > sleep apnea.  I need to go and get it checkd.  Does > anyone have any suggestion as to how to find a > good doc or a clinic in Central Texas.

Try: http://www.asda.org/sleep_study.htm this lists accredited clinic. A clinic does not have to be accredited to be a good clinic, but it will assure you that it meets minimum standards. the page with Texas clinics is at: http://www.asda.org/states/texas.htm For Doctors in Texas check out the following: <http://www.absm.org/Diplomates%20by%20state/state%20T’s.htm> These are doctors who are associated with the American Board of Sleep Medicine. > I have a decent PPO and propose calling them tomorrow > to find out coverage.

Always a good idea. > Any suggestions here ?  Viz, is it better to go to a clinic directly, > or go to a GP first, or a ENT specialist ?

Suggest going to your GP first if possible unless you have approached him about the problem in the past and he has tried to downplay it as a problem. Find a doctor who is a Board Certified Sleep Specialist, this means they have to have learned specific information concerning sleep disorders and should be more knowledgeable about them than the regular specialist. I also suggest that instead of an ENT, you should try to find one that is a pulmonologist or Neurologist, the reason being, *in my personal opinion based on the articles posted in this newsgroup,* ENT is more likely to recommend surgery (uvulopalatialpharangeal procedure or UPPP), which has a low success rate, success measured as being completely cured of apnea, and an equal chance of being partially successful /not successful, and can also have a chance of disastrous results about a quarter of the time. A Pulmonologist or a Neurologist will be more likely to look for non-surgical means to treat and save surgery for the last resort. > Any suggestions on dentists offering this service ?

The ones I have heard about having the best information were dental specialist (dental surgeons? I think). Mainly they were for fitting any jaw advancement items, but I also think they tried to work with the other Doctors in order to give the patient the best of both worlds. — Magesteff – "The important thing is not to stop questioning. Curiosity has its own reason for existing."-Albert Einstein ——————————————————– Pursuant to US Code, Title 47, Chapter 5, Subchapter II,

Freaking out the cats

Question:

– Let’s have a toast….with electricity

: That’s what I was thinking.  The batteries are making a strange noise. : : Don’t fret, Mark.  You can always "forget" to put them in or turn them on. : : Hazel Az :

: it may have been your batteries making that high pitched squeal..  too : high : for you to hear, but not the cats. : : Yes, I totally agree….working in a medical setting where many patients have hearing appliances in place, I hear those things’ high-pitched squealing all the time: the patient does *not* seem to hear *that*……but if I was a real cat, I think it would really get their attention. One of our beloved cats now at RB used to *hate* the sound of those little toy pianos and the holiday battery-run electronic music things; it was so cute the way he would come up, put his paw up near the offending item and bat at it, looking up at us…..if ignored, he would then bite the item, or our fingers, gently! After that, we made sure he was not around when playing them. : :

Response:

I’ve seen people in the hospital where I work sleeping with a CPap or a BiPap on and I think it looks like a strapped-on pig snout. Then again, with the hose maybe it’s an elephant snout?  Whatever you call it a decent nights sleep sounds lovely but my appointment to sleep at the sleep disorders clinic isn’t until January.  :(   Can you believe I found a sleep clinic that actually has a few appointments for sleeping during the day for night workers like me?!?

Response:

Hope the hearing aids are the blessing to you that mine are to me.  I still find plenty of excuses for ignoring people (g).  The most fun with mine when they were new was the squeal they would give out.  Our poodles of course had to check them out.  Only every time one of them would stick their nose too close the feedback it caused would  scare the dog half to death.  Didn’t help that I thought it was so funny I’d put my hand over the aid to make it squeak just to watch the dogs jump. —       (        /)       (  _  / )       (  ( )/   )      Jo Firey       (  /<    )     I just love deadlines.       ( / /   )     Especially the whooshing sound       /                  as they go flying by.

Well, I went and got fitted with my first bionic implants today (a pair of hearing aids) – one for each nostril – big grin. The world is NOISY; I’m not entirely sure I like it (grin). So I get home, and all evening, the cats are giving me "The look" as if they are going to bolt each time I speak to them. Seems I now speak more softly, since I hear myself better, and it is freaking them out. Little Feet even went so far as to sniff at my ear, and tried to paw at a hearing aid until I discouraged it. The only problem I see with having them (outside of the expense!), is now I’ll have to fins new excuses for ignoring people (grin). Mark Edwards Most SF writers are small blokes; they spent a lot of time grubbing around on the floor for old SF mags, not stretching up to the top shelf for pornography …As an aside, Douglas Adams is quite tall…  - Terry Pratchett

Response:

Speaking of noises freaking out cats, this morning Roxy scared herself with a behavior that I am always trying to get her to stop doing anyway. I have one of those ubiquitous GE clock radios that have the control buttons on top. If you press one button, it sets the clock. Another button sets the time for the alarm to go off. There’s also a switch between on/off/radio/alarm. Anyway, both of my cats are forever sitting on top of that clock and resetting the time. I’ll be getting ready to get into bed at night, only to find that it is 6:47 AM. Most of the time I don’t need to use the alarm; otherwise I’d be oversleeping a lot more often! (I remember that story by Pam Shirk about the cat resetting the alarm clock and Rob getting in trouble at the base. Luckily I don’t work for the military, but nonetheless there are times when oversleeping can be embarrassing.) This morning, Roxy jumped up on the night table and made herself very comfortable on top of the clock. I was about to shoo her off when suddenly the radio switched on. The volume was turned all the way up so it would be certain to wake me. She streaked away from the radio and sat on the opposite side of the room with her pupils dilated and her ears pulled way back. She gave me dirty looks for about 15 minutes even though I tried to tell her it wasn’t my fault. But I had to hide my snickering. Do you think she’s learned anything from this experience? I seriously doubt it. I have come home on several occasions to find my clock radio blaring (for who knows how long) and both cats looking rather unnerved. I can only wonder how my neighbors must feel about all that noise! Joyce

Response:

  Well, I went and got fitted with my first bionic implants today (a   pair of hearing aids) Congrats! Hope you enjoy the new world of sound!   So I get home, and all evening, the cats are giving me "The look"…   Little Feet even went so far as to sniff at my ear, and tried to paw   at a hearing aid until I discouraged it. I was diagnosed with sleep apnea a couple of years ago – this is a sleep problem where your throat closes up and you stop breathing in your sleep several times a night (sometimes hundreds of times). It disturbs your sleep so that you don’t get adequate rest. The main treatment is something called a CPAP – a sort of "reverse vacuum cleaner" that forces air into your nostrils. You wear a mask on your face, which connects via a hose to the machine that blows the air. This keeps the throat open so you can breathe properly and get a full night’s sleep. The CPAP is pretty weird-looking – some folks have described it as looking like Darth Vader, or maybe the guy who had the alien thing on his face in "Alien." All I can say is I’ll never forget the look on Roxy’s face the first night I had it at home. She stayed on the opposite side of the room, sitting straight up with her head drawn back and her eyes wide open in shock, staring at me. I swear, she was thinking, "What is she doing with a vacuum cleaner on her face?" Now both cats sleep happily curled up on my bed while the CPAP softly hums its white noise into the air. Cats are very suspicious of the unknown, but they seem to be able to get used to just about anything eventually. Joyce

Response:

it may have been your batteries making that high pitched squeal..  too high for you to hear, but not the cats.

Response:

That’s what I was thinking.  The batteries are making a strange noise. Don’t fret, Mark.  You can always "forget" to put them in or turn them on. Hazel Az

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it may have been your batteries making that high pitched squeal..  too high for you to hear, but not the cats.

Response:

I don’t know if your cat learned anything by scaring herself half to heck but the kittens here never did. I had a VCR with teeny little numbers for the clock display so I had a small alarm/radio in the livingroom, on the floor under a chair, as my clock. The kittens were always sitting on it – hey, it’s warm!!  I turned the volume down but they’d bump it back up. Finally I duct taped over the volume control. Now I have a VCR with a bigger display and threw out the clock with all the dirty paw prints.

Response:

Well, I went and got fitted with my first bionic implants today (a pair of hearing aids) – one for each nostril – big grin. The world is NOISY; I’m not entirely sure I like it (grin). So I get home, and all evening, the cats are giving me "The look" as if they are going to bolt each time I speak to them. Seems I now speak more softly, since I hear myself better, and it is freaking them out. Little Feet even went so far as to sniff at my ear, and tried to paw at a hearing aid until I discouraged it. The only problem I see with having them (outside of the expense!), is now I’ll have to fins new excuses for ignoring people (grin).

My dad turns his off when people come over.

Response:

I had to share this one with my DH.  He did the usual fix all the clocks in the house when daylight saving time ended Sunday.  (He still doesn’t understand the ones with microchips that reset themselves).  Except for his watch that I always have to do and his GE alarm clock.  I finally found out why he always thinks its broken or doesn’t like him or something.  Ours has the usual top buttons and dual alarms etc.  As well as a "lock" button on the side that he didn’t know about or had forgotten about.  I explained that it was so he wouldn’t accidentally reset everything trying to turn it off in the morning.  Our cat likes walking across the top of it too.  If he turned it on at night I’d never know it.  Can’t hear a $#)%% thing anymore once the hearing aids are out.  Still think God took my hearing so the grandkids wouldn’t drive me nuts.  I mean how else do you drive a vanload of teenage boys to and from an amusement park with haunted houses the day before Halloween? —       (        /)       (  _  / )       (  ( )/   )      Jo Firey       (  /<    )     I just love deadlines.       ( / /   )     Especially the whooshing sound       /                  as they go flying by.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Speaking of noises freaking out cats, this morning Roxy scared herself with a behavior that I am always trying to get her to stop doing anyway. I have one of those ubiquitous GE clock radios that have the control buttons on top. If you press one button, it sets the clock. Another button sets the time for the alarm to go off. There’s also a switch between on/off/radio/alarm. Anyway, both of my cats are forever sitting on top of that clock and resetting the time. I’ll be getting ready to get into bed at night, only to find that it is 6:47 AM. Most of the time I don’t need to use the alarm; otherwise I’d be oversleeping a lot more often! (I remember that story by Pam Shirk about the cat resetting the alarm clock and Rob getting in trouble at the base. Luckily I don’t work for the military, but nonetheless there are times when oversleeping can be embarrassing.) This morning, Roxy jumped up on the night table and made herself very comfortable on top of the clock. I was about to shoo her off when suddenly the radio switched on. The volume was turned all the way up so it would be certain to wake me. She streaked away from the radio and sat on the opposite side of the room with her pupils dilated and her ears pulled way back. She gave me dirty looks for about 15 minutes even though I tried to tell her it wasn’t my fault. But I had to hide my snickering. Do you think she’s learned anything from this experience? I seriously doubt it. I have come home on several occasions to find my clock radio blaring (for who knows how long) and both cats looking rather unnerved. I can only wonder how my neighbors must feel about all that noise! Joyce

Response:

Well, I went and got fitted with my first bionic implants today (a pair of hearing aids) – one for each nostril – big grin. The world is NOISY; I’m not entirely sure I like it (grin). So I get home, and all evening, the cats are giving me "The look" as if they are going to bolt each time I speak to them. Seems I now speak more softly, since I hear myself better, and it is freaking them out. Little Feet even went so far as to sniff at my ear, and tried to paw at a hearing aid until I discouraged it. The only problem I see with having them (outside of the expense!), is now I’ll have to fins new excuses for ignoring people (grin). Dead battery?  <G Joy

Response:

*grin* My father aquired his very first pair about two months ago. It was almost a feeling of a miracle had been performed as we watched his eyes light up, and whisper.. I heard that! And the very next moment, we were rolling in the aisles as he blinked with confusion and asked, what was that he heard. When it was only a strange bird call. He had to relearn some sounds that had been denied him for a long time. *smiles softly* It is most certainly, a joy you can share with loved ones *grin* Most especially cats!! Grace

Well, I went and got fitted with my first bionic implants today (a pair of hearing aids) – one for each nostril – big grin. The world is NOISY; I’m not entirely sure I like it (grin). So I get home, and all evening, the cats are giving me "The look" as if they are going to bolt each time I speak to them. Seems I now speak more softly, since I hear myself better, and it is freaking them out. Little Feet even went so far as to sniff at my ear, and tried to paw at a hearing aid until I discouraged it. The only problem I see with having them (outside of the expense!), is now I’ll have to fins new excuses for ignoring people (grin). Mark Edwards Most SF writers are small blokes; they spent a lot of time grubbing around on the floor for old SF mags, not stretching up to the top shelf for pornography …As an aside, Douglas Adams is quite tall…  - Terry Pratchett

Response:

Jaw Alignment, possible treatment plan, report for Now

Question:

Abstract of article Kind regards John Eur J Orthod 1998 Apr;20(2):121-32 The role of lateral cephalometric radiography and fluoroscopy in assessing mandibular advancement in sleep-related disorders. Battagel JM, L’Estrange PR, Nolan P, Harkness B Department of Orthodontics, London Hospital Medical College Dental School, UK. Mandibular advancement splints are successful in managing obstructive sleep apnoea (OSA) in selected subjects. For these to be effective, some improvement in the dimensions of the oropharyngeal airway must occur. Twenty subjects with proven obstructive sleep apnoea were examined using lateral cephalometric radiography and a fluoroscopic technique. Cephalograms were analysed, and assessed for both skeletal and soft tissue abnormalities known to be present in OSA subjects. On the basis of these, a prediction was made as to whether the subject’s oropharyngeal airway would increase during mandibular protrusion. From the fluoroscopic sequences, the narrowest antero-posterior dimensions of the post-palatal and post-lingual airways were recorded as the mandible moved from the intercuspal position into maximal protrusion. The changes in airway size were noted and these were compared with the predictions made from the static films. In nine subjects, fluoroscopy indicated that the airway opened well during mandibular protrusion, seven did not improve and in four the changes were minimal. Post-palatally the mean airway increase was 2.6 mm, whilst behind the tongue a mean improvement of 3.1 mm was seen. In all but two instances, the cephalometric prediction agreed exactly with the outcome demonstrated by fluoroscopy. All subjects whose airways clearly increased were correctly identified by the cephalogram alone. Cephalometric features associated with a good airway response to protrusion were a reduced lower facial height, low maxillomandibular planes angle and a high hyoid position, accompanied by a normal anteroposterior relationship of the jaws, relatively normal mandibular body length and soft palate area. The more abnormal the skeletal and soft tissue dimensions, the poorer the prognosis. Thus, whilst a single radiograph could indicate whether a positive mandibular response to protrusion could be expected, where doubt existed, a fluoroscopic analysis could provide a useful adjunct to diagnosis. PMID: 9633166, UI: 98296822 "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message

news:B7RZ4.128$e5.5647@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi John, > I would love to see the article.  My jaw is just going to be aligned, and I > did ask the Doctor about breaking the jaw and bringing it forward and he > said he saw no sense in doing that with the way my jaw is now, but if pays > to have info on anything that might be suggested down the road. > John Burnell <burn…@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message > news:KfJZ4.6572$N4.250740@ozemail.com.au… > > There is a very good article written about using a simple cephalometric > > x-ray to predict success of mandibular advancement. > > It is titled "The Role of Lateral Cephalometric Radiography and > Fluoroscopy > > in Assessing Mandibular Advancement in Sleep Disorders" > > I got the full article to-day and it is excellent and I know several of > the > > authors and they are very good and have spent several years in this type > of > > research. > > John > > "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message > > news:TSDZ4.76526$k5.2006046@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com… > > > I saw the doctor for the xraying of my jaw and aligning which took about > 3 > > > hours. > > > One thing that was done was two pads were placed on both sides of my > face > > > and what felt like electrical shock was done for about half a hour. The > > > purpose I thing was to tired out my face muscles so that they would be > > > relaxed but did not work on me, my muscles increased after the > treatment. > > > Anyway to make a short story long, an impression was made of my jaw and > a > > > device will be made which will keep my jaw in the proper place when I > > sleep > > > (expensive at around $1,800) and a second might be made for the daytime > > > which I will be unable to talk while I wear it (one way to shut me up) > and > > > it would cost at $800.  The xraying today cost me $885 and this is not > > > covered under my medical coverage but I am having it submitted as out of > > > plan to see if I can get some covered. > > > Dr. Chase had talked to Dr. Black (Director of Stanford Sleep Clinic) > and > > > said that Dr. Black had reviewed my raw sleep data from my first sleep > > study > > > and was perplexed by it.  It is possible that my disturbances might be > > > causing my apnea and not the other way around.  There is a possibility > > that > > > this might be my sleep problem, but in any case, between 5 and 8 weeks I > > > should feel an improvement.  Dr. Chase had mentioned about trying the > opap > > > down the road, and I will ask about this when I got back in about two > > weeks > > > for the device that I will wear. > > > I had received comments from an individual who got very upset with me > and > > > stated that I was being foolish listening to my doctors. Unfortunately > we > > > are at the mercy of our doctors that we have available to us and have to > > > make decisions based on what is presented to us.  The person that > emailed > > me > > > stated that my mouth could not be the problem with using a dental device > > and > > > they may be right, but Dr. Chase has used dental appliances for sleep > > apnea > > > for some time and he is an associate professor at the School of > Dentistry > > in > > > San Francisco, CA and is very familiar with how the jaw works. > > > What the doctor does to align my jaw will not involve any surgery. > > > Tomorrow I will be out of town for 10 days and wanted to post this. > > > Hopefully this will be allow me some relief and provide other routes of > > > treatment that might be missed by doctors, if in fact, my condition is > > true. > > > I hope that I made some sense.

Response:

I saw the doctor for the xraying of my jaw and aligning which took about 3 hours. One thing that was done was two pads were placed on both sides of my face and what felt like electrical shock was done for about half a hour.  The purpose I thing was to tired out my face muscles so that they would be relaxed but did not work on me, my muscles increased after the treatment. Anyway to make a short story long, an impression was made of my jaw and a device will be made which will keep my jaw in the proper place when I sleep (expensive at around $1,800) and a second might be made for the daytime which I will be unable to talk while I wear it (one way to shut me up) and it would cost at $800.  The xraying today cost me $885 and this is not covered under my medical coverage but I am having it submitted as out of plan to see if I can get some covered. Dr. Chase had talked to Dr. Black (Director of Stanford Sleep Clinic) and said that Dr. Black had reviewed my raw sleep data from my first sleep study and was perplexed by it.  It is possible that my disturbances might be causing my apnea and not the other way around.  There is a possibility that this might be my sleep problem, but in any case, between 5 and 8 weeks I should feel an improvement.  Dr. Chase had mentioned about trying the opap down the road, and I will ask about this when I got back in about two weeks for the device that I will wear. I had received comments from an individual who got very upset with me and stated that I was being foolish listening to my doctors.  Unfortunately we are at the mercy of our doctors that we have available to us and have to make decisions based on what is presented to us.  The person that emailed me stated that my mouth could not be the problem with using a dental device and they may be right, but Dr. Chase has used dental appliances for sleep apnea for some time and he is an associate professor at the School of Dentistry in San Francisco, CA and is very familiar with how the jaw works. What the doctor does to align my jaw will not involve any surgery. Tomorrow I will be out of town for 10 days and wanted to post this. Hopefully this will be allow me some relief and provide other routes of treatment that might be missed by doctors, if in fact, my condition is true. I hope that I made some sense.

Response:

Hi John, I would love to see the article.  My jaw is just going to be aligned, and I did ask the Doctor about breaking the jaw and bringing it forward and he said he saw no sense in doing that with the way my jaw is now, but if pays to have info on anything that might be suggested down the road. John Burnell <burn…@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message

news:KfJZ4.6572$N4.250740@ozemail.com.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There is a very good article written about using a simple cephalometric > x-ray to predict success of mandibular advancement. > It is titled "The Role of Lateral Cephalometric Radiography and Fluoroscopy > in Assessing Mandibular Advancement in Sleep Disorders" > I got the full article to-day and it is excellent and I know several of the > authors and they are very good and have spent several years in this type of > research. > John > "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message > news:TSDZ4.76526$k5.2006046@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com… > > I saw the doctor for the xraying of my jaw and aligning which took about 3 > > hours. > > One thing that was done was two pads were placed on both sides of my face > > and what felt like electrical shock was done for about half a hour.  The > > purpose I thing was to tired out my face muscles so that they would be > > relaxed but did not work on me, my muscles increased after the treatment. > > Anyway to make a short story long, an impression was made of my jaw and a > > device will be made which will keep my jaw in the proper place when I > sleep > > (expensive at around $1,800) and a second might be made for the daytime > > which I will be unable to talk while I wear it (one way to shut me up) and > > it would cost at $800.  The xraying today cost me $885 and this is not > > covered under my medical coverage but I am having it submitted as out of > > plan to see if I can get some covered. > > Dr. Chase had talked to Dr. Black (Director of Stanford Sleep Clinic) and > > said that Dr. Black had reviewed my raw sleep data from my first sleep > study > > and was perplexed by it.  It is possible that my disturbances might be > > causing my apnea and not the other way around.  There is a possibility > that > > this might be my sleep problem, but in any case, between 5 and 8 weeks I > > should feel an improvement.  Dr. Chase had mentioned about trying the opap > > down the road, and I will ask about this when I got back in about two > weeks > > for the device that I will wear. > > I had received comments from an individual who got very upset with me and > > stated that I was being foolish listening to my doctors.  Unfortunately we > > are at the mercy of our doctors that we have available to us and have to > > make decisions based on what is presented to us.  The person that emailed > me > > stated that my mouth could not be the problem with using a dental device > and > > they may be right, but Dr. Chase has used dental appliances for sleep > apnea > > for some time and he is an associate professor at the School of Dentistry > in > > San Francisco, CA and is very familiar with how the jaw works. > > What the doctor does to align my jaw will not involve any surgery. > > Tomorrow I will be out of town for 10 days and wanted to post this. > > Hopefully this will be allow me some relief and provide other routes of > > treatment that might be missed by doctors, if in fact, my condition is > true. > > I hope that I made some sense.

Response:

There is a very good article written about using a simple cephalometric x-ray to predict success of mandibular advancement. It is titled "The Role of Lateral Cephalometric Radiography and Fluoroscopy in Assessing Mandibular Advancement in Sleep Disorders" I got the full article to-day and it is excellent and I know several of the authors and they are very good and have spent several years in this type of research. John "Patrick Richards" <patrickricha…@home.com> wrote in message

news:TSDZ4.76526$k5.2006046@news1.frmt1.sfba.home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I saw the doctor for the xraying of my jaw and aligning which took about 3 > hours. > One thing that was done was two pads were placed on both sides of my face > and what felt like electrical shock was done for about half a hour.  The > purpose I thing was to tired out my face muscles so that they would be > relaxed but did not work on me, my muscles increased after the treatment. > Anyway to make a short story long, an impression was made of my jaw and a > device will be made which will keep my jaw in the proper place when I sleep > (expensive at around $1,800) and a second might be made for the daytime > which I will be unable to talk while I wear it (one way to shut me up) and > it would cost at $800.  The xraying today cost me $885 and this is not > covered under my medical coverage but I am having it submitted as out of > plan to see if I can get some covered. > Dr. Chase had talked to Dr. Black (Director of Stanford Sleep Clinic) and > said that Dr. Black had reviewed my raw sleep data from my first sleep study > and was perplexed by it.  It is possible that my disturbances might be > causing my apnea and not the other way around.  There is a possibility that > this might be my sleep problem, but in any case, between 5 and 8 weeks I > should feel an improvement.  Dr. Chase had mentioned about trying the opap > down the road, and I will ask about this when I got back in about two weeks > for the device that I will wear. > I had received comments from an individual who got very upset with me and > stated that I was being foolish listening to my doctors.  Unfortunately we > are at the mercy of our doctors that we have available to us and have to > make decisions based on what is presented to us.  The person that emailed me > stated that my mouth could not be the problem with using a dental device and > they may be right, but Dr. Chase has used dental appliances for sleep apnea > for some time and he is an associate professor at the School of Dentistry in > San Francisco, CA and is very familiar with how the jaw works. > What the doctor does to align my jaw will not involve any surgery. > Tomorrow I will be out of town for 10 days and wanted to post this. > Hopefully this will be allow me some relief and provide other routes of > treatment that might be missed by doctors, if in fact, my condition is true. > I hope that I made some sense.

Response:

MENAPUUSAL INSOMNIA

Question:

In article <20000410025658.13969.00000…@ng-cp1.aol.com>, Stromer2 <strom…@aol.com> wrote: >My wife has menapausal insomnia caused by her body not being able to get a good >estrogen balance. We think this is the cause of her insomnia but there may be >another reason we don’t know about.   The reason for this imbalance is unknown >- her OBGYN says just live with the insomnia.  With a improper estrogen balance >from HRT she has this insomnia.  Occasionally she can sleep fair when she is >lucky and her estrogen balance is good.  This only happens right after a shot.

Insomnia is a common and, yes, annoying sign of perimenopause, whether one is receiving supplemental estrogen or not. Many of us have gone through that stage (and some of us are still in it). >She has tried almost everything – read books and is not depressed. >  Natural – melatonin, does not spend time in bed except for sleeping, valarian >  root, exercise, etc. >  Sleep Medication – xanax, ambiam, paxil. >Has not tried hypnosis, acupuncture yet.  

It sounds as if she’s on the right track, but some people have found that nothing "cures" this problem but time. In the meantime, it can be very draining. Besides the common-sense strategies you describe above, some of us have found that trying to stay as relaxed and quiet while we’re awake at night at least permits us to rest, if not to sleep; grabbing a nap during the day, if possible, helps as well. I’m sorry that I can’t offer you suyggestions for an easy fix; perhaps others here can. In my own case, the insomnia resolved on its own after several months, and I now sleep as well as I ever did. Like many of the signs and signals women go through during this stage of their life, insomnia does seem to be temporary. Regards, –Pat Kight kig…@peak.org

Response:

I can’t answer your questions such as you asked them, since I haven’t been to a sleep clinic, and I am not on HRT, but… I’ve had menopausal insomnia for 3 years now, I’ve tried the things you’ve mentioned  - and nothing has really worked for me, either.  Cathy Stromer2 <strom…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20000410025658.13969.00000909@ng-cp1.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife has menapausal insomnia caused by her body not being able to get a good > estrogen balance. We think this is the cause of her insomnia but there may be > another reason we don’t know about.   The reason for this imbalance is unknown > – her OBGYN says just live with the insomnia.  With a improper estrogen balance > from HRT she has this insomnia.  Occasionally she can sleep fair when she is > lucky and her estrogen balance is good.  This only happens right after a shot. > She has tried almost everything – read books and is not depressed. >   Natural – melatonin, does not spend time in bed except for sleeping, valarian >   root, exercise, etc. >   Sleep Medication – xanax, ambiam, paxil. > Has not tried hypnosis, acupuncture yet. > Is going to the UCLA  sleep disorders center to see a neurologist soon. They > will do an interview and some blood work and will hopefully come up with a > solution.  I do not think they will have a sleep study done because I do not > think she has sleep apnea or restless leg syndrome or any other disorder like > this. > QUESTION 1 – Has anyone been to the UCLA sleep disorders clinic and had their > insomnia cured? > QUESTION 2 – Has anyone found a underlying physical problem that was found > through extensive tests that, when solved, cured insomnia? > QUESTION 3 – Has anyone tried acupuncture or hypnosis for insomnia? > Thank you for any advice on the above, Rick

Response:

My wife has menapausal insomnia caused by her body not being able to get a good estrogen balance. We think this is the cause of her insomnia but there may be another reason we don’t know about.   The reason for this imbalance is unknown – her OBGYN says just live with the insomnia.  With a improper estrogen balance from HRT she has this insomnia.  Occasionally she can sleep fair when she is lucky and her estrogen balance is good.  This only happens right after a shot. She has tried almost everything – read books and is not depressed.   Natural – melatonin, does not spend time in bed except for sleeping, valarian   root, exercise, etc.   Sleep Medication – xanax, ambiam, paxil. Has not tried hypnosis, acupuncture yet.   Is going to the UCLA  sleep disorders center to see a neurologist soon. They will do an interview and some blood work and will hopefully come up with a solution.  I do not think they will have a sleep study done because I do not think she has sleep apnea or restless leg syndrome or any other disorder like this. QUESTION 1 – Has anyone been to the UCLA sleep disorders clinic and had their insomnia cured? QUESTION 2 – Has anyone found a underlying physical problem that was found through extensive tests that, when solved, cured insomnia? QUESTION 3 – Has anyone tried acupuncture or hypnosis for insomnia? Thank you for any advice on the above, Rick

Response:

On 10 Apr 2000 06:56:58 GMT, strom…@aol.com (Stromer2) wrote: >My wife has menapausal insomnia caused by her body not being able to get a good >estrogen balance. We think this is the cause of her insomnia but there may be >another reason we don’t know about.  

Hi Rick, according to your earlier posts to asm your wife has had a surgical menopause ( her ovaries were removed ) so yes in her case she may be struggling to find a proper hormone adjustment with ERT, I mention this because just the words *hormone imbalance* are a hot button when talking about a normal transistion through menopause. Has your wife considered talking to an endocrinologist about her problems with insomnia and estrogen replacement if she feels this a connection? Has she been able to look at Kalli’s website on surgical menopause? There is also a mailing list connected to the website. http://members.tripod.com/%7Efiona_51/index.html – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> The reason for this imbalance is unknown >- her OBGYN says just live with the insomnia.  With a improper estrogen balance >from HRT she has this insomnia.  Occasionally she can sleep fair when she is >lucky and her estrogen balance is good.  This only happens right after a shot. >She has tried almost everything – read books and is not depressed. >  Natural – melatonin, does not spend time in bed except for sleeping, valarian >  root, exercise, etc. >  Sleep Medication – xanax, ambiam, paxil. >Has not tried hypnosis, acupuncture yet.   >Is going to the UCLA  sleep disorders center to see a neurologist soon. They >will do an interview and some blood work and will hopefully come up with a >solution.  I do not think they will have a sleep study done because I do not >think she has sleep apnea or restless leg syndrome or any other disorder like >this. >QUESTION 1 – Has anyone been to the UCLA sleep disorders clinic and had their >insomnia cured? >QUESTION 2 – Has anyone found a underlying physical problem that was found >through extensive tests that, when solved, cured insomnia?

I found just waiting it out worked, but I  had a natural menopause ans was able to let my body sort out the changes happening with me. I am not taking HRT.  Most menopausal insomnia is temporary. >QUESTION 3 – Has anyone tried acupuncture or hypnosis for insomnia? >Thank you for any advice on the above, Rick

Kathryn

Response:

support needed for Ativan withdrawal

Question:

I am very surprised at the lack of replys, accept of course for yours, Rand’s and one time, Philip’s. I never saw your original post (still haven’t). This is one of the problems when people do not quote what they are responding to. Chip

Response:

Dear Trish. I am sorry that you have hard such a hard time on Ativan. If you are under your doctor’s care, what dose are you taking now? 5 is a mild dose. As for your anxieties over taking the meds at least you know that where your anxiety is coming from. The fear of taking the medication. When you are in therapy for several months you will be able to slowly handle the anxiety on your own, thus your need for the Ativan will be decreased. The best thing for you to do is stay with your doctor and pyschiatrist on this as they are your best source of information. Also, if they feel you do need a detox program, there are several sites on the net to look up information. Narcotics anonymous and Betty Ford Clinic are 2 great places to start. But it sure sounds as if you are handling the withdrawal just fine. Just take each day slowly. Let us know how you are doing in the weeks ahead. You have to remain positive and focused. And do take Rand’s response lightly. He sounds very angry as he may have personal issues to deal with. We all have anxieties that effect our lives and sometimes we can be hostile to others without meaning to. all my best,julie * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

You will thank me for being brave enough to come over to this hostile benzo loving forum to give you this advice. Best of luck Rand It takes very little bravery to harass a NG. Chip

Response:

Julie: I sometimes get angry when folks like you make judgemental comments as you just did.  You are dang right I’m angry  , well sort of. When you go through withdrawal as badly as hundreds of thousands of people have, you will be angry at people who say things like this : "The best thing for you to do is stay with your doctor and pyschiatrist on this as they are your best source of information." Oh, was that you that said that ? Just let me ask you a simple question,   are you a doctor or just plain stupid ? The worst thing you can do is stay with your doctor, especially if his way of dealing with anxiety or sleep disorders is to push harful drugs like benzos on an unsuspecting public. There are people here who are being damaged by your spurious information. I just posted an interesting article about Stevie Nicks and her comments about Clonazepam that she got addicted to.  Betty Ford, what a joke. The N American protocols of a 6 week phenobarbital substitution method are quite dangerous and the relapse rate is high. Britain and Australia seem to be miles ahead of the Canadians and Americans when it comes to knowing how to deal with difficult withdrawals from benzos. I even went to a new doctor today who thought that Rivotril ( Clonazepam ) was banned in Australia.  I think he is incorrect but it goes to show that many doctors know benzos are very harmful and most doctors don’t know anything at all except what the drug companies brochures tell them. Now, why would I be angry ? I am not feeling particularly angry right now but just remember, you will be responsible for a persons continuing addiction and potential horrible withdrawals should these people stay on them for more than a few months maximum. If anyone wishes to get off benzos then you should encourage them to do so. Here again is a new manual by a doctor in England who ran a benzo detox clinic for 12 years with over 90% success rate.  If benzos were not highly addicting then why would there even be a need for a benzo detox clinic anywhere. ? http://members.dencity.com/ashtonpapers/index.html Rand

Response:

Dear Trish. I sincerely hope that you are under a doctor’s supervision to wean off the Ativan.

Hi Julie; Yes, I am under a Dr.’s care and being very careful about how slowly I taper. However, last Fall, my previous primary care told me to just cut my dose of Ativan in half, I  trusted in her ability and paid dearly for it with extreme withdrawal symptoms. She is no longer my primary care.  Now I have a new primary care who seems to be more up to speed with benzo’s and also am being monitored by a psychiatrist. If you are in cbt, then you will learn many coping skills and techniques to deal with the anxiety that you may experience.

That sounds reasonable, however sometimes I think taking the med. causes me more anxiety as I worry about side effects and withdrawal symptoms both. I have been taking Ativan as needed since December of 98. If I do need it , I cut the .5 in half with a  pill cutter.

I used to take it that way too for occasional anxiety with no side effects. Then last summer I experienced severe jaw clenching problems due to stress from the loss of a loved one. My pcp told me to increase the dosage of Ativan because of its muscle relaxing properties ( and anxiety reducing).  When I expressed concerns about becoming physically dependent on it, she told me, " no problem", that she could wean me off it easily."  Well that turned out not to be the case. Thank you for your best wishes. I appreciate it.   ~Trish

Response:

AAAAAAAAA(hands on my face) Have I joined a "HOSTILE BENZO LOVING FORUM" ? Just kidding guy’s I don’t know who you are (Rand) as I am new here, but seriously…GET A LIFE!!

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – If you are under your doctor’s care, what dose are you taking now? Hi again Julie: Right now I am taking 1/4 of a mg of At ivan  3X a day ( every 8 hours).  I started tapering down from 1mg 3X a day in Nov.99. I am feeling very encouraged by my psychologist who is working with me in the CBT.  She has started teaching me coping skills in how to deal with the anxiety that I might feel when eliminating one of my doses.  My psychiatrist’s advice,however, has been to switch over to Klonopin and then taper off of that after a few months of CBT.  I don’t understand the benefit of doing that.  I see that as just prolonging the withdrawal process.  Knowing that psychiatrists (in general) have a tendency to want to prescribe meds, and also that could be because most patients want a quick "cure", I tend to want to go the CBT route, decreasing (slowly) the Ativan and prepare myself physically and emotionally in the best way I know how and just be done with this mess.  This, I think, is what will be best for me, IMO.  But, what do I know?  That’s why I posted; looking for support from others who may have gone through this.  I am very surprised at the lack of replys, accept of course for yours, Rand’s and one time, Philip’s. I will try to keep you posted of my progress, and appreciate all help ( but honestly can do without the bickering stuff). I have enough turmoil in my life as it is. ( don’t we all) ~Trish

I think there is no sense in first switching to Klonopin because Klonopin is associated with a withdrawal problem as much as Ativan. Moreover it seems that you have been able to diminish the dose a lot already. Maybe you shoulkd try to take two doses of 1/4 mg one day and then three again the next and get to the lower level while alternating ever slower (two days of two doses vs one day of three doses, a week later maybe three days of two doses etc.etc.). I am sorry that you feel you haven’t gotten enough attention with your question. Most questions get answered but I for one try to keep my mouth shut when I don’t have anything to say. My problem is that I never know when I have nothing to say so I’m cackling all the time ))) Philip

Response:

If you are under your doctor’s care, what dose are you taking now?

Hi again Julie: Right now I am taking 1/4 of a mg of At ivan  3X a day ( every 8 hours).  I started tapering down from 1mg 3X a day in Nov.99. I am feeling very encouraged by my psychologist who is working with me in the CBT.  She has started teaching me coping skills in how to deal with the anxiety that I might feel when eliminating one of my doses.  My psychiatrist’s advice,however, has been to switch over to Klonopin and then taper off of that after a few months of CBT.  I don’t understand the benefit of doing that.  I see that as just prolonging the withdrawal process.  Knowing that psychiatrists (in general) have a tendency to want to prescribe meds, and also that could be because most patients want a quick "cure", I tend to want to go the CBT route, decreasing (slowly) the Ativan and prepare myself physically and emotionally in the best way I know how and just be done with this mess.  This, I think, is what will be best for me, IMO.  But, what do I know?  That’s why I posted; looking for support from others who may have gone through this.  I am very surprised at the lack of replys, accept of course for yours, Rand’s and one time, Philip’s. I will try to keep you posted of my progress, and appreciate all help ( but honestly can do without the bickering stuff). I have enough turmoil in my life as it is. ( don’t we all) ~Trish

Response:

Get this manual. http://members.dencity.com/ashtonpapers/index.html It just came out 2 months ago. It is the best info you can get for assisting benzo withdrawal

Hi Rand Thanks for your input.  I will check out the Heather Ashton site. ~Trish

Response:

Get this manual. http://members.dencity.com/ashtonpapers/index.html It just came out 2 months ago. It is the best info you can get for assisting benzo withdrawal Heather Ashton ran a benxo setox clinic in London for 12 years and claims 90% success. Incidently very few people are able to withdraw from Ativan. Its half life is VERY short. heather recommends a gradual switch to valium which has a half life of over 30 hours.  The manual shows you how to do this properly. Asking Philip, who knows almost nothing about benzos is like asking a police car if it is a taxi cab. Take it or leave it but in the end you will see that this is the correct way and that it is a wise thing not to stay on benzos too long as they are highly habit forming and the withdrawals if done improperly can cause you very much discomfort and possibly lead to relapse. Tapering must be done very slowly. 05 mgs of Ativan is equal to 10 mgs valium and heather suggests taking about 2 weeks or more for a 1 mg cut and even that may be too fast. Before you listen to these amateur doctors, get this manual. You will thank me for being brave enough to come over to this hostile benzo loving forum to give you this advice. Best of luck Rand

Response:

Dear Trish. I sincerely hope that you are under a doctor’s supervision to wean off the Ativan. You need to do it slowly and carefully. If you are in cbt, then you will learn many coping skills and techniques to deal with the anxiety that you may experience. I have been taking Ativan as needed since December of 98. If I do need it , I cut the .5 in half with a  pill cutter. I have been off the Ativan for a few weeks at a time, then taken a  half of Ativan and been off for another 2-3 weeks. I have had no side effects nor withdrawal symptoms. I honestly believe that you should be well into therapy before you actually stop the Ativan. I believe that the Ativan helps control and deal with the panic until we are able to do so on our own through the therapy. I sincerely wish you all the best. Julie * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!

Response:

Hi again Sorry if this message appears in 2 places.  I am new to these message boards and goofed in how I posted.  But I will post this again so its more visible.   And, Philip, this info is for you if you happen to be reading.  I totally lost the thread from our previous messages, and if you have replied and I haven’t answered this is the reason why. I am in the process of tapering off of Ativan, down to 3/4 of a mg from 3 mg’s for G.A.D.  Would someone who has gone off of benzo’s succesfully please give me some encouragement?  I am quite concerned about how the last few bits will affect me. And of course, the more I worry, the more anxious I feel!  If someone out there has some encouraging words I sure would like to hear them! Nothing scary, please, just some good old fashioned support!  My goal is to be med. free and anxiety free. I recently began CBT and am trying to be very positive that this is going to help me.  Thanks so much! Trish

Response:

Cover Up Those Tootsies!

Question:

Warm Feet May Encourage Sleep …snip… So, an intervention as simple as placing a hot water bottle at the feet, or covering the feet with socks, could help induce sleep more quickly, Dr. Wirz-Justice and her team speculate. This may be particularly useful for individuals with poor vasodilation, the investigators add. Nature 1999;401:36-37. Copyright =A9 1999 Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved.

I could have told them that.  If my feet are cold, I can’t/don’t sleep.   That simple.   — Di dabell at access1 dot net

Response:

Warm Feet May Encourage Sleep WESTPORT, Sep 02 (Reuters Health) – Inadequate vasodilation appears to be at the root of some sleep disorders, particularly those associated with aging or somatic illness, according to new findings linking vasodilation in the extremities to the onset of sleep. In two separate studies, Dr. Anne Wirz-Justice, of the Psychiatric University Clinic in Basel, Switzerland, and others assigned 10 healthy young men to receive one of several interventions that "…had different thermoregulatory effects. These included melatonin, a night light, or both in the evening, or a carbohydrate-rich meal in the morning or evening. They then assessed the effects of these interventions on sleep latency, measured using electroencephalogram recordings, the investigators explain in the September 2nd issue of Nature. When the Swiss team examined the factors that predicted sleep onset in the group, "…vasodilation of distal skin regions," rather than diet, light or melatonin administration, "…was the best predictor of the body’s readiness for sleep." The finding makes sense, the authors say, since one of the early steps the body takes in preparation for sleep is lowering of core body temperature. "Even lying down increases sleepiness by redistributing heat in the body from the core to the periphery," where it is released, they explain. So, an intervention as simple as placing a hot water bottle at the feet, or covering the feet with socks, could help induce sleep more quickly, Dr. Wirz-Justice and her team speculate. This may be particularly useful for individuals with poor vasodilation, the investigators add. Nature 1999;401:36-37. Copyright

Help! Partner Lacks Understanding!

Question:

~ Ronbo ~ <ronb…@webtv.net> wrote in message news:20662-3790DA6B-65@newsd-122.bryant.webtv.net… For me, anyone who is not empathetic to my pain or ill-heath and you have to go out of your way to prove to this person that you are ill is just not worth being a friend or spouse. There are lots of caring people out there, find them and treasure them. Ron M. Ron, Like I saif to JBF mate – you just crucified but did you have the Messiah or just a naughty little boy? The guy may be SO in love that his emotion wont let him THINK of her being sick. Happened to me with my wife! — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

Response:

John B. Fisher <john_b_fis…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:0rak3.10494$Qk.18596@news2.mco… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> gregh wrote: > > Johnno, > > Trial and execution without proof, just circumstantial > > evidence, mate. … This guy may just be SO in love > > with her that he cant emotionally take the thought of > > her being sick and rejects the notion. Been there and > > been through it with my wife who I had to realise was > > like that, first and then do something about it to ensure > > I didnt die last year or the year before. … She loved me > > too much to kill me by stupidity!  I really hated doing it > > but it was literally causing me massive chest pains. > Guilty as charged.  Thanks for your post, and the observation that other > reasons might be causing this behaviour.  Thanks for taking the time to > provide a different voice to the matter.

JBF, We live and we learn. The longer I live, the longer I learn. The longer I learn, the longer I live! ;-} — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

Response:

In article <379126A6.A1C79…@earthlink.net>, Patrick Richards  <patricha…@earthlink.net> wrote: >I have been on cpap for 6 months with no relief.  My titration showed that >I sleep with no apneas but I only had 10% Stage 1, 75% Stage 2, 5% Stage 3, >No Stage 4 and 10% REM.

Then why was CPAP prescribed? It doesn’t seem like you have any problem that CPAP can address. — Planet Bog — pools of toxic chemicals bubble under a choking atomsphere of poisonous gases… but aside from that, it’s not much like Earth.

Response:

In article <5u4k3.9865$Qk.17…@news2.mco>, John B. Fisher <john_b_fis…@bellsouth.net> wrote: >ame wrote: >> I want him to read this NG, I think that might help.  He >> hates doctors and thinks if someone "suggests" an illness, >> you think you have it. More $$$ for doctors, he says.  I even >> dragged him to my neurologist and  he explained so many >> things to him as I asked very obvious questions. >Ame, I hate to be blunt, but let’s face reality here.  Your friend does not >believe doctors.  He has NO intellectual basis for this animosity.

It might be worth asking if he has has any bad experiences with doctors. As many readers here know from first hand experience, a runin with a doctor who is incompetent and unable to diagnose or misdiagnoses your health problems can easily result in a very low opinion of the medical profession, especially since incompetence and arrogance seem to go hand-in-hand in medicine. — Planet Bog — pools of toxic chemicals bubble under a choking atomsphere of poisonous gases… but aside from that, it’s not much like Earth.

Response:

Hi, ya know it seems so difficult for people around us to understand us.  They think we are just lazy, or whatever.  That is exactly why I rely on this ng for support and friendship, cause every single person here understands our each and every sleep problem. It is so frustrating for our loved ones who say they love us not to give a hoot about our oversleeping or undersleeping or breathing or not.  They just don’t want to hear about it.  Maybe it’s just too threatening to them, who knows, but for sure, there is very little and I emphasize little, support outside this group (including the medical professtion) about our sleep problems.  Hang in, and stay with us here on this ng.  We all care a lot.  Deb

Response:

ame wrote: > I want him to read this NG, I think that might help.  He > hates doctors and thinks if someone "suggests" an illness, > you think you have it. More $$$ for doctors, he says.  I even > dragged him to my neurologist and  he explained so many > things to him as I asked very obvious questions.

Ame, I hate to be blunt, but let’s face reality here.  Your friend does not believe doctors.  He has NO intellectual basis for this animosity.  He’s decided that you are just being "lazy", again ignoring any factual input. So, what’s to keep this approach to life from spreading to other areas and making your life miserable, if not even threatening your health.  This is the start of abusive behaviour.  My wife and I have helped a couple of friends who were stuck in such relationships.  You need to understand that he MUST see your point of view.  Unless he is willing to be concerned about your welfare, he will not change. If he can’t adapt, as painful as it might seem, you are better off without him.  Man, I *HATE* saying that.  I *know* how painful that can be.  But I fear for you.  Such an attitude tends to get worse with time.  Unless he’s able to completely turn around several areas of his life (I say that cause it never shows up in just one area), this trend won’t change. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

Response:

ame <amethyst…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:26164-3792BE7E-168@newsd-223.iap.bryant.webtv.net… > that being blunt and being insensitively BLUNT are two different things.

Quite often, BLUNT is all I can understand when in the worst of my sleep apnea physical downtimes. Eg, for my recent birthday, my wife got me a force feedback joystick. I have been so physically down for most of a week (covering my bday) that I cant understand how to play the games I like using it. It will come back when I get through this no doubt. All I am saying is sometimes, BLUNT is better than anything else for me so maybe it is the same for other sleep apnea sufferers on occasion also? See, with BLUNT goes insensitivity in me, for example. Maybe it is the same with others when in the down cycle? — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

Response:

Mr. Fischer, I’m not really sure why you chose to respond to my post regarding the above subject. Just so you know, I face reality head on.  I am a strong intelligent woman with my eyes wide open, even though medical problems are present in my life. As for my boyfriend, you also seemed to doubt his intelligence and question his concern for my welfare.  I believe that he is intelligent, does indeed care about me, but is so HEALTHY that he finds it difficult to understand any illness.  In my opinion, intelligent people are the ONLY ones that question doctors.  Ignorant people just take the prescribed medication, and treat the Dr. like a Higher Power…..   Yes, I did ask for assistance, I do have a serious problem.  I really appreciate this forum, and have been welcomed even though it has been my "home" for only 3 weeks.  I wanted to talk with people who had experienced the same situation with their partners.  I did get several very sensitive, caring replies. Then there was yours.  I would not and could not make serious assumptions and tell someone I didn’t know that their partner was destined to be abusive.   I appreciate the fact that you "fear for me" but I just wanted to say that being blunt and being insensitively BLUNT are two different things. I certainly do not need to have things "sugar coated", but I did find your reply somewhat offensive. ~Ame

Response:

Cpap was probably prescribed for the 41 rdis per hour that I have.  Cpap, by the way, usually stops apnea and hypopia events.  I have copies of both my sleep studies and know what the results are and what they mean. I was posting that I have another problem in addition to sleep apnea but having a heck of a time trying to find out what it is. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -James Buster wrote: > In article <379126A6.A1C79…@earthlink.net>, > Patrick Richards  <patricha…@earthlink.net> wrote: > >I have been on cpap for 6 months with no relief.  My titration showed that > >I sleep with no apneas but I only had 10% Stage 1, 75% Stage 2, 5% Stage 3, > >No Stage 4 and 10% REM. > Then why was CPAP prescribed? It doesn’t seem like you have any > problem that CPAP can address. > — > Planet Bog — pools of toxic chemicals bubble under a choking > atomsphere of poisonous gases… but aside from that, it’s not > much like Earth.

Response:

In article <rep-ya02408000R1707992119270…@news.pacbell.net>, r…@inanna.com says… > I’m quite lucky. My Loved One is the one who noticed I stopped breathing at > night, and is the one who pressed me to to keep seeking help, even though > it took years to find a doctor who believed a woman my age could have sleep > apnea. Now that I have a CPAP machine, we both sleep a lot better!

I guess I’m lucky too. For a couple of years my wife was frustrated that I went to bed late and woke up late, thinking that there must be some quick solution that I just haven’t tried. However, since I found out it was a medical disorder (delayed sleep phase) she has been very understanding. Of course, I still can’t convince my parents. But you can’t have everything. — …  michael moncur …  nos…@starlingtech.com  (yes, it’s a real address) …  Author of various books and maintainer of various Web sites …  Details:  http://www.starlingtech.com/

Response:

REP <r…@inanna.com> wrote in message

news:rep-ya02408000R1707992119270001@news.pacbell.net… > I’m quite lucky. My Loved One is the one who noticed I stopped breathing at > night, and is the one who pressed me to to keep seeking help, even though > it took years to find a doctor who believed a woman my age could have sleep > apnea. Now that I have a CPAP machine, we both sleep a lot better!

Some doctors need to go to medical school to be honest. I have had sleep apnea since the day I was born! — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

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John B. Fisher <john_b_fis…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message news:5u4k3.9865$Qk.17525@news2.mco… > ame wrote: > > I want him to read this NG, I think that might help.  He > > hates doctors and thinks if someone "suggests" an illness, > > you think you have it. More $$$ for doctors, he says.  I even > > dragged him to my neurologist and  he explained so many > > things to him as I asked very obvious questions. > Ame, I hate to be blunt, but let’s face reality here.  Your friend does not > believe doctors.  He has NO intellectual basis for this animosity.  He’s

Johnno, Trial and execution without proof, just circumstantial evidence, mate. Read my reply. This guy may just be SO in love with her that he cant emotionally take the thought of her being sick and rejects the notion. Been there and been through it with my wife who I had to realise was like that, first and then do something about it to ensure I didnt die last year or the year before. I remember one thing I said to her: "I love you very much but if you arent going to realise that what you are doing is physically causing me pains in the chest and down the arm and making me almost black out thus nearly killing me, then I am going to have to do something about being apart from you. My life is short enough without you making it shorter". She loved me too much to kill me by stupidity! I really hated doing it but it was literally causing me massive chest pains. — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

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I’m quite lucky. My Loved One is the one who noticed I stopped breathing at night, and is the one who pressed me to to keep seeking help, even though it took years to find a doctor who believed a woman my age could have sleep apnea. Now that I have a CPAP machine, we both sleep a lot better!

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ame <amethyst…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:22738-37904DAC-27@newsd-222.iap.bryant.webtv.net… > Hello all! > How does everyone else handle the boyfriend/spouse/friend that  does not > believe that sleep disorders exist?  I have Delayed Sleep Phase

My wife wasnt quite like that. She just intellectually knew that my life was shortened but emotionally wouldnt accept that anything was wrong. As a result, every time I told her what she was doing or not doing was really causing me problems, she would sympathise and say she understood but continue the same way. It took ME to understand that she full well KNEW what was going on but didnt want to face it. For my own life, I had to MAKE her understand. She did a whole heap of crying when I forced her to face it but things have been a lot better ever since. > Disorder, and he knew that going into our relationship 2 yrs ago.  Now > it is tearing us apart as I walk around like a zombie, trying to be > "awake" when he wants me to.  I can’t do it anymore… > I want him to read this NG, I think that might help.  He hates doctors > and thinks if someone "suggests" an illness, you think you have it. More > $$$ for doctors, he says.  I even dragged him to my neurologist and  he > explained so many things to him as I asked very obvious questions.

First off, see if he is being something like my wife was. Is he just refusing to see it because he doesnt want to think of you as having problems because he LOVES you so much or is he just an asshole? If the former, then MAKE him understand. Dont let him say "yeah yeah" and walk away. Make it known to him how important it is that he pay attention and go through it and then maybe he will come around. If he is just an asshole, well you already have one so why do you need two???? — Remove the anti-spammer stuff

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gregh wrote: > Johnno, > Trial and execution without proof, just circumstantial > evidence, mate. … This guy may just be SO in love > with her that he cant emotionally take the thought of > her being sick and rejects the notion. Been there and > been through it with my wife who I had to realise was > like that, first and then do something about it to ensure > I didnt die last year or the year before. … She loved me > too much to kill me by stupidity!  I really hated doing it > but it was literally causing me massive chest pains.

Guilty as charged.  Thanks for your post, and the observation that other reasons might be causing this behaviour.  Thanks for taking the time to provide a different voice to the matter. Regards, =jbf= John B. Fisher

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For me, anyone who is not empathetic to my pain or

Need clinic in Northen California

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Stanford sleep clinic is great, but, it charges an arm and a leg.  and for someone with PLMS I don’t have one to spare.  Can any one out there help me find an affordable clinic.  I have Lifegard Insurance and they only cover sleep aponia.  So I’m going to be paying for this on my own.  Unless someone has been able to get them to pay.

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What does Stanford charge if I may ask. A sleep test is a sleep test.  If your insurance covers apnea then what do you want a test for?  My poor brain is trying.  If you have PLMS then would you not just need the right medication and the right dose?  If you go to the sandman’s web site there is a RLS group that might be able to help also. There is a DME called SleepQuest that I have done business with, that does home tests that should be cheaper than a sleep clinic.  Their web site is http://www.sleepquest.com/.  As far as I know there is a clinic is San Francisco and San Jose, maybe two in San Jose, and also Sequoia in Redwood City that you could call. Los Gatos Clinical Monitoring Center, Inc. Sleep Disorders Center 555 Knowles Drive, Suite 218  Los Gatos, CA  95032 Attn: Tom Pace, RPSGT, Clinical Coordinator, Laughton Miles, M.D., Ph.D.  Phone: 408-341-2080, Fax:  408-341-2088. C…@sleepscape.com  http://www.sleepscape.com Redwood City Sequoia Sleep Disorders Center Sequoia Hospital 170 Alameda de las Pulgas Redwood City, CA  94062-2799 Attn: J. Al Reichert, RPSGT, Bernhard Votteri, M.D., Medical Director  Phone:  650-367-5137, Fax:  650-363-5304. sl…@sleepscene.com  http://www.sleepscene.com San Francisco Stanford Health Services Sleep Clinic in San Francisco 2340 Clay Street, Suite 237  San Francisco, CA  94115-1932 Attn: Bruce T. Adornato, M.D., Christopher R. Brown, M.D., Rowena Korobkin, M.D., Alex Clerk, M.D., Clete Kushida, M.D., Ph.D., Anstella Robinson  Phone:  415-923-3336, Fax:   415-923-3584. UCSF/Stanford Sleep Disorders Center University of California, San Francisco 1600 Divisadero Street   San Francisco, CA 94115 Attn: David M. Claman, M.D., Kimberly A. Trotter, MA, RPSGT  Phone: 415-885-7886, Fax:  415-885-3650. These I got compliments of Kent Taylors links!!! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -heypa…@earthlink.net wrote: > Stanford sleep clinic is great, but, it charges an arm and a leg.  and for > someone with PLMS I don’t have one to spare.  Can any one out there help me > find an affordable clinic.  I have Lifegard Insurance and they only cover > sleep aponia.  So I’m going to be paying for this on my own.  Unless someone > has been able to get them to pay.

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Waiting for Dr.'s call from 2nd sleep study

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Warning – long one………I need some encourgagement.  I have been also lurking here for several weeks gleaning info and learning the terminology. I was diagnosed with fibromyalgia in 1996 (and  self-diagnosed chronic fatigue because of the constant tiredness).  In Feb. 99 I asked for a referral to a pulmonary dr. because I was having trouble getting adult onset asthma/bronchitis under control.  The pulmonologist didn’t address those at all and wanted me to get a referral to sleep disorders clinic(?).  At first I was livid, but then I began the education process. I had heard and knew little about OSA. It took over 2 months (Apr 27) to be scheduled for 1st study. The dr. called me a little over a week later and said that my test hadn’t been conclusive and that the tech was "premature" to have put me on a CPAP (2:30 AM). I went in on May 7 for a 2nd study.  The dr. ordered no CPAP unless critical.  If I didn’t test for SA I was going to have to stay for MLST (napping) the next day.  The tech told me at about 2:30 am to prepare myself to stay the next day; that nothing was happening.  As it turned out at about 4 am I finally fell into a deep sleep and began the apnea.  The tech announced in the am tht I wouldn’t have to stay, but she wasn’t sure that I had exhibited apnea long enough for the dr.’s satisfaction, because it was so early in the am.  Test was over at 7 am. At this point, I am just waiting for the call.  My life for the last several years has been workig and sleeping – -no energy for anything and I sleep almost my entire weekends away (trying to "catch up," I guess).  Once I starting researching (I’m an info addict), it all began to make sense to me.  What I am fearful of is that the dr. will say that my apnea is not "bad enough" to try the CPAP.  I desperately want the chance to change the quality of my life and the dr. seems to hold the power to help that happen for me.  Since my second study, I have week awaking every 2 hrs thoughout the night (w/assoc. bathroom visits).  I need to break this cycle as well. I know that some of you have experienced the same frustrating experience and if you have any thoughts to share while I "wait," I’d appreciate hearing them. I apologize for the long message (and this is the abbrev. version!!).  Sleep well. Diane H p.s.  Last night I read a message about a Mirc site where people chat about OSA. I haven’t been successful in making it to that site, although I have download Mirc software (a lot of porno groups out there).  Is that worth checking out further?

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In article <19990516170333.09788.00001…@ng37.aol.com>, DIHOYER <diho…@aol.com> writes [...] >p.s.  Last night I read a message about a Mirc site where people chat about >OSA. >I haven’t been successful in making it to that site, although I have download >Mirc software (a lot of porno groups out there).  Is that worth checking out >further?

You need to connect to a StarLink IRC server, go to: http://www.starlink-irc.org/index.servers.html To find the server nearest you, you should then find the OSA channel. Regards, Paul —      Paul Kemp      anti – spam/UCE measures follow:- :@:  E mail      :@: Home Page: http://www.kemp.demon.co.uk/          :@: :@:  paul@kemp.  :@: ICQ Pager: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/1914266      :@: :@:  demon.co.uk :@: This is *NOT* my Email address: ab…@demon.net  :@:

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DIHOYER wrote: > Warning – long one………I need some encourgagement.   > At this point, I am just waiting for the call. What I am > fearful of is that the dr. will say that my apnea is not "bad enough" >to try > the CPAP.  I desperately want the chance to change the quality of my >life and > the dr. seems to hold the power to help that happen for me.  Since my second > study, I have week awaking every 2 hrs thoughout the night (w/assoc. bathroom > visits).  I need to break this cycle as well.

Diane, I had the bathroom break problem as well. I’d be up about three or four times each night. Could go all day without ever visiting the bathroom, but as soon as I went to sleep, …  Using CPAP has stopped that completely, and from what others on the group have said, CPAP has a good chance of breaking that cycle for you. As far as your doc is concerned, some doctors are rather incommunicado. Maybe it’s not the doctor but his/her staff who keep holding things up. But this is your health, so you might want to be proactive and keep calling back and asking for results. If nothing else, they might work with you to stop the constant calls. Be persistent, even if pushing the issue might be against your nature. And educate yourself. My experience is that if I educate myself without sounding as if I want to chanllegne the doctor’s authority, I usually get what I need. Many doctors are quite receptive to patient suggestions, but it might require a visit in which you stand up for yourself and not just accept a diagnosis. Ask questions, and stay on their case. Good luck. Carsten Schmidtke

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Thanks for your response.  I needed that.

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Thanks for the tip.  I was finally able to hook up last night.  Had a nice chat with someone from Seattle.

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