Diagnosis – the UK experience

Question:

Following my postings of early January ‘Anyone in UK’ I said I would keep the list informed of my progress through the UK  NHS (National Health System). The blood tests were analysed within a week. I have a feeling that the Thyroid results were my GP’s focus and they were normal. He was surprised at  a higher than average glucose level (the blood had been taken after fasting) and we will have another blood test next week – and further hospital tests if necessary – in case diabetes is a factor. Fatigue, I believe, is also a symptom in diabetes. I have now been referred to a sleep specialist at the ENT hospital and have just notice of  their earliest available appointment – first week of May this year.  Overweight contributes to problems in both apnoea and diabetes so I am working around to gradually improve my diet. Luckily (?) I know there is a lot of surplus in my present one! Clive.

Response:

On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 10:35:52 -0000, "Clive Sollish" <clivesoll…@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote: >Following my postings of early January ‘Anyone in UK’ I said I would keep >the list informed of my progress through the UK  NHS (National Health >System). The blood tests were analysed within a week. I have a feeling that >the Thyroid results were my GP’s focus and they were normal. He was >surprised at  a higher than average glucose level (the blood had been taken >after fasting) and we will have another blood test next week – and further >hospital tests if necessary – in case diabetes is a factor. Fatigue, I >believe, is also a symptom in diabetes. I have now been referred to a sleep >specialist at the ENT hospital and have just notice of  their earliest >available appointment – first week of May this year.  Overweight contributes >to problems in both apnoea and diabetes so I am working around to gradually >improve my diet. Luckily (?) I know there is a lot of surplus in my present >one!

Clive Having been through the mill on both of these issues in the last year and a half (NHS and private), I think that I can give you some information that will be of help. Although diabetes isn’t strictly on topic for this group, there are a few people here in the UK with both OSA and diabetes and there are overlapping factors with all of this.   Have a look also in the alt.support.diabetes.uk newsgroup.   This has good people, good signal to noise ratio and predominantly good help in my experience. The first point to realise is that you do have to look at the UK situation of what is available to you.   While some of the clinical practices in other countries may appear to be or actually are better clinically is always a debate, but rather an academic one since it is not operated where we are. The NHS, especially, has cookie-cutter approaches in terms of the diagnosis, treatment and management of most common ailments.  A lot of this comes from the National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE). Take a look at their web site and you will find papers with guidelines for many things.   These are handed out to the Primary Care Trusts and Hospital Trusts.  Many of the guidelines have more detailed clinical information with references to the clinical studies to back up the policies.  One thing that you will realise is that the thinking behind many of them is how to obtain the optimum outcome for the minimum expenditure, in an attempt to cover as many people as they can. Therefore you will notice that diagnostic tests and various other factors are often a subset or organised in a different way to other countries.  Rather than throwing a battery of tests at you in one hit, it gets done in stages, proceeding to the next step depending on the outcome of the present one.     This of course becomes intensely frustrating for the patient because of all of the hanging around waiting for appointments etc.  The game is partly one of keeping waiting times below certain figures, so patients are passed from step to step with a "shortish" delay at each step.  Of course the elapsed time from start to finish can be quite long, but overall it doesn’t get flagged on the statistics.   This is all from my own experience and from talking to various people working in the NHS at several levels who have admitted that this is what goes on. Once you are in the system, you can squeeze a bit for sooner appointments, but frankly this is quite limited.   If you are flexible on timing and cancellations then that can help. The GP is an important factor in it all because he is the gatekeeper to whichever paths you need to follow, so it is important to push for the right referrals with him.  If you feel that you are not getting the support and referral that you need, then you can change – even to another doctor in the same practice.   Obviously frying pans and fires spring to mind here though. My own experience with OSA was one almost of desperation from feeling totally exhausted as a result of poor quality sleep, low oxygen during sleep and so on.   Because of this and my business activities, I had come to the point where it had to be addressed and as quickly as possible.   I discussed the whole thing with the GP and it was clear that via the NHS track, OSA diagnosis and treatment was going to take 6 months, possibly more.   There were no options to accelerate that. I have a fairly standard UK private healthcare policy.   The insurer will pay for diagnosis of ailments like OSA, but not for the equipment such as CPAP or follow-ups.   The guiding principle is to address acute and short term, especially surgical issues, but not anything chronic.   So for OSA, they draw the line after the study and I had to pay for the CPAP equipment and follow up visits to the specialist after the first.     I went for this, and from GP referral to diagnosis and having first CPAP machine to try took two weeks.  This consisted of two meetings with a consultant pulmonologist plus overnight sleep study.   Both in this scenario, and almost entirely in the NHS, this type of study is set up specifically to screen and diagnose OSA and other sleep disordered breathing.  They do not tend to do polysomnograms in the first instance unless there is strong evidence to suggest a need.  The argument is that if the patient has OSA, it needs to be treated anyway.  If the patient still has other sleep issues after that (typically neurological in nature), then they go down that track. The result for me was instant success.  Had there been problems with masks etc. the backup was there from the manufacturer directly. I’ve had a couple of follow up meetings with my pulmonologist this week and we talked briefly about how OSA diagnosis and treatment works in the NHS.  He does some work in each sector.    He told me that the biggest issue is that the whole area is underfunded – it just doesn’t have the visibility.   You can deduce this from the fairly scant information that NICE has.   There has been a Sleep Apnoea Bill going through Parliament as an attempt to raise awareness and get resources, but it rather looks as though it will crash and burn this time.  The thrust of it is that OSA is a serious problem in terms of long term consequences and the potential cost to the NHS to deal with them and that there is a lack of joined-up-ness with people not being allowed to drive with untreated OSA, but there being inadequate resources to deal with the problem. In the UK, virtually all of the NHS diagnosis centres are run in respiratory medicine departments of hospitals (look on the Sleep Apnoea Trust web site for details), so you get to see a pulmonologist. Considering the protocol of OSA diagnosis first, this is reasonable. You get referral elsewhere if needed for other tests related to other sleep disorders.    My pulmonologist told me that in his centre they get quite a lot of patients with snore and not OSA and a small number with various other sleep disorders.  These people are referred on to neurologists etc. I’m a bit bothered that your GP is considering putting you along an ENT track.   First of all, very few of the OSA diagnostic centres are in ENT departments.  Secondly, ENT surgery is now specifically discouraged within the NICE framework, so as far as I am aware is hardly ever used in the NHS world.    It’s entirely possible that your GP is not up to date because surgery was considered an attracive option a few years ago.   It was relatively cheap to do and the hope was that it was a permanent cure for OSA – you can see the attraction. Of course, experience has shown that soft tissue surgeries like UPPP have poor success rate often in a short timescale as well as it not being reversible.   It’s possible that the GP believes that there are other ENT issues to correct, but to me this raises a red flag, so I would ask the GP what the intent is of the ENT visit and what he understands that they typically do.    That will tell you more. So…..  regarding OSA, from what you describe of yourself, you are a candidate.    If you don’t have any private medical cover, but you can find approx.

Diabetes and Insomnia

Question:

Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!! Steve.

Response:

Most of my sleep problems before I was dx’ed where caused by neuropathy and frequent trips to the loo…   Martian   ( another Steve)

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!!

I suffered very badly from insomnia before diagnosis and for quite a while after.  Once my sugars got down to a reasonable level I found it much beter.  I did notice that when I couldn’t sleep that my heartrate was raised – presumably from pumping the thicker blood around. — Steve Brassett Type 2 DX May 2003 – Pills, diet & exercise

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!! Steve. Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night.

A few  small points here (I also have obstructive sleep apnoea). OSA often does correlate with being overweight, so in that sense may overlap with T2 diabetes.   The stereotype is of a middle aged male, overweight, who snores and has a collar size of 43cm or more. However: – OSA can occur without snoring. – It can happen to women as well. – It can happen to people who are not overweight, – to people who don’t have large necks – to people who are young, including babies. – to people who are perfectly fit such as American football players. Sometimes GPs will not suspect OSA if the patient doesn’t fit one of the stereotypes, and although it is quite common (about 5% of the population), many know little about it. It needs to be taken just as seriously as diabetes because apart from the direct impact of poor quality sleep (e.g. accidents), if not treated, there are a raft of other possible complications including hypertension, stroke, heart attack and a variety of others stemming from the reduction in blood oxygen saturation. In the UK, as in many other countries, it is illegal to drive with untreated OSA, and can carry a custodial sentence. Now the good news. Fortunately there is good and effective treatment, typically using nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) – basically a small airblower which operates via a mask or equivalent arrangement and splints the airways open during sleep.   It sounds bad but for most people, actually isn’t. In the past, there have been surgical treatments involving ENT surgery, but these have a poor success rate. There are a couple of simple things that can be done as an initial patient thing – Epworth Sleepiness Test.  This is a questionnaire based test which needs to be answered honestly. http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html – Ask a partner if they notice any stopping of breathing and gasping during sleep. If unsure, push for a referral to a sleep clinic.  In the UK, these are generally run by pulmonology departments.   There are various tests that can be done for OSA, ranging from detection of blood oxygen desaturation while asleep to polysomnograms with a whole bunch of equipment such as EEG, ECG and so on. The OP may have other sleep disorders and it may be that further referral for neurological tests could be needed, typically in a sleep lab. — .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!! Steve.

Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. VBH T2/UK/A1c 5.6/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03

Response:

Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night.

The phrase "limp dishrag" comes to mind. A few  small points here (I also have obstructive sleep apnoea). OSA often does correlate with being overweight, so in that sense may overlap with T2 diabetes.  

The two often occur together. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The stereotype is of a middle aged male, overweight, who snores and has a collar size of 43cm or more. However: – OSA can occur without snoring. – It can happen to women as well. – It can happen to people who are not overweight, – to people who don’t have large necks – to people who are young, including babies. – to people who are perfectly fit such as American football players. Sometimes GPs will not suspect OSA if the patient doesn’t fit one of the stereotypes, and although it is quite common (about 5% of the population), many know little about it. It needs to be taken just as seriously as diabetes because apart from the direct impact of poor quality sleep (e.g. accidents), if not treated, there are a raft of other possible complications including hypertension, stroke, heart attack and a variety of others stemming from the reduction in blood oxygen saturation.

By the time I was dx’d with OSA [2 years before dx with DM], I was having aural hallucinations [having non-existent conversations with equally non-existent people, seeing things in strange colours] and having blackouts. It was picked up when hubby stayed up one night and recorded the number of times I stopped breathing [3-5 per hour] and for how long [average 17 seconds, longest 47 seconds]. In the UK, as in many other countries, it is illegal to drive with untreated OSA, and can carry a custodial sentence.

And well it should do. The idea of being behind the wheel of a car in the state I was in is, frankly, horrifying. Now the good news. Fortunately there is good and effective treatment, typically using nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) – basically a small airblower which operates via a mask or equivalent arrangement and splints the airways open during sleep.   It sounds bad but for most people, actually isn’t.

It took no time at all to get used to using the machine. And getting up feeling rested is something you don’t appreciate until you haven’t done so for a while. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the past, there have been surgical treatments involving ENT surgery, but these have a poor success rate. There are a couple of simple things that can be done as an initial patient thing – Epworth Sleepiness Test.  This is a questionnaire based test which needs to be answered honestly. http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html – Ask a partner if they notice any stopping of breathing and gasping during sleep. If unsure, push for a referral to a sleep clinic.  In the UK, these are generally run by pulmonology departments.   There are various tests that can be done for OSA, ranging from detection of blood oxygen desaturation while asleep to polysomnograms with a whole bunch of equipment such as EEG, ECG and so on. The OP may have other sleep disorders and it may be that further referral for neurological tests could be needed, typically in a sleep lab.

Agreed, since the longer it [whether OSA or something else] goes untreated, the worse the symptoms will get, and you could end up being treated for mental health problems – I was wrongly dx’d with depression before dx with OSA. Maggie — Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent. – RD Laing

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. The phrase "limp dishrag" comes to mind. A few  small points here (I also have obstructive sleep apnoea). OSA often does correlate with being overweight, so in that sense may overlap with T2 diabetes.   The two often occur together.

I suppose that’s not surprising.   There doesn’t appear to be a direct causal relationship between them, but kilogrammatic challenge is the most likely from what I read. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The stereotype is of a middle aged male, overweight, who snores and has a collar size of 43cm or more. However: – OSA can occur without snoring. – It can happen to women as well. – It can happen to people who are not overweight, – to people who don’t have large necks – to people who are young, including babies. – to people who are perfectly fit such as American football players. Sometimes GPs will not suspect OSA if the patient doesn’t fit one of the stereotypes, and although it is quite common (about 5% of the population), many know little about it. It needs to be taken just as seriously as diabetes because apart from the direct impact of poor quality sleep (e.g. accidents), if not treated, there are a raft of other possible complications including hypertension, stroke, heart attack and a variety of others stemming from the reduction in blood oxygen saturation. By the time I was dx’d with OSA [2 years before dx with DM], I was having aural hallucinations [having non-existent conversations with equally non-existent people, seeing things in strange colours] and having blackouts.

That’s pretty bad.   I tended to sleep poorly and be generally tired. It was picked up when hubby stayed up one night and recorded the number of times I stopped breathing [3-5 per hour] and for how long [average 17 seconds, longest 47 seconds].

That’s fairly mid-range in the scheme of things for OSA. In the UK, as in many other countries, it is illegal to drive with untreated OSA, and can carry a custodial sentence. And well it should do. The idea of being behind the wheel of a car in the state I was in is, frankly, horrifying.

OSA has its own "test strip" issue: – Illegal to drive once diagnosed until treated. – Lack of diagnostic and treatment facilities. – Long waiting periods. – Private insurance will pay for diagnosis but not for treatment equipment. Now the good news. Fortunately there is good and effective treatment, typically using nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) – basically a small airblower which operates via a mask or equivalent arrangement and splints the airways open during sleep.   It sounds bad but for most people, actually isn’t. It took no time at all to get used to using the machine. And getting up feeling rested is something you don’t appreciate until you haven’t done so for a while.

Likewise, although for some people it can take weeks or even months to notice a difference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the past, there have been surgical treatments involving ENT surgery, but these have a poor success rate. There are a couple of simple things that can be done as an initial patient thing – Epworth Sleepiness Test.  This is a questionnaire based test which needs to be answered honestly. http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html – Ask a partner if they notice any stopping of breathing and gasping during sleep. If unsure, push for a referral to a sleep clinic.  In the UK, these are generally run by pulmonology departments.   There are various tests that can be done for OSA, ranging from detection of blood oxygen desaturation while asleep to polysomnograms with a whole bunch of equipment such as EEG, ECG and so on. The OP may have other sleep disorders and it may be that further referral for neurological tests could be needed, typically in a sleep lab. Agreed, since the longer it [whether OSA or something else] goes untreated, the worse the symptoms will get, and you could end up being treated for mental health problems – I was wrongly dx’d with depression before dx with OSA.

I tend to think that there’s a whole bunch of overlapping health issues with all of this – a kind of vicious circle. If you think about it: – What do people do if they are feeling tired during the day? Stimulants and sugary drinks and snacks.   Result is a sugar/insulin rollercoaster. – What do they do if feeling depressed or stressed? Comfort eat, especially carbohydrate, because it results in serotonin release. Both phenomena lay the groundwork for weight gain and T2 diabetes, and possibly apnoea. It’s hard to say where the entrance to all this starts, but one can see the relationships. Maggie

– .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suffered very badly from insomnia before diagnosis and for quite a while after.  Once my sugars got down to a reasonable level I found it much beter.  I did notice that when I couldn’t sleep that my heartrate was raised – presumably from pumping the thicker blood around. Yup I had the same problem before DX, mainly because I was having to get up 5 times each night to go to the toilet!! Interesting that you say you had an elevated heartrate when you couldn’t sleep, I often have the same when I wake up in the middle of night, which i usually think means that my blood sugar is low, but then I check and it isn’t.

Steve, Both of these are also classical sleep apnoea symptoms. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/63lbg and http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/118/3/591 as examples. Don’t assume that because you are not a stereotype for OSA (e.g. not overweight) that it isn’t possible.   It could be. It would be a good idea to get it checked if these are still issues. — .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night.

Not a snorer according to the wife, and am a pretty typical skinny T1. I saw a documentary on sleep apnia last year tho, found it fascinating – I had no idea that so many people suffered from it and the extent to which it messed up their lives.

Response:

I suffered very badly from insomnia before diagnosis and for quite a while after.  Once my sugars got down to a reasonable level I found it much beter.  I did notice that when I couldn’t sleep that my heartrate was raised – presumably from pumping the thicker blood around.

Yup I had the same problem before DX, mainly because I was having to get up 5 times each night to go to the toilet!! Interesting that you say you had an elevated heartrate when you couldn’t sleep, I often have the same when I wake up in the middle of night, which i usually think means that my blood sugar is low, but then I check and it isn’t.

Response:

careful Steve at 5′6" and 125 lbs i was diagnosed with Sleep Apnea but if you aren’t waking up gasping for breath (you don’t know you wake up btw) then you are probably safe if you have the video equipment to record a night’s sleep i would do that just to double check kate — Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org — /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. Not a snorer according to the wife, and am a pretty typical skinny T1. I saw a documentary on sleep apnia last year tho, found it fascinating – I had no idea that so many people suffered from it and the extent to which it messed up their lives.

Response:

|

| | Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer?  More of a problem in | overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us.  A condition | where you stop breathing while sleeping.  Leads to a definite loss of | sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after | bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. | | |Not a snorer according to the wife, and am a pretty typical skinny T1. I saw |a documentary on sleep apnia last year tho, found it fascinating – I had no |idea that so many people suffered from it and the extent to which it messed |up their lives. | Hi All FWIW my snore-o-meter (swmbo) advises me that I changed from loud, long and frequent to gentle, short duration and infrequent within a couple of months of ceasing smoking. I remind readers that we are discussing snoring, not other bedroom matters. Apparently my snoring diminished even further when I lost a lot of weight a year later after I was dx. Of course, I don’t believe I ever snored anyway. But, somehow, when I was away from base on deployment in the RAAF, I always got my own room when the others shared:-) Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and carbs to email. — Everything in Moderation – Except Laughter.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Both of these are also classical sleep apnoea symptoms. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/63lbg and http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/118/3/591 as examples. Don’t assume that because you are not a stereotype for OSA (e.g. not overweight) that it isn’t possible.   It could be. It would be a good idea to get it checked if these are still issues. Andy, thanks for the links, I guess it obviously something worth considering, I’ll ask the wife to look out for any signs of osa, maybe try and borrow a video camera off a friend.

It certainly wouldn’t hurt.  You could also try the Epworth Sleepiness Test, which is a questionnaire based and about daytime sleepiness. Answer it honestly and the results can be useful as another data point. If you’re in any doubt, do discuss with the doctor and ask for a sleep study referral. Obviously doing these things in the wrong order would be amusing, not sure what the wife would make of me setting up a camera in the bedroom with no explanation!!!!

Dual purpose I suppose.   Just make sure you keep the tape. — .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic??

Oh yes! It’s not that I can’t sleep I just don’t seem to need as much – I can be happily working away on something (nerd alert: computer systems guy) and I stop when I feel tired – but this can be any time from midnight to 4am. I’m generally woken by the alarm clock at 7am and, hey ho, off to work. I have always found it takes me a good hour to drop off to sleep if I go to bed at a ‘normal’ time (say 11pm) and I often listen to the radio for the duration, but if I go to bed a 4am I’m generally asleep in 10 mins. I don’t feel tired all the time, have no problems driving etc. and I don’t stay awake until such ludicrous times every day – maybe just 2 times a week – and whether it’s doing me any serious damage…not sure! SJH

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Both of these are also classical sleep apnoea symptoms. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/63lbg and http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/118/3/591 as examples. Don’t assume that because you are not a stereotype for OSA (e.g. not overweight) that it isn’t possible.   It could be. It would be a good idea to get it checked if these are still issues.

Andy, thanks for the links, I guess it obviously something worth considering, I’ll ask the wife to look out for any signs of osa, maybe try and borrow a video camera off a friend. Obviously doing these things in the wrong order would be amusing, not sure what the wife would make of me setting up a camera in the bedroom with no explanation!!!!

Response:

Anyone in UK

Question:

"Clive Sollish" <clivesoll…@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote in message

news:cs11r2$oo9$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi to all who have been following my case. > I have just got back from visit to GP (that in UK-speak is primary health > care provider). Not my usual GP – seeing your regular GP is a rare luxury > in > inner city practices now! With the advice of the support group in my ears > I > presented my symptoms and found I was listened to with understanding. > After > a few more questions and blood pressure check he referred me to the local > hospital for a full set of blood tests. I can walk in for those tomorrow. > Then I go back to see the GP in two weeks and depending on the results of > the blood tests he says he would refer me to a "sleep clinic". I felt that > was a pretty satisfactory outcome? > Clive. > "Tal" <goer…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:34fij1F4bdkjtU1@individual.net… >> > So, as I said, tomorrow I have a doctor’s appointment and I’m looking >> > forward to it. I hope between us we will arrive at the conclusion that > the >> > next step should be a sleep study. I’ll let you know how I get on. >> the next step SHOULD be a sleep study, if your doc suggests otherwise, >> please seek a second opinion.

mmmm….. can only think that the blood tests are to rule out other medical conditions…. With witnessed breathing disorder tho I would have expected that these would have been done along with a referral to either the pulmonologist or even better a sleep clinic. Most GP’s do not have a clue about sleep apnea ….my doc is superb but admits that his education on sleep disordered breathing is scanty. …regular docs receive very little training in sleep disorders, minutes as apposed to hours. Bear this in mind when you see your doc next… If a referral isn’t forthcoming to either of the above start getting proactive and demand one! Frankie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:14:22 +0000, Tony Polson <t…@nospam.net> wrote: >"Clive Sollish" <clivesoll…@REMOVEyahoo.com> wrote: >>Hi to all who have been following my case. >>I have just got back from visit to GP (that in UK-speak is primary health >>care provider). Not my usual GP – seeing your regular GP is a rare luxury in >>inner city practices now! With the advice of the support group in my ears I >>presented my symptoms and found I was listened to with understanding. After >>a few more questions and blood pressure check he referred me to the local >>hospital for a full set of blood tests. I can walk in for those tomorrow. >>Then I go back to see the GP in two weeks and depending on the results of >>the blood tests he says he would refer me to a "sleep clinic". I felt that >>was a pretty satisfactory outcome? >Hi Clive, >It sounds like the GP didn’t listen, and/or doesn’t understand OSAS. >Your blood results will show nothing that could conceivably inform a >diagnosis of OSAS, one way or the other. >OSAS results in oxygen desaturation DURING EPISODES OF APNEAS.   >Period. (Full stop). >OSAS has no measurable effect on your daytime blood characteristics.   >Oxygen desaturations will show up while you are asleep, that’s all. >One night sleeping while wearing a recording pulse oximeter will >identify that.  A proper polysomnograph (comprehensive sleep study) >will show much more. >I cannot imagine what your doctor is looking for in blood tests.  I >suspect you will have much persuading to do in order to obtain the >sleep study you need.  

The concern would be if this is used as a gating factor to getting a referral for a sleep study.    If it is not, then there is nothing wrong with getting a set of blood tests done to make sure that there have been no effects from OSA (if indeed that is what it turns out to be); or indeed that there aren’t other things (I mentioned diabetes) which can have common factors with OSA. >However, if you can afford it, a private referral to a sleep clinic >will achieve the diagnosis you need.  Typically, a consultation, >overnight sleep study and interpretation of results should cost less >than

Is formal testing necessary to diagnose ADD

Question:

Hi- My brother has taken paper screening tests for ADD/AD(H)D and shows he has both inattentive and hyperactive versions. History as a child demonstrates symptoms throughout school as well. Before he sees a psychiatrist for meds, does he need to be formally tested or do they usually just talk to the client and prescribe meds from what they find out from their interview with the client? Any opinions about which is preferable? What experiences have you guys had? Thanks- Susan

Response:

<< Before he sees a psychiatrist for meds, does he need to be formally tested or do they usually just talk to the client and prescribe meds from what they find out from their interview with the client?   The client does not prescribe; The doc prescribes. Just find a good one, hopefully at a university center, or a well-recommended doc. Check out www.chad.org Hope that helps! _______ Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me! <A HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo"http://journal s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A

Response:

Hi- My brother has taken paper screening tests for ADD/AD(H)D and shows he has both inattentive and hyperactive versions. History as a child demonstrates symptoms throughout school as well. Before he sees a psychiatrist for meds, does he need to be formally tested or do they usually just talk to the client and prescribe meds from what they find out from their interview with the client? Any opinions about which is preferable? What experiences have you guys had?

Depends on the doctor.  Some do after an interview, some require more elaborate testing.  If the more elaborate testing includes evaluation for other conditions such as sleep disorders that can show similar symptoms but require different treatments, then it’s desirable.  If it’s just tests of attention-span then it’s probably a waste of money. Thanks- Susan

– –John Reply to jclarke at ae tee tee global dot net (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Response:

: Hi- : My brother has taken paper screening tests for ADD/AD(H)D and shows he : has both inattentive and hyperactive versions. History as a child : demonstrates symptoms throughout school as well. : Before he sees a psychiatrist for meds, does he need to be formally : tested or do they usually just talk to the client and prescribe meds It depends what the psychiatrist decides. Mine will not (NOT) take pts w/o a full 8 hrs of psycho-educational testing from a clinical psychologist. (Which i believe is a wise choice. Knowing the pts problems, strengths and weaknesses intricately is responsible & desirable.) Emma

Response:

Dude! I'm gettin' a… light box!

Question:

"Seratonin hugs" – ROFLMAO….love it!!! Gigglz, you are a hoot!!!! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ultra Kewl, Dotz!  :-)   I can hardly wait until you invite me over to use it!  LOL!! Santa?  Sannnnnttaaaaaaa?  Where are youuuuuu? Seratonin hugs, Gigglz Giggz – this is the one I’m getting: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A little over $200 plus $20 shipping.   Maybe you could ask Santa for one. : ) Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Giggz – this is the one I’m getting: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A little over $200 plus $20 shipping.   Maybe you could ask Santa for one. : )

I emailed them yesterday asking about maintenance.  Mainly how much bulbs cost and how often they need to be replaced.  They replied today already and maintenance sounds like it’s not much to worry about.  It comes with a lifetime guarantee except for the bulbs.  There are only 2 bulbs and they cost $23 each with shipping and handling and a 2 year guarantee.  They are also available through Sylvania (or a distributor).   They are supposed to last 4 to 5 seasons.  I haven’t done a lot of research on the things, but that seems to be the company to get a light box from if you are getting one!  I wish you luck with it, and of course, let us know how it works! Tono — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

I am a wee bit warped, aren’t I???? LMAO!! Gigglz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "Seratonin hugs" – ROFLMAO….love it!!! Gigglz, you are a hoot!!!! smiles, Elise Ultra Kewl, Dotz!  :-)   I can hardly wait until you invite me over to use it!  LOL!! Santa?  Sannnnnttaaaaaaa?  Where are youuuuuu? Seratonin hugs, Gigglz Giggz – this is the one I’m getting: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A little over $200 plus $20 shipping.   Maybe you could ask Santa for one. : ) Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ya know you guys….if I just mooned everyone with my big white bootie…it would be enough light to getcha all thru the winter months! LMBAO! Gigglz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Giggz – this is the one I’m getting: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A little over $200 plus $20 shipping.   Maybe you could ask Santa for one. : ) I emailed them yesterday asking about maintenance.  Mainly how much bulbs cost and how often they need to be replaced.  They replied today already and maintenance sounds like it’s not much to worry about.  It comes with a lifetime guarantee except for the bulbs.  There are only 2 bulbs and they cost $23 each with shipping and handling and a 2 year guarantee.  They are also available through Sylvania (or a distributor).   They are supposed to last 4 to 5 seasons.  I haven’t done a lot of research on the things, but that seems to be the company to get a light box from if you are getting one!  I wish you luck with it, and of course, let us know how it works! Tono — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ya know you guys….if I just mooned everyone with my big white bootie…it would be enough light to getcha all thru the winter months! LMBAO! Gigglz

Could you put a UV filter on that for me? Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ya know you guys….if I just mooned everyone with my big white bootie…it would be enough light to getcha all thru the winter months! LMBAO! Gigglz Could you put a UV filter on that for me? Dot

LOL!  I would be happy to….but can’t find one big enough, Dotz!!! Gigglz p.s.  I have plenty of SPF 40 here you can use! — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Dotz!!  That is so kewl! Tell me more about this light box!  Are they outrageously expensive?  I have no clue.  Guess I could read on Google. Which style is the one you’re looking at?  I think we could use one around here, as well! Yae! Bright hugs, Gigglz

You know how I suffer from winter depression, and I’ve wanted one for years.  We got a line of credit on our house to pay off some bills and take care of some health things (a root canal for Will : )) and he said I could get a light box!  I’m so excited! Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Are you still watching Logan? smiles, Elise

Only on Thursdays but I usually see him another time or two during the week.  He’s going to be two in February – Hell on wheels – but still the joy of my life. Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Dot, what exactly is a light box? I have to admit I’ve never heard of this before!

Christina, I’m sure you know more than you ever wanted to know about them now, thanks to E, Chip, etc.  LOL Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

E – Interesting that it might work for OCD too.  That has been a big problem for me because I obcess on choking on food, although the Paxil has worked wonders for that.  My husband has "hoarding disorder," which is a form of OCD, and has other OCD problems too. I don’t know about the Halogen bulb – I think I’ll stick with the mainstream on this one.  I know the commercial light boxes have filters and such to protect the eyes, which the halogen bulb wouldn’t. Good info. Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Is that something you get naked and lay inside to get a total sun tan ? Tony

No.  That is something completely different.  And then there are the ones that you stand in that dermatologists use to treat psoriasis, and that is something different too. Always learning, huh Tony? Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Giggz – this is the one I’m getting: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A little over $200 plus $20 shipping.   Maybe you could ask Santa for one. : ) Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Come to think of it, you live in an area of the U.S. that has a lot of overcast days, am I right?

Anne, it’s the worst – and a lot of things besides depression are affected by lack of sunlight.  Our state of Washington, for example, has the highest incidence of MS  in the country; in fact, a little town called Enumclaw, up the road, is the champion on that.  : ( Fibromyalgia, too, is much more prevalent in the northern US.  Gigglz probably knows about that. I posted a big thing about Vitamin D and fibromyalgia on Preston’s thread about muscle pain, but it didn’t show up.  Depression is affected by the light entering the retina of the eye, while Vitamin D is produced by the effect of sunlight on the skin (some people get those mixed up).   New info has just been released about the requirements for Vitamin D being much higher than realized (and toxicity limits higher too), so even though I take Vitamin D, I’m not getting enough.  Good news for fibromyalgia and osteoporosis sufferers – possibly a breakthrough.   Who knows – maybe it helps with PD too.  I don’t see anybody from the tropics posting here.  : ) Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

:You know how I suffer from winter depression, and I’ve wanted one for :years.  We got a line of credit on our house to pay off some bills and :take care of some health things (a root canal for Will : )) and he said :I could get a light box!  I’m so excited! Dear Dot, Wonderful that you finally got your light box! I`m so happy for you Please keep us updated as to how it`s working. Wishing you the best of luck with it!! Jackie ~*~Christmas is here: Winds whistle shrill, Icy and chill, Little care we; Little we fear Weather without, Sheltered about The Mahogany Tree~*~  ~William Makepeace Thackeray, The Mahogany Tree~ — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Ultra Kewl, Dotz!  :-)   I can hardly wait until you invite me over to use it!  LOL!! Santa?  Sannnnnttaaaaaaa?  Where are youuuuuu? Seratonin hugs, Gigglz

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Giggz – this is the one I’m getting: http://www.alaskanorthernlights.com/ A little over $200 plus $20 shipping.   Maybe you could ask Santa for one. : ) Dot — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

You know how I suffer from winter depression, and I’ve wanted one for years.  We got a line of credit on our house to pay off some bills and take care of some health things (a root canal for Will : )) and he said I could get a light box!  I’m so excited! Dot

Is that something you get naked and lay inside to get a total sun tan ?  :-D Tony — The charter is available at:  http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Dot, what exactly is a light box? I have to admit I’ve never heard of this before!

Now you can be an expert on light therapy and light boxes, Christina! Chip http://www.northernlighttechnologies.com/eng/phototherapy.htm Light therapy (Phototherapy / Bright light therapy) Light therapy is a simple, medically recognized, efficient treatment to fight Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD), the milder winter blues and some sleep disorders. Research on SAD has shown that it is better to start treatment early in autumn, before the usual onset of symptoms.  Light therapy involves the use of a specially designed lamp that delivers 5,000

how long to stay in bed?

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> You mention soreness going up your leg… >> Can you take one finger and trace the path of the soreness down >> your leg?  Is there any pain associated with the numbness?  Do >> you recall any kind of severe pain right before the numbness >> starting?  Did the numbness and soreness start at the same time? > There’s no pain associated with the numbness, except the soreness > going up the leg on occasion. I don’t think the soreness started > at the same time as the numbness, but maybe a month or two later. > The soreness is intermittent. When I first started getting the > numbness I noticed that when I took ativan — which still worked > to knock me out then — it went away. Ativan no longer has this > effect as it no longer works to get me to sleep anyway. As i’m > not experiencing the soreness down the leg at the moment I’m > not sure if i could trace it with a finger but i suppose i might. > Also, the numbness is more severe on the bottom of the right foot > than the left foot. On the left foot it is barely noticeable and > sometimes not at all. > tomw

I would consult a neurologist about the soreness and numbness.  thats not normal and could be the result of a bulging, or herniated, disc. Wendy —

Response:

Hi. I have difficulty sleeping through the night sometimes, often.  Melatonin, sold at health food stores is good.  Glad to get all the info on ambien…I take it sometimes.  Benadryl is highly recommended by Loren Mosher, but it makes me drowsy all morning and the sleep I get on it doesn’t feel very productive. Eating helps often, Especially adding honey or fruit.  Honey especially. Advice welcome.  Is it OK to take melatonin long term?  How much to take?  Are there adverse reactions? Chaya ngrossb…@yahoo.com

Response:

Wendy Hankins <partm…@bellsouth.net> wrote in message <news:Xns944BF30FFF8partmapsbellsouthnet@216.77.188.18>… > tlwet…@ix.netcom.com (Tom Wetzel) wrote in > news:e86cade9.0312071752.3e3d9b05@posting.google.com:

To answer the other person first, I don’t think sleep apnea is my problem and neither does the sleep doc. I don’t breath through my mouth or snore. I’ve always slept by laying on my stomach or side, usually with my chin against a pillow, so i couldn’t sleep through my mouth. My ex says I never snored when we were still together, ten years ago. The first time I had the hoarseness in the throat was about five years ago before the beginning of the insomnia. At that time a nose-ear-throat specialist diagnosed it as an allergic reation, that is, the sinuses were swollen and were leaking down the throat, hence irritating the throat. (That time it went away after about a year.) This is one reason i thought this insomnia might an allergic reaction to mold, since i was diagnosed as allergic to wood mold and my house is very old. since i’ve cleaned out the black mold in the basement and started keeping the house clean and running air cleaners these things haven’t made a difference in my sleep but i do notice freer breathing passages in my nose, I think. not right at the moment as i have a oold but in previous weeks. > You mention soreness going up your leg… > Can you take one finger and trace the path of the soreness down your > leg?  Is there any pain associated with the numbness?  Do you recall > any kind of severe pain right before the numbness starting?  Did the > numbness and soreness start at the same time?

There’s no pain associated with the numbness, except the soreness going up the leg on occasion. I don’t think the soreness started at the same time as the numbness, but maybe a month or two later. The soreness is intermittent. When I first started getting the numbness I noticed that when I took ativan — which still worked to knock me out then — it went away. Ativan no longer has this effect as it no longer works to get me to sleep anyway. As i’m not experiencing the soreness down the leg at the moment I’m not sure if i could trace it with a finger but i suppose i might. Also, the numbness is more severe on the bottom of the right foot than the left foot. On the left foot it is barely noticeable and sometimes not at all. tomw

Response:

tlwet…@ix.netcom.com (Tom Wetzel) wrote in news:e86cade9.0312071752.3e3d9b05@posting.google.com: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> At the end of last December I suddenly became > unable to sleep. I mean, it went on for weeks. > But I’d never had insomnia before. > Had noticed during the previous year that > drinking alcohol, in particular, seemed to > make it harder for me to get to sleep or > stay asleep. The stumulus that provoked the > bought of insomnia was being invited to give > a talk at a conference. But I know what > performance anxiety is, it was never before > like this; i’d never had a stark inability > to sleep for night after night. So, I think > the invitation was the provoking event, something > more deep-seated is involved. > I’ve tried to think of things that might have > contributed to the onset, and then have > changed those things, one by one. Drinking was > one (several beers a night, several > nights a week), so I gave up alcohol some months > back. No change. I’d started working out at a gym > the previous October, and gravitated to nights. > So, I switched to days… > no change. I had an onset of hoarseness with > the insomnia. Thought maybe there was some > allergic reaction going on, maybe to mold. So, > I cleaned some mold I found near the central > heating system a couple months ago, > totally cleaned the house, and > installed air cleaners. No change. I’d gone > off of some drugs I’d been taking to keep my > blood sugar down the previous October, > so I thought maybe elevated > blood sugar (I have a tendency to diabetes) > might contribute. So last March I went onto > not one but two anti-diabetic drugs, and got > my blood sugar lower than it had been the previous > year. Still no change. I’d been in the habit of > eating bedtime snacks. So I gave that up about > six months back. No change. > One thing I did notice is that drugs seem to > make things worse. When this first started > I didn’t know what to do other than take > drugs. Was taking various things practically > every nite for several months — ambien, > ativan, sominex etc. After several months > of doing that I got to the point where i was > severly exhausted, I’d lay in bed at night > and I could feel my blood pumping, my muscles > tremoring. I started getting new symptoms, > bottom of the feet became numb, sometimes a > soreness runs up the right leg. (This numbness > thing hasn’t gone away.) > Last month or so I’ve started trying sleep > deprivation therapy, i.e. the "behavior > modification" approach. This has a certain > plausibility in my case. One of the things > that had changed in my life the previous > year was that I had been out of work all > year. So, that means I’d probably gotten into > the habit of staying in bed later. I work as > a writer which is pretty sedintery occupation > anyway, so lolling around the house all day, > not getting out in the sun, probably didn’t help > either. > I think my sleep has gotten marginally better > since I’ve gone off the drug wagon. Instead > of my blood pounding endlessly, I find that > my heart and circlatory system quiets down > in a few minutes after going to bed now. > Typically I enter a sort > of half-awake, drowsy state in about 15 minutes > or so. From there i think i go in and out of > sleep, including dreams sometimes. On some > occasions I actually sleep without awakening > for a number of hours. Nonetheless, despite > this seeming improvement, I still feel dinghy, > exhausted and not very clear-headed almost > every day. > So, I haven’t found a miracle cure here yet. > I do notice that if I allow myself to stay in > bed later than my designated wakeup time — 6:45 — > my sleep is worse the next few nights. Thing is, > I’m not sure how to judge how much time I should > allow myself to stay in bed. The sleep disorders clinic > doc I talked to suggested 7 hours. Most of my life > I’ve usually stayed in bed longer than that, > typically 8 or 9 hours. That’s why 7 hours sounded > plausible to him, I suppose. I’ve also noticed > that if I take any drug — and I’ve done so three > times in the past two weeks — they no longer > work at all. In fact, I think they make things > worse the following nights. However, I’ve only > been seriously pursuing this sleep deprivation > approach the past three weeks. So, maybe this is > too early to tell if this is going to work or > not. > Tom Wetzel > (age 57)

You mention soreness going up your leg… Can you take one finger and trace the path of the soreness down your leg?  Is there any pain associated with the numbness?  Do you recall any kind of severe pain right before the numbness starting?  Did the numbness and soreness start at the same time? Wendy —

Response:

Interesting details you’ve provided. Has anyone observed you sleeping lately?  A lot of what you said, despite you not mentioning some the most typical symptoms, indicates there may be a problem with sleep apnea here. Some of the things that made me say this are as follows. – problems getting to sleep, or waking up very shortly after dozing off –  worse with alochol consumption – worse with sleeping medications – hoarse throat – history of diabetes problems – feeling exhausted, foggy headed – I don’t have time to respond in more details but i’m sure others will bounce of what i’ve said as well as offer insights of their own — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply "Tom Wetzel" <tlwet…@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message

news:e86cade9.0312071752.3e3d9b05@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> At the end of last December I suddenly became > unable to sleep. I mean, it went on for weeks. > But I’d never had insomnia before. > Had noticed during the previous year that > drinking alcohol, in particular, seemed to > make it harder for me to get to sleep or > stay asleep. The stumulus that provoked the > bought of insomnia was being invited to give > a talk at a conference. But I know what > performance anxiety is, it was never before > like this; i’d never had a stark inability > to sleep for night after night. So, I think > the invitation was the provoking event, something > more deep-seated is involved. > I’ve tried to think of things that might have > contributed to the onset, and then have > changed those things, one by one. Drinking was > one (several beers a night, several > nights a week), so I gave up alcohol some months > back. No change. I’d started working out at a gym > the previous October, and gravitated to nights. > So, I switched to days… > no change. I had an onset of hoarseness with > the insomnia. Thought maybe there was some > allergic reaction going on, maybe to mold. So, > I cleaned some mold I found near the central > heating system a couple months ago, > totally cleaned the house, and > installed air cleaners. No change. I’d gone > off of some drugs I’d been taking to keep my > blood sugar down the previous October, > so I thought maybe elevated > blood sugar (I have a tendency to diabetes) > might contribute. So last March I went onto > not one but two anti-diabetic drugs, and got > my blood sugar lower than it had been the previous > year. Still no change. I’d been in the habit of > eating bedtime snacks. So I gave that up about > six months back. No change. > One thing I did notice is that drugs seem to > make things worse. When this first started > I didn’t know what to do other than take > drugs. Was taking various things practically > every nite for several months — ambien, > ativan, sominex etc. After several months > of doing that I got to the point where i was > severly exhausted, I’d lay in bed at night > and I could feel my blood pumping, my muscles > tremoring. I started getting new symptoms, > bottom of the feet became numb, sometimes a > soreness runs up the right leg. (This numbness > thing hasn’t gone away.) > Last month or so I’ve started trying sleep > deprivation therapy, i.e. the "behavior > modification" approach. This has a certain > plausibility in my case. One of the things > that had changed in my life the previous > year was that I had been out of work all > year. So, that means I’d probably gotten into > the habit of staying in bed later. I work as > a writer which is pretty sedintery occupation > anyway, so lolling around the house all day, > not getting out in the sun, probably didn’t help > either. > I think my sleep has gotten marginally better > since I’ve gone off the drug wagon. Instead > of my blood pounding endlessly, I find that > my heart and circlatory system quiets down > in a few minutes after going to bed now. > Typically I enter a sort > of half-awake, drowsy state in about 15 minutes > or so. From there i think i go in and out of > sleep, including dreams sometimes. On some > occasions I actually sleep without awakening > for a number of hours. Nonetheless, despite > this seeming improvement, I still feel dinghy, > exhausted and not very clear-headed almost > every day. > So, I haven’t found a miracle cure here yet. > I do notice that if I allow myself to stay in > bed later than my designated wakeup time — 6:45 — > my sleep is worse the next few nights. Thing is, > I’m not sure how to judge how much time I should > allow myself to stay in bed. The sleep disorders clinic > doc I talked to suggested 7 hours. Most of my life > I’ve usually stayed in bed longer than that, > typically 8 or 9 hours. That’s why 7 hours sounded > plausible to him, I suppose. I’ve also noticed > that if I take any drug — and I’ve done so three > times in the past two weeks — they no longer > work at all. In fact, I think they make things > worse the following nights. However, I’ve only > been seriously pursuing this sleep deprivation > approach the past three weeks. So, maybe this is > too early to tell if this is going to work or > not. > Tom Wetzel > (age 57)

Response:

At the end of last December I suddenly became unable to sleep. I mean, it went on for weeks. But I’d never had insomnia before. Had noticed during the previous year that drinking alcohol, in particular, seemed to make it harder for me to get to sleep or stay asleep. The stumulus that provoked the bought of insomnia was being invited to give a talk at a conference. But I know what performance anxiety is, it was never before like this; i’d never had a stark inability to sleep for night after night. So, I think the invitation was the provoking event, something more deep-seated is involved. I’ve tried to think of things that might have contributed to the onset, and then have changed those things, one by one. Drinking was one (several beers a night, several nights a week), so I gave up alcohol some months back. No change. I’d started working out at a gym the previous October, and gravitated to nights. So, I switched to days… no change. I had an onset of hoarseness with the insomnia. Thought maybe there was some allergic reaction going on, maybe to mold. So, I cleaned some mold I found near the central heating system a couple months ago, totally cleaned the house, and installed air cleaners. No change. I’d gone off of some drugs I’d been taking to keep my blood sugar down the previous October, so I thought maybe elevated blood sugar (I have a tendency to diabetes) might contribute. So last March I went onto not one but two anti-diabetic drugs, and got my blood sugar lower than it had been the previous year. Still no change. I’d been in the habit of eating bedtime snacks. So I gave that up about six months back. No change. One thing I did notice is that drugs seem to make things worse. When this first started I didn’t know what to do other than take drugs. Was taking various things practically every nite for several months — ambien, ativan, sominex etc. After several months of doing that I got to the point where i was severly exhausted, I’d lay in bed at night and I could feel my blood pumping, my muscles tremoring. I started getting new symptoms, bottom of the feet became numb, sometimes a soreness runs up the right leg. (This numbness thing hasn’t gone away.) Last month or so I’ve started trying sleep deprivation therapy, i.e. the "behavior modification" approach. This has a certain plausibility in my case. One of the things that had changed in my life the previous year was that I had been out of work all year. So, that means I’d probably gotten into the habit of staying in bed later. I work as a writer which is pretty sedintery occupation anyway, so lolling around the house all day, not getting out in the sun, probably didn’t help either. I think my sleep has gotten marginally better since I’ve gone off the drug wagon. Instead of my blood pounding endlessly, I find that my heart and circlatory system quiets down in a few minutes after going to bed now. Typically I enter a sort of half-awake, drowsy state in about 15 minutes or so. From there i think i go in and out of sleep, including dreams sometimes. On some occasions I actually sleep without awakening for a number of hours. Nonetheless, despite this seeming improvement, I still feel dinghy, exhausted and not very clear-headed almost every day. So, I haven’t found a miracle cure here yet. I do notice that if I allow myself to stay in bed later than my designated wakeup time — 6:45 — my sleep is worse the next few nights. Thing is, I’m not sure how to judge how much time I should allow myself to stay in bed. The sleep disorders clinic doc I talked to suggested 7 hours. Most of my life I’ve usually stayed in bed longer than that, typically 8 or 9 hours. That’s why 7 hours sounded plausible to him, I suppose. I’ve also noticed that if I take any drug — and I’ve done so three times in the past two weeks — they no longer work at all. In fact, I think they make things worse the following nights. However, I’ve only been seriously pursuing this sleep deprivation approach the past three weeks. So, maybe this is too early to tell if this is going to work or not. Tom Wetzel (age 57)

Response:

I am soooo tired!

Question:

I posted earlier this week about my 6th sleep study.  I finally had to call out sick today, Weds I had 2 classes at work, with a test after one and they gave us the answers and with my memory and concentration problems, I got 47%.  Yesterday, I was pretty much in a fog, several times I had to ask people to repeat what they said, it’s like they were talking too fast for my brain and I kept forgetting what I was doing.  So you can see my work performance has been affected and I just could not drag myself into work again.  Before I got sick with my sleep problems 5 years ago, I had 4 sick days in 15 years. What bothers me is that I used to consider myself a very smart person, it was easy to pick up on new things, and I could remember everything.  But now…I forgot what I was saying.  Humor and trying to keep positive is the only way I can get through this. My next sleep study (the one that will be like starting as a new patient) is next Weds and then meet with the dr on the 20th.  I called his office today to ask him to write me out for at least 2 weeks until my appt and we can talk about the results. I am so glad to have found this website, your posts are interesting, helpful, and it’s  (the word nice doesn’t seem to fit?!) nice to know others are suffering as much as I am, your support means a lot too me.  Thanks

Response:

HI Michael, My kids are always telling me I do not remember anything they tell me and I’m always asking them to repeat things too. Same with my husband. Like you, I feel very thankful to have found this group. It is the people here who have convinced me of the importance of getting a sleep study. I go on Monday night for my first study and I am actually looking forward to finally taking a step I should have taken long ago. Marianne "Michael Reed" <reedste…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:8f7aa.7562$wJ1.728954@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I posted earlier this week about my 6th sleep study.  I finally had to call > out sick today, Weds I had 2 classes at work, with a test after one and they > gave us the answers and with my memory and concentration problems, I got > 47%.  Yesterday, I was pretty much in a fog, several times I had to ask > people to repeat what they said, it’s like they were talking too fast for my > brain and I kept forgetting what I was doing.  So you can see my work > performance has been affected and I just could not drag myself into work > again.  Before I got sick with my sleep problems 5 years ago, I had 4 sick > days in 15 years. > What bothers me is that I used to consider myself a very smart person, it > was easy to pick up on new things, and I could remember everything.  But > now…I forgot what I was saying.  Humor and trying to keep positive is the > only way I can get through this. > My next sleep study (the one that will be like starting as a new patient) is > next Weds and then meet with the dr on the 20th.  I called his office today > to ask him to write me out for at least 2 weeks until my appt and we can > talk about the results. > I am so glad to have found this website, your posts are interesting, > helpful, and it’s  (the word nice doesn’t seem to fit?!) nice to know others > are suffering as much as I am, your support means a lot too me.  Thanks

Response:

Michael, glad you found us. Most of us have been where you are right now and most of us get great relief from CPAP treatment. Hopefully you will too. To make you sure of how not alone you are in this…. This time last year I was completely useless at home. I conserved all my energy for work and still could not concentrate and had none, zero, nada, zip (get the picture ..) patience with my customers (not good for a bartender/waitress who depends on tips!!!). I fell asleep behind the wheel and crashed my car, could have killed myself and countless others if it had not been for some trees that kept me from crashing into Interstate 24 west. Not a good picture at all. Thank God for my husband who insisted on going to the doc with me and making him listen. Now life is much better. Not perfect, yet, but better. I have been on CPAP since July 14. Michael and Marianne, keep posting here, someone will try to help you get over any obstacles you occur along the way. Cindy….I really need to do a personal story for Beth’s page.

Response:

>What bothers me is that I used to consider myself a very smart person, it >was easy to pick up on new things, and I could remember everything.

I know right now it’s hard to keep in mind, but try to remember you (yah, poor choice of words, eh?) are still the same smart guy you always were.  You’re just having a hard time right now.  When you get this all straightened around and aren’t feeling so tired, you’ll feel better mentally as well.  I have awful cognitive problems, but not from sleep problems, so I know pretty much how you are feeling.  I was feeling like pretty much of a dumb bunny for a while, til I realized that I had to still be smart to find as many ways of coping with my shortcomings as I have.  Hang in there! Regards, Sandy in Seattle

Response:

OhMrsJohnson1 wrote: > >What bothers me is that I used to consider myself a very smart person, it > >was easy to pick up on new things, and I could remember everything. > I know right now it’s hard to keep in mind, but try to remember you (yah, poor > choice of words, eh?) are still the same smart guy you always were.  You’re > just having a hard time right now.  When you get this all straightened around > and aren’t feeling so tired, you’ll feel better mentally as well.  I have awful > cognitive problems, but not from sleep problems,

Would you mind ‘revealing’ the cause of your cognitive problems?  Mine have been permanent and non-progressive for a period of 20 years, as determined by neuropsych testing twenty years ago and again recently (along with consistent brain MRIs and SPECTscans. We think mine came about from exposure to neurotoxins in a sick building.  When I started reading here I found that my symptoms were identical to many of those with sleep disorders. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> so I know pretty much how you > are feeling.  I was feeling like pretty much of a dumb bunny for a while, til I > realized that I had to still be smart to find as many ways of coping with my > shortcomings as I have.  Hang in there! > Regards, > Sandy in Seattle

Response:

>Would you mind ‘revealing’ the cause of your cognitive problems?  Mine have >been >permanent and non-progressive for a period of 20 years, as determined by >neuropsych testing twenty years ago and again recently (along with consistent >brain MRIs and SPECTscans. >We think mine came about from exposure to neurotoxins in a sick building. >When >I started reading here I found that my symptoms were identical to many of >those >with sleep disorders.

Norm, I don’t mind sharing where my cognitive problems came from at all.  They are actually from a combination of things, in no particular order as they sort of overlap.   I was attacked by a llama about 14 years ago and sustained a closed head injury, but because I had so many other injuries that were more evident, and because I saw stars but did not lose consciousness, the head injury was blown off and went untreated even though I complained of severe headaches, confusion, dizziness, loss of motor skills, loss of logic/reasoning, etc.   About 2 yrs later I was diagnosed with Sarcoidosis, an auto-immune disease that forms granulomas and can attack any organ.  Mine is systemic and is in most of the major organs, including the brain, as shown in MRI.  The lesions cause brain swelling and loss of cognitive function. I believe I also worked in a sick building for many years..it was an old building with water that would pool underneath, the carpeting was replaced several times while I worked there, and it was chemically treated for pests many times over my 20 yrs of employment.  It couldn’t have been a very healthy environment. I have been through neuro-psych testing as well as cognitive therapy.  The cognitive therapist was astounded at all I had taught myself as coping mechanisms and was only able to help me minimally.   My short term memory is about nil, and I have huge holes in my long term.  My sister tells me we went to Reno and stayed at the Silver Legacy for 4 days.  I have absolutely no recall of this.  However, I recently cleaned out a bag to loan to someone, and sure enough, I found a receipt for the hotel…so I guess we did stay there, lol.   Regards, Sandy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -OhMrsJohnson1 wrote: > >Would you mind ‘revealing’ the cause of your cognitive problems?  Mine have > >been > >permanent and non-progressive for a period of 20 years, as determined by > >neuropsych testing twenty years ago and again recently (along with consistent > >brain MRIs and SPECTscans. > >We think mine came about from exposure to neurotoxins in a sick building. > >When > >I started reading here I found that my symptoms were identical to many of > >those > >with sleep disorders. > Norm, I don’t mind sharing where my cognitive problems came from at all.  They > are actually from a combination of things, in no particular order as they sort > of overlap. > I was attacked by a llama about 14 years ago and sustained a closed head > injury, but because I had so many other injuries that were more evident, and > because I saw stars but did not lose consciousness, the head injury was blown > off and went untreated even though I complained of severe headaches, confusion, > dizziness, loss of motor skills, loss of logic/reasoning, etc.

Many years ago (15-20 years), pre-internet, there was a traumatic brain injury (TBI) support group.  I had talked a good deal about my copgnition problems to a close friend.  She later had a brain tumour removed and was directed to the TBI group.  She told me she thought it would be of more value to me from what I had told her.  I spent a lot of time there. The biggest complaint from those with TBI is that after they had physical healing and the scars became less obvious, everyone, including friends and relatives, thought everything should be OK. Yours and mine are permanent.  Fortunately for many who come here with cognitive deficits and OSA, they have a fighting chance to recover. > About 2 yrs later I was diagnosed with Sarcoidosis, an auto-immune disease that > forms granulomas and can attack any organ.  Mine is systemic and is in most of > the major organs, including the brain, as shown in MRI.  The lesions cause > brain swelling and loss of cognitive function.

Really bad news. > I believe I also worked in a sick building for many years..it was an old > building with water that would pool underneath, the carpeting was replaced > several times while I worked there, and it was chemically treated for pests > many times over my 20 yrs of employment.  It couldn’t have been a very healthy > environment.

I have videotaped a number of news programs related to the subject of permanent neurological damage from sick buildings, even just new carpets in an old building. > I have been through neuro-psych testing as well as cognitive therapy.  The > cognitive therapist was astounded at all I had taught myself as coping > mechanisms and was only able to help me minimally.

I was prescribed neurobehavior management by my neuropsychiatrist/psychopharmacologist.  It was administered by a PhD neuropsychologist.  She was of immense help in developing coping strategies. I read the first few chapters of Feeling Good, a book dealing with cognitive therapy.  Helped me immensely. > My short term memory is about nil, and I have huge holes in my long term.  My > sister tells me we went to Reno and stayed at the Silver Legacy for 4 days.  I > have absolutely no recall of this.  However, I recently cleaned out a bag to > loan to someone, and sure enough, I found a receipt for the hotel…so I guess > we did stay there, lol. > Regards, > Sandy

Thanks for sharing.

Response:

>The biggest complaint from those with TBI is that after they had physical >healing and the scars became less obvious, everyone, including friends and >relatives, thought everything should be OK.

Exactly…once my other injuries from the llama attack healed, everyone considered me ‘all better’..which as you well know wasn’t the case.  No one knew how I struggled just to get the basic things done at home, let alone at work.  When I returned to work, I found myself putting in 16 hr days at first to compensate for my shortcomings.  In my position, I could not allow it to be known how incapable I was, so I did everything I could to cover..and was very successful at doing so.  I was finally given another admin asst which helped immensely, and as time went by, my mental capabilities did increase some.Luckily, the Sarcoid did not begin affecting my brain until about 6 years ago (that we know for sure).   >Yours and mine are permanent.  Fortunately for many who come here with >cognitive >deficits and OSA, they have a fighting chance to recover.

Sorry yours is permanent too…that bites..but hey, what can we do but adapt as best we can..and it sounds like we are both doing ok at that. >I was prescribed neurobehavior management by my >neuropsychiatrist/psychopharmacologist.  It was administered by a PhD >neuropsychologist.  She was of immense help in developing coping strategies.

I went through about 6 weeks of cognitive therapy, but since I had been working so hard to hide my losses for so long by the time I got help, I had already taught myself a good deal of what they wanted to teach me..and more.    I see a wonderful counselor every 2 weeks, she is great at helping me problem solve when I hit a challenge.    I’ve got coping skills and strategies, but even so, some days I just plain hit a brick wall.  I have days that I cannot figure out simple things like how to get dressed…the sequence eludes me..do the shoes or socks go on first..oh wait, the jeans won’t go over the shoes..aah, good, finished..oh wait..there are my undies still laying on the bed..gotta start over!   Regards, Sandy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -OhMrsJohnson1 wrote: > >The biggest complaint from those with TBI is that after they had physical > >healing and the scars became less obvious, everyone, including friends and > >relatives, thought everything should be OK. > Exactly…once my other injuries from the llama attack healed, everyone > considered me ‘all better’..which as you well know wasn’t the case.  No one > knew how I struggled just to get the basic things done at home, let alone at > work.  When I returned to work, I found myself putting in 16 hr days at first > to compensate for my shortcomings.  In my position, I could not allow it to be > known how incapable I was, so I did everything I could to cover..and was very > successful at doing so.  I was finally given another admin asst which helped > immensely, and as time went by, my mental capabilities did increase > some.Luckily, the Sarcoid did not begin affecting my brain until about 6 years > ago (that we know for sure). > >Yours and mine are permanent.  Fortunately for many who come here with > >cognitive > >deficits and OSA, they have a fighting chance to recover. > Sorry yours is permanent too…that bites..but hey, what can we do but adapt as > best we can..and it sounds like we are both doing ok at that. > >I was prescribed neurobehavior management by my > >neuropsychiatrist/psychopharmacologist.  It was administered by a PhD > >neuropsychologist.  She was of immense help in developing coping strategies. > I went through about 6 weeks of cognitive therapy, but since I had been working > so hard to hide my losses for so long by the time I got help, I had already > taught myself a good deal of what they wanted to teach me..and more.    I see a > wonderful counselor every 2 weeks, she is great at helping me problem solve > when I hit a challenge.    I’ve got coping skills and strategies, but even so, > some days I just plain hit a brick wall.  I have days that I cannot figure out > simple things like how to get dressed…the sequence eludes me..do the shoes or > socks go on first..oh wait, the jeans won’t go over the shoes..aah, good, > finished..oh wait..there are my undies still laying on the bed..gotta start > over! > Regards, > Sandy

Yup.  Exactly.  We could play "Can You Top This", but I’d just rather move on. And, from what I know of you, at this point, I think you would also.

Response:

>Yup.  Exactly.  We could play "Can You Top This", but I’d just rather move >on. >And, from what I know of you, at this point, I think you would also

Definitely…besides…that game is just way too taxing!   Regards, Sandy in Seattle

Response:

OhMrsJohnson1 wrote: > Exactly…once my other injuries from the llama attack healed, everyone > considered me ‘all better’..which as you well know wasn’t the case.  No

Sandy…… what a sequence of terrible events.  I’ve never thought llamas were  aggressive.  I’ve never seen one but thought they were the darlings of South American mountain climbers and lonely gauchos. <g> Where did you run into the psycho one? Regards Lee in Toronto ———–== Posted via Newsfeed.Com – Uncensored Usenet News ==———-    http://www.newsfeed.com       The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–= Over 100,000 Newsgroups – Unlimited Fast Downloads – 19 Servers =—–

Response:

>  I’ve never thought >llamas were  aggressive.  I’ve never seen one but thought they were the >darlings of South American mountain climbers and lonely gauchos. <g> >Where did you run into the psycho one?

Unfortunately, psycho llama was mine!  Llamas raised in herds compete with each other for superiority and not with humans.  I had bought an old farmhouse on a couple acres and it came with a llama and a sheep, both very sociable.  The sheep had been raised by school children and thought he was a dog, lol.  It was very peaceful, just the livestock and my dogs and cats and I. At first the llama was fine, but the more time I spent with him, the pushier he got.  then one day I was going to pen him up so some friends kids could play in the stream, and he decided to prove to me that he was top llama over me….well, he most definitely won!  He beat the crap out of me in front of 15 witnesses, none of whom could believe what they were watching… so they stood rooted right where they were instead of calling 911 or trying to help me by stopping him (I’m not sure they could have).   Anyway, yes they make wonderful pack animals, and can be very docile for that purpose…and are most often kept in at least pairs. Regards, Sandy in Seattle

Response:

So he gave me speed.

Question:

>From: margwilliam…@hotmail.com  (Marg Williamson) >My husband and I use a company called Pharmacy Brokers International >You can find them at http://shop.pharmacybrokers.com

Are they using different math or am I just not getting something?  In checking out the price of Allegra, I see they send a quantity of 72 and state that it’s a 90 day supply.  A 90 day supply for me would be 180.  I wonder where they came up with an odd quantity of 72.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Don Brady <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote in message <news:4p136vcl5r64edmsg53aqb1rj2qi272971@4ax.com>… > On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 03:35:56 GMT, sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: > >Ok I’ve done that before.. can’t do that with flonase now though.. > >glaxo cut off all the Canadian pharmacies that sell to Americans.  I > >hope the other big drug companies do not do the same. > >I had a real bad experience with RXnorth.com though.  I paid $145.00 > >for one prescription including $10.00 for insurance.  My package never > >came, rxnorth.com told me to wait a month so I did.  After one month > >it still had not come (I bought the medicines locally for twice as > >much) and rxnorth.com refused to file for insurance.  They said they > >had no proof that I had not received the drugs.  The package was last > >scanned at my local post office but never made it to my mail box. > >Rxnorth.com said that it made it to my local post office (in another > >zip code) was proof enough that it came and they refused to file for > >insurance..  The transaction was a total loss for me. > If you charged on a credit card, you can charge in back to them, if you act > fast enough.

My husband and I use a company called Pharmacy Brokers International to get our prescription medications from.  They have been very reliable and are always prompt and courteous to deal with.  They also state on their site that they are not affected by the glaxo decision, so that may help you.  I have found them to be very helpful and even follow-up with you personally to make sure you got your package and everything is to your satisfaction.  Definately top marks for customer service. You can find them at http://shop.pharmacybrokers.com or call them at 1-866-438-7444. Best Regards, Marg Williamson

Response:

On Sat, 08 Mar 2003 01:48:49 GMT, sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: >The nurse at urget care said that it’s not the best thing to take antihystamines when you have a >sinus infetion so I stopped taking them.

Antihistamines do dry out your sinuses.  This is not good really for most/many people with sinusitis.  It can make things worse.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I tend to have manic reactions to drugs so I have to be >extra careful. >I’m on my third day of prenisone right now and I feel horrible.. sigh.. only one more day to go >though.

Response:

Pleudoephedrine – Sudafed – has been around since before the 60’s. If there were a rebound, surely we would have seen it by now. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

There was a while when I was taking a 12-Hour Claritin-D (120mg slow release pseudoephedrine plus Claritin) morning AND night. Or sometimes I would just take it at night. It was a light sleep, but sometimes I would wake up feeling great. Of course I got to where I depended on pseudoephedrine to do anything. The ups and downs were bad. And I dropped 15 pounds. What I really wonder is if it is bad for you long term.  Rhinitis medicamendosa is caused by topical decongestants like Afrin, but I wonder if anyone has ever funded a study to show ill effects of long-term pseudoephedrine use on the nasal mucosa/turbinates. It seems that constant vasoconstriction cannot be good for tissue. The big pharmaceutical companies aren’t going to slap a warning on anything, though. <nos…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:ba6edbf6a25ad8d9bcc22cb80a6943b4@news.teranews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have sleep apea that I think is caused by sinus disease.  A cat > scan has > proven in the past that I have sinus disease. > I asked my doctor ENT if there was anything he could do to help me so > I could > sleep tonight. > So he gave me speed. > pseudoephedrine to be exact.. > In the waiting room I noticed Allegra pens and other signs that the > Allegra drug > rep had been by. > I also noticed an Astra Zenca Calander. > I commented to my boyfriend "you watch I’m going to leave this office > with a > prescription for allegra even though I don’t have allergies" > The doctor asked me three times if I had allergies and I said no each > time.. so > he gave me many samples of the allergy drug allegra..  Allegra is > pseudoephedrine and is contra indicated as a treatment for insomnia.

Response:

I have osteoarthritis and was on Vioxx at one time.  It is very expensive, but was wonderful for the pain. However, my blood pressure was vbery high; was on 6 medications for it and it was still high.  Stopped Vioxx and rheumy put me on pain medication and BP began to drop.  Now on just two RX’s and BP is good. Gwen

Response:

Most persons with polyps are sensitive to aspirin and all aspirin products such as Motrin, Aleve, etc. Taking these can enlarge the polyps. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

I know exactly how you feel.  I know the 120 mg slow release Claritin-D or Allegra-D is ’speedy’, but there was actually a point when I was taking one at night and actually sleeping better. It was a light sleep, but I actually breathed. That was before my sinus surgery.  Later I became convinced that my addiction to pseudoephedrine could actually be bad for my nose and sinuses. After all, topical decongestants like Afrin are strongly restricted from regular use. But oral decongestants like pseudoephedrine are supposedly fine for long-term use–do they dry out the mucosa? I certainly used to experience rebound with those 120 mg tablets. I think I suffer from dryness of the mucosa: whatever mucous is there (very little) is sticky.  I just started on Celebrex anti-inflammatory for an injury, and I’m thinking it might take down sinus/turbinate swelling. Antibiotics have been absolutely pointless for me. I don’t have ordinary infection–just inflammation. And it’s the same, week after week (for about the past 3 years). Maybe it’s thyroid?? Blood test normal. Maybe it’s Rheumatoid something …? Nothing. Oh well.!! GOOD LUCK! <nos…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:ba6edbf6a25ad8d9bcc22cb80a6943b4@news.teranews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have sleep apea that I think is caused by sinus disease.  A cat > scan has > proven in the past that I have sinus disease. > I asked my doctor ENT if there was anything he could do to help me so > I could > sleep tonight. > So he gave me speed. > pseudoephedrine to be exact.. > In the waiting room I noticed Allegra pens and other signs that the > Allegra drug > rep had been by. > I also noticed an Astra Zenca Calander. > I commented to my boyfriend "you watch I’m going to leave this office > with a > prescription for allegra even though I don’t have allergies" > The doctor asked me three times if I had allergies and I said no each > time.. so > he gave me many samples of the allergy drug allegra..  Allegra is > pseudoephedrine and is contra indicated as a treatment for insomnia.

Response:

Tea with lemon and chicken soup are more effective for thinning the mucus. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 03:35:56 GMT, sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: >Ok I’ve done that before.. can’t do that with flonase now though.. >glaxo cut off all the Canadian pharmacies that sell to Americans.  I >hope the other big drug companies do not do the same. >I had a real bad experience with RXnorth.com though.  I paid $145.00 >for one prescription including $10.00 for insurance.  My package never >came, rxnorth.com told me to wait a month so I did.  After one month >it still had not come (I bought the medicines locally for twice as >much) and rxnorth.com refused to file for insurance.  They said they >had no proof that I had not received the drugs.  The package was last >scanned at my local post office but never made it to my mail box. >Rxnorth.com said that it made it to my local post office (in another >zip code) was proof enough that it came and they refused to file for >insurance..  The transaction was a total loss for me.

If you charged on a credit card, you can charge in back to them, if you act fast enough.

Response:

On Sun, 02 Mar 2003 03:05:56 GMT, sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: >My new ENT gave me two bottles of flonase and an appointment for a CT >scan.  I hope I can get him to prescribe nasaquart instead because the >flonase stings and I am worried about the preservative in it and I >don’t want to give any more money to Glaxo. >I wonder if there is a generic steroid nasal spray on the market?  I >have no prescription drug coverage.

No but you can buy them a lot cheaper from the Canadian Internet pharmacies.

Response:

>I wonder if there is a generic steroid nasal spray on the market?  I >have no prescription drug coverage.

Call the manufacturer of the drug(s) you need and tell the operator you’d like to speak to someone about the patient assistance program.  Nearly all pharmaceutical companies have such a department now.  They’ll send you a form to fill out, with a portion to be filled out by your doc or pharmacist and you’ll get three months supply at either a very low cost or no cost.  You can do this every three months, I’m told.   Go here to check it out http://www.phrma.org/pap/    but be aware that the information is not up to date.  There are drugs not listed here that are part of the program, so you really have to call the manufacturer to get the most up to date scoop.

Response:

The first thing I think of when hearing thick gunk is whether there is sufficient hydration. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: >No I have not had my sleep study yet, I’m on the waiting list for a >sleep study at my local hospital.  I have read that some severe cases >of polyps do present as sleep apnea so I am not yet ready to give up >home and assume I will have to depend on a machine. Also all the post >nasal discharge has made my throat irritated and swollen and is >contributing to my sleep problems.  I have to wake up to swallow all >the gunk every few minutes. >My SO has sleep apnea and I have done a fair amount of research on the >subject.

Sue M.

Response:

My ENT seems to think that I can control the polyps somewhat with the nasal steroid spray.  The latest he likes to use is the Rhinocort AQ.  I have had surgery 8 years ago to remove some polypoid material, so I don’t know if that makes it more efficient.  It is supposed to cut down on irritation/inflammation. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: >I"ve been drinking lots of water lately and cut back on the coffee.. >it actually not that thick at this point.. just constant and >irritating at night. >On 02 Mar 2003 00:35:25 GMT, in alt.support.sinusitis >suemil…@aol.comnospam (Sue milham) wrote: >>The first thing I think of when hearing thick gunk is whether there is >>sufficient hydration. >>sleepl…@nospam.org wrote: >>>No I have not had my sleep study yet, I’m on the waiting list for a >>>sleep study at my local hospital.  I have read that some severe cases >>>of polyps do present as sleep apnea so I am not yet ready to give up >>>home and assume I will have to depend on a machine. Also all the post >>>nasal discharge has made my throat irritated and swollen and is >>>contributing to my sleep problems.  I have to wake up to swallow all >>>the gunk every few minutes. >>>My SO has sleep apnea and I have done a fair amount of research on the >>>subject.

Sue M.

Response:

On Thr, 27 Feb 2003 04:12:50 GMT, nos…@nospam.com wrote: >Yes I believe the congestion in my nose is waking me up.  I don’t know >why but I try to breath through my nose when I am asleep.  I’ve never >really been able to breath through my nose.

If it is just nasal congestion, a steroid spray (e.g. Nasonex or Flonase) has a good chance of opening it up if used every day.  

Response:

Allegra itself is not pseudoephedrine. there is a product called Allegra D that has this in it. Most persons take this at night without difficulty. Murray Grossan, M.D. http://www.ent-consult.com http://www.TinnitusRelief.net http://www.emedicine.com/ent/topic516.htm

Response:

On Thr, 27 Feb 2003 19:44:45 GMT, nos…@nospam.com wrote: >http://www.nofreelunch.org

It looks like an excellent site. Are you a doctor or medical student?

Response:

On Thr, 27 Feb 2003 19:44:38 GMT, nos…@nospam.com wrote: >>If it is just nasal congestion, a steroid spray (e.g. Nasonex or Flonase) has a >>good chance of opening it up if used every day.   >I have polyps in my septum is pushed off to the side..

A nasal steroid spray would still help.

Response:

"Don Brady" <dbr…@pobox.com> wrote in message

news:5o1t5vsccfusqou0856q1qgbpajboqsbou@4ax.com… > Are you a doctor or medical student?

Dan, is it likely that someone who thinks that Allegra is pseudoephedrine, and refers to the latter as "speed", is a doctor or medical student?

Response:

<nos…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:6495624eda588f759e8692db6cd0a237@news.teranews.com… > On Thu, 27 Feb 2003 16:47:21 -0500, in alt.support.sinusitis Don Brady > I’m using one.. I hope it does the trick.. I really don’t want a sleep > apnea machine..

Although a large percentage of sleep apnea sufferers also have nasal and sinus problems, an improvement in nasal/sinus symptoms doesn’t usually "cure" the sleep apnea. Again, have you had a sleep study? There is a newsgroup that has a lot of info about sleep apnea, I think it’s alt.support.sleep-disorders. Also good web based discussion groups. (I think one is at www.sleepnet.com.) (Not sure that’s the URL though.)

Response:

Dear Nospamnospam, Allegra is not pseudoephedrine. It is an antihistamine. (Although, as Don mentions, Allegra-D has pseudoephedrine added to the antihistamine.) You don’t need your doctor to prescribe you pseudoephedrine. It is available over the counter in any drug store. (Sudafed, etc.) It is an effective decongestant, and perhaps could help your congestion more than the Allegra. However, it’s true that with some people (not everyone) it could make sleeping more difficult. (Antihistamines do the opposite–make you sleepier, although the new ones like Allegra much less so than the old ones like diphenhydramine (Benadryl). (That’s also the main ingredient in many OTC sleep medicines.) The word "speed" is usually used for amphetamines, which are controlled substances. Obviously the FDA considers Sudafed much safer than methamphetamine, since the former is available over the counter, and the latter is highly controlled. Not everyone can take PSE though–if one has high blood pressure, urinary problems, etc., better to avoid it. Every doctor’s office I’ve been to is filled with free things they get from the drug reps, with the drug’s name on them. You will see Allegra pens in many doctor’s offices, calendars from drug companies, etc., etc., etc. I also don’t like that, but it doesn’t mean that the Allegra rep was just there. He or she was probably there at some time, but it could have been quite a while before your doctor visit. You say that you "don’t have allergies". How do you know that? Most people with chronic sinusitis also have allergies, that inflame the nose and sinuses, and make them more prone to infection. Even if an allergy test didn’t show allergies, you could have allergies to substances that weren’t on the test. The doc probably had a lot of extra Allegra samples to get rid of, and thought you might as well try it. If it is not the -D version, there is no decongestant in it, and it is not likely to  keep you awake. I’d suggest trying them. Not likely to have any harmful effect. Have you been diagnosed as having sleep apnea? Did you have a sleep study? Are you using a CPAP machine? <nos…@nospam.com> wrote in message

news:ba6edbf6a25ad8d9bcc22cb80a6943b4@news.teranews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have sleep apea that I think is caused by sinus disease.  A cat > scan has > proven in the past that I have sinus disease. > I asked my doctor ENT if there was anything he could do to help me so > I could > sleep tonight. > So he gave me speed. > pseudoephedrine to be exact.. > In the waiting room I noticed Allegra pens and other signs that the > Allegra drug > rep had been by. > I also noticed an Astra Zenca Calander. > I commented to my boyfriend "you watch I’m going to leave this office > with a > prescription for allegra even though I don’t have allergies" > The doctor asked me three times if I had allergies and I said no each > time.. so > he gave me many samples of the allergy drug allegra..  Allegra is > pseudoephedrine and is contra indicated as a treatment for insomnia.

Response:

On Wed, 26 Feb 2003 22:52:59 GMT, nos…@nospam.com wrote: > I have sleep apea that I think is caused by sinus disease.  A cat >scan has proven in the past that I have sinus disease.       >I asked my doctor ENT if there was anything he could do to help me so >I could sleep tonight. >So he gave me speed. >pseudoephedrine to be exact.. >In the waiting room I noticed Allegra pens and other signs that the >Allegra drug rep had been by. >I also noticed an Astra Zenca Calander. >I commented to my boyfriend "you watch I’m going to leave this office >with a >prescription for allegra even though I don’t have allergies"

Allegra-D has pseudoephedrine but regular Allegra does not. See http://www.allegra.com . But by all means switch to a different doctor.  Someone at a major University medical should be a good choice,

Response:

It makes it all so easy when you’ve just had the drug rep come by.  No thinking necessary. I wouldn’t think that sinusitis is sleep apnea.  I guess he was thinking the congestion that keeps you from breathing wakes you up? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nos…@nospam.com wrote: > I have sleep apea that I think is caused by sinus disease.  A cat >scan has >proven in the past that I have sinus disease.       >I asked my doctor ENT if there was anything he could do to help me so >I could >sleep tonight. >So he gave me speed. >pseudoephedrine to be exact.. >In the waiting room I noticed Allegra pens and other signs that the >Allegra drug >rep had been by. >I also noticed an Astra Zenca Calander. >I commented to my boyfriend "you watch I’m going to leave this office >with a >prescription for allegra even though I don’t have allergies" >The doctor asked me three times if I had allergies and I said no each >time.. so >he gave me many samples of the allergy drug allegra..  Allegra is >pseudoephedrine and is contra indicated as a treatment for insomnia.

Sue M.

Response:

W/o meds?

Question:

Jose Martinez wrote: > On Mon, 4 Nov 2002 00:26:50 -0000, "Zorg" > <z…@furryworm.freeserve.co.uk> wrote: >>Never heard of folk etymology? > The U.S. is a gold mine of folk etymology — all those nasty Europeans > invading had to make sense of Native American words. > Overall, though, my favorite is "sparrowgrass" from "sparagus", itself > from "asparagus".  ("Kickshaw" from the French "quelque chose" is good > too.) > JM

I once read that ‘avocado’ derived from an Aztec word for scrotum. How often have I mentioned that at dinner parties, LOL. Zorg

Response:

Ann, unless I see an "M.D." credential next to your name, please stop trying to insult my intelligence when I offer what knowledge I offer on this ng. Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Like with OCD, CBT is helpful in all degrees of illness, and medication >may be required in the ’severe’ range of both OCD and depression. Like >with OCD, meds can provide relief from symptoms but they are not a cure. >What a person does in that period of relief can greatly affect the >outcome of their OCD and/or depression. > > CBT works much better on OCD, >As opposed to CBT working on depression? I’m unaware of any research >that has even studied that. What I am aware of, from what I have read, >is that CBT was developed as a treatment for depresssion over 30 years >ago, it has just recently been used to treat OCD (and other anxiety >disorders). CBT for depression has been found to be just as effective as >medication and more effective in preventing relapses. > > but of course all treatments > > should be tried until the desired results are reached. >Indeed.

Response:

"Zorg" <z…@furryworm.freeserve.co.uk> wrote in message

news:aq55sr$fg8$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk… > I once read that ‘avocado’ derived from an Aztec word for scrotum. How > often have I mentioned that at dinner parties, LOL.

Would have been a short dinner party for me Zorg. Lain – lain is like a brilliant drunk blathering on about this and that but never really tieing everything they say into an intelligible thought – http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=Lain&type=1

Response:

INaFog5716 wrote:

 > Ann, unless I see an "M.D." credential next to your name, please stop  > trying to insult my intelligence when I offer what knowledge I offer  > on this ng. Mary, unless you’ve actually tried any sort of therapy besides taking meds, please stop trying to discount the importance of CBT as being only useful in mild/moderate cases. – ARQ, the ancestral sheep genotype, M.D.

Response:

INaFog5716 wrote:

 > Yes I’m sure it may help minor depression, but not major which is  > quite debililating. Like with OCD, CBT is helpful in all degrees of illness, and medication may be required in the ’severe’ range of both OCD and depression. Like with OCD, meds can provide relief from symptoms but they are not a cure. What a person does in that period of relief can greatly affect the outcome of their OCD and/or depression.  > CBT works much better on OCD, As opposed to CBT working on depression? I’m unaware of any research that has even studied that. What I am aware of, from what I have read, is that CBT was developed as a treatment for depresssion over 30 years ago, it has just recently been used to treat OCD (and other anxiety disorders). CBT for depression has been found to be just as effective as medication and more effective in preventing relapses.  > but of course all treatments  > should be tried until the desired results are reached. Indeed.

Response:

I just wanna hear some damn success stories about people making it without meds. Thanks. -Ryan H.

Response:

Ryan H. wrote:

 > I just wanna hear some damn success stories about people making it  > without meds. I know two people. First, a woman who had moderate OCD symptoms (ie, they interferred greatly on her life but she wasn’t home-bound or anything),  and went through CBT without meds. She alive and well and feels ‘much better’. Second, was a man with mild-moderate OCD with a story much like the woman above. I don’t think you’ll hear too many ’success stories about people making it without meds’ though, not because the stories do not exist (cos they do) but the vaste majority of people that seek help for their OCD are almost automatically prescribed meds whether they’ve had a go at CBT medfree or not. Many, many, people that seek help for their OCD are not even given the option of CBT. For many people the choice in getter well seems to be take meds or suffer, so the idea of ‘making it’ medfree doesn’t might not seem to be an option for some people. Additionally, many people that seek help for their OCD are really suffering, ie, it has gotten so bad, they can’t pretend they don’t have a problem anymore, and at that point, meds can be appropriate. Another point is, I’m guessing, that most people that have ‘made it’ are not going to be here at alt.support.ocd – an ng for something that doesn’t bother them much, if at all, anymore. This is all very general, but it might explain why you might not get many of the stories you’re after. I know there are a few stories in books about OCD. I specifically remember one in ‘Stop Obsessing’ (Foa and Wilson) about a woman Gustina (I think) with bad OCD who got better without meds, by going to OCD support groups and her own self-help efforts.

Response:

CBT is very important for people w/OCD….but I think meds may be a necessity for the people that have the accompanying depression (that may have physical symptoms like stomach disorders (nausea/IBS), heart palpitations, sleep disorders, GAD, ADD).   Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Ryan H. wrote: > > I just wanna hear some damn success stories about people making it > > without meds. >I know two people. First, a woman who had moderate OCD symptoms (ie, >they interferred greatly on her life but she wasn’t home-bound or >anything),  and went through CBT without meds. She alive and well and >feels ‘much better’. Second, was a man with mild-moderate OCD with a >story much like the woman above. >I don’t think you’ll hear too many ’success stories about people making >it without meds’ though, not because the stories do not exist (cos they >do) but the vaste majority of people that seek help for their OCD are >almost automatically prescribed meds whether they’ve had a go at CBT >medfree or not. Many, many, people that seek help for their OCD are not >even given the option of CBT. For many people the choice in getter well >seems to be take meds or suffer, so the idea of ‘making it’ medfree >doesn’t might not seem to be an option for some people. >Additionally, many people that seek help for their OCD are really >suffering, ie, it has gotten so bad, they can’t pretend they don’t have >a problem anymore, and at that point, meds can be appropriate. >Another point is, I’m guessing, that most people that have ‘made it’ are >not going to be here at alt.support.ocd – an ng for something that >doesn’t bother them much, if at all, anymore. >This is all very general, but it might explain why you might not get >many of the stories you’re after. >I know there are a few stories in books about OCD. I specifically >remember one in ‘Stop Obsessing’ (Foa and Wilson) about a woman Gustina >(I think) with bad OCD who got better without meds, by going to OCD >support groups and her own self-help efforts.

Response:

I have relatively mild OCD of the pure obsessional type and manage it without meds.  I’ve had some bad experiences with medication including  a suicide attempt brought on by a reaction to the meds.  I simply don’t handle medication well so I do without it.  I’ve had a lot of therapy over the years and now do my own version of CBT as well as meditate and read a lot of self-help and inspirational books. Nancy "Ryan H." <bane…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:S2Zw9.212588$md1.48569@sccrnsc03… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I just wanna hear some damn success stories about people making it without > meds. > Thanks. > -Ryan H.

Response:

On 11/3/02 7:58 AM, INaFog5716 bravely spewed forth the following diatribe: > CBT is very important for people w/OCD….but I think meds may be a necessity > for the people that have the accompanying depression (that may have physical > symptoms like stomach disorders (nausea/IBS), heart palpitations, sleep > disorders, GAD, ADD).   > Mary

Mary, I didn’t realize how true this was until I tried to get off of meds and saw all the other things (anxiety, depression) that the meds were helping. (note: please use newsgroup ettiquete and reply at bottom of posts)

Response:

INaFog5716 wrote:

 > CBT is very important for people w/OCD….but I think meds may be a  > necessity for the people that have the accompanying depression CBT is also very important for people with depression, whether they have OCD or not. CBT is a treatment for depression as well as OCD.

Response:

HEH. NETIQUETTE! SHMETIQUETTE! HMM, HOW MANY OF ‘DA RULZ’ CAN I BREAK IN ONE POST? THIS IS A TEST! TESTING, TESTING, 1 2 3 IT’S ETIQUETTE,,,NOT ETTIQUETE!!!!!!!!!! LOSE TEN POUNDS IN ONE DAY!!!! GUARANTEED!!!!!! JUST SEND ME TEN POUNDS, VISA AND MASTERCARD ACCEPTED, AND YOU CAN BE BE RID OF THOSE PESKY TEN POUNDS FOREVER!!!! Hey, me too!! HELLO MEN OUT THERE!!! I’M A HOT BRUNETTE AND LOOKING FOR HOT SEX!! I’M REALLY WILD AND KINKY AND I CAN KISS, RUB, SQUEEZE, PULL, LICK, STROKE, SUCK, SHAKE AND MORE! IN ALL THE WAYS THAT WILL MAKE YOU MOAN FOR MORE! (batteries not included, some assembly required) HEY EVERYBODY!! WHAT’S OCD? Oh! Nearly forgot this –> Please E-Mail, I don’t read this group. honky wrote:

  > (note: please use newsgroup ettiquete and reply at bottom of posts) — and now for the sig file — Post by Ann R Quay. ARQ is the ancestral sheep genotype.        -_     >(. )      |  (     /)      |   ___/ )      (   —– )  >@)_//   >@)_//  >@)_//  >@)_//       _______/    (__)     (__)    (__)    (__)     ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Profanity: The linguistic crutch of inarticulate bastards. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. Interesting trivia –> In Shakespeare’s time, mattresses were secured on bed frames by ropes. When you pulled on the ropes the mattress tightened, making the bed firmer to sleep on. That’s where the phrase ‘goodnight, sleep tight’ came from.          o o o o o o o . . .   ______________________________        o      _____           ||                            |      .][__n_n_|DD[  ====_____  |   my train of thought      |     >(________|__|_[_________]_|____________________________|     _/oo OOOOO oo`  ooo   ooo  ’o!o!o                  o!o!o` -+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ Reality: A crutch for people who can’t face drugs. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. Fairy tales: Horror stories for children to get them used to reality. .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. More interesting trivia –>  In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints and quarts. So in old England, when customers got unruly, the bartender would yell at them to mind their own pints and quarts and settle down. It’s where we get the phrase "mind your P’s and Q’s." .:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:._.:*~*:. A priest, a rabbi, and a minister walk into a bar. The bartender says, ‘What? Is this some kind of joke?’      __      __     ( _    /_ )       _  /_ /       _/_ /_ _       |_____/_/ /|       (  (_)__)J-)       (  /`.,   /        /  ;   / _____| === |dwb_______________________________________________________

Response:

>CBT is also very important for people with depression, whether they have >OCD or not. CBT is a treatment for depression as well as OCD.

Yes I’m sure it may help minor depression, but not major which is quite debililating.  CBT works much better on OCD, but of course all treatments should be tried until the desired results are reached. Mary

Response:

"Ann R Quay" <ann.r.q…@virgin.net> wrote in message news:3DC57D6F.6010701@virgin.net… > More interesting trivia –>  In English pubs, ale is ordered by pints > and quarts. So in old England, when customers got unruly, the bartender > would yell at them to mind their own pints and quarts and settle down. > It’s where we get the phrase "mind your P’s and Q’s."

Never heard of folk etymology? Zorg

Response:

"Ryan H." <bane…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:S2Zw9.212588$md1.48569@sccrnsc03… > I just wanna hear some damn success stories about people making it without > meds.

I don’t know if you can call it a success story, but I do not take meds for my obsessions. ARQ has pointed out that this could be due to me inadvertently not giving in to compulsions (such as avaoidence), thus my obsessions never grew to a level where I would need to take meds to keep on going. Anyway, just a thought. — Lain – lain is like a brilliant drunk blathering on about this and that but never really tieing everything they say into an intelligible thought – http://www.googlism.com/index.htm?ism=Lain&type=1

Response:

WASHINGTON SNIPER

Question:

epidemiologic studies suggest that affluence is correlated with better health (at least in OUR day and age vs pre-20the c.). money is associated with less smoking, less fat intake, more/fresher vegetables and fruits, more exercise, cleaner living environment. conversely, poverty is associated with the opposite, including alcohol consumption other than wine (which has positive correlations with health). breast cancer has not been clearly associated with any lifestyle factors, though fat and lack of exercise have some links, it appears, though non-definitive. Mark replied: << how do you account for the increased incidence of breast cancer on Long Island? I have a *hunch* that it is various aspects of lifestyle more than anything else. I would be curious to know of other clusters of BC, and whether those areas have a similar affluence. <BR<BR                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

Mark, you mention multiple chemical sensitivies (MCS).  MCS is NOT psychosomatic. that notion is antique, by any clinician with knowledge based on the last 20 years of immunue studies.  i have MANY chemical sensititivities, and i can smell (via instant head pound) a solvent 16 floors below.

Recent (like within the pat month) epidemiological studies point out that there is a strong psychosomatic link. The few cases we have dealt with have followed the pattern of psychosomatization. However, I do not believe that all cases are purely psychosomatic. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – there is considerable research and thinking these days on imflammation factors, eg, cytokines, and their relation to a broad spectum of disorders (see abstracts below). cytokines (inflammatory factors) are gradually being regarded as central/or contributing players in many neuro (MS, Alzhemiers, ADD, depression, et al), autoimmune (allergy, skin, asthma, etc), cardio-vasculature problems (plaque rupture). and any perusal of recent research on Gulf War Sydrome reveals that cytokines likely play a role.  much of the problem with GWS is that there is difficulty with Factor Analysis, meaning, it is difficult to find consistent patterns of symtoms and complaints by those affected. but newer, more refined research into GWS is finding subtle but detectable neuro-damage, likely initiated through pathways that affected by these inflammation factors. quite simply, some individuals are genetically more prone, it seems, to have a dysregulated response.  Ann N Y Acad Sci 2001 Mar;933:185-200 Related Articles, Links Cytokines and chronic fatigue syndrome. Patarca R. Department of Medicine, University of Miami School of Medicine, Florida Chronic fatigue syndrome (CFS) patients show evidence of immune activation, as demonstrated by increased numbers of activated T lymphocytes, including cytotoxic T cells, as well as elevated levels of circulating cytokines. Nevertheless, immune cell function of CFS patients is poor, with low natural killer cell cytotoxicity (NKCC), poor lymphocyte response to mitogens in culture, and frequent immunoglobulin deficiencies, most often IgG1 and IgG3. Immune dysfunction in CFS, with predominance of so-called T-helper type 2 and proinflammatory cytokines, can be episodic and associated with either cause or effect of the physiological and psychological function derangement and/or activation of latent viruses or other pathogens. The interplay of these factors can account for the perpetuation of disease with remission/exacerbation cycles. A T-helper type 2 predominance has been seen among Gulf War syndrome patients and this feature may also be present in other related disorders, such as multiple chemical sensitivity. Therapeutic intervention aimed at induction of a more favorable cytokine expression pattern and immune status appears promising.  Adverse Drug React Toxicol Rev 1998 Mar;17(1):1-17 Related Articles, Links Gulf War syndrome–a model for the complexity of biological and environmental interaction with human health. Jamal GA.University Department of Neurology, Southern General Hospital NHS Trust, Glasgow. Since the end of the Gulf War, tens of thousands of American, Canadian and British soldiers who participated in that war have claimed to be suffering from a variety of incapacitating symptoms which are generally termed as Gulf War Syndrome (GWS). The symptoms are multiple but mainly consist of excessive tiredness, muscle and joint pain, loss of balance, sensory symptoms, neurobehavioural manifestations, diarrhoea, bladder dysfunction, sweating disturbances, and respiratory, gastrointestinal, musculoskeletal and skin manifestations. These veterans have been exposed to a variety of damaging or potentially damaging risk factors including environmental adversities, pesticides such as organophosphate chemicals, skin insect repellents, medical agents such as pyridostigmine bromide (NAPS), possible low-levels of chemical warfare agents, multiple vaccinations in combinations, depleted uranium, and other factors. A large number of basic research findings, clinical epidemiological studies, and case control studies are reviewed to try and link them together to produce a coherent picture and to demonstrate the complexity of the interaction of biological systems, environmental and genetic factors, combinations of drugs and toxins with human health. The findings of these studies so far have demonstrated that many of the previous assumptions made about the ’safety’ of certain drugs and toxic substances or vaccines must be radically reviewed. Many of the findings have far reaching implications not only in terms of explanation of what might have gone wrong during the Gulf War, but also have wider implications for many occupational groups who are exposed daily to some of these risk factors. More open-mindedness and much less prejudice are required concerning the basic biology of interactions of the above factors and their effects on cell functions and wider intelligent research is urgently required with high priority. This review highlights the importance of intelligent research for answers for a new phenomenon, and demonstrates the necessity for a combination of this approach with high quality epidemiological research. The reader will notice an emerging clear picture that the majority (if not all) of these advances have been achieved from studies funded by independent or charity organizations rather than by the responsible authorities who are supposed and are duty bound to take on this task. if that’s true, regarding recent reports, there is other research stating a direct correlation.  it is a controversial topic, for sure. further, it’s impossible to prove that a manifestation of disease, eg, skin problems, asthma, etc, are psychomatic. the cause the link may as yet be unknow, that’s not rare in medicine. how do you account for the increased incidence of breast cancer on Long Island? I have a *hunch* that it is various aspects of lifestyle more than anything else. I would be curious to know of other clusters of BC, and whether those areas have a similar affluence.  or clusters of MS in the NW?  genetic clusters do not account for these cases, in whole.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Recent research has shown that there is a direct link between *deployment* and GWS. There is evidence suggesting tyhat it is a psychosomatic disorder, much akin to MCS.                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

and further, regarding MCS, take a look at the Probs W Heat thread.  *L* what the heck is going on there?                         \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

and further in addition to, etc, chronic pain is a good analogy. not long ago, chronic pain without an apparent source was regarded as psychosomatic.   now neurologist know that chronic pain is likely a dysregulation is th pain pathway, and sensation that are painless for NT are magnified in the brains of other chronic pain sufferers. the interesting thing about this is they treat the underlying pathology with TCAs and other interventions that affect norepinephrine.  but the treatment, according to these new clinicians/researchers, is not geared to a psychiattric disordeer;  it’s geared to a neurologic dysfunction in nerve signal pathways (sort of like ADD, in a way). it took a LONG time for chronic pain sufferers to get some respect, and treatment!                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

I meant more than just wealthy lifestyles. In my neighborhood, which is rather affluent, most women do not work outside the home. Our take-out restaurants and fast food joints are jammed at dinner time, and I rarely see most people out exercising. While I am not in every house, I do see many of the women buying prepared foods, etc. As for exercise, they do go to the gyms (and fight to see who can get the parking place closest to the door!). Exercise is just a thing to do, not a lifestyle. I suspect that this plays a big role.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – epidemiologic studies suggest that affluence is correlated with better health (at least in OUR day and age vs pre-20the c.). money is associated with less smoking, less fat intake, more/fresher vegetables and fruits, more exercise, cleaner living environment. conversely, poverty is associated with the opposite, including alcohol consumption other than wine (which has positive correlations with health). breast cancer has not been clearly associated with any lifestyle factors, though fat and lack of exercise have some links, it appears, though non-definitive. Mark replied: << how do you account for the increased incidence of breast cancer on Long Island? I have a *hunch* that it is various aspects of lifestyle more than anything else. I would be curious to know of other clusters of BC, and whether those areas have a similar affluence. <BR<BR                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

if you’re referring to this one (see below), this simply rep[orts a correlation with MCS and other neuro disorders, eg, depression, cognitive dysfunction, etc.  and says they met the critieris of "somatization disorder." these kinds of studies are not looking at micro/molecular biology;  they are using old models of disease, perpetuating the problem. one needs to look not this curde measure using DSM criteria of mood disorders; one must look at the neurobiology of pathways. ADD and hoax believes were this primitive not so long ago.  now we have neuro-imaging.  is ADD psychosomatic?  one could say that it has correlation with other mood disorders, yadda, yadda, etc. J Occup Environ Med 2002 Oct;44(10):890-901<A HREF="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=D isplay&amp;dopt=pubmed_pubmed&amp;from_uid=12391767" Related Articles,</A<A HREF="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov:80/entrez/query.fcgi?db=PubMed&cmd=D isplay&amp;dopt=pubmed_pubmed&amp;from_uid=12391767"

Mark, you mention multiple chemical sensitivies (MCS).  MCS is NOT psychosomatic. that notion is antique, by any clinician with knowledge based on the last 20 years of immunue studies.  i have MANY chemical sensititivities, and i can smell (via instant head pound) a solvent 16 floors below.

Recent (like within the pat month) epidemiological studies point out that there is a strong psychosomatic link. The few cases we have dealt with have followed the pattern of psychosomatization. However, I do not believe that all cases are purely psychosomatic.

Mark, you mention multiple chemical sensitivies (MCS).  MCS is NOT psychosomatic. that notion is antique, by any clinician with knowledge based on the last 20 years of immunue studies.  i have MANY chemical sensititivities, and i can smell (via instant head pound) a solvent 16 floors below.

Recent (like within the pat month) epidemiological studies point out that there is a strong psychosomatic link. The few cases we have dealt with have followed the pattern of psychosomatization. However, I do not believe that all cases are purely psychosomatic.</A<A HREF="javascript:window.showMenu(window.Menu12391767);" Links</A Anxiety sensitivity and depression in multiple chemical sensitivities and asthma. Caccappolo-van Vliet E, Kelly-McNeil K, Natelson B, Kipen H, Fiedler N. Department of Environmental and Community Medicine, UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, 170 Frelinghuysen Road, Piscataway, NJ 08854, New York, NY 10032, USA. Patients with sensitivities to multiple chemicals report symptoms of cognitive dysfunction, respiratory distress, and mood disturbance. Lifetime and current psychiatric disorders, personality traits associated with symptom reporting, and tests of cognitive function were compared between 30 subjects with Multiple Chemical Sensitivities (MCS), 19 asthmatics, and 31 healthy controls. Relative to asthmatics and controls, more MCS subjects met criteria for current depression and somatization disorder. MCS subjects and asthmatics scored significantly higher than controls on scales of chemical odor intolerance and anxiety sensitivity, both of which were significant predictors of physical symptoms. Few differences on objective neuropsychological tests were noted. However, MCS subjects with comorbid depression performed significantly worse on a verbal memory test relative to asthmatics but not to controls. Anxiety and depression are significant contributors to the physical and cognitive symptoms of MCS subjects.                       \  - -  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

WASHINGTON SNIPER DAVID WOOD NEWHOUSE NEWS SERVICE - The alleged Washington sniper, John Allen Muhammad, may have been exposed to chemical weapons that have been linked to Gulf War Syndrome, an illness which experts said can result in unexplained bouts of intense violence. Muhammad served with the Army's 84th Engineer Company during the Persian Gulf War, military officers said. That unit, attached to the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment, helped inspect, catalog and destroy extensive stockpiles of Iraqi chemical weapons at a depot near Khamisiyah, Iraq, in March 1991 following the cease-fire March 3, Pentagon records show. According to Defense Department and CIA documents, the 84th Engineers worked handled the Iraqi chemical weapons stored in bunkers at the Tall al Lahm Storage Depot South and Tall al Lahm Ammo Storage Facility near Khamisiyah. The 84th Engineers also helped demolish Iraqi rockets filled with the deadly nerve agent Sarin during March 10-13, 1991, Pentagon documents show. The process of blowing up the rockets may have vaporized dangerous amounts of the nerve agent, Pentagon investigators later concluded. According to a final Pentagon report on the issue, "U.S. troops may have been exposed to chemical agents that are a suspected cause of Gulf War Syndrome." . . . "Once it came out that he had a military background, I said this must be a Gulf War veteran," said Dr. William E. Baumzweiger, a Los Angeles neurologist and psychiatrist who specializes in treating Gulf War Syndrome patients. "There is no doubt that a small but significant number of Gulf War veterans become homicidal" because of Gulf War Syndrome, said Baumzweiger, until recently a staff psychiatrist and neurologist at Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles. [The student who killed three instructors at the University of Arizona nursing school and Timothy McVeigh were also Gulf War veterans] IRAQ — WARNING! When trying to withdraw from many psychiatric drugs, patients can develop serious and even life-threatening emotional and physical reactions. In short, it is dangerous not only to start taking psychiatric drugs but also can be hazardous to stop taking them. Therefore, withdrawal from psychiatric drugs should be done under clinical supervision. Principles of drug withdrawal are discussed in Your Drug May Be Your Problem: How and Why to Stop Taking Psychiatric Medications. information on Prozac and Prozac-like drugs can be found in Talking Back to Prozac by Peter R. Breggin, M.D. and Ginger Ross Breggin. DSM IV is the fabrication upon which psychiatry seeks acceptance by medicine in general. Insiders know it is more a political than scientific document. To its credit it says so –Loren R. Mosher, M.D.

Response:

interesting.  is this printed in a credible source?                       \  - –  //                      oooO   (    )                       (     )     )  /                          (     (_

Response:

interesting.  is this printed in a credible source?

Of course not. The guy is a propagandist who just scoops up the usual ka ka from the net. You know how many conspiracy, anti-government , kook sites there are on the net?  Even if 1 % of the mentally ill US population sat on their duffs and wrote , that would millions. Multiply that by some smatterings outside the US and youve got a diaper load.  A recent news show speculated about a spate of wife killings by GIs, was it Army training ? Was it sexism in western society? Was it video games? Was it violence in the media? Was it avaliablity of guns? Was it capitalism ? As opposed diaper rash that is. This wart on the ass of the life , just made his nest in the support groups like all good kooks do.

Response:

interesting.  is this printed in a credible source?

The threat seemed real enough. If it could be demonstrated that Gulf War veterans are suffering from the effects of chemical or biological weapons, they might have grounds for some restitution from the United States government, or perhaps the Iraqi government. Organizations began to form in response to rising concern over the plight of Gulf War veterans. Some place the number of U.S. citizens who took part in the Gulf War at over 1 million. Official Pentagon numbers only show a total of 697,000, but they may not include non-military members. 45,000, about 6 percent of Gulf War veterans have reported an ailment they believe is linked to their service. The Pentagon found that 85 percent had ailments or diseases with known causes not linked to the Gulf War. Further Defense Department research is focusing on the 15 percent, slightly less than 1 percent of all Gulf War veterans, whose ailments could not be diagnosed. Their problems included headache and memory loss, fatigue, sleep disorders, and intestinal and respiratory ailments. These have come to be known as the symptoms of Gulf War Syndrome. What are the symptoms? Symptoms of Gulf War Illnesses (according to the American Legion) Chronic Fatigue Signs and symptoms involving skin (including skin rashes and unusual hair loss) Headache Muscle pain Neurologic signs or symptoms (nervous system disorders which could manifest themselves in numbness in one’s arm, for instance) Neuropsychological signs or symptoms (including memory loss) Signs or symptoms involving upper or lower respiratory system Sleep disturbances Gastrointestinal signs or symptoms (including recurrent diarrhea and constipation) Cardiovascular signs or symptoms Menstrual disorders Is this a real disease? Probably not. Gulf War Syndrome appears to be a myth. The New England Journal of Medicine, so far, is one of the only publications that has taken a stand against the Gulf War Syndrome advocates. In November 1996 they published results disputing the existance of Gulf War Syndrome. Gulf War Syndrome is, most likely, an unfortunate bi-product of a combination of things. Tremendous media hype surrounding the threat of chemical and biological weapons during the Gulf War. The litigious nature of our society, and The fact that the United States Government is a target for litigation with very deep pockets. If Gulf War Syndrome were actually caused by the release of chemical or biological weapons, the situation would be quite different. The less than 1% of Gulf War veterans complaining of symptoms were spread almost evenly throughout the Gulf War theater. No particular platoon or region shows any increased rate of occurance characteristic of the release of a real weapon. Even the accidental release of real chemical weapons would not spread in this manner. The symptoms are almost identical to those of several other "mysterious" diseases not associated with the Gulf War: Multiple Chemical Sensitivity (MCS), Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS) and Fibromyalgia. You can read more about these three on the CO-CURE Page which I do NOT endorse. Many have already concluded that MCS is not a real illness, it’s more of a modern version of hypocondria, but I can’t speak to the other disorders. According to the New England Journal of Medicine the rate of symptoms among Gulf War veterans is not significantly different among military who did not go to the Gulf War. This constitutes extremely strong evidence for what’s called the "nul hypothesis" in scientific studies, the hypothesis that there is no Gulf War Syndrome. I have debated with spokesmen for Gulf War Syndrome organizations on local radio programs. They operate on fear and propaganda, rather than on a sound and objective debate of the facts. The U.S. government lied about the threat to neighboring countries to get us into the war. They lied about the size and power of Iraq’s army to get money from the coalition partners. It’s easy to conclude that they also lied about the extent of the threat of chemical and biological weapons to generate public support for the war. Now we’re asked to believe in a mystery weapon so ingenious, it took years to even be discovered, and seems to strike randomly affecting only a tiny fraction of those exposed. Evidence to even believe in such a weapon would have to be extreme. Without insurmountable evidence, the only reasonable conclusion is that the disease does not exist. At best, there is no scientific evidence for a Gulf War Syndrome at present. The New England Journal of Medicine article in November of 1996 disputing claims of a Gulf War Syndrome may not be available on the internet, but InSCIght has a summary of thier findings, it’s called "Gulf War Syndrome Hits a Land Mine".

Response:

Mark, you mention multiple chemical sensitivies (MCS).  MCS is NOT psychosomatic. that notion is antique, by any clinician with knowledge based on the last 20 years of immunue studies.  i have MANY chemical sensititivities, and i can smell (via instant head pound) a solvent 16 floors below. there is considerable research and thinking these days on imflammation factors, eg, cytokines, and their relation to a broad spectum of disorders (see abstracts below). cytokines (inflammatory factors) are gradually being regarded as central/or contributing players in many neuro (MS, Alzhemiers, ADD, depression, et al), autoimmune (allergy, skin, asthma, etc), cardio-vasculature problems (plaque rupture).