Diabetes and Insomnia
Question:
Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!! Steve.
Response:
Most of my sleep problems before I was dx’ed where caused by neuropathy and frequent trips to the loo… Martian ( another Steve)
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!!
I suffered very badly from insomnia before diagnosis and for quite a while after. Once my sugars got down to a reasonable level I found it much beter. I did notice that when I couldn’t sleep that my heartrate was raised – presumably from pumping the thicker blood around. — Steve Brassett Type 2 DX May 2003 – Pills, diet & exercise
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!! Steve. Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night.
A few small points here (I also have obstructive sleep apnoea). OSA often does correlate with being overweight, so in that sense may overlap with T2 diabetes. The stereotype is of a middle aged male, overweight, who snores and has a collar size of 43cm or more. However: – OSA can occur without snoring. – It can happen to women as well. – It can happen to people who are not overweight, – to people who don’t have large necks – to people who are young, including babies. – to people who are perfectly fit such as American football players. Sometimes GPs will not suspect OSA if the patient doesn’t fit one of the stereotypes, and although it is quite common (about 5% of the population), many know little about it. It needs to be taken just as seriously as diabetes because apart from the direct impact of poor quality sleep (e.g. accidents), if not treated, there are a raft of other possible complications including hypertension, stroke, heart attack and a variety of others stemming from the reduction in blood oxygen saturation. In the UK, as in many other countries, it is illegal to drive with untreated OSA, and can carry a custodial sentence. Now the good news. Fortunately there is good and effective treatment, typically using nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) – basically a small airblower which operates via a mask or equivalent arrangement and splints the airways open during sleep. It sounds bad but for most people, actually isn’t. In the past, there have been surgical treatments involving ENT surgery, but these have a poor success rate. There are a couple of simple things that can be done as an initial patient thing – Epworth Sleepiness Test. This is a questionnaire based test which needs to be answered honestly. http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html – Ask a partner if they notice any stopping of breathing and gasping during sleep. If unsure, push for a referral to a sleep clinic. In the UK, these are generally run by pulmonology departments. There are various tests that can be done for OSA, ranging from detection of blood oxygen desaturation while asleep to polysomnograms with a whole bunch of equipment such as EEG, ECG and so on. The OP may have other sleep disorders and it may be that further referral for neurological tests could be needed, typically in a sleep lab. — .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic?? It got to the state in October where i was getting less than 2 hours sleep a night most nights a week, and the doc suggested i try some sleeping tablets called ‘Zopiclone’ which helped me sleep (once I was using the stronger ones) but I would never feel refreshed and would feel just as bad as if i hadn’t slept. So I stopped taking the tablets. Anyway, yesterday I was reading about Melatonin and it’s role in controling sleep patterns, and I noticed there are a few mentions on the web of diabetics often being deficient in melatonin. Has anyone here got any experince of taking melatonin supplements that they can share? Specifically dosage/time taken/any effect on BG control etc?? Doesn’t seem to be a lot of info around on what is a ’safe’ level to take, or if it is even safe at all!! Steve.
Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. VBH T2/UK/A1c 5.6/ 1000Met/Dx Oct-03
Response:
Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night.
The phrase "limp dishrag" comes to mind. A few small points here (I also have obstructive sleep apnoea). OSA often does correlate with being overweight, so in that sense may overlap with T2 diabetes.
The two often occur together. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The stereotype is of a middle aged male, overweight, who snores and has a collar size of 43cm or more. However: – OSA can occur without snoring. – It can happen to women as well. – It can happen to people who are not overweight, – to people who don’t have large necks – to people who are young, including babies. – to people who are perfectly fit such as American football players. Sometimes GPs will not suspect OSA if the patient doesn’t fit one of the stereotypes, and although it is quite common (about 5% of the population), many know little about it. It needs to be taken just as seriously as diabetes because apart from the direct impact of poor quality sleep (e.g. accidents), if not treated, there are a raft of other possible complications including hypertension, stroke, heart attack and a variety of others stemming from the reduction in blood oxygen saturation.
By the time I was dx’d with OSA [2 years before dx with DM], I was having aural hallucinations [having non-existent conversations with equally non-existent people, seeing things in strange colours] and having blackouts. It was picked up when hubby stayed up one night and recorded the number of times I stopped breathing [3-5 per hour] and for how long [average 17 seconds, longest 47 seconds]. In the UK, as in many other countries, it is illegal to drive with untreated OSA, and can carry a custodial sentence.
And well it should do. The idea of being behind the wheel of a car in the state I was in is, frankly, horrifying. Now the good news. Fortunately there is good and effective treatment, typically using nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) – basically a small airblower which operates via a mask or equivalent arrangement and splints the airways open during sleep. It sounds bad but for most people, actually isn’t.
It took no time at all to get used to using the machine. And getting up feeling rested is something you don’t appreciate until you haven’t done so for a while. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the past, there have been surgical treatments involving ENT surgery, but these have a poor success rate. There are a couple of simple things that can be done as an initial patient thing – Epworth Sleepiness Test. This is a questionnaire based test which needs to be answered honestly. http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html – Ask a partner if they notice any stopping of breathing and gasping during sleep. If unsure, push for a referral to a sleep clinic. In the UK, these are generally run by pulmonology departments. There are various tests that can be done for OSA, ranging from detection of blood oxygen desaturation while asleep to polysomnograms with a whole bunch of equipment such as EEG, ECG and so on. The OP may have other sleep disorders and it may be that further referral for neurological tests could be needed, typically in a sleep lab.
Agreed, since the longer it [whether OSA or something else] goes untreated, the worse the symptoms will get, and you could end up being treated for mental health problems – I was wrongly dx’d with depression before dx with OSA. Maggie — Life is a sexually transmitted disease and the mortality rate is one hundred percent. – RD Laing
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. The phrase "limp dishrag" comes to mind. A few small points here (I also have obstructive sleep apnoea). OSA often does correlate with being overweight, so in that sense may overlap with T2 diabetes. The two often occur together.
I suppose that’s not surprising. There doesn’t appear to be a direct causal relationship between them, but kilogrammatic challenge is the most likely from what I read. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The stereotype is of a middle aged male, overweight, who snores and has a collar size of 43cm or more. However: – OSA can occur without snoring. – It can happen to women as well. – It can happen to people who are not overweight, – to people who don’t have large necks – to people who are young, including babies. – to people who are perfectly fit such as American football players. Sometimes GPs will not suspect OSA if the patient doesn’t fit one of the stereotypes, and although it is quite common (about 5% of the population), many know little about it. It needs to be taken just as seriously as diabetes because apart from the direct impact of poor quality sleep (e.g. accidents), if not treated, there are a raft of other possible complications including hypertension, stroke, heart attack and a variety of others stemming from the reduction in blood oxygen saturation. By the time I was dx’d with OSA [2 years before dx with DM], I was having aural hallucinations [having non-existent conversations with equally non-existent people, seeing things in strange colours] and having blackouts.
That’s pretty bad. I tended to sleep poorly and be generally tired. It was picked up when hubby stayed up one night and recorded the number of times I stopped breathing [3-5 per hour] and for how long [average 17 seconds, longest 47 seconds].
That’s fairly mid-range in the scheme of things for OSA. In the UK, as in many other countries, it is illegal to drive with untreated OSA, and can carry a custodial sentence. And well it should do. The idea of being behind the wheel of a car in the state I was in is, frankly, horrifying.
OSA has its own "test strip" issue: – Illegal to drive once diagnosed until treated. – Lack of diagnostic and treatment facilities. – Long waiting periods. – Private insurance will pay for diagnosis but not for treatment equipment. Now the good news. Fortunately there is good and effective treatment, typically using nasal continuous positive airway pressure (nCPAP) – basically a small airblower which operates via a mask or equivalent arrangement and splints the airways open during sleep. It sounds bad but for most people, actually isn’t. It took no time at all to get used to using the machine. And getting up feeling rested is something you don’t appreciate until you haven’t done so for a while.
Likewise, although for some people it can take weeks or even months to notice a difference. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In the past, there have been surgical treatments involving ENT surgery, but these have a poor success rate. There are a couple of simple things that can be done as an initial patient thing – Epworth Sleepiness Test. This is a questionnaire based test which needs to be answered honestly. http://www.stanford.edu/~dement/epworth.html – Ask a partner if they notice any stopping of breathing and gasping during sleep. If unsure, push for a referral to a sleep clinic. In the UK, these are generally run by pulmonology departments. There are various tests that can be done for OSA, ranging from detection of blood oxygen desaturation while asleep to polysomnograms with a whole bunch of equipment such as EEG, ECG and so on. The OP may have other sleep disorders and it may be that further referral for neurological tests could be needed, typically in a sleep lab. Agreed, since the longer it [whether OSA or something else] goes untreated, the worse the symptoms will get, and you could end up being treated for mental health problems – I was wrongly dx’d with depression before dx with OSA.
I tend to think that there’s a whole bunch of overlapping health issues with all of this – a kind of vicious circle. If you think about it: – What do people do if they are feeling tired during the day? Stimulants and sugary drinks and snacks. Result is a sugar/insulin rollercoaster. – What do they do if feeling depressed or stressed? Comfort eat, especially carbohydrate, because it results in serotonin release. Both phenomena lay the groundwork for weight gain and T2 diabetes, and possibly apnoea. It’s hard to say where the entrance to all this starts, but one can see the relationships. Maggie
– .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I suffered very badly from insomnia before diagnosis and for quite a while after. Once my sugars got down to a reasonable level I found it much beter. I did notice that when I couldn’t sleep that my heartrate was raised – presumably from pumping the thicker blood around. Yup I had the same problem before DX, mainly because I was having to get up 5 times each night to go to the toilet!! Interesting that you say you had an elevated heartrate when you couldn’t sleep, I often have the same when I wake up in the middle of night, which i usually think means that my blood sugar is low, but then I check and it isn’t.
Steve, Both of these are also classical sleep apnoea symptoms. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/63lbg and http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/118/3/591 as examples. Don’t assume that because you are not a stereotype for OSA (e.g. not overweight) that it isn’t possible. It could be. It would be a good idea to get it checked if these are still issues. — .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Response:
Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night.
Not a snorer according to the wife, and am a pretty typical skinny T1. I saw a documentary on sleep apnia last year tho, found it fascinating – I had no idea that so many people suffered from it and the extent to which it messed up their lives.
Response:
I suffered very badly from insomnia before diagnosis and for quite a while after. Once my sugars got down to a reasonable level I found it much beter. I did notice that when I couldn’t sleep that my heartrate was raised – presumably from pumping the thicker blood around.
Yup I had the same problem before DX, mainly because I was having to get up 5 times each night to go to the toilet!! Interesting that you say you had an elevated heartrate when you couldn’t sleep, I often have the same when I wake up in the middle of night, which i usually think means that my blood sugar is low, but then I check and it isn’t.
Response:
careful Steve at 5′6" and 125 lbs i was diagnosed with Sleep Apnea but if you aren’t waking up gasping for breath (you don’t know you wake up btw) then you are probably safe if you have the video equipment to record a night’s sleep i would do that just to double check kate — Join us in the Diabetic-Talk Chatroom on UnderNet /server irc.undernet.org — /join #Diabetic-Talk More info: http://www.diabetic-talk.org/ I have no medical qualifications beyond my own experience. Choose your advisers carefully, because experience can be an expensive teacher.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. Not a snorer according to the wife, and am a pretty typical skinny T1. I saw a documentary on sleep apnia last year tho, found it fascinating – I had no idea that so many people suffered from it and the extent to which it messed up their lives.
Response:
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| | Looking at another angle steve – are you a snorer? More of a problem in | overweight T2s, but sleep apnoea (apnia) affects some of us. A condition | where you stop breathing while sleeping. Leads to a definite loss of | sleep and leaves you feeling godawful and unrested in the morning after | bouncing you between dozing and awake all night. | | |Not a snorer according to the wife, and am a pretty typical skinny T1. I saw |a documentary on sleep apnia last year tho, found it fascinating – I had no |idea that so many people suffered from it and the extent to which it messed |up their lives. | Hi All FWIW my snore-o-meter (swmbo) advises me that I changed from loud, long and frequent to gentle, short duration and infrequent within a couple of months of ceasing smoking. I remind readers that we are discussing snoring, not other bedroom matters. Apparently my snoring diminished even further when I lost a lot of weight a year later after I was dx. Of course, I don’t believe I ever snored anyway. But, somehow, when I was away from base on deployment in the RAAF, I always got my own room when the others shared:-) Cheers, Alan, T2 d&e, Australia. Remove weight and carbs to email. — Everything in Moderation – Except Laughter.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Both of these are also classical sleep apnoea symptoms. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/63lbg and http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/118/3/591 as examples. Don’t assume that because you are not a stereotype for OSA (e.g. not overweight) that it isn’t possible. It could be. It would be a good idea to get it checked if these are still issues. Andy, thanks for the links, I guess it obviously something worth considering, I’ll ask the wife to look out for any signs of osa, maybe try and borrow a video camera off a friend.
It certainly wouldn’t hurt. You could also try the Epworth Sleepiness Test, which is a questionnaire based and about daytime sleepiness. Answer it honestly and the results can be useful as another data point. If you’re in any doubt, do discuss with the doctor and ask for a sleep study referral. Obviously doing these things in the wrong order would be amusing, not sure what the wife would make of me setting up a camera in the bedroom with no explanation!!!!
Dual purpose I suppose. Just make sure you keep the tape. 
— .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl
Response:
Has anyone else here suffered from insomnia after becoming diabetic??
Oh yes! It’s not that I can’t sleep I just don’t seem to need as much – I can be happily working away on something (nerd alert: computer systems guy) and I stop when I feel tired – but this can be any time from midnight to 4am. I’m generally woken by the alarm clock at 7am and, hey ho, off to work. I have always found it takes me a good hour to drop off to sleep if I go to bed at a ‘normal’ time (say 11pm) and I often listen to the radio for the duration, but if I go to bed a 4am I’m generally asleep in 10 mins. I don’t feel tired all the time, have no problems driving etc. and I don’t stay awake until such ludicrous times every day – maybe just 2 times a week – and whether it’s doing me any serious damage…not sure! SJH
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Steve, Both of these are also classical sleep apnoea symptoms. Take a look at http://tinyurl.com/63lbg and http://www.chestjournal.org/cgi/content/full/118/3/591 as examples. Don’t assume that because you are not a stereotype for OSA (e.g. not overweight) that it isn’t possible. It could be. It would be a good idea to get it checked if these are still issues.
Andy, thanks for the links, I guess it obviously something worth considering, I’ll ask the wife to look out for any signs of osa, maybe try and borrow a video camera off a friend. Obviously doing these things in the wrong order would be amusing, not sure what the wife would make of me setting up a camera in the bedroom with no explanation!!!!
