Sleep Sex In Marriage– Is It RAPE?
Question:
Ken, normally what you said would be the case but there is an halfway exception. Lorena Bobbit, she cut off his penis and left it on the road a few blocks away. oooooch There was no outwardly signs of any marital problems. Lorena never told anyone at the beauty parlor were she worked. The neighbors didn’t hear anything either. However, she stated in court that he always forced himself on her and then one day she went crazy. The courts didn’t know what to do. Now she’s back in Ecuador. If you remember the case, you know messy it was. The guy was lucky for micro surgery Of course, given his recent past of a few years,,,,,,, we all know she was telling the truth,,,,since, he’s been in court a few times for the same problem. While he wasn’t convicted, we know he should of been.
Response:
yea, this brought back some painful memories. I am SO happy to have divorced him 8 years ago. During the trouble year before the divorce, there are multiple times I refused to have sex with him. Despite I kept pushing off and told him I did not want to, he insisted. No, I did not push hard enough, I guess. I would have to punch him. But I did not because I felt bad. He did it, and I was left miserable. I was SO upset afterwards, but did he care, NOP! I divorced him and kept him away, never was in a place with him alone. Up to this date, he still thinks he did not do anything wrong. Hell with him. The hatred stayed with me though. I think I will have felt much better if I had done something like filing a charge against him back then.
Response:
"Pamela" <Pam…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:EIaS8.5775$XO2.2493@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… > That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, > sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are > married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being > property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true > in the case of a woman raping a man.
I don’t think that is the issue here. In any criminal case the burden of proof is on the state to demonstrate guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable doubt. In a situation where a wife claims maritial rape and where the couple is not estranged and there is no corrobating evidence (injury consistent with spousal abuse, overheard screams, prior domestic violence complaints, etc.), there is really no way to prove anything. Rape kit evidence is useless when the occurance of sexual intercourse is not in dispute. Sex between a husband and wife will generally be considered consentual without evidence to the contrary. This has nothing to do with any presumption of bodily ownership. One person’s word against another is simply not enough.
Response:
Neil wrote "Yes." Really. Some people would argue that there is a thing called "implied consent" in marriage.
Response:
The rape topic is a little touchy where I’m concerned because I firmly beleive a lot of woemen throw this accusation around unjustifiably which in turn not only hurts and destroys the lives of many innocent men, but does nothing to help the numerous women who have legitamately gone through such a hellish ordeal. I know personally of a woman who slept with a guy. After the fact she realized it was wrong, a mistake, and since she couldn’t take it back, she called it rape in some misguided effort to make herself feel better. She had no idea of the impact this had on her partner at the time. On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:28:42 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Clodius Albinus) wrote: >Neil wrote >"Yes." >Really. Some people would argue that there is a thing called "implied >consent" in marriage.
Response:
jd…@yahoo.com (Johnnie Kendricks) wrote: >My wife has my express permission to wake me up for sex at any time. >I love it when she takes me up on it, too!
Sounds like a healthy male to me. CJ
Response:
There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some states still. Indeed, I remember reading a statement a while back (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since then.
Response:
So anyway, Clodius Albinus [clodiusalbi...@webtv.net] wrote in message: news:1528-3D19E0E1-24@storefull-2398.public.lawson.webtv.net: > There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in > all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you > limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife.
i don’t live in the US, and as a general rule try not to pay too much attention to it. However, sufficiently intrigued by your earlier claims, i coincidentally looked at some such sites this afternoon. In view of my previous statement, consider me astonished. ;-) > Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some > states still. Indeed, I remember reading a statement a while back > (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) > that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the > marital rape exemption laws.
From the brief amount that i’ve read, it seems that in the 33 states which retain them, the exemption clauses do allow for marital rape under certain circumstances. What is wrong with your country? Anyway, come on now. You know a lot more about this than you’re letting on. What’s the twist? > But if I recall correctly the post was > dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since > then.
The same thing occurred to me – the latest site i could find was dated ‘99 – and i’d be very interested to know if anything has changed since then. — Neil
Response:
So anyway, J. Brian Chamberlin [jbrianchamber...@yahoo.com] wrote in message: news:3d199092.20586181@news1.news.adelphia.net: > The rape topic is a little touchy where I’m concerned because I firmly > beleive a lot of woemen throw this accusation around unjustifiably > which in turn not only hurts and destroys the lives of many innocent > men, but does nothing to help the numerous women who have legitamately > gone through such a hellish ordeal.
False accusations do happen, but i’m told that the rates of false reporting for rape are similar to the rates of false reporting of any other crime. In any case, it’s reasonable to assume that false accusations represent a very small minority of all accusations. The emphasis of your post seems to give the opposite impression. > I know personally of a woman who slept with a guy.
i know lots of women like that. Sorry, but sometimes they’re too good to miss. ;-) > After the fact she realized it was wrong, a > mistake, and since she couldn’t take it back, she called it rape in > some misguided effort to make herself feel better. She had no idea of > the impact this had on her partner at the time.
Was the guy you? If not, whose version of events did you get? Even assuming that this is true, one piece of anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the fact that these kinds of incidents represent the minority of all accusations. That doesn’t mean that they’re trivial; but likewise they shouldn’t be allowed to trivialise genuine claims of rape. Because the question that occurs to me is, what on earth does your perspective have to do with someone who quite explicitly proposes to rape his future wife, and my response that "sleep sex" without consent constitutes rape? — Neil
Response:
It all depends upon consent, doesn’t it? Consent can change, right? There was a case here in Australia where a man was charged and found guilty of rape when the woman he was with at the time changed her mind only moments before he climaxed. It was too late for him, in more ways than one. He was eventually freed when the woman (togther with her lesbian lover iirc) admitted it was a set up from the start. Given that lovemaking can turn from a pleasurable experience with a willing and caring partner, into a life sentence depending upon how the woman may choose to feel about it sometime into the future…well it’s a wonder that women get laid at all ;> Big Surf
Response:
Which states? As far as I know all 50 states have laws against marital rape. The caveat is that many of the states do allow an exemption under certain conditions like time frame in which the rape must be reported, fear of death, few other things, but I can’t remember them all. You can actually get a listing of all the state law on this by contacting the national clearing house. Clodius Albinus <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:1528-3D19E0E1-24@storefull-2398.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in > all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you > limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. > Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some > states still. Indeed, I remember reading a statement a while back > (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) > that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the > marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was > dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since > then.
Response:
"Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… > *if* she does not consent to it beforehand?
It is in my state. An offender commits the crime of sexual assault in the second degree if … (3) the offender engages in sexual penetration with a person who the offender knows is … (B) incapacitated; or (C) unaware that a sexual act is being committed;
Response:
Sometimes I slept right through it – heh heh Sourdough <Sourdough at myrealbox dotcom> wrote in message news:uhmn3h9v3ofh82@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? > It is in my state. > An offender commits the crime of sexual assault in the second degree if > … > (3) the offender engages in sexual penetration with a person who the > offender knows is > … > (B) incapacitated; or > (C) unaware that a sexual act is being committed;
Response:
On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:40:20 GMT, "Pamela" <Pam…@msn.com> wrote: >That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, >sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are >married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being >property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true >in the case of a woman raping a man.
He has a point. Proving a marital rape (or rape by an intimate, while not married) may be more difficult than proving a rape in which the alleged victim/perpetrator were not already sexually involved. Laurie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->J. Brian Chamberlin <jbrianchamber…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:3d19334e.5896558@news1.news.adelphia.net… >> When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for >> certain? >> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net >> (Clodius Albinus) wrote: >> >"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape >> >against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." >> >You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully >> >prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving >> >prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number >> >successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This >> >despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger >> >rape does. >> >I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the >> >convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives >> >when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged >> >wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just >> >reported more often).
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Pamela" <Pam…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:9jCS8.1401$Ha3.148286@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… > Which states? As far as I know all 50 states have laws against marital > rape. The caveat is that many of the states do allow an exemption under > certain conditions like time frame in which the rape must be reported, fear > of death, few other things, but I can’t remember them all. You can actually > get a listing of all the state law on this by contacting the national > clearing house. > Clodius Albinus <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:1528-3D19E0E1-24@storefull-2398.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in > > all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you > > limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. > > Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some > > states still. Indeed, I remember reading a statement a while back > > (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) > > that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the > > marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was > > dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since > > then.
Despite all laws, thinking morally, marital rape is still rape. Just because a person is married does not mean they are obligated to have sex with their partner at any given time. Intercourse is not a vow taken during marriage. However, you are all current in stating that many states do have laws against it. They sad thing is that the law tends to shy away from getting involved in domestic messes, which is what marital rape cases fall under. There are many claims and accusations that float through the system that are false. Sadly people file claims against spouses for many things just to "get back" at them for something. Many courts have begun to assume that a lot of these types of claims are untrue and a waste of time. That’s way you don’t see it successfully proven very often.
Response:
So anyway, Shawn [shawndiane_1...@yahoo.com] wrote in message: news:Y06S8.54232$uk2.22623354@twister.nyroc.rr.com: > This is a no-brainer which is probably why you asked (or a troll).
Both. — Neil
Response:
So anyway, Clodius Albinus [clodiusalbi...@webtv.net] wrote in message: news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net: > *if* she does not consent to it beforehand?
Yes. > I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex > wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband > having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject > interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which > I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and > body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly > turns me on!
In answer to your earlier question, i doubt that rape in marriage is illegal in Iraq. Why don’t you move there. followups set — Neil
Response:
clodiusalbi…@webtv.net (Clodius Albinus) wrote: >I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex >wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband >having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE.
It’s a gray zone. And certainly folks take great liberties to rationalize their disrespectful conduct when we’re talking about gray zone. I’ll perhaps say this: if someone takes of advantage of me for their own self-serving purposes when I’m not in a position to consent — like when I’m sleeping — I generally regard that as a violation of personal space. For some of us, we have enough sense of conscience, that as a guideline, we can generally determine right from wrong only by not treating others the way we wouldn’t want to be treated ourselves. And for those who don’t have so much of a conscience that they can use to help guide them, then they are better off to get consent from others before crossing the boundaries of their personal space. And to those who would say "Yeah, but we’re married," I would say that marriage is all that more of a reason to be respectful of personal boundaries, not a reason to treat another person as our own person property like they were more an object than a person. If my wife said, "Sure, anytime, anywhere, even if it wakes me up," that’s one thing. But beyond this, I wouldn’t necessarily want to distrub her sleep any more than I’d want my sleep distrubed. There are perhaps moments or days of exception. But in as much as marriage generally is in part about fostering a sense of safety and security for our spouse, part of that comes from respecting their own personal space. So if you’re going to go this route, keep in mind that you’re flirting with crossing a personal boundary, and so perhaps shouldn’t be at surprise if this kind of conduct comes back and bite you in the ass…. in a not altogether pleasent way. CJ
Response:
Why do I get the feeling the responses are going to be quoted in a book or talk show. "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? > I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think > it’s rape and some don’t. > I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex > wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband > having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject > interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which > I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and > body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly > turns me on! > And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here > are some questions; > When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he > was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? > Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? > If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed > and continue to have his way with you? > And to all; > If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on > par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? > Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the > same legal consequences as > a stranger rapist or a date rapist? > Thank you.
Response:
On 25 Jun 2002 23:00:51 GMT, cjmorga…@aol.com (CJMorgan59) wrote: >If my wife said, "Sure, anytime, anywhere, even if it wakes me up," that’s one >thing. But beyond this, I wouldn’t necessarily want to distrub her sleep any >more than I’d want my sleep distrubed.
My wife has my express permission to wake me up for sex at any time. I love it when she takes me up on it, too! Subversionmania
Response:
"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger rape does. I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just reported more often).
Response:
When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for certain? On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Clodius Albinus) wrote: >"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape >against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." >You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully >prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving >prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number >successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This >despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger >rape does. >I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the >convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives >when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged >wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just >reported more often).
Response:
That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true in the case of a woman raping a man. J. Brian Chamberlin <jbrianchamber…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3d19334e.5896558@news1.news.adelphia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for > certain? > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net > (Clodius Albinus) wrote: > >"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape > >against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." > >You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully > >prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving > >prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number > >successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This > >despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger > >rape does. > >I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the > >convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives > >when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged > >wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just > >reported more often).
Response:
*if* she does not consent to it beforehand? I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think it’s rape and some don’t. I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly turns me on! And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here are some questions; When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed and continue to have his way with you? And to all; If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the same legal consequences as a stranger rapist or a date rapist? Thank you.
Response:
This is a no-brainer which is probably why you asked (or a troll). Ask her first. Period. Given you are not married yet I think it is safe to assume you can find a moment to find an ounce of respect for her prior to your planned event. If she says she would not like it, don’t do it. If she says it’s OK. Then it is OK. When you think of it…if you love your wife…why in the hell would you even consider doing anything she might not like? My sincere condolences to your future bride and to the other wives of any of the husbands out there that actually contemplated this question. "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? > I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think > it’s rape and some don’t. > I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex > wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband > having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject > interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which > I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and > body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly > turns me on! > And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here > are some questions; > When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he > was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? > Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? > If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed > and continue to have his way with you? > And to all; > If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on > par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? > Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the > same legal consequences as > a stranger rapist or a date rapist? > Thank you.
