anxiety meds, and corrupt doctors?
Question:
I assume from this list that you believe that any drug that increases brain GABA levels or mimics that neurotransmitter will do what benzos do. They don’t. And the probable reason is that there is a lot of evidence that most of us with anxiety/panic disorders have fewer than "normal" numbers of benzodiazepine receptors. Just adding extra GABA is a bit like filling the gas tank to compensate for the spark plugs removed in my earlier analogy. No matter how much gas you pour into the tank, the engine will still run rough. That’s an intriguing idea. It does seem plausible. I do recall my entire life I have been easily agitated, and have always felt that there was something extremely different about me from other people.
References to papers about folk with anxiety disorders having reduced benzo binding sites are listed in the Addiction v Dependency article under, from memory, [5]. Thanks for the info. Drew
I see from one of your replies to Philip that you’re Canadian. Unfortunately, the anti benzo agitators are targeting Canadian doctors at the moment. So far they’ve managed to con the provincial governments of Alberta, BC, and Saskatchewan to pay for the distribution of their literature to all GPs in the province. So your ability to get benzodiazepine prescriptions in the future may be at risk. :-( Ian
Response:
They are wrong. You can become dependent to them, but not addicted. To save bandwidth I won’t repost something I wrote a few weeks ago on the difference between dependency and addiction and why you can’t be addicted to benzos, at least not chemically-psychologically is another matter. However, I’m sure you will easily find it by doing a Goggle newsgroup search for subject " Benzos: Addiction v Dependence (WARNING – long) "
That’s a very good article. I’ll print that out and show it to my doc, see what he has to say about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal. I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do. Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? Antidepressants can be just as effective, but I suspect that you’ve been started on too high a dose, suffered intolerable side effects as a result and understandable been turned off them.
Actually, I was on zoloft for 6 months, during which time the only notable effect was to make me depressed and sluggish. I was on paxil for 3+ months, during which time (unbeknownst to me at the time) I became a danger to myself and others with my erratic driving (I am usually a very cautious driver), and woke up each and every morning feeling like I was about to die. The effexor that the pdoc prescribed me was the lowest dose possible (37.5mg), and it put psychotic thoughts into my head within a few days, plus it made me feel like I was on speed, and like my head was about to explode. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful. Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). Most of these are anti seizure meds which have little if any effect on anxiety. Some, for example, vigabatrin can produce psychosis as a side effect. I assume from this list that you believe that any drug that increases brain GABA levels or mimics that neurotransmitter will do what benzos do. They don’t. And the probable reason is that there is a lot of evidence that most of us with anxiety/panic disorders have fewer than "normal" numbers of benzodiazepine receptors. Just adding extra GABA is a bit like filling the gas tank to compensate for the spark plugs removed in my earlier analogy. No matter how much gas you pour into the tank, the engine will still run rough.
That’s an intriguing idea. It does seem plausible. I do recall my entire life I have been easily agitated, and have always felt that there was something extremely different about me from other people. Thanks for the info. Drew
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – if two particular SSRIs have given me adverse effects and/or not helped the initial symptoms, would it even be worth it to try the other SSRIs? My inclination would be to stay away from that particular class of medications, but the pdoc wants me to try another one (Celexa). Is this wise? Celexa is supposed to be the SSRI with the lowest side effect profile. I know several people who had bad experiences with two or even three SSRI’s and benefited greatly from another one but there is no way of telling whether this will aplly to you too. If a benzo works well enough for you that is what you should take IMHO. But if you want top explore the antidepressants I’d thinkl there would be no harm in trying Celexa (starting at 5 mg and raising the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg) or possibly a TCA like imipramine. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Well, there you are. And I said earlier: Find another doctor who is not benzophobic. And I’ll say it again: "Find another doctor who is not benzophobic" 
) Yes, I am aware of the dependence factor, which is why I’ve been very sparing in my benzo usage. Do you happen to know what would be a reasonably safe upper limit of use in terms of quantity and frequency? No. It varies. If you take a benzo *as needed* there is little chance of getting dependent. At a regular daily dose you will get dependent. But I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s not so bad to be dependent on a med if the risk/benefit ratio is positive. I have been taking benzos for more than 32 years (and had some periods of being off them too) and I fully expect to take them for the rest of my life and I don’t wory about dependence because Xanax enables me to live a more or less *normal* life or at least a life I fnd most rewarding and plan to continue for a looooong time ) Currently I’ve been living through some rather hellish times, to keep my benzo use down to 2 or 3 times a month, which I know is very infrequent. That is *nothing* really. This is not the right way to take benzos and you make yourself suffer more than necessary. Find another doc.
Yeah, you are right. Unfortunately in Canada, they go to great lengths to try and prevent people from "doctor shopping". There is this one doctor that I’ve seen a few times though that might help. He was the one who initially prescribed a small amount of Ativan. He’s a gp, and I thought a pdoc might be more useful for my present situation, but apparently not. Drew
Response:
if two particular SSRIs have given me adverse effects and/or not helped the initial symptoms, would it even be worth it to try the other SSRIs? My inclination would be to stay away from that particular class of medications, but the pdoc wants me to try another one (Celexa). Is this wise?
Celexa is supposed to be the SSRI with the lowest side effect profile. I know several people who had bad experiences with two or even three SSRI’s and benefited greatly from another one but there is no way of telling whether this will aplly to you too. If a benzo works well enough for you that is what you should take IMHO. But if you want top explore the antidepressants I’d thinkl there would be no harm in trying Celexa (starting at 5 mg and raising the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg) or possibly a TCA like imipramine. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.
Well, there you are. And I said earlier: Find another doctor who is not benzophobic.
And I’ll say it again: "Find another doctor who is not benzophobic" ) Yes, I am aware of the dependence factor, which is why I’ve been very sparing in my benzo usage. Do you happen to know what would be a reasonably safe upper limit of use in terms of quantity and frequency?
No. It varies. If you take a benzo *as needed* there is little chance of getting dependent. At a regular daily dose you will get dependent. But I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s not so bad to be dependent on a med if the risk/benefit ratio is positive. I have been taking benzos for more than 32 years (and had some periods of being off them too) and I fully expect to take them for the rest of my life and I don’t wory about dependence because Xanax enables me to live a more or less *normal* life or at least a life I fnd most rewarding and plan to continue for a looooong time ) Currently I’ve been living through some rather hellish times, to keep my benzo use down to 2 or 3 times a month, which I know is very infrequent.
That is *nothing* really. This is not the right way to take benzos and you make yourself suffer more than necessary. Find another doc. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder. I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it. So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos. All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway). They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive,
They are wrong. You can become dependent to them, but not addicted. To save bandwidth I won’t repost something I wrote a few weeks ago on the difference between dependency and addiction and why you can’t be addicted to benzos, at least not chemically-psychologically is another matter. However, I’m sure you will easily find it by doing a Goggle newsgroup search for subject " Benzos: Addiction v Dependence (WARNING – long) " and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs. Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation? Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies. Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks.
I don’t know if your doctor is accepting kick-backs, but I’m not surprised that he is a benzo-phob. Unfortunately, more and more doctors are being brainwashed into believing that benzos are some evil concoction. There is quite a worldwide campaign being mounted by an ignorant few to have benzos completely banned. Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs. Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania. Are these effects common?
Depression – no worse anxiety – yes, initially, until the brain adapts which is why you should start on a low dose and only increase by small increments. sexual dysfunction – yes, but there are things you can do to lessen this. Do a Goggle search of back posts using " sexual dysfunction " as the key words. mania – not common, but it does happen. It has happened to me with every SSRI I’ve tried. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD. The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience". Is this guy incompetent? I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside?
It shows he is human. Buspar may be 60-80% effective, but if those stats are born out by his experience I can understand why he has abandoned it. However, you, not he, is ultimately in charge of your health, so if you want to try it then insist he writes you a prescription, or go elsewhere. So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea. Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.
No, none of the antidepressants either increase or decrease neurotransmitters levels in the brain except for the initial few weeks. Levels drop back to baseline about the time that the med fully kicks in. The main effect of antidepressants is to down-regulate (reduce) the number and sensitivity of some receptors, which is a bit like reducing your car’s engine power by removing a sparkplug or two. As I understand it, this is what benzos do.
No. Benzos increase the effectiveness of receptors for the neurotransmitter GABA. GABA is the brain’s main inhibitory neurotransmitter. That is it (mostly) slows down the "firing" rate of affected neurons. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal. I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do. Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about?
Antidepressants can be just as effective, but I suspect that you’ve been started on too high a dose, suffered intolerable side effects as a result and understandable been turned off them. I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful. Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?).
Most of these are anti seizure meds which have little if any effect on anxiety. Some, for example, vigabatrin can produce psychosis as a side effect. I assume from this list that you believe that any drug that increases brain GABA levels or mimics that neurotransmitter will do what benzos do. They don’t. And the probable reason is that there is a lot of evidence that most of us with anxiety/panic disorders have fewer than "normal" numbers of benzodiazepine receptors. Just adding extra GABA is a bit like filling the gas tank to compensate for the spark plugs removed in my earlier analogy. No matter how much gas you pour into the tank, the engine will still run rough. This group seems to be pretty active, and full of knowledgeable people. Thanks for any information you can give! Drew
Good luck Ian
Response:
Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation?
yepers Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.
no-not really years ago the pharm co’s offered incentives for high script writtings but this has changed over the past 7 years or so-the problem is the education provided to the docs from detail salespersons, studies that are done by pharm co’s and the public opinion of past years experiences with gluttunous over prescribing of benzos by gp’s internists and other inexperienced docs Are these effects common?
yeppers reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD. The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".
he is correct-it sadly has a poor track record since it acts actually like a weak ssri Is this guy incompetent?
most are I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside?
these studies are flawed his expereince in this area is most likely correct-his benzophobia is incorrect t I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.
well sort of—-they need to be used more efficiently in fact using ad meds does reduce the level of these amines n the brain by creating a saturation of them at first (hence the nasty side effects) and then more receptors to absorb the higher levels which then reduces the total free amount of it as well as enables your body to use them with greater efficacy-the drugs also stimuate parallel amine systems to modulate like variant forms of epinephrine, 5ht, dopamine, endorphines, and a host of other less well known amines As I understand it, this is what benzos do
nope benzo receptors are ganged together with gaba receptors which act as a magnet for neurotransmitters like gaba and possibly some benzo-like amines yet undiscovered. By enhancing inhibitory effects of gaba one reduces sprurious firing of excititory nature reducing anxiety without reducing consciousnes or awareness can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.
then you need to find a doc willing to do what’s best for you insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?).
remeron, zopiclone, zoplidem, gabatril and gabapentin can be used for augmenting sleep-gabapentin can be used forever, remeron is also safe the novel benzo sleep drugs are safe but had best be used for short periods due to tolerance-even though studies indicate that none builds-it is still too early to make this conclusion proper sleep hygiene, better habituations, and anxiety reduction help sleep better-the tca’s and remeron are a good choice if your not sensitive to them. Melatonin is another product that may help LM
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder. I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it. So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos. All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway). They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive, and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs. Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation? Your doctor is *benzophobic* which basically means that he didn’t do his homework and mistakenly thinks that benzos cause *addiction* instead of *dependence*. The funny thing is that SSRI’s also produce dependence…
Yes, I suspected as much. In fact, I’ve heard that stopping SSRIs abruptly can be as bad as, or worse than benzo withdrawl. Having gone through weeks of hell after stopping paxil even after tapering the dose for several weeks, I can believe how this might be true. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies. Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks. I don’t think there is a conspiracy of corrupt doctors. I do believe that there are a disconcerting lot of lazy ones who just read what the pharmaceutical companies offer them abd then obviously arrive at the wrong conclusions (if they do more than mechanically hand out SSRI’s that is). Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs. Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania. Are these effects common? Yes but they don’t have to occur. Antidepressants always worsen anxiety and add some idiotic side effects of their own in the beginning. These should be temporary but they can scare people off their meds: after all they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Doctors should warn their patients of initial problems. Moreover, many doctors start their anxiety patients out on a much to high dose and then raise that too quickly which makes for a bumpy rode. *Starting low and going slow* helps a lot as does havinga benzo on the side to take *as needed*.
I know quite well the horrible initial effects (I ended up in the hospital while initially taking paxil, with some horrible effects that the doc never told me about), but the manic (and other) effects I speak of were persistent, and continued during the entire 3+ month period I was taking paxil. Now that I look back on it, and realize how incredibly dangerous the behaviour was that I engaging in, I realize that I am *extremely* lucky to be alive today. At the time, unfortunately, my behaviour seemed completely normal and rational to me. With zoloft, it was mainly a mild steady depression for 6 months. After a few days of effexor giving me major ups and downs, and wanting to harm myself and others during the down periods, I promptly decided that I wasn’t going to go through that again. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD. The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience". Is this guy incompetent? I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside? Buspar is a weak med which can be effective for some with mild to moderate
GAD. Yes, I’d say I have mild to moderate GAD. It can get extreme at times, but now that I have been practicing relaxation techniques, I haven’t become incapacitated because of it lately. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea. Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain. These neurotransmiters and opthers should be optimally available at the places where they are needed. In practice downregulating of receptors may well reduce the overall levels of the implicated neurotransmitters although the *whole mechanism* is really largely unknown. As I understand it, this is what benzos do. Benzos bind to benzodiazepine receptors which are "attractive" to GABA, the neurotransmitter which is influenced by benzos. It is all much more complicated really, were it only because intervention in the behavior of one neurotransmitter will set off a chain reaction or at leas with have influence on the behavior of other neurotransmitters. A lot of research will still have to be done to properly understand the working of the brain and the etiology of anxiety disorders.
Yes, I shouldn’t let myself get lured into thinking that the whole system is comprehensible, no matter how much I’ve read about it. I suppose trial and error is the best we’ve got at this time. One thing I’d like to know, however, is that if two particular SSRIs have given me adverse effects and/or not helped the initial symptoms, would it even be worth it to try the other SSRIs? My inclination would be to stay away from that particular class of medications, but the pdoc wants me to try another one (Celexa). Is this wise? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Yep, they work for most (not all) people. Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal. I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do. Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? No. IMO benzos are the best and the safest meds around, also for long term medication. They *do* cause dependence (meaning your body will adjust to the presence of the benzo which consquently shouldn’t be discontinued suddenly by only by way of a slow taper in order to prevent or minimize possible withdrawal symptoms which is easy for some and more difficult for others). Find another doctor who is not benzophobic.
Yes, I am aware of the dependence factor, which is why I’ve been very sparing in my benzo usage. Do you happen to know what would be a reasonably safe upper limit of use in terms of quantity and frequency? Currently I’ve been living through some rather hellish times, to keep my benzo use down to 2 or 3 times a month, which I know is very infrequent. It would be good to have a more solid understanding of what it takes to start getting into benzo dependence territory. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful. Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). Buspirone = Buspar. I think you’d be best off with a benzo. For sleep (if really necessary, often insomnia is part of an anxiety disorder and goes away when the disorder is properly treated): low dose Remeron, low dose amitryptiline or Trazadone. Benzos are less suitable because usually one develops tolerance to their sedative effect, so they should not be used as sleeping aids otherwise than for a short while.
Oh yes, I’ve had a *MAJOR* sleeping disorder for most of my life. As far back as I can remember at any rate. I have gotten it 80% under control with the occasional use of melatonin, which is so far the only thing that has ever worked for me, and I’ve tried pretty much everything I could get my hands on for helping with sleep. Benzos, interestingly don’t particularly help for sleep with me. In fact, if I am really anxious, and don’t want to do anything because of it, taking a benzo actually motivates me, and gives me energy to move around and do stuff. Thanks for the info. Drew
Response:
Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder. I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it. So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos. All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway). They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive, and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs. Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation?
Your doctor is *benzophobic* which basically means that he didn’t do his homework and mistakenly thinks that benzos cause *addiction* instead of *dependence*. The funny thing is that SSRI’s also produce dependence… Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies. Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks.
I don’t think there is a conspiracy of corrupt doctors. I do believe that there are a disconcerting lot of lazy ones who just read what the pharmaceutical companies offer them abd then obviously arrive at the wrong conclusions (if they do more than mechanically hand out SSRI’s that is). Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs. Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania. Are these effects common?
Yes but they don’t have to occur. Antidepressants always worsen anxiety and add some idiotic side effects of their own in the beginning. These should be temporary but they can scare people off their meds: after all they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Doctors should warn their patients of initial problems. Moreover, many doctors start their anxiety patients out on a much to high dose and then raise that too quickly which makes for a bumpy rode. *Starting low and going slow* helps a lot as does havinga benzo on the side to take *as needed*. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD. The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience". Is this guy incompetent? I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside?
Buspar is a weak med which can be effective for some with mild to moderate GAD. So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea. Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.
These neurotransmiters and opthers should be optimally available at the places where they are needed. In practice downregulating of receptors may well reduce the overall levels of the implicated neurotransmitters although the *whole mechanism* is really largely unknown. As I understand it, this is what benzos do.
Benzos bind to benzodiazepine receptors which are "attractive" to GABA, the neurotransmitter which is influenced by benzos. It is all much more complicated really, were it only because intervention in the behavior of one neurotransmitter will set off a chain reaction or at leas with have influence on the behavior of other neurotransmitters. A lot of research will still have to be done to properly understand the working of the brain and the etiology of anxiety disorders. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.
Yep, they work for most (not all) people. Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal. I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do. Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about?
No. IMO benzos are the best and the safest meds around, also for long term medication. They *do* cause dependence (meaning your body will adjust to the presence of the benzo which consquently shouldn’t be discontinued suddenly by only by way of a slow taper in order to prevent or minimize possible withdrawal symptoms which is easy for some and more difficult for others). Find another doctor who is not benzophobic. I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful. Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?).
Buspirone = Buspar. I think you’d be best off with a benzo. For sleep (if really necessary, often insomnia is part of an anxiety disorder and goes away when the disorder is properly treated): low dose Remeron, low dose amitryptiline or Trazadone. Benzos are less suitable because usually one develops tolerance to their sedative effect, so they should not be used as sleeping aids otherwise than for a short while. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
This is all bull. You are most likely a good pay for your doctor. It depends of the country. If you live in USor Canada this could be very close to the truth. Do you know that your doctor may legally indorse some of the medications and have a cut ? Have you asked him if he is affiliated with any pharma company ? Do you know that when they go to a conference all the bills are paid by the PAXIL or similar multy billion pharma people ? If you read the history of the benzos you will see that the a same cocksuckers wrote more then 60 MILLION prescriptions the first year the valium was introduced? Why did not they question the long term effect of the benzos then ? They did not give a shit ! Do not live in denial, and better face the facts. After the pattent expired in 14 years do you know what ? About 6000 new benzos were introdesed on the market. Everybody was eager to cash in ! In the market war just a "few hundred survived"…. and hit the jackpot 
Have you watched this disgusting paxil commercial ? Do you know that the pharma companies are the top adds spender ? The same is happening now with these horrific serotonin boosters. May be in 20 years if a medical doctor gives you a prescription he/she may end up in jail. But now they have a very good approach. TRIAL AND ERROR. I have not seen a profession that can give you such a irresponsibility. If you ask me there is nothing wrong with the benzos. At least they will help you with the pain and suffering. See a good psychologist, not psychiatrist if you can afford it. Why most medical plans let you see a psychiatrist but not a psychologist ? They prescribe medications and it is good for the western economy. Ohh man, I have been in this disgusting situation for about 6 years. I live in Vancouver, BC and do you know what ? We have a shortage of medical doctors and nurses and even if you want to see a shrink you have to wait about 6 months if you are not psychotic. If you are, then they will "take care of you" just because of the fact you might be in danger for the society not because anybody cares. Let me step a few lines back. Why we in Canada have a shortage of doctors ? I have a simple answer. They are lured by the US. they are qualified to work in the US and to make 3-5 times more money. So convenient for whoever has $$$$. Have you ever wondered how the sufferers in the so not so not well developed countries are treated ? Who cares, we have enough pain … So there you go, you become a victim of the same arroach. According to the statistic manual anxiety is a completely treatable disorder and about 80% recover, the same is with depression. What a joke. This is a billion dollar industry. Forget all this antidepressants junkies and try to find an alternative approach – yoga, meditation etc. Say good bye to salt and sugar . Vit B complex, Ca-Mg ( mega) and mega Vit C may help a bit. Just understand the mechanics of the disorder and face yourself. Serotonin deficiency is a theory, yes it’s a THEORY ! How come that your level of serotonin was not tested ? I am sick and tired of all the ignorance and propaganda. They have a proverb in China: If you can not find it in yourself where will you go for it ? Exercise your freedom of choice and judgement and do not become a victim of a brain washed society. Amen Wishing you all the good luck. PS. I am speking from the possition of a victim of Paxil and numerous other trial and error shit. I am responsible for myself and I will refuse to be a victim of somebodies theory. ion for SSRIs. Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this situation? Your doctor is *benzophobic* which basically means that he didn’t do his homework and mistakenly thinks that benzos cause *addiction* instead of *dependence*. The funny thing is that SSRI’s also produce dependence… Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies. Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks. I don’t think there is a conspiracy of corrupt doctors. I do believe that there are a disconcerting lot of lazy ones who just read what the pharmaceutical companies offer them abd then obviously arrive at the wrong conclusions (if they do more than mechanically hand out SSRI’s that is). Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs. Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania. Are these effects common? Yes but they don’t have to occur. Antidepressants always worsen anxiety and add some idiotic side effects of their own in the beginning. These should be temporary but they can scare people off their meds: after all they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Doctors should warn their patients of initial problems. Moreover, many doctors start their anxiety patients out on a much to high dose and then raise that too quickly which makes for a bumpy rode. *Starting low and going slow* helps a lot as does havinga benzo on the side to take *as needed*. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD. The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience". Is this guy incompetent? I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside? Buspar is a weak med which can be effective for some with mild to moderate GAD. So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea. Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain. These neurotransmiters and opthers should be optimally available at the places where they are needed. In practice downregulating of receptors may well reduce the overall levels of the implicated neurotransmitters although the *whole mechanism* is really largely unknown. As I understand it, this is what benzos do. Benzos bind to benzodiazepine receptors which are "attractive" to GABA, the neurotransmitter which is influenced by benzos. It is all much more complicated really, were it only because intervention in the behavior of one neurotransmitter will set off a chain reaction or at leas with have influence on the behavior of other neurotransmitters. A lot of research will still have to be done to properly understand the working of the brain and the etiology of anxiety disorders. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Yep, they work for most (not all) people. Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal. I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do. Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? No. IMO benzos are the best and the safest meds around, also for long term medication. They *do* cause dependence (meaning your body will adjust to the presence of the benzo which consquently shouldn’t be discontinued suddenly by only by way of a slow taper in order to prevent or minimize possible withdrawal symptoms which is easy for some and more difficult for others). Find another doctor who is not benzophobic. I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful. Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). Buspirone = Buspar. I think you’d be best off with a benzo. For sleep (if really necessary, often insomnia is part of an anxiety disorder and goes away when the disorder is properly treated): low dose Remeron, low dose amitryptiline or Trazadone. Benzos are less suitable because usually one develops tolerance to their sedative effect, so they should not be used as sleeping aids otherwise than for a short while. Philip
Response:
Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder. I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it. So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos. All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway). They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive, and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs. Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation? Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies. Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks. Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs. Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania. Are these effects common? Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD. The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience". Is this guy incompetent? I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside? So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea. Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain. As I understand it, this is what benzos do. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal. I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do. Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful. Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). This group seems to be pretty active, and full of knowledgeable people. Thanks for any information you can give! Drew
