On Fri, 10 Dec 2004 00:40:53 -0500, "Kees Boer" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<keesb…@integrity-computing.net> wrote: >Hi, I’ve got a question for you all. I’m an entertainment correspondent and >as such watch a lot of film and have to review television shows at times. >I’ve been reviewing the show DOC starring Billy Ray Cyrus lately, because I >was interviewing most of the cast. I asked Andrea Robinson today (she plays >nurse Nancy Nichol on the show and she just got a Gemini nomination for this >year (kind of a Canadian Emmy)) about sleep apnea. She doesn’t remember that >they did a show on it, though she had a suggestion for me and that is that I >sleep "upright on a pillow." She had heard that that helped. Anyone heard of >that? >Anyways, this week, I watched an old show of the sixties with puppets called >"The Thunderbirds." This is the show that preceded Universal Studios’ film >this last summer. Anyways in this old show, one of the puppets and >characters is sleeping and the soundeffects are clearly of sleepapnea. >Is there any other entertainment that has featured this sleeping disorder?

Uncle Junior Soprano on HBO’s Sopranos has sleep apnea. A year or two ago, there were episodes where he was fitted for headgear and mask, and his CPAP machine was set up by a technician. Dennis — Dennis McCandless Chicago

Response:

"REP" <r…@inanna.com> wrote in message

news:31srp0F3epni9U1@individual.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <IFaud.126506$%x.38104@okepread04>, > "Kees Boer" <keesb…@integrity-computing.net> wrote: >> Hi, I’ve got a question for you all. I’m an entertainment correspondent >> and >> as such watch a lot of film and have to review television shows at times. >> I’ve been reviewing the show DOC starring Billy Ray Cyrus lately, because >> I >> was interviewing most of the cast. I asked Andrea Robinson today (she >> plays >> nurse Nancy Nichol on the show and she just got a Gemini nomination for >> this >> year (kind of a Canadian Emmy)) about sleep apnea. She doesn’t remember >> that >> they did a show on it, though she had a suggestion for me and that is >> that I >> sleep "upright on a pillow." She had heard that that helped. Anyone heard >> of >> that? > You are aware that playing a nurse on TV doesn’t make a person a nurse > or give one any special medical knowledge?

Yes, I’m quite aware of that. Trust me, I wouldn’t be interviewing some of the people that I do, if they were like their character. Like I wouldn’t have interviewed Richard Kiel, who played Jaws in a couple of the Bond films. That would be scary. Although I have to say with the DOC show that they have medical personel working on that show to make sure that it is accurate and Andrea would never claim to be any sort of medical authority, but she has learned quite a bit from having acted as a nurse for the past 4 to 5 years. > Sleeping in a sitting position may make it easier for a person with > sleep apnea to breathe while asleep, but it is no substitute for > diagnosis or proper treatment.

Yes, I just found out that my insurance is paying for me to see a real sleep doctor this Thursday! Kees – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." > – Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

Response:

Hi, I’ve got a question for you all. I’m an entertainment correspondent and as such watch a lot of film and have to review television shows at times. I’ve been reviewing the show DOC starring Billy Ray Cyrus lately, because I was interviewing most of the cast. I asked Andrea Robinson today (she plays nurse Nancy Nichol on the show and she just got a Gemini nomination for this year (kind of a Canadian Emmy)) about sleep apnea. She doesn’t remember that they did a show on it, though she had a suggestion for me and that is that I sleep "upright on a pillow." She had heard that that helped. Anyone heard of that? Anyways, this week, I watched an old show of the sixties with puppets called "The Thunderbirds." This is the show that preceded Universal Studios’ film this last summer. Anyways in this old show, one of the puppets and characters is sleeping and the soundeffects are clearly of sleepapnea. Is there any other entertainment that has featured this sleeping disorder? Kees

Response:

In article <IFaud.126506$%x.38104@okepread04>,  "Kees Boer" <keesb…@integrity-computing.net> wrote: > Hi, I’ve got a question for you all. I’m an entertainment correspondent and > as such watch a lot of film and have to review television shows at times. > I’ve been reviewing the show DOC starring Billy Ray Cyrus lately, because I > was interviewing most of the cast. I asked Andrea Robinson today (she plays > nurse Nancy Nichol on the show and she just got a Gemini nomination for this > year (kind of a Canadian Emmy)) about sleep apnea. She doesn’t remember that > they did a show on it, though she had a suggestion for me and that is that I > sleep "upright on a pillow." She had heard that that helped. Anyone heard of > that?

You are aware that playing a nurse on TV doesn’t make a person a nurse or give one any special medical knowledge? Sleeping in a sitting position may make it easier for a person with sleep apnea to breathe while asleep, but it is no substitute for diagnosis or proper treatment. — "Did Father shoot him? I will eat Grandfather for dinner." – Helen Keller, on learning of the death of her grandfather

Response:

Have you ever had a sleep study done?  It really sounds to me like you have a sleeping disorder.  JMO Nancy permanently into the ether: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I throw my hands up! I have been wrestling with this freaking lack of sleep for two years now. People keep telling me the body will sleep when it gets tired enough. I am suspecting this is BS because at least once a week I go 30 or so hours without sleeping, then I only managed to get about four hours. My eyes get so tired it hurts to watch tv, surf the net or read. I have been tried out on Ambien, Sonata, Ristoril, remeron, seroquil, choralhydrate, doxipine/senniquan, some old meds that i can’t remember the name but my grandma has taken for twenty years. Some worked for a day, most never worked. My mother told me that since I was a toddler I was always up prowling around in the wee hours of the morning. Any body take sleep meds that actually allows you to sleep? I have another call into the pdoc, my next actual appointment is coming on the 7th. I know it does more harm than good to get frustrated over lack of sleep but I am sooo tired of not getting enough rest. I also have tried a million different herbal remedies too. A total waste of money. Any ideas?

Response:

I have had that level of trouble sleeping for nearly twenty years.  I used sleeping pills and tranquilizers for awhile, then I drank a lot for awhile, and later I just used Benadryl, thinking it was safer. But at doses of fifty pills or more each day, there are side effects. When I stopped those, I started having manic episodes that I had not recognized before.  Inability to sleep is a hallmark of bipolar disorder, particularly of the manic state.  It really must be controlled because lack of sleep may bring on increasingly severe manic states up to and including psychosis.  I’m not willing to take that risk. I do nothing but take Gabitril now, enough to make me nearly catatonic so I can sleep, but I do sleep better.  We tried to add Klonopin to my med mixture to help me get good rest, but it made me terribly depressed after about four days, so I discontinued.  I called my pdoc about the Klonopin problem, and he said it was not possible for Klonopin to cause depression and urged me to keep using it.  It was his belief that it was the illness causing the depression, but two days after I discontinued Klonopin, I returned to a stable condition. The depression was so severe and so unnecessary, I felt I had no choice.  I’ll try another benzodiazapene, I think, but my SO will probably lobby against it since benzodiazapenes have not been helpful for me for many years. So I still suffer a little from insomnia, but I sleep well far more often than I once did.  When I’m manic and un- or undermedicated, I can stay up all night and not be able to sleep AT ALL until the next night.  The next night I may be able to get an hour or two in.  This can go on for WEEKS.  It’s not normal and NOT SAFE.  I urge you to find a pdoc who takes this problem seriously. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Have you ever had a sleep study done?  It really sounds to me like you have a sleeping disorder.  JMO Nancy permanently into the ether: I throw my hands up! I have been wrestling with this freaking lack of sleep for two years now. People keep telling me the body will sleep when it gets tired enough. I am suspecting this is BS because at least once a week I go 30 or so hours without sleeping, then I only managed to get about four hours. My eyes get so tired it hurts to watch tv, surf the net or read. I have been tried out on Ambien, Sonata, Ristoril, remeron, seroquil, choralhydrate, doxipine/senniquan, some old meds that i can’t remember the name but my grandma has taken for twenty years. Some worked for a day, most never worked. My mother told me that since I was a toddler I was always up prowling around in the wee hours of the morning. Any body take sleep meds that actually allows you to sleep? I have another call into the pdoc, my next actual appointment is coming on the 7th. I know it does more harm than good to get frustrated over lack of sleep but I am sooo tired of not getting enough rest. I also have tried a million different herbal remedies too. A total waste of money. Any ideas?

Response:

BP1. I forgot to mention that.  I don’t know if it is an episode I will haave to wait to talk to pdoc tomorrow if his nurse returns my call. It seems to be worse about two days out of every week.

Response:

I throw my hands up! I have been wrestling with this freaking lack of sleep for two years now. People keep telling me the body will sleep when it gets tired enough. I am suspecting this is BS because at least once a week I go 30 or so hours without sleeping, then I only managed to get about four hours. My eyes get so tired it hurts to watch tv, surf the net or read. I have been tried out on Ambien, Sonata, Ristoril, remeron, seroquil, choralhydrate, doxipine/senniquan, some old meds that i can’t remember the name but my grandma has taken for twenty years.

I am a bit hypo at present.  I’m using Imovane aka Zopiclone for sleep – I don’t think that’s on your list here.  It works like magic for me. I try to go to sleep without it.  After about an hour of tensing and relaxing muscle groups, repeating a word to still thoughts, nose blocking up, rolling over, etc etc – I take half a tablet and 15 mins later I’m asleep. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Some worked for a day, most never worked. My mother told me that since I was a toddler I was always up prowling around in the wee hours of the morning. Any body take sleep meds that actually allows you to sleep? I have another call into the pdoc, my next actual appointment is coming on the 7th. I know it does more harm than good to get frustrated over lack of sleep but I am sooo tired of not getting enough rest. I also have tried a million different herbal remedies too. A total waste of money. Any ideas?

Response:

BP1. I forgot to mention that.  I don’t know if it is an episode I will haave to wait to talk to pdoc tomorrow if his nurse returns my call. It seems to be worse about two days out of every week.

Always the same two days?  Is there anything those days have in common – re your activities, diet, the environment?

Response:

No, they aren’t the same days each week. I wish there was a discernible pattern, but I can’t find one. Regular days of the week I am up until three am, two or three days I am awake until 8am the following day, then sleep for three to four hours.  AND might i add, its not good sleep or restful. But then again sleep is like sex, even bad sex beats no sex. lol

Response:

Clinton Grady: BP1. I forgot to mention that.  I don’t know if it is an episode I will haave to wait to talk to pdoc tomorrow if his nurse returns my call.

I was thinking the same thing that Nome was, but then it occurred to me that when I’m manic I don’t *miss* the sleep, I feel good despite its lack. Really good. Too good. Just my experiences though. — Bob B                                            bobbyb (at) kokomo1.net I’m gonna hit the highway like a battering ram, on a silver black phantom bike, when the metal is hot and the engine is hungry and we’re all about to see the light…  -Meatloaf

Response:

I throw my hands up! I have been wrestling with this freaking lack of sleep for two years now. People keep telling me the body will sleep when it gets tired enough. I am suspecting this is BS because at least once a week I go 30 or so hours without sleeping, then I only managed to get about four hours. My eyes get so tired it hurts to watch tv, surf the net or read. I have been tried out on Ambien, Sonata, Ristoril, remeron, seroquil, choralhydrate, doxipine/senniquan, some old meds that i can’t remember the name but my grandma has taken for twenty years. Some worked for a day, most never worked. My mother told me that since I was a toddler I was always up prowling around in the wee hours of the morning. Any body take sleep meds that actually allows you to sleep? I have another call into the pdoc, my next actual appointment is coming on the 7th. I know it does more harm than good to get frustrated over lack of sleep but I am sooo tired of not getting enough rest. I also have tried a million different herbal remedies too. A total waste of money. Any ideas?

Response:

It isn’t clear from your message; do you have Bipolar Disorder? Could your insomnia be a manifestation of a manic state? I would wonder if a bipolar med like Topamax or Depakote might improve your sleep situation. — Nom dePlume, Ph.D Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000 =====

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I throw my hands up! I have been wrestling with this freaking lack of sleep for two years now. People keep telling me the body will sleep when it gets tired enough. I am suspecting this is BS because at least once a week I go 30 or so hours without sleeping, then I only managed to get about four hours. My eyes get so tired it hurts to watch tv, surf the net or read. I have been tried out on Ambien, Sonata, Ristoril, remeron, seroquil, choralhydrate, doxipine/senniquan, some old meds that i can’t remember the name but my grandma has taken for twenty years. Some worked for a day, most never worked. My mother told me that since I was a toddler I was always up prowling around in the wee hours of the morning. Any body take sleep meds that actually allows you to sleep? I have another call into the pdoc, my next actual appointment is coming on the 7th. I know it does more harm than good to get frustrated over lack of sleep but I am sooo tired of not getting enough rest. I also have tried a million different herbal remedies too. A total waste of money. Any ideas?

Response:

On Wed, 16 Jun 2004 00:31:55 GMT, njs pontificated at length: >They dish this out just like candy. Probably they have some vested >interests, since you can see the pills they give out advertised outside >in their reception room.

What are you seeing are the results of manufacturer detailing… if you listen to the sales pitch, you’ll get literature and free samples for your patients. I’ve had them rotate me through several samples in a row to figure out what works without having to buy a mess of different meds. In some parts of the USA, some innovative health insurance companies have been turning this model on its head. If you listen to the sales pitch, you’ll get free literature about generic drugs and free samples of generic drugs for your patients. — "So many sneakers, not enough feet." http://sneakers.pair.com/

Response:

Hello,   I read "No More Sleepless Nights" and I am struggling.  Two years ago, I went through a divorce, a hysterectomy, and because I was the one who wanted the divorce, I moved out.  I also tried to go off my hormone therapy (big mistake) which only added to my anxiety.  Initially, I knew I had a sleep problem, but didn’t think too much about it.  Then the problem became extreme. I was sleeping 2 to 3 hours a night and would wait to feel tired the next night so that I could sleep.  Oddly, I didn’t become tired like I would have before the severe insomnia began, and I would end up going to bed about the same late hour.  I applied Hauri’s recipe for "conditioned insomnia" and after a few nights, I was doing well, sleeping 6 to 7 hours which is acceptable after 2 – 3.  The problem is that just when I’m starting to feel good and rested, and I think how great it is and I have that lovely feeling of not wanting to get out of my bed, I started thinking "what if I can’t sleep again"? Hence: here I am sleeping 2 to 3 hours again!  I don’t feel depressed except for when I don’t sleep.  My problem that I defeat myself and I don’t know how to stop it.  When I lay in bed and feel myself drifting, I think "Oh God, I’m starting to fall asleep.  What if I don’t?"  I finally get fed up and think the hell with this, and then I sleep, but after I regain my strength, I’m back at worring whether it will stay.  I can go into a deep meditative state, and no matter how little I’ve slept, I just lay there with my brain feeling completely blank like a brick.  Does anyone know what I should do?  Sorry this is so long, I just don’t know how else to say it, and I’m too sleep deprived to try and concentrate on structuring it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Interestingly doctors when not being able to diagnose insomnia, in order to >chase away the insomniac use the >"trial and error" approach. >Anti-depression (x mg) + Ant-anxiety (y mg) + sleep agent/benzo (z mg) >They dish this out just like candy. Probably they have some vested interests, >since you can see the pills >they give out advertised outside in their reception room. >Intitally my doctor started with nortryptaline, then paxil, then effexor (and >was ready for some buspar), and >then i realized i was stupid to listen to her. It did zero difference other >than the placebo effect, which >made me sleep. Ambien and Remeron (which has severe drowsy side-effects) were >the only ones i could believe >in, since they work 99% of the time.Funny thing of remeron, even if i cut a >1/30 of a 15mg pill (as minute as >possible), i will feel sleepy the next 2 days. No wonder its called REM-eron >(for REM sleep). >The greatest observation i had about insomnia is that the stage 3, 4 (deltas) >and REM (stage 5) are the most >important, and the brain compensates these in an insomniac when he does >sleep, with recovery sleep for these >2 stages (in fast-forward motion). Greg Jacobs understands sleep the best, I >have so far come across. >I used to have a cold-sore outbreak once every 2 years when I was a champion >sleeper ( 8 + hours). But >strangely when i slept 3 hours during my nightmarish insomnia days, no >episodes of cold sores, no common >colds, nothing. Just the perfect guy with the perfect BMI (no weight >gain/loss, no hypertension, high blood >sugar etc..). >I followed the Greg Jacobs and Peter Hauri drug free approach and I am >perfectly fine now.  You have to work >hard to make it happen, since no-one but you will worry about your sleep, let >alone the doctor. >insomnia is a real pain in the neck, but its the hardest to treat, mainly >because the more you worry and try >to fall asleep, the more it will keep you awake. >dabeaglefurpi…@yahoo.com wrote: >> "Bob Weight" <bwei…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message ><news:JZ8zc.7868$nY.184009@news20.bellglobal.com>… >> > David, after loosing a job you have held for that length of time, you are >> > bound to be in some sort of shock, even if you don’t realize it. I would >be >> > suprised if you weren’t going through some sort of depressive episode. >> > Trazidone can help, but your dosages are still pretty low – it also takes >> > several weeks before you necessarily see results overall. >> > See your doctor again, and possibly a good counsellor. >> > Bob >> My doctor has discontinued the Trazodone and given me 12.5 mg Paxil, >> as my anxiety and nerves are really getting the better of me and >> keeping me from a restful sleep. The Paxil is supposed to calm me down >> and the Xopiclone is taken before bedtime, for sleeping. But he said >> the it takes a couple of weeks before the Paxil takes effect. It will >> probably seem like months, and I will give up. My nerves and stomach >> are driving me up the wall.

Response:

David, after loosing a job you have held for that length of time, you are bound to be in some sort of shock, even if you don’t realize it. I would be suprised if you weren’t going through some sort of depressive episode. Trazidone can help, but your dosages are still pretty low – it also takes several weeks before you necessarily see results overall. See your doctor again, and possibly a good counsellor. Bob

Response:

"Bob Weight" <bwei…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:JZ8zc.7868$nY.184009@news20.bellglobal.com>… > David, after loosing a job you have held for that length of time, you are > bound to be in some sort of shock, even if you don’t realize it. I would be > suprised if you weren’t going through some sort of depressive episode. > Trazidone can help, but your dosages are still pretty low – it also takes > several weeks before you necessarily see results overall. > See your doctor again, and possibly a good counsellor. > Bob

My doctor has discontinued the Trazodone and given me 12.5 mg Paxil, as my anxiety and nerves are really getting the better of me and keeping me from a restful sleep. The Paxil is supposed to calm me down and the Xopiclone is taken before bedtime, for sleeping. But he said the it takes a couple of weeks before the Paxil takes effect. It will probably seem like months, and I will give up. My nerves and stomach are driving me up the wall.

Response:

Interestingly doctors when not being able to diagnose insomnia, in order to chase away the insomniac use the "trial and error" approach. Anti-depression (x mg) + Ant-anxiety (y mg) + sleep agent/benzo (z mg) They dish this out just like candy. Probably they have some vested interests, since you can see the pills they give out advertised outside in their reception room. Intitally my doctor started with nortryptaline, then paxil, then effexor (and was ready for some buspar), and then i realized i was stupid to listen to her. It did zero difference other than the placebo effect, which made me sleep. Ambien and Remeron (which has severe drowsy side-effects) were the only ones i could believe in, since they work 99% of the time.Funny thing of remeron, even if i cut a 1/30 of a 15mg pill (as minute as possible), i will feel sleepy the next 2 days. No wonder its called REM-eron (for REM sleep). The greatest observation i had about insomnia is that the stage 3, 4 (deltas) and REM (stage 5) are the most important, and the brain compensates these in an insomniac when he does sleep, with recovery sleep for these 2 stages (in fast-forward motion). Greg Jacobs understands sleep the best, I have so far come across. I used to have a cold-sore outbreak once every 2 years when I was a champion sleeper ( 8 + hours). But strangely when i slept 3 hours during my nightmarish insomnia days, no episodes of cold sores, no common colds, nothing. Just the perfect guy with the perfect BMI (no weight gain/loss, no hypertension, high blood sugar etc..). I followed the Greg Jacobs and Peter Hauri drug free approach and I am perfectly fine now.  You have to work hard to make it happen, since no-one but you will worry about your sleep, let alone the doctor. insomnia is a real pain in the neck, but its the hardest to treat, mainly because the more you worry and try to fall asleep, the more it will keep you awake. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -dabeaglefurpi…@yahoo.com wrote: > "Bob Weight" <bwei…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:JZ8zc.7868$nY.184009@news20.bellglobal.com>… > > David, after loosing a job you have held for that length of time, you are > > bound to be in some sort of shock, even if you don’t realize it. I would be > > suprised if you weren’t going through some sort of depressive episode. > > Trazidone can help, but your dosages are still pretty low – it also takes > > several weeks before you necessarily see results overall. > > See your doctor again, and possibly a good counsellor. > > Bob > My doctor has discontinued the Trazodone and given me 12.5 mg Paxil, > as my anxiety and nerves are really getting the better of me and > keeping me from a restful sleep. The Paxil is supposed to calm me down > and the Xopiclone is taken before bedtime, for sleeping. But he said > the it takes a couple of weeks before the Paxil takes effect. It will > probably seem like months, and I will give up. My nerves and stomach > are driving me up the wall.

Response:

Hello everyone.. This is my first attempt at a call for help to this group, but I’m slowly going crazy due to poor sleep. I don’t think I’ve had a proper nights sleep (except for last Tuesday night) in the past two months. I lost my job (in January) after 29 years of continuous working, and now my system "clock" seems to have gone out of whack, now that the normal daily routine has been broken and my body has caught up to the change. I’m not stressed financially as I got a good 2 1/2 years salary in severance. My sleep pattern in the past two months is basically this…I go to bed around 11:00pm, lie there for hours, sleep does not seem to come until after 3:00am. It seems I go straight into REM because I do recall having vivid dreams, yet I’m back awake around 4:30am and can’t get back to sleep. Two weeks ago my doctor prescribed 25mg of Trazodone before bedtime, to help me go to sleep. I seemed to get a little sleep for about three nights out of a week. The dreams seem to have gone but the underlying sleep pattern remains the same, just slightly buffered my the meds. Now, the odd thing is that nights where I was sure I had gotten no sleep, I felt refreshed the next morning, but around late morning it would change to an anxiety which gave me a queasy stomach and took away my appetite. From noon to about 2:30 in the afternoon, the queasy stomach persists and it’s like a juggling act with the stomach and anxiety/depressed feeling and I have sat down and cried, just to get it out and to feel better. I go for long walks in the morning (as advised by my physician) but as soon as my energy drains, I go into the depressed/queasy stomach mode. Now….I am the type that if I get a good sleep, I’m fine. Sure, there are things that worry me and bother me but I always can cope with them when I’m rested. When I’m not rested, I can’t think logically and fears and worries become magnified and turn into anxiety and adrenaline pumping from fatigue. Then my body just fights with itself and I’m exhausted and wired up at the same time. Then I go to bed at night worrying about not being able to sleep and it’s set in motion one more time. I went back to the doctor this past Tuesday and my physical results all checked out fine, so that was a good sign. I told him I still was not sleeping and he said to increase the Trazodone to 50mg and he also gave me Zopiclone (7.5mg) to take before bedtime. I took my first new dosage Tuesday night and fell asleep before my head hit the pillow. I woke up around 6:30am, realizing I’d slept right through. Wow, did I feel better! Even just knowing that I had some relief (Zopiclone) to turn to if I couldn’t sleep. I felt good in the morning and had a great day with positive feelings, hardly any anxiety, although I did run out of gas towards the evening, which is understandable. So I took the same meds at the same time last night, and I did not get to sleep until after about 3:30am. I just cannot put two good nights sleep together. Today I am very discouraged and bummed out. I feel like nothing will get me to sleep properly. I simply cannot understand why the Zopiclone did not get me to sleep as it had the night before. If there are troubling thoughts in your subconscious, will they override the meds ability to do it’s thing? I’m really at my wits end. It’s like I climb out of a whole then fall right back in and I’m going crazy. I’m really not being much help for my wife and son and I don’t want to burden them, even though they are very supportive. I appreciate any help that anyone can provide. I’m getting very desperate. Thanks! David

Response:

> I don’t think I’ve had a proper nights sleep (except for last Tuesday > night) in the past two months. I lost my job (in January) after 29 > years of continuous working, and now my system "clock" seems to have > gone out of whack, now that the normal daily routine has been broken > and my body has caught up to the change. I’m not stressed financially > as I got a good 2 1/2 years salary in severance.

Hi It sounds to me like you need to focus on the trigger for this problem rather than try and cover up the symptoms.  You said yourself, it started after you stopped working and your routine went out the window.  I wonder if you should perhaps focus your energies on establishing a NEW routine – and give your body time to adjust to doing things like eating and sleeping at a regular time every day – simliar to the pattern you had when you were working.  It may be hard, because you’re not going to be doing what you were doing in the past to fill in your day, but it seems that rather than putting on a bandaid, you need to treat the root of the problem, which you pointed out in your opening paragraph. Take a look at the hints on this page that talks about "sleep hygeine" http://talhost.net/sleep/insomnia.htm — Beth in Australia (I am not a qualified medical professional and unless I quote sources anything posted by me is my opinion only and you should always check with your doctor) ============================================= Sleep Disorders Newsgroup FAQ Website http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup archives http://www.talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Tal" <goer…@hotmail.com> wrote in message <news:2itcgoFqo8irU1@uni-berlin.de>… > > I don’t think I’ve had a proper nights sleep (except for last Tuesday > > night) in the past two months. I lost my job (in January) after 29 > > years of continuous working, and now my system "clock" seems to have > > gone out of whack, now that the normal daily routine has been broken > > and my body has caught up to the change. I’m not stressed financially > > as I got a good 2 1/2 years salary in severance. > Hi > It sounds to me like you need to focus on the trigger for this problem > rather than try and cover up the symptoms.  You said yourself, it started > after you stopped working and your routine went out the window.  I wonder if > you should perhaps focus your energies on establishing a NEW routine – and > give your body time to adjust to doing things like eating and sleeping at a > regular time every day – simliar to the pattern you had when you were > working.  It may be hard, because you’re not going to be doing what you were > doing in the past to fill in your day, but it seems that rather than putting > on a bandaid, you need to treat the root of the problem, which you pointed > out in your opening paragraph. > Take a look at the hints on this page that talks about "sleep hygeine" > http://talhost.net/sleep/insomnia.htm

Thank you for your reply. I do not doubt that the sleep problems eventually began due to my change in daily routine. I still go to sleep at the same time every night and get up around the same time every day, then drive my wife to work. I do have a routine which starts my day. But due to the lack of sleep, I run out of energy by mid morning, then the anxiety sets in. But the anxiety comes from worrying about my plight of not sleeping so it became a vicious circle. Those are good hints for "sleep hygeine". I think the key one is to stay out of the bedroom except for when it’s time for bed. This tells your body that it is time for rest, rather than distract you into some other activity you might do there, like reading or watching TV. If I could stop the anxiety/nervous stomach, I could relax and sleep. But it is very difficult.

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Decided to start induction next friday. Right now just don’t feel well enough physically to start it. Eliminating in the meantime some foods I am addicted to though. Going through a rough time with Fibromyalgia, lack of sleep, more pain. Nausea, IBS. Trying to get it under control a bit. Going to look for some vitamins too. Also got a docs appointment and having blood work done before beginning. I have three sons, ages 11, 13, and 17. The youngest and the oldest want to also begin the induction along with me. We picked up a set of scales too. My oldest has put on some extra weight through the winter. My youngest son is 11 and has been overweight for a very long time. Doctors have been asking me to put him on a diet for years. He is very obese.  My 13 year old is skinny as a rail, in shape froms sports, and active. He don’t want to, or really need to do it. Has anyone else tried the Atkins and induction time..etc. As a family? I explained alot to them, and they are for it.  Though the lunches they get at school really suck big time.  So not sure if it will work. I weighed myself earlier. I am 260 lbs 5 foot 5. I want to get to a weight I used to feel comfortable with. 150 lbs.  Though I would love to get back down to 135.  For over a year now, I have weighed at the docs office during visits. 267-270. So the 260 surprised me. Could be from eliminating some sugars, carbs and addictive soda drinks the last couple days? Going to also measure my hips, legs, arms, waist..etc. Thanks for listening….

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@sbcglobal.net says… Decided to start induction next friday. Right now just don’t feel well enough physically to start it. Eliminating in the meantime some foods I am addicted to though. Going through a rough time with Fibromyalgia, lack of sleep, more pain. Nausea, IBS. Trying to get it under control a bit.

I think you’ll find that this WOE will help a LOT with the IBS symptoms — it certainly did in MY case.   Has anyone else tried the Atkins and induction time..etc. As a family? I explained alot to them, and they are for it.  Though the lunches they get at school really suck big time.  So not sure if it will work.

That’s GREAT that they are so willing to do this WITH YOU.  Even if they end up not sticking it out for whatever reason, it sounds like they will be very supportive of YOU.   Take it easy and start when you can.  FTR, I take Zoloft (in the morning), which gives me insomnia so bad that I physically CANNOT go to sleep at night, no matter HOW tired or even EXHAUSTED I am, so I have to take Ambien in order to go to sleep.  It’s not a mental dependency, either — I dropped an Ambien on the carpet once while it and a couple of other things were on their way to my mouth.  I didn’t realize that the Ambien was snuggled peacefully in the carpet instead of my tummy.  8 hours later I was still WIDE AWAKE, despite all my efforts to relax.   I was TOTALLY mystified — and FRUSTRATED — as to why I couldn’t sleep — until someone pointed out the tiny pill on the carpet the next day.  The Zoloft works so well for me, though, that it’s worth it to me, and Ambien does not leave me with a druggy hangover (but OTC melatonin does).  Fibromyalgia is primarily a SLEEP disorder (a surprising tidbit that most people don’t know), so you might want to discuss getting a prescribed sleep aid.   — Saffire 205/176/125 Atkins since 6/14/03 Progress photo:  http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

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Welcome!  There is a lot of great information and wonderful people here that will be able to give you support, advice, recipes, etc. Could be from eliminating some sugars, carbs and addictive soda drinks the last couple days?

It could be.  Most people experience a ‘whoosh’ of some sort during induction because of all the water the body lets go. The first week (or couple of weeks) is going to be the toughest part of getting into the low carb way of life(getting past your carb addiction and everything that goes with it).  Just stay focused on your goal and you’ll get there.  Stick with it, we’ll all be here for you. Coming from a person that has lost a ton of weight(108lbs) then fell off the wagon and gained it all back, and is now back ON the wagon:  Drink lots of water.  I use a straight 80% conversion for the minimum amount of water that I drink a day.  360lbs * .8 = 288 ounces of water a day.  Some people say 50%, others use other methods.  In the past, I noticed that the more water I drank, the better I felt, the better I looked, and the ‘easier’ the weight came off. Get out and active.  If it only means walking around the block once every day, it’ll still be more than you were doing.  Next week pick it up to 2 blocks. Start saving money now… think of all those new clothes you’re going to need to buy in a few months! -Dough

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I take Zoloft (in the morning), which gives me insomnia so bad that I physically CANNOT go to sleep at night, Saffire!   Take the Zoloft   at night, silly girl !    The doctor doesn’t care, it will change your life! I take my Prozac at night with my calcium and after the first month of being new to the drug,  I now sleep like a baby again…  good luck.

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Since you are actually making plans to go on induction, I would suggest you  make your kitchen low-carb.  I am not on the plan with children although my husband is doing it with me.  What helps us the most is to have our cupboards and refrigerator cleared of high carb products, and to have lots of choices of low-carb available if we want a meal or a snack.  Possibly your 13 year old wouldn’t mind having his own special cupboard or shelf in the fridge.  If my children were still at home and I opened the fridge and saw a piece of cake, it would be gone.  After a while, you get used to the temptations and it won’t bother you because you know the benefits.  I also have fibromyalgia and find that prescribed sleep aids do help. Judy   http://www.jlwooddesign.com

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Has anyone else tried the Atkins and induction time..etc. As a family? I explained alot to them, and they are for it.  Though the lunches they get at school really suck big time.  So not sure if it will work.

Can you make their lunches for them?  Or, heck, they’re old enough to make their own. — Michelle Levin http://www.mindspring.com/~lunachick I have only 3 flaws.  My first flaw is thinking that I only have 3 flaws.

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The Zoloft works so well for me, though, that it’s worth it to me, and Ambien does not leave me with a druggy hangover (but OTC melatonin does).  Fibromyalgia is primarily a SLEEP disorder (a surprising tidbit that most people don’t know), so you might want to discuss getting a prescribed sleep aid.  

Saffire, I’m well aware of that particular merry-go-round myself. However, I take my Zoloftat (200 mg) night and have no trouble sleeping…after the first couple of weeks when I first started it, anyway. (G) I have both Fibromyalgia and Lupus, and sleep is ESSENTIAL to my everyday wellbeing. Connie My mind is like a steel…um, whatchamacallit.

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Sunshyne, I also have fibromyalgia and chronic fatigue. I’m hoping against hope that this WOE will help me more than bother me.  I tried reading the South Beach Diet, but Atkins seems much easier to undertstand and follow for me. Let me know how you’re doing with your fibro. I’m in the middle of a bad flare right now, and just started physical therapy which now has me in agony. Hugs, Tigger

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Decided to start induction next friday. Right now just don’t feel well enough physically to start it. Eliminating in the meantime some foods I am addicted to though. Going through a rough time with Fibromyalgia, lack of sleep, more pain. Nausea, IBS. Trying to get it under control a bit. Going to look for some vitamins too. Also got a docs appointment and having blood work done before beginning. I have three sons, ages 11, 13, and 17. The youngest and the oldest want to also begin the induction along with me. We picked up a set of scales too. My oldest has put on some extra weight through the winter. My youngest son is 11 and has been overweight for a very long time. Doctors have been asking me to put him on a diet for years. He is very obese.  My 13 year old is skinny as a rail, in shape froms sports, and active. He don’t want to, or really need to do it. Has anyone else tried the Atkins and induction time..etc. As a family? I explained alot to them, and they are for it.  Though the lunches they get at school really suck big time.  So not sure if it will work. I weighed myself earlier. I am 260 lbs 5 foot 5. I want to get to a weight I used to feel comfortable with. 150 lbs.  Though I would love to get back down to 135.  For over a year now, I have weighed at the docs office during visits. 267-270. So the 260 surprised me. Could be from eliminating some sugars, carbs and addictive soda drinks the last couple days? Going to also measure my hips, legs, arms, waist..etc. Thanks for listening….

Response:

says… The Zoloft works so well for me, though, that it’s worth it to me, and Ambien does not leave me with a druggy hangover (but OTC melatonin does).  Fibromyalgia is primarily a SLEEP disorder (a surprising tidbit that most people don’t know), so you might want to discuss getting a prescribed sleep aid.   Saffire, I’m well aware of that particular merry-go-round myself. However, I take my Zoloftat (200 mg) night and have no trouble sleeping…after the first couple of weeks when I first started it, anyway. (G) I have both Fibromyalgia and Lupus, and sleep is ESSENTIAL to my everyday wellbeing.

You’re the second person that’s said that.  Hmmmm.  I’m thinking in terms of it STILL being strong at night, but maybe it’s more of reaching full strength AFTER 12-18 hours?  I’ll have to look into this!  Thanks to both of you! — Saffire 205/176/125 Atkins since 6/14/03 Progress photo:  http://photos.yahoo.com/saffire333

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All the info and support is great. Helped alot! Not sure yet on what to do with the kids lunches. Their school has a website too, to check out what is available for lunch. They are also on a free lunch program. I think they now have two lines at lunch, one has alot of salad choices in it.  I my oldest what does he usually have for lunch. His reply, chicken nuggets with barbecue sauce. French Fries with ketchup. Then a side of a fruit. Milk. Sometimes he goes to the vending machine to get a sprite. Whew! Went to the grocery store tonight, to pick up a few things. It was wild. I kept checking the carb counts on things. I looked for ketchup with no sugar. I looked and had alot of fun in the veggie department. I too hope the IBS will come under control with the diet. I read that in the book. I used to be so active before the Fibro diagnosis three years ago. I also have a pinched nerve in the lower back, get nerve pain and tingling down the right side. I will have to be careful with exercise. I do walk around the block right now with my dog, I take a cane with me. To walk around the block without one, its very hard. I have a exercise bike available too. I used to do that, then gave up on it. My kids like to ride bikes. They play sports alot too. I just starte the Wellbutrin XL a month ago. I looked up side effects of the med online. One of them is trouble falling asleep. Another is stomach pain. So asking the doc to change it to something else. Or maybe something like a supplement/natural med from the store? Asking the doc for a script of Ambien. Many have suggested it for sleepiing. Got that right too Saffire, Fibro is like a sleeping disorder. That came first, then the pain. Then a car accident also made it all worse. Been going downhill, and putting on so much weight. Working on tomorrow printing some things out to attach to the fride. Like suggested in the book. Continue making a first list of grocery items for the first week.  Maybe a menu plan or something too. Thanks again for everything, its much appreciated. I feel very welcomed here. Loving it so far. Sunshyne

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Frankie is correct…PAT involves placing finger probes on an in-home patient. The equipment can detect microarousals or slight breathing cessations that are too mild for a standard PSG test. Considering my allergies, mild apnea, and complete lack of stage 3/4 sleep, I can only presume that SDB is at work. I’m hopeful the test can prove this.

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It helps if I let you know what I found :s http://www.sleepnet.com/apnea83/messages/731.html — Frankie      (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply) You will also find me on http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea ————————————————————————- FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter http://mail.giantcompany.com "Frankie" <MfrankieY5SP0LE…@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message

news:bn045i$qv4qa$1@ID-182270.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> TAL… I found this > — > Frankie >      (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply) > You will also find me on http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea > ————————————————————————- > FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! > Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter > http://mail.giantcompany.com > "Tal" <sleepbethdisord…@softhome.net> wrote in message > news:bmvm41$qlpe3$2@ID-148111.news.uni-berlin.de… > > > Just curious if anyone here has ever undergone an in-home study using > > ResMed’s > > > PAT (peripheral arterial testing) to help further diagnose SDB. I plan > on > > doing > > > so in the next month to see if it’s able to recognize the "unexplained" > > > arousals from my conventional studies as actual respiratory events. > > > I don’t think I’d recommend the testing as the first course of action > for > > > someone with a sleeping disorder, but after four inconclusive clinical > > studies > > > (mild apnea, no deep sleep, CPAP not working), this may be the best shot > I > > have > > > of proving an underlying ailment. > > there are a number of different "in home studies available, are you able > to > > explain what’s involved in the PAT? > > — > > Beth in Australia > > (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my > > opinion only unless specified otherwise) > > =================== > > FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here > > http://talhost.net/sleep > > Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm > > this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles > > Remove my name to reply

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TAL… I found this — Frankie      (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply) You will also find me on http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea ————————————————————————- FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter http://mail.giantcompany.com "Tal" <sleepbethdisord…@softhome.net> wrote in message

news:bmvm41$qlpe3$2@ID-148111.news.uni-berlin.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Just curious if anyone here has ever undergone an in-home study using > ResMed’s > > PAT (peripheral arterial testing) to help further diagnose SDB. I plan on > doing > > so in the next month to see if it’s able to recognize the "unexplained" > > arousals from my conventional studies as actual respiratory events. > > I don’t think I’d recommend the testing as the first course of action for > > someone with a sleeping disorder, but after four inconclusive clinical > studies > > (mild apnea, no deep sleep, CPAP not working), this may be the best shot I > have > > of proving an underlying ailment. > there are a number of different "in home studies available, are you able to > explain what’s involved in the PAT? > — > Beth in Australia > (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my > opinion only unless specified otherwise) > =================== > FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here > http://talhost.net/sleep > Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm > this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles > Remove my name to reply

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Just curious if anyone here has ever undergone an in-home study using ResMed’s PAT (peripheral arterial testing) to help further diagnose SDB. I plan on doing so in the next month to see if it’s able to recognize the "unexplained" arousals from my conventional studies as actual respiratory events. I don’t think I’d recommend the testing as the first course of action for someone with a sleeping disorder, but after four inconclusive clinical studies (mild apnea, no deep sleep, CPAP not working), this may be the best shot I have of proving an underlying ailment.

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> Just curious if anyone here has ever undergone an in-home study using ResMed’s > PAT (peripheral arterial testing) to help further diagnose SDB. I plan on doing > so in the next month to see if it’s able to recognize the "unexplained" > arousals from my conventional studies as actual respiratory events. > I don’t think I’d recommend the testing as the first course of action for > someone with a sleeping disorder, but after four inconclusive clinical studies > (mild apnea, no deep sleep, CPAP not working), this may be the best shot I have > of proving an underlying ailment.

there are a number of different "in home studies available, are you able to explain what’s involved in the PAT? — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

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Hello people.  I am T1 in last 18 years and I have neen very worried      in last time.       Yes, I had noncontroled pubertet, yes, I have neuropathy (oh, can you      help me also with my constant pain in the legg (as if I’ve had 3 hours      of active sport, that kind of pain, even on the little pressure I feel      it) and retinopathy (severe, flourid, after 12 lasers I can’t see in      the centar of my right eye).       But it started since I started University. Often I wouldn’t awake,      and I was tempting more and more to sleep thru morning.       In the last year or so it became terrible.  I am sleeping up to 16      hours a day!!!  My psy told me I don’t have sleeping disorder and I am      not depressed at all although I am a bit eccentric and I am taking a      minimal dose (50mg)of antipsyhotic Solian (I believe that I can      persuade whole world somehow to became vegetarian, and I belive that      we will find antiageing treatment).  But I am sleeping too much,      really. Psy said it can be related to diabetes, although my hemoglobin      was 6.7 and the doctor was satisfaid because it’s slowly going down.        Yes, in last year or so, because I get angry when I reach even      200mg/dl glicemy I am giving more often injection of insulin, trying      to immitate natural organism and pump (4 times a day 7 injections      (humalog and umulin nph), but I often end up with much more than 7 a      day).  Doc said, althou is strange it’s OK because only like that I      succeded to put hemoglobin under the control.        There is no antisleepeng pills yet, and my psy doesn’t think I am      for amphetamins.       What do you think?  How to cope with pain in the legs, first?  How to      sleep less, and what can help me?       TIA,       Jupiter

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello people.  I am T1 in last 18 years and I have neen very worried      in last time.       Yes, I had noncontroled pubertet, yes, I have neuropathy (oh, can you      help me also with my constant pain in the legg (as if I’ve had 3 hours      of active sport, that kind of pain, even on the little pressure I feel      it) and retinopathy (severe, flourid, after 12 lasers I can’t see in      the centar of my right eye).       But it started since I started University. Often I wouldn’t awake,      and I was tempting more and more to sleep thru morning.       In the last year or so it became terrible.  I am sleeping up to 16      hours a day!!!  My psy told me I don’t have sleeping disorder and I am      not depressed at all although I am a bit eccentric and I am taking a      minimal dose (50mg)of antipsyhotic Solian (I believe that I can      persuade whole world somehow to became vegetarian, and I belive that      we will find antiageing treatment).  But I am sleeping too much,      really. Psy said it can be related to diabetes, although my hemoglobin      was 6.7 and the doctor was satisfaid because it’s slowly going down.        Yes, in last year or so, because I get angry when I reach even      200mg/dl glicemy I am giving more often injection of insulin, trying      to immitate natural organism and pump (4 times a day 7 injections      (humalog and umulin nph), but I often end up with much more than 7 a      day).  Doc said, althou is strange it’s OK because only like that I      succeded to put hemoglobin under the control.        There is no antisleepeng pills yet, and my psy doesn’t think I am      for amphetamins.       What do you think?  How to cope with pain in the legs, first?  How to      sleep less, and what can help me?

Hi Jupiter. Sorry to hear about your troubles, but the sleeping one looks VERY much like a higher than wanted blood sugar level problem to me. If I go high (and for me, that’s anything above I could sleep on a razor blade edge and never think about it. That’s how tired I get, so I ensure I don’t go much above 7 if at all possilbe. If I keep below 7, then my energy levels are excellent and I can (and do) sleep less than 5 hours each day. 5 hours is actually a lot for me, but the FEELING of needing sleep comes almost immediately after dinner when my sugar IS rising too far too fast. That’s when I have one of the hours sleep I get, but I have to eat ONE "Mrs Beav’s" meal each day coz she’s the worlds best chef and I love her cooking:-) Maybe eating food that better matches the profile of your insulins would be a good idea. That way keeping your levels where you want the, isn’t as hard as it is when you eat "mismatched" foods. (Pasta springs to mind:-)) Beav

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I have tried a Resmed machine for 14 days and have supplus to my requirement a Resmed Ultra Mirage Mask + hose complete,  I am in Australia , Adelaide . I have paid for it A$199 .-  please collect it for A$50.- or i can post it for you in Aus. I had sleeping -disorder problems and Sleeping Apnea was suspected after all it is all fixed now and it is all over and i am very pleased. I have the Resmed software as wel.

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> I had sleeping -disorder problems and Sleeping Apnea was suspected after all > it is all fixed now and it is all over and i am very pleased.

what do you mean by it "was suspected after all it is all fixed now"? — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles "Hans Vanvuuren" <jvvuu…@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message

news:nwn_8.472226$o66.1269517@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have tried a Resmed machine for 14 days and have supplus to my requirement > a > Resmed Ultra Mirage Mask + hose complete,  I am in Australia , Adelaide . > I have paid for it A$199 .-  please collect it for A$50.- or i can post it > for you in Aus. > I had sleeping -disorder problems and Sleeping Apnea was suspected after all > it is all fixed now and it is all over and i am very pleased. > I have the Resmed software as wel.

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Just no more problems To complicated to explain "Tal" <beth…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:ahd4uh$mval0$1@ID-148111.news.dfncis.de… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I had sleeping -disorder problems and Sleeping Apnea was suspected after > all > > it is all fixed now and it is all over and i am very pleased. > what do you mean by it "was suspected after all it is all fixed now"? > — > Beth in Australia > =================== > FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here > http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders > this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles > "Hans Vanvuuren" <jvvuu…@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message > news:nwn_8.472226$o66.1269517@news-server.bigpond.net.au… > > I have tried a Resmed machine for 14 days and have supplus to my > requirement > > a > > Resmed Ultra Mirage Mask + hose complete,  I am in Australia , Adelaide . > > I have paid for it A$199 .-  please collect it for A$50.- or i can post it > > for you in Aus. > > I had sleeping -disorder problems and Sleeping Apnea was suspected after > all > > it is all fixed now and it is all over and i am very pleased. > > I have the Resmed software as wel.

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> Just no more problems > To complicated to explain

It might be worthwhile you explaining it to us…. if you had apnea and don’t now, it could help others to know why… what you did/didn’t do….. etc… And also…..if it’s because you had surgery…… how long ago was it? this kind of info could be quite beneficial to other people.  And…..if you had surgery only recently, you may be wise to hang onto the gear for a while because for a lot of people, surgery is only a short term fix… Have you had a sleep study to determin it’s REALLY not a problem anymore? Also…..is the mask brand new . ..or has it been used? – I live in Vic… could do with a spare mask, mine is already almost a year old and i have no way of coming up with $200 to replace it when it becomes necessary..I’d also be very curious to try the Ultra Mirage cause of all the comments i’ve herad about it…..  are you also selling the Resmed machine (which machine is it?) — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles "

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Hi Beth, Thanks for your reply, I had "waking up at night with a shock"   problems , it felt that i had no air.!! and that made us thinking of Apnea. It was so bad that i had every 10 minutes an attack and went to the hospital for it. So sleep test but/and everything was ok. The Doctors could not find anything wrong with me. Had heart test as well, no problems But it has gone by now , compleetly??????? What I have changed is: I do Yogaa now and a lot of breathing exercises that’s  very important. Stopped taking multy vitamins made me over active. Take magnesium on Dr. advice. Still use noise plaster for more air and noise spray. After all it was worrying with pain in my breast in the morning etc. We think it has been a combination of Panic attach/ stomach accid attack The mask is as new only used for 2 weeks the machine was on hire so is back. To be honest i got use to my Resmed friend (machine) and liked it,  so much air  and i felt as strong as a Lion in the morning.!! but i must I admit life is easyer without it. I ask 50 $ and that is a very fair price i think , can be mailed please pay post. Regards Hans "Hans Vanvuuren" <jvvuu…@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message

news:nwn_8.472226$o66.1269517@news-server.bigpond.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have tried a Resmed machine for 14 days and have supplus to my requirement > a > Resmed Ultra Mirage Mask + hose complete,  I am in Australia , Adelaide . > I have paid for it A$199 .-  please collect it for A$50.- or i can post it > for you in Aus. > I had sleeping -disorder problems and Sleeping Apnea was suspected after all > it is all fixed now and it is all over and i am very pleased. > I have the Resmed software as wel.

Response:

> Thanks for your reply, I had "waking up at night with a shock"   problems , > it felt that i had no air.!! and that made us thinking of Apnea. > It was so bad that i had every 10 minutes an attack and went to the hospital > for it. > So sleep test but/and everything was ok.

So you mean they gave you a CPAP machine BEFORE you had a sleep test? — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://www.anchorweb.com.au/sleepdisorders this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique

Okey-dokey. But there is no demonstrable effect from most flavors either, OR colors. Most "artificial flavors and colors" are "artificial" only in name and are found in natural foods as well. There are a few exceptions, but notably truly artificial flavors/colors have been less successful. Even caffeine is shown not to have the kind of effect imagined that is connected to kids running around frenetically, and in fact it is shown to make them sit more quietly!! The term stimulant really isn’t quite accurate regarding caffeine or theobromine in chocolate. It has a range of all very paradoxical effects. But the important research result is the revelation that "junk-food hyperactivity/misbehavior" is strictly a western parental myth, and that only when the parent is told they have consumed such does the parent then simply attribute any activity to that as a way of invaidating children’s desires and motivations all quite disingenuously and cynically. The not- so-secret desire of western parents is to have a reason to deny children merely to feel powerful and official. This is caused by the childhood expectations of power and special status as an adult that are implicit in the western world’s dishonoring and disrespecting of the young child. The adult former-child sees this abuse of children as an entitlement and one that finally confers adulthood on the adult. In other words, it’s founded in nothing but pure neurosis and secret viciousness. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Response:

Ok, I am going to try to work with you here, because underneath some of the abusive tone you take on the NG there are sometimes valuable pieces of information. How if I am simply choosing to provide my children with natural foods and eliminating man made preservatives, colors, etc. and limiting their intake of things that are "empty calories" anyway is this abusive? I don’t tell them "No you can never have candy". I simply do not stock those items in my house. They have lots of choices of good food that is healthy for their growing bodies that also tastes good. Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying here? Nique – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique Okey-dokey. But there is no demonstrable effect from most flavors either, OR colors. Most "artificial flavors and colors" are "artificial" only in name and are found in natural foods as well. There are a few exceptions, but notably truly artificial flavors/colors have been less successful. Even caffeine is shown not to have the kind of effect imagined that is connected to kids running around frenetically, and in fact it is shown to make them sit more quietly!! The term stimulant really isn’t quite accurate regarding caffeine or theobromine in chocolate. It has a range of all very paradoxical effects. But the important research result is the revelation that "junk-food hyperactivity/misbehavior" is strictly a western parental myth, and that only when the parent is told they have consumed such does the parent then simply attribute any activity to that as a way of invaidating children’s desires and motivations all quite disingenuously and cynically. The not- so-secret desire of western parents is to have a reason to deny children merely to feel powerful and official. This is caused by the childhood expectations of power and special status as an adult that are implicit in the western world’s dishonoring and disrespecting of the young child. The adult former-child sees this abuse of children as an entitlement and one that finally confers adulthood on the adult. In other words, it’s founded in nothing but pure neurosis and secret viciousness. Steve That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Response:

That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money.

This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Response:

Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique Okey-dokey. But there is no demonstrable effect from most flavors either, OR colors. Most "artificial flavors and colors" are "artificial" only in name and are found in natural foods as well. There are a few exceptions, but notably truly artificial flavors/colors have been less successful. I have a long list on my refrigerator door (distributed by a major French hospital), of food colorings and their effects, ranging from intestinal disturbances to cancerous. –Lisabell

Don’t believe such things. Ask the FDA, you PAY them for their knowledge, and nobody pays them to lie. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique Okey-dokey. But there is no demonstrable effect from most flavors either, OR colors. Most "artificial flavors and colors" are "artificial" only in name and are found in natural foods as well. There are a few exceptions, but notably truly artificial flavors/colors have been less successful.

I have a long list on my refrigerator door (distributed by a major French hospital), of food colorings and their effects, ranging from intestinal disturbances to cancerous. –Lisabell

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve Oh Phooey, Steve.  Dunk a kid in cotton candy, pepsi and M&M’s during a carnival and watch them spin……it’s quite amusing.

Sorry, that’s just the effect of the carnival, and the special occasion and unfamiliar surroundings. It does it to adults too. I have seen parents give their kids this kind of stuff at bedtime and wonder why they have to peel them from the ceiling.

They feed it to them only on special occasions and carnivals and then pretend that when they take them home they should go right to bed and be able to sleep when they’re still wound-up from the excitement of the night! How stupid. The candy has nothing to do with it. It’s just not me telling you this, it’s the actual research, so get over it!! Parents don’t like to believe it because they have a different agenda involved in their claim. If sugar has nothing to do with behavior & health, then please explain diabetes and hypoglycemia and why all folks suffering from both have their diet looked at first to help control their sugar levels?

Being diabetic myself, I know it is the fat and total calories in the diet that has more effect here. I can run my blood sugar into a dangerous range just as easily with whole-grain pasta as with sugar, and sugars are no longer restricted for diabetics, they must simply be consumed more slowly. They actually run the sugar up more quickly, BUT they also permit it to come down more quickly than more complex carcbohydrates. That’s all. Also, the point must be made that high fat diets have a higher link to causing diabetes, and that sugar and carbohydrate is only a problem when diabetes occurs. The foods that most contribute to diabetes or hypoglycemia being more managable are low fat but unsaturated fat and high protein. If you get those the only remainder that seems to matter is total caloric consumption. So my double espresso in the mornings is for naught???? Sedona

The more we look at caffeine the more it seems to have numerous salutory effects. It seems to prevent Alzheimers, some cancers, and some degenerative conditions. Steve

Response:

Ok, I am going to try to work with you here, because underneath some of the abusive tone you take on the NG there are sometimes valuable pieces of information. How if I am simply choosing to provide my children with natural foods and eliminating man made preservatives, colors, etc. and limiting their intake of things that are "empty calories" anyway is this abusive? I don’t tell them "No you can never have candy". I simply do not stock those items in my house. They have lots of choices of good food that is healthy for their growing bodies that also tastes good. Or am I misinterpreting what you are saying here? Nique

It’s called being overprotective, and it’s abusive. If you can’t tell us how you’re guarding your children from provable harm then you’re falling into the category of being OVER-protective, and thus abusive. And so far, the actual info from the science is that neither sugar nor flavors/colors have any danger that you can justifably worry about. In other words if you keep grabbing people and wrestling them out of harms way when they’re standing in the middle of a cornfield with no "traffic" in sight, they will come to call you a fucking nutcake. A feeling that SOME tractor or truck might be there SOME time is simply not persuasive!! Mentioning your fear is fine, living it is not. Steve – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique Okey-dokey. But there is no demonstrable effect from most flavors either, OR colors. Most "artificial flavors and colors" are "artificial" only in name and are found in natural foods as well. There are a few exceptions, but notably truly artificial flavors/colors have been less successful. Even caffeine is shown not to have the kind of effect imagined that is connected to kids running around frenetically, and in fact it is shown to make them sit more quietly!! The term stimulant really isn’t quite accurate regarding caffeine or theobromine in chocolate. It has a range of all very paradoxical effects. But the important research result is the revelation that "junk-food hyperactivity/misbehavior" is strictly a western parental myth, and that only when the parent is told they have consumed such does the parent then simply attribute any activity to that as a way of invaidating children’s desires and motivations all quite disingenuously and cynically. The not- so-secret desire of western parents is to have a reason to deny children merely to feel powerful and official. This is caused by the childhood expectations of power and special status as an adult that are implicit in the western world’s dishonoring and disrespecting of the young child. The adult former-child sees this abuse of children as an entitlement and one that finally confers adulthood on the adult. In other words, it’s founded in nothing but pure neurosis and secret viciousness. Steve That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Oh Phooey, Steve.  Dunk a kid in cotton candy, pepsi and M&M’s during a carnival and watch them spin……it’s quite amusing.  I have seen parents give their kids this kind of stuff at bedtime and wonder why they have to peel them from the ceiling.  If sugar has nothing to do with behavior & health, then please explain diabetes and hypoglycemia and why all folks suffering from both have their diet looked at first to help control their sugar levels? So my double espresso in the mornings is for naught???? Sedona

Response:

And just an FYI, we like to have chocolate as a treat. I have done some reading and it is thought that chocolate is a good antidepressant. We eat more chocolate in the winter time when the "winter doldrums" set in. (Not to mention I am a chocolate fiend and can’t very well eat chocolate in front of the kids without giving them some too ) Nique – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Wait a minute Steve, I never said we were limiting sugar. I said we limited caffeine, artificial colors and flavors. I know that sugar is not a problem, otherwise, the orange juice would be a problem. So would fruit and any other natural source of sugar. It is not the sugar that we are concerned about it is things like red dyes, preservatives, etc. And no, it has not been proven that those things cause a problem either, but they certainly aren’t something you have to have in your diet either and are not really good for you, so why not get rid of them. Nique Okey-dokey. But there is no demonstrable effect from most flavors either, OR colors. Most "artificial flavors and colors" are "artificial" only in name and are found in natural foods as well. There are a few exceptions, but notably truly artificial flavors/colors have been less successful. Even caffeine is shown not to have the kind of effect imagined that is connected to kids running around frenetically, and in fact it is shown to make them sit more quietly!! The term stimulant really isn’t quite accurate regarding caffeine or theobromine in chocolate. It has a range of all very paradoxical effects. But the important research result is the revelation that "junk-food hyperactivity/misbehavior" is strictly a western parental myth, and that only when the parent is told they have consumed such does the parent then simply attribute any activity to that as a way of invaidating children’s desires and motivations all quite disingenuously and cynically. The not- so-secret desire of western parents is to have a reason to deny children merely to feel powerful and official. This is caused by the childhood expectations of power and special status as an adult that are implicit in the western world’s dishonoring and disrespecting of the young child. The adult former-child sees this abuse of children as an entitlement and one that finally confers adulthood on the adult. In other words, it’s founded in nothing but pure neurosis and secret viciousness. Steve That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. This sort of concern is based on what has now been proven to be an old wive’s tale. The notion that sugar alters child behavior, fussiness, or health has been entirely disproven! However, the REPORT of the child consuming sugar is shown to cause parents to blame any difficulty or trait of the child’s behavior on sugar, even IF the child really did NOT eat sugar, and even if other people think the child’s behavior is perfectly NORMAL! In other words, it was all a self-fulfilling perception of parents, and not any actual truth about sugar. Steve

Response:

I have more questions than answers for you, but perhaps some things to keep in mind.  Does she have an established routine during her waking hours?

It is not a regular routine, but for the most part it is a routine. It will vary some, but as far as the daily flow of things yes.  Is she on any medication that could supress the regular sleep cycle?

No. no meds at all  Have you tried a fan or other soothing noise item in her room? (I’m not a deep sleeper at all and neither is my daughter)

We have not tried a lot yet, we are just trying to get started looking for ways to help. I am going to try some soothing noise. Thanks for that suggestion.  What kind of diet does she have?

That is one thing that we are pretty controlled about. None of my children eat lots of sweets or ANY caffeine at all. They do not get candies of any kind except on special occasions. We give them milk and fruit juices like OJ, etc. We avoid artifical colors and flavors as much as possible as well. Her diet at this point is as controlled as we can manage affordable with time and money. Even in small amount she may be super sensitive to sugars or caffeine or even spicy foods. How long between her last meal and bedtime?

This depends on when we get her to bed, but we usually eat around 7pm Does she get a warm bath before bed? (trying thowing some chamoile flowers directly in the tub).

Have not tried this, but will include that in my listof things to try.  Does she breath properly at night? (I would seriously check this while she is sleeping, because she may be forgetting to breath and waking herself up, in which case you are dealing with a treatable sleeping disorder).  Does she have the necessary communication skills to learn from you how to deep breathe to help calm herself down?

She can communicate very well.  The Ped did ask me to watch her breathing patterns at night when she is sleeping. I have not yet seen any irregularities that make me think there is a problem there. But I will continue to monitor that.  Finally, if your pediatrician didn’t ask these questions of you, then you need a new

doctor. LOL Agreed, but Ped has been very thorough, I did leave a lot of detail out of my post, that now I see generated more questions. Good luck, Sedona Mommy to Kai (10) and Tori (2)

Thanks so much for your suggestions. Nique

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I am looking for some help with my 3 year old. After much discussion with our Ped. we have determined that many of her behavior issues (long story for another post), are related to her erratic sleep patterns. She is a super active three year old. We have a difficult time getting her to settle down and go to sleep at night. It is sometimes 11:00p or later before we can even get her to lay down quietly. She has all but given up her daytime naps as well. Then many nights she does not sleep straight through and then is usually up as early as 6:30 or 7:00. This is contributing to lots of behavior issues with her. Normally I would not be concerned, but it is clear when you deal with her, that she is frustrated as well. You can see that she cannot get control of her own behavior even when she wants to. She gets frustrated easily with simple tasks and then we end up with "toddler meltdown". I hate seeing her end up in a crying fit because she cannot get her shirt over her head without help. Even when you try to calm her and let her know it is OK, it is clear that she is struggling. The Ped has indicated that the lack of sleep is contributing to this. OK now after that long discussion, here is my dilemma. How do I go about modifying her sleep patterns? She is so strong willed that she is not going to simply lay down because we request that she do so. We have tried laying down with her and getting her to sleep with us, I am not sure what else to try here to help her get more sleep. It usually takes her just physically exhausting herself to the point of meltdown before she will lie down. I really want to find something positive here to try to help her. Thanks for suggestions in advance, Nique

I have more questions than answers for you, but perhaps some things to keep in mind.  Does she have an established routine during her waking hours?  Is she on any medication that could supress the regular sleep cycle?  Have you tried a fan or other soothing noise item in her room? (I’m not a deep sleeper at all and neither is my daughter)  What kind of diet does she have? Even in small amount she may be super sensitive to sugars or caffeine or even spicy foods.  How long between her last meal and bedtime?  Does she get a warm bath before bed? (trying thowing some chamoile flowers directly in the tub).  Does she breath properly at night? (I would seriously check this while she is sleeping, because she may be forgetting to breath and waking herself up, in which case you are dealing with a treatable sleeping disorder).  Does she have the necessary communication skills to learn from you how to deep breathe to help calm herself down?  Finally, if your pediatrician didn’t ask these questions of you, then you need a new doctor. Good luck, Sedona Mommy to Kai (10) and Tori (2)

Response:

I am looking for some help with my 3 year old. After much discussion with our Ped. we have determined that many of her behavior issues (long story for another post), are related to her erratic sleep patterns. She is a super active three year old. We have a difficult time getting her to settle down and go to sleep at night. It is sometimes 11:00p or later before we can even get her to lay down quietly. She has all but given up her daytime naps as well. Then many nights she does not sleep straight through and then is usually up as early as 6:30 or 7:00. This is contributing to lots of behavior issues with her. Normally I would not be concerned, but it is clear when you deal with her, that she is frustrated as well. You can see that she cannot get control of her own behavior even when she wants to. She gets frustrated easily with simple tasks and then we end up with "toddler meltdown". I hate seeing her end up in a crying fit because she cannot get her shirt over her head without help. Even when you try to calm her and let her know it is OK, it is clear that she is struggling. The Ped has indicated that the lack of sleep is contributing to this. OK now after that long discussion, here is my dilemma. How do I go about modifying her sleep patterns? She is so strong willed that she is not going to simply lay down because we request that she do so. We have tried laying down with her and getting her to sleep with us, I am not sure what else to try here to help her get more sleep. It usually takes her just physically exhausting herself to the point of meltdown before she will lie down. I really want to find something positive here to try to help her. Thanks for suggestions in advance, Nique

Response:

I havent had a good nights sleep for years and Im getting exhausted. thanks

Response:

Go talk to your doctor about getting an appointment at a sleep clinic. On Tue, 05 Feb 2002 05:44:59 GMT, "BuGsY" <Souldo…@hotmail.com> wrote: >I havent had a good nights sleep for years and Im getting exhausted. thanks

– Remove first ’s’ and last ‘m’ from email address when replying.

Response:

Re: Anyone tell if the c-pap is a good idea? > I havent had a good nights sleep for years and Im getting exhausted.

thanks Well, that all depends what you want it for…. for example….as a paperweight – it probably wouldn’t be very convienient because it’s too big If you suffer insomnia, it probably won’t work any better than it would as a paperweight. If you’re just restless in your sleep, it probably wont’ help much either If you don’t go to bed early enough and don’t get enought sleep…..same If however you have a sleeping disorder called Sleep Apnea….THEN it may help…… but to find out, you need to get a sleep study done……to get that done, you need to get your regular doctor to refer you to a sleep specialist. Regardless, if you’re haveing major sleep problems of any kind, you really need to see a certified sleep doctor P.S.  It always pays to be more specific when asking questions.  Let us know what your problems/symptoms are, what you’ve tried to do previously to solve the problem etc.  It helps people greatly when it comes to replying to you and answering your questions. Beth in Australia )

Response:

I assume from this list that you believe that any drug that increases brain GABA levels or mimics that neurotransmitter will do what benzos do. They don’t. And the probable reason is that there is a lot of evidence that most of us with anxiety/panic disorders have fewer than "normal" numbers of benzodiazepine receptors. Just adding extra GABA is a bit like filling the gas tank to compensate for the spark plugs removed in my earlier analogy. No matter how much gas you pour into the tank, the engine will still run rough. That’s an intriguing idea.  It does seem plausible.  I do recall my entire life I have been easily agitated, and have always felt that there was something extremely different about me from other people.

References to papers about folk with anxiety disorders having reduced benzo binding sites are listed in the Addiction v Dependency article under, from  memory,  [5]. Thanks for the info. Drew

I see from one of your replies to Philip that you’re Canadian. Unfortunately, the anti benzo agitators are targeting Canadian doctors at the moment. So far they’ve managed to con the provincial governments of Alberta, BC, and Saskatchewan to pay for the distribution of their literature to all GPs in the province.  So your ability to get benzodiazepine prescriptions in the future may be at risk.  :-( Ian

Response:

They are wrong. You can become dependent to them, but not addicted. To save bandwidth I won’t repost something I wrote a few weeks ago on the difference between dependency and addiction and why you can’t be addicted to benzos, at least not chemically-psychologically is another matter. However, I’m sure you will easily find it by doing a Goggle newsgroup search for subject " Benzos:  Addiction v Dependence  (WARNING – long) "

That’s a very good article.  I’ll print that out and show it to my doc, see what he has to say about it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.  Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal.  I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do.  Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? Antidepressants can be just as effective, but I suspect that you’ve been started on too high a dose, suffered intolerable side effects as a result and understandable been turned off them.

Actually, I was on zoloft for 6 months, during which time the only notable effect was to make me depressed and sluggish.  I was on paxil for 3+ months, during which time (unbeknownst to me at the time) I became a danger to myself and others with my erratic driving (I am usually a very cautious driver), and woke up each and every morning feeling like I was about to die. The effexor that the pdoc prescribed me was the lowest dose possible (37.5mg), and it put psychotic thoughts into my head within a few days, plus it made me feel like I was on speed, and like my head was about to explode. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful.  Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). Most of these are anti seizure meds which have little if any effect on anxiety. Some, for example, vigabatrin can produce psychosis as a side effect. I assume from this list that you believe that any drug that increases brain GABA levels or mimics that neurotransmitter will do what benzos do. They don’t. And the probable reason is that there is a lot of evidence that most of us with anxiety/panic disorders have fewer than "normal" numbers of benzodiazepine receptors. Just adding extra GABA is a bit like filling the gas tank to compensate for the spark plugs removed in my earlier analogy. No matter how much gas you pour into the tank, the engine will still run rough.

That’s an intriguing idea.  It does seem plausible.  I do recall my entire life I have been easily agitated, and have always felt that there was something extremely different about me from other people. Thanks for the info. Drew

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –  if two particular SSRIs have given me adverse effects and/or not helped the initial symptoms, would it even be worth it to try the other SSRIs?  My inclination would be to stay away from that particular class of medications, but the pdoc wants me to try another one (Celexa). Is this wise? Celexa is supposed to be the SSRI with the lowest side effect profile. I know several people who had bad experiences with two or even three SSRI’s and benefited greatly from another one but there is no way of telling whether this will aplly to you too. If a benzo works well enough for you that is what you should take IMHO. But if you want top explore the antidepressants I’d thinkl there would be no harm in trying Celexa (starting at 5 mg and raising the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg) or possibly a TCA like imipramine. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Well, there you are. And I said earlier:  Find another doctor who is not benzophobic. And I’ll say it again: "Find another doctor who is not benzophobic" ) Yes, I am aware of the dependence factor, which is why I’ve been very sparing in my benzo usage.  Do you happen to know what would be a reasonably safe upper limit of use in terms of quantity and frequency? No. It varies. If you take a benzo *as needed* there is little chance of getting dependent. At a regular daily dose you will get dependent. But I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s not so bad to be dependent on a med if the risk/benefit ratio is positive. I have been taking benzos for more than 32 years (and had some periods of being off them too) and I fully expect to take them for the rest of my life and I don’t wory about dependence because Xanax enables me to live a more or less *normal* life or at least a life I fnd most rewarding and plan to continue for a looooong time )  Currently I’ve been living through some rather hellish times, to keep my benzo use down to 2 or 3 times a month, which I know is very infrequent. That is *nothing* really. This is not the right way to take benzos and you make yourself suffer more than necessary. Find another doc.

Yeah, you are right.  Unfortunately in Canada, they go to great lengths to try and prevent people from "doctor shopping".  There is this one doctor that I’ve seen a few times though that might help.  He was the one who initially prescribed a small amount of Ativan.  He’s a gp, and I thought a pdoc might be more useful for my present situation, but apparently not. Drew

Response:

 if two particular SSRIs have given me adverse effects and/or not helped the initial symptoms, would it even be worth it to try the other SSRIs?  My inclination would be to stay away from that particular class of medications, but the pdoc wants me to try another one (Celexa).  Is this wise?

Celexa is supposed to be the SSRI with the lowest side effect profile. I know several people who had bad experiences with two or even three SSRI’s and benefited greatly from another one but there is no way of telling whether this will aplly to you too. If a benzo works well enough for you that is what you should take IMHO. But if you want top explore the antidepressants I’d thinkl there would be no harm in trying Celexa (starting at 5 mg and raising the dose in weekly increments of 5 mg) or possibly a TCA like imipramine. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.

Well, there you are. And I said earlier:  Find another doctor who is not benzophobic.

And I’ll say it again: "Find another doctor who is not benzophobic" ) Yes, I am aware of the dependence factor, which is why I’ve been very sparing in my benzo usage.  Do you happen to know what would be a reasonably safe upper limit of use in terms of quantity and frequency?

No. It varies. If you take a benzo *as needed* there is little chance of getting dependent. At a regular daily dose you will get dependent. But I wouldn’t worry about it. It’s not so bad to be dependent on a med if the risk/benefit ratio is positive. I have been taking benzos for more than 32 years (and had some periods of being off them too) and I fully expect to take them for the rest of my life and I don’t wory about dependence because Xanax enables me to live a more or less *normal* life or at least a life I fnd most rewarding and plan to continue for a looooong time )  Currently I’ve been living through some rather hellish times, to keep my benzo use down to 2 or 3 times a month, which I know is very infrequent.

That is *nothing* really. This is not the right way to take benzos and you make yourself suffer more than necessary. Find another doc. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder.  I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it.  So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos.  All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway).  They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive,

They are wrong. You can become dependent to them, but not addicted. To save bandwidth I won’t repost something I wrote a few weeks ago on the difference between dependency and addiction and why you can’t be addicted to benzos, at least not chemically-psychologically is another matter. However, I’m sure you will easily find it by doing a Goggle newsgroup search for subject " Benzos:  Addiction v Dependence  (WARNING – long) " and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs.  Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation? Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.  Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks.

I don’t know if your doctor is accepting kick-backs, but I’m not surprised that he is a benzo-phob. Unfortunately, more and more doctors are being brainwashed into believing that benzos are some evil concoction. There is quite a worldwide campaign being mounted by an ignorant few to have benzos completely banned. Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs.  Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania.  Are these effects common?

Depression – no worse anxiety – yes, initially, until the brain adapts which is why you should start on a low dose and only increase by small increments. sexual dysfunction – yes, but there are things you can do to lessen this. Do a Goggle search of back posts using " sexual dysfunction " as the key words. mania – not common, but it does happen. It has happened to me with every SSRI I’ve tried. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD.  The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".  Is this guy incompetent?  I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside?

It shows he is human. Buspar may be 60-80% effective, but if those stats are born out by his experience I can understand why he has abandoned it. However, you, not he, is ultimately in charge of your health, so if you want to try it then insist he writes you a prescription, or go elsewhere. So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea.  Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.  

No, none of the antidepressants either increase or decrease neurotransmitters levels in the brain except for the initial few weeks. Levels drop back to baseline about the time that the med fully kicks in. The main effect of antidepressants is to down-regulate (reduce) the number and sensitivity of some receptors, which is a bit like reducing your car’s engine power by removing a sparkplug or two. As I understand it, this is what benzos do.  

No. Benzos increase the effectiveness of receptors for the neurotransmitter GABA. GABA is the brain’s main inhibitory neurotransmitter. That is it (mostly) slows down the "firing" rate of affected neurons. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.  Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal.  I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do.  Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about?

Antidepressants can be just as effective, but I suspect that you’ve been started on too high a dose, suffered intolerable side effects as a result and understandable been turned off them.   I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful.  Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?).

Most of these are anti seizure meds which have little if any effect on anxiety. Some, for example, vigabatrin can produce psychosis as a side effect. I assume from this list that you believe that any drug that increases brain GABA levels or mimics that neurotransmitter will do what benzos do. They don’t. And the probable reason is that there is a lot of evidence that most of us with anxiety/panic disorders have fewer than "normal" numbers of benzodiazepine receptors. Just adding extra GABA is a bit like filling the gas tank to compensate for the spark plugs removed in my earlier analogy. No matter how much gas you pour into the tank, the engine will still run rough. This group seems to be pretty active, and full of knowledgeable people. Thanks for any information you can give! Drew

Good luck Ian

Response:

 Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation?

yepers Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.

no-not really years ago the pharm co’s offered incentives for high script writtings but this has changed over the past 7 years or so-the problem is the education provided to the docs from detail salespersons, studies that are done by pharm co’s and the public opinion of past years experiences with gluttunous over prescribing of benzos by gp’s internists and other inexperienced docs Are these effects common?

yeppers reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD.  The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".

he is correct-it sadly has a poor track record since it acts actually like a weak ssri Is this guy incompetent?

most are I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside?

these studies are flawed his expereince in this area is most likely correct-his benzophobia is incorrect t I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.

well sort of—-they need to be used more efficiently in fact using ad meds does reduce the level of these amines n the brain by creating a saturation of them at first (hence the nasty side effects) and then more receptors to absorb the higher levels which then reduces the total free amount of it as well as enables your body to use them with greater efficacy-the drugs also stimuate parallel amine systems to modulate like variant forms of epinephrine, 5ht, dopamine, endorphines, and a host of other less well known amines As I understand it, this is what benzos do

nope benzo receptors are ganged together with gaba receptors which act as a magnet for neurotransmitters like gaba and possibly some benzo-like amines yet undiscovered. By enhancing inhibitory effects of gaba one reduces sprurious firing of excititory nature reducing anxiety without reducing consciousnes or awareness can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.

then you need to find a doc willing to do what’s best for you insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?).

remeron, zopiclone, zoplidem, gabatril and gabapentin can be used for augmenting sleep-gabapentin can be used forever, remeron is also safe  the novel benzo sleep drugs are safe but had best be used for short periods due to tolerance-even though studies indicate that none builds-it is still too early to make this conclusion proper sleep hygiene, better habituations, and anxiety reduction help sleep better-the tca’s and remeron are a good choice if your not sensitive to them. Melatonin is another product that may help LM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder.  I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it.  So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos.  All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway).  They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive, and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs.  Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation? Your doctor is *benzophobic* which basically means that he didn’t do his homework and mistakenly thinks that benzos cause *addiction* instead of *dependence*. The funny thing is that SSRI’s also produce dependence…

Yes, I suspected as much.  In fact, I’ve heard that stopping SSRIs abruptly can be as bad as, or worse than benzo withdrawl.  Having gone through weeks of hell after stopping paxil even after tapering the dose for several weeks, I can believe how this might be true. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.  Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks. I don’t think there is a conspiracy of corrupt doctors. I do believe that there are a disconcerting lot of lazy ones who just read what the pharmaceutical companies offer them abd then obviously arrive at the wrong conclusions (if they do more than mechanically hand out SSRI’s that is). Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs.  Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania.  Are these effects common? Yes but they don’t have to occur. Antidepressants always worsen anxiety and add some idiotic side effects of their own in the beginning. These should be temporary but they can scare people off their meds: after all they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Doctors should warn their patients of initial problems. Moreover, many doctors start their anxiety patients out on a much to high dose and then raise that too quickly which makes for a bumpy rode. *Starting low and going slow* helps a lot as does havinga benzo on the side to take *as needed*.

I know quite well the horrible initial effects (I ended up in the hospital while initially taking paxil, with some horrible effects that the doc never told me about), but the manic (and other) effects I speak of were persistent, and continued during the entire 3+ month period I was taking paxil.  Now that I look back on it, and realize how incredibly dangerous the behaviour was that I engaging in, I realize that I am *extremely* lucky to be alive today.  At the time, unfortunately, my behaviour seemed completely normal and rational to me.  With zoloft, it was mainly a mild steady depression for 6 months.  After a few days of effexor giving me major ups and downs, and wanting to harm myself and others during the down periods, I promptly decided that I wasn’t going to go through that again. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD.  The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".  Is this guy incompetent?  I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside? Buspar is a weak med which can be effective for some with mild to moderate

GAD. Yes, I’d say I have mild to moderate GAD.  It can get extreme at times, but now that I have been practicing relaxation techniques, I haven’t become incapacitated because of it lately. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea.  Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain. These neurotransmiters and opthers should be optimally available at the places where they are needed. In practice downregulating of receptors may well reduce the overall levels of the implicated neurotransmitters although the *whole mechanism* is really largely unknown. As I understand it, this is what benzos do. Benzos bind to benzodiazepine receptors which are "attractive" to GABA, the neurotransmitter which is influenced by benzos. It is all much more complicated really, were it only because intervention in the behavior of one neurotransmitter will set off a chain reaction or at leas with have influence on the behavior of other neurotransmitters. A lot of research will still have to be done to properly understand the working of the brain and the etiology of anxiety disorders.

Yes, I shouldn’t let myself get lured into thinking that the whole system is comprehensible, no matter how much I’ve read about it.  I suppose trial and error is the best we’ve got at this time.  One thing I’d like to know, however, is that if two particular SSRIs have given me adverse effects and/or not helped the initial symptoms, would it even be worth it to try the other SSRIs?  My inclination would be to stay away from that particular class of medications, but the pdoc wants me to try another one (Celexa).  Is this wise? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Yep, they work for most (not all) people.  Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal.  I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do.  Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? No. IMO benzos are the best and the safest meds around, also for long term medication. They *do* cause dependence (meaning your body will adjust to the presence of the benzo which consquently shouldn’t be discontinued suddenly by only by way of a slow taper in order to prevent or minimize possible withdrawal symptoms which is easy for some and more difficult for others). Find another doctor who is not benzophobic.

Yes, I am aware of the dependence factor, which is why I’ve been very sparing in my benzo usage.  Do you happen to know what would be a reasonably safe upper limit of use in terms of quantity and frequency?  Currently I’ve been living through some rather hellish times, to keep my benzo use down to 2 or 3 times a month, which I know is very infrequent.  It would be good to have a more solid understanding of what it takes to start getting into benzo dependence territory. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful.  Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). Buspirone = Buspar. I think you’d be best off with a benzo. For sleep (if really necessary, often insomnia is part of an anxiety disorder and goes away when the disorder is properly treated): low dose Remeron, low dose amitryptiline or Trazadone. Benzos are less suitable because usually one develops tolerance to their sedative effect, so they should not be used as sleeping aids otherwise than for a short while.

Oh yes, I’ve had a *MAJOR* sleeping disorder for most of my life.  As far back as I can remember at any rate.  I have gotten it 80% under control with the occasional use of melatonin, which is so far the only thing that has ever worked for me, and I’ve tried pretty much everything I could get my hands on for helping with sleep.  Benzos, interestingly don’t particularly help for sleep with me.  In fact, if I am really anxious, and don’t want to do anything because of it, taking a benzo actually motivates me, and gives me energy to move around and do stuff. Thanks for the info. Drew

Response:

Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder.  I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it.  So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos.  All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway).  They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive, and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs.  Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation?

Your doctor is *benzophobic* which basically means that he didn’t do his homework and mistakenly thinks that benzos cause *addiction* instead of *dependence*. The funny thing is that SSRI’s also produce dependence… Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.  Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks.

I don’t think there is a conspiracy of corrupt doctors. I do believe that there are a disconcerting lot of lazy ones who just read what the pharmaceutical companies offer them abd then obviously arrive at the wrong conclusions (if they do more than mechanically hand out SSRI’s that is). Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs.  Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania.  Are these effects common?

Yes but they don’t have to occur. Antidepressants always worsen anxiety and add some idiotic side effects of their own in the beginning. These should be temporary but they can scare people off their meds: after all they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Doctors should warn their patients of initial problems. Moreover, many doctors start their anxiety patients out on a much to high dose and then raise that too quickly which makes for a bumpy rode. *Starting low and going slow* helps a lot as does havinga benzo on the side to take *as needed*. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD.  The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".  Is this guy incompetent?  I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside?

Buspar is a weak med which can be effective for some with mild to moderate GAD. So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea.  Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.

These neurotransmiters and opthers should be optimally available at the places where they are needed. In practice downregulating of receptors may well reduce the overall levels of the implicated neurotransmitters although the *whole mechanism* is really largely unknown. As I understand it, this is what benzos do.

Benzos bind to benzodiazepine receptors which are "attractive" to GABA, the neurotransmitter which is influenced by benzos. It is all much more complicated really, were it only because intervention in the behavior of one neurotransmitter will set off a chain reaction or at leas with have influence on the behavior of other neurotransmitters. A lot of research will still have to be done to properly understand the working of the brain and the etiology of anxiety disorders. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.

Yep, they work for most (not all) people.  Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal.  I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do.  Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about?

No. IMO benzos are the best and the safest meds around, also for long term medication. They *do* cause dependence (meaning your body will adjust to the presence of the benzo which consquently shouldn’t be discontinued suddenly by only by way of a slow taper in order to prevent or minimize possible withdrawal symptoms which is easy for some and more difficult for others). Find another doctor who is not benzophobic. I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful.  Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?).

Buspirone = Buspar. I think you’d be best off with a benzo. For sleep (if really necessary, often insomnia is part of an anxiety disorder and goes away when the disorder is properly treated): low dose Remeron, low dose amitryptiline or Trazadone. Benzos are less suitable because usually one develops tolerance to their sedative effect, so they should not be used as sleeping aids otherwise than for a short while. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

This is all bull. You are most likely a good pay for your doctor. It depends of the country. If you live in USor Canada this could be very close to the truth. Do you know that your doctor may legally indorse some of the medications and have a cut ? Have you asked him if he is affiliated with any pharma company ? Do you know that when they go to a conference all the bills are paid by the PAXIL or similar multy billion pharma people ? If you read the history of the benzos you will see that the a same cocksuckers  wrote more then 60 MILLION prescriptions the first year the valium was introduced? Why did not they question the long term effect of the benzos then ? They did not give a shit ! Do not live in denial, and better face the facts. After the pattent expired in 14 years do you know what ? About 6000 new benzos were introdesed on the market. Everybody was eager to cash in ! In the market war just a "few hundred survived"…. and hit the jackpot Have you watched this disgusting paxil commercial ? Do you know that the pharma companies are the top adds spender ? The same is happening now with these horrific serotonin boosters. May be in 20 years if a medical doctor gives you a prescription he/she may end up in jail. But now they have a very good approach. TRIAL AND ERROR. I have not seen a profession that can give you such a irresponsibility. If you ask me there is nothing wrong with the benzos. At least they will help you with the pain and suffering. See a good psychologist, not psychiatrist if you can afford it. Why most medical plans let you see a psychiatrist but not a psychologist ? They prescribe medications and it is good for the western economy. Ohh man, I have been in this disgusting situation for about 6 years. I live in Vancouver, BC and do you know what ? We have a shortage of medical doctors and nurses and even if you want to see a shrink you have to wait about 6 months if you are not psychotic. If you are, then they will "take care of you"  just because of the fact you might be in danger for the society not because anybody cares. Let me step a few lines back. Why we in Canada have a shortage of doctors ? I have a simple answer. They are lured by the US. they are qualified to work in the US and to make 3-5 times more money. So convenient for whoever has $$$$. Have you ever wondered  how the sufferers in the so not so not well developed countries are treated ? Who cares, we have enough pain … So there you go, you become a victim of the same arroach. According to the statistic manual anxiety is a completely treatable disorder and about 80% recover, the same is with depression. What a joke. This is a billion dollar industry. Forget all this antidepressants junkies and try to find an alternative approach – yoga, meditation etc. Say good bye to salt and sugar . Vit B complex, Ca-Mg ( mega) and mega Vit C may help a bit. Just understand the mechanics of the disorder and face yourself. Serotonin deficiency is a theory, yes it’s a THEORY ! How come that your level of serotonin was not tested ? I am sick and tired of all the ignorance and propaganda. They have a proverb in China: If you can not find it in yourself where will you go for it ? Exercise your freedom of choice and judgement and do not become a victim of a brain washed society. Amen Wishing you all the good luck. PS. I am speking from the possition of a victim of  Paxil and numerous other trial and error shit. I am responsible for myself and I will refuse to be a victim of somebodies theory. ion for SSRIs.  Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this situation? Your doctor is *benzophobic* which basically means that he didn’t do his homework and mistakenly thinks that benzos cause *addiction* instead of *dependence*. The funny thing is that SSRI’s also produce dependence… Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.  Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks. I don’t think there is a conspiracy of corrupt doctors. I do believe that there are a disconcerting lot of lazy ones who just read what the pharmaceutical companies offer them abd then obviously arrive at the wrong conclusions (if they do more than mechanically hand out SSRI’s that is). Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs.  Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania.  Are these effects common? Yes but they don’t have to occur. Antidepressants always worsen anxiety and add some idiotic side effects of their own in the beginning. These should be temporary but they can scare people off their meds: after all they are supposed to make you feel better, not worse. Doctors should warn their patients of initial problems. Moreover, many doctors start their anxiety patients out on a much to high dose and then raise that too quickly which makes for a bumpy rode. *Starting low and going slow* helps a lot as does havinga benzo on the side to take *as needed*. Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD.  The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".  Is this guy incompetent?  I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside? Buspar is a weak med which can be effective for some with mild to moderate GAD. So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea.  Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain. These neurotransmiters and opthers should be optimally available at the places where they are needed. In practice downregulating of receptors may well reduce the overall levels of the implicated neurotransmitters although the *whole mechanism* is really largely unknown. As I understand it, this is what benzos do. Benzos bind to benzodiazepine receptors which are "attractive" to GABA, the neurotransmitter which is influenced by benzos. It is all much more complicated really, were it only because intervention in the behavior of one neurotransmitter will set off a chain reaction or at leas with have influence on the behavior of other neurotransmitters. A lot of research will still have to be done to properly understand the working of the brain and the etiology of anxiety disorders. I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition. Yep, they work for most (not all) people.  Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal.  I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do.  Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? No. IMO benzos are the best and the safest meds around, also for long term medication. They *do* cause dependence (meaning your body will adjust to the presence of the benzo which consquently shouldn’t be discontinued suddenly by only by way of a slow taper in order to prevent or minimize possible withdrawal symptoms which is easy for some and more difficult for others). Find another doctor who is not benzophobic. I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful.  Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). Buspirone = Buspar. I think you’d be best off with a benzo. For sleep (if really necessary, often insomnia is part of an anxiety disorder and goes away when the disorder is properly treated): low dose Remeron, low dose amitryptiline or Trazadone. Benzos are less suitable because usually one develops tolerance to their sedative effect, so they should not be used as sleeping aids otherwise than for a short while. Philip

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Hi all, I’m seeking information about my apparent anxiety disorder.  I have been diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorder, and have tried various meds for it.  So far they have all worsened my condition tremendously, except for benzos.  All of the doctors that I have seen are extremely reluctant to prescribe benzos to me (even for occasional use, I don’t want to take them daily anyway).  They give me reasons like "benzos are addictive, and give bad withdrawls", and then promptly write me a prescription for SSRIs.  Umm… does anybody else find something wrong with this situation? Maybe I am paranoid, but I get the distinct impression that some doctors are taking kickbacks from large pharmaceutical companies.  Nobody makes any money by prescribing a handful of 17 cent benzos once in a while, but a 50 dollar a month SSRI habit for life certainly brings in the big bucks. Anyway, those paranoid concerns aside, I have had some pretty bad experiences with SSRIs and SNRIs.  Every one I’ve tried has caused depression (which I’ve never had before in my life), worse anxiety, sexual side-effects, suicidal thoughts (which i’ve never had before either), and a severe state of mind, which I can only describe as mania.  Are these effects common? Another thing which concerns me is the fact that the pdoc is reluctant to prescribe buspar, which from my reading seems to be effective in about 60-80% of cases of GAD.  The reason he gives is that "it isn’t very effective in his experience".  Is this guy incompetent?  I mean, does it seem reasonable for him to rely on his limited personal experience, and toss the results of scientific studies aside? So now he wants to put me on Serzone (another SNRI), but I don’t think that’s a very good idea.  Of the pharmacological knowledge which I’ve acquired, it seems to me that I need to actually reduce the levels of serotonin and norepinephrine in my brain.  As I understand it, this is what benzos do.  I can’t believe how incredibly effective xanax or ativan can be for my condition.  Several times I have been lying on my bed, twitching, sweating, face flushed, massive headache, totally unable to do anything that I need to do, and I take a benzo, within 1 hour I am completely back to normal, possibly even better than normal.  I feel motivated, happy, and most importantly, able to do the things which I need to do.  Does anybody know of any other meds which might be as effective, but that my doc wouldn’t be so negative about? I’ve been doing a fair amount of reading, and have determined that the following list of meds might be useful.  Does anybody have any particular insights, cautions, experiences, or information about any of these? Buspirone, Gabatril, vigabatrin, valproic acid, gabapentin, pregabalin, topiramate, clonidine, tegretol, remeron, zopiclone (for sleep?). This group seems to be pretty active, and full of knowledgeable people. Thanks for any information you can give! Drew

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