Why so many opinions?
Question:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Years ago I inadvertently posted to this group advertising some auctions. From that misunderstanding I was damn near nuked from my ISP and sent hate emails from people who felt righteous and that they themselves had never done anything wrong. I am going to ask for an honest answer; how much of the above happened after you had posted the ad but before you had responded with your first shot in what you admit turned into a flaewar? I rather suspect that people who post ads and then apologize when told not to do that don’t get the reaction you describe.
Judge for yourself: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.marketing.online.ebay/browse_frm/t… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -This turned into a flame war situation where after a while everyone, practically, killfiled me. Since then I’ve basically lurked, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Everything from top-posting to asking the same question someone else asked (even if it was like a year ago) gets jumped on. Good luck trying to change it. If you really want to change it, there is a method that really does work: THE STANDARD ADVICE: There is a way to influence what gets discussed in a newsgroup that works well, and another way that has never worked no matter how many people have tried it. What works: Post articles on the topic you wish to see discussed and participate in the resulting discussion. Use killfiles and filters so that you don’t see the articles that you dislike. If you don’t know how to use a killfile, use good old fashioned discipline and don’t read the articles that you dislike. Never, ever respond to articles that you dislike. What doesn’t work: Respond to articles that you dislike, complain about articles that you dislike, complain about posters that you dislike, complain about how terrible everyone else is for not posting what you want them to post. Talk about how to respond to articles that you dislike. Make the articles that you dislike the center of attention, the main topic of discussion, and a personal crusade. -Guy Macon (There may be merit in a limited discussion about The Standard Advice, but it is unclear whether such discussions (including this one) are beneficial.)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are EXACTLY correct in your views and evaluation. I am guilty of commenting rather than helping. And for a first timer, its frustrating. I posted a question in the quickbooks NG last night and got 2 absolutely smartasss "answers" which werent answers in the least. I would challenge everyone to re-read flatch’s words and lets try a new approach for the next week and see what happens in this group. And yet in your very next post you reply to a post by "nes..", which my filter removed as being yet another morph by the poster who posts as Ri.. Ber.. Darn it! I wish I could figure out how to configure a decent newsreader! A
Or at least configure a decent newsreader figure! — Joanne
Response:
Curious. I’ve noticed an increasing amount of opinionated answers from ‘how to’ questions. [...]
Yer sleepwalking, right?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You are EXACTLY correct in your views and evaluation. I am guilty of commenting rather than helping. And for a first timer, its frustrating. I posted a question in the quickbooks NG last night and got 2 absolutely smartasss "answers" which werent answers in the least. I would challenge everyone to re-read flatch’s words and lets try a new approach for the next week and see what happens in this group. And yet in your very next post you reply to a post by "nes..", which my filter removed as being yet another morph by the poster who posts as Ri.. Ber..
Darn it! I wish I could figure out how to configure a decent newsreader! A
Response:
In some newsgroups, the regulars will advise newbies about not feeding trolls. Most newbies can wrap their minds around the idea that resonding to abusive posts leads to more abusive posts, and those few who can’t can be killfiled along with the trolls.
That’s good advice; I’ll try to do that on the rare occasions I know the answer to a newbie question. -Bertha — Let us endeavor so to live that when we come to die even the undertaker will be sorry. — Mark Twain, "Pudd’nhead Wilson’s Calendar"
Response:
I also think a lot of folks seem compelled to respond to everything directed their way and are unable to ignore the stuff that’s snide or jokey or challenging.
That’s because we have in our genes behavior patterns that assume face-to-face contact. In real life, several of the regulars here would get severe beatings for acting as they do. In real life we all tend to give someone verbal clues that they should stop what they are doing or face the consequences. On Usenet, someone is free to invent an alias and make a game of tweaking those who react in the normal human fashion. There have been cases where someone figured out who their attacker really was and exacted revenge, but those cases are rare. Here on Usenet, the best response to anything rude or abusive is to set up a filter so that you don’t see it, and to assume that anyone who has a brain has done the same. "Arguing with anonymous strangers on the Internet is a sucker’s game because they almost always turn out to be – or to be indistinguishable from — self-righteous sixteen-year-olds possessing infinite amounts of free time." -Neil Stephenson, _Cryptonomicon_
Response:
Hey – I resent that! I do help the newbies – I challenge you to find *me* chortling "Google is your friend." in response to any question, regardless of how many times it’s been asked. I daresay I’ve answered a lot more questions in this group than you have.
That is true. You are not part of the problem of flamewars and of abusing newbies. You are a major contributor to the problem of off-topic posting (check your last dozen posts), but – unlike the case with the abuse problem – it is quite common for a group to be full of off-topic yet friendly discussions and still be very useful to those who wish to discuss the topic, so I don’t see off- topic posts as being much of a problem. You could do a bit better with the subject lines, though. Anyone reading a post by you titled "Bye Bye FEMA Guy" or "Was Barbara Bush ever a blonde?" shouldn’t expect a discussion about eBay, but someone seeing a post by you titled "Reefaging as a negotiating tactic" just might expect a discussion about that, not about having sex while waiting for your VW to cool off… Here is a little tune about Trolling Usenet: (Sung to The Tune of "Be Our Guest" from Disney’s "Beauty and the Beast") Be a troll! Be a troll! Let disruption be your goal – Anything that you can do to draw attention to your role Egoboo can be nice Get your fix at any price You can make entire newsgroups into clucking little birdcoops Be a troll! Be a troll! Pound their patience into coal Tell the regulars they have no sense of flair Insult their mothers too and their manners, pfoo! Be a troll, be a troll, be a troll! Make them burn, make them freeze Sing of people scratching fleas Snigger at the woes of others who are forced upon their knees Stress and fear, jealous rage Let them be your guiding gauge Then accuse the quiet suckers all as nosy mother****ers Don’t be small, don’t be tame Show you have no sense of shame Just enrage them til on stage the heads will roll You love to shrill out flame, it’s all a giant game Be a troll, dig a hole, you’re a troll. Flaming dues, barbeques Ought to wake ‘em where they snooze Don’t forget to douse the fires with proof 307 booze (song tangent) : 307 Ale my friends, 307 Ale! The finest drink that any bar has ever had for sale!… (ahem) Feed them slugs, feed them snails Put their legs between their tails And so what if you are hated cuz their nerves are really grated When you leave, do salute give that middle finger toot And be proud of your achievements in your soul For you have shown that they are evil in their way You’re a troll-l-l-l, says our poll-l-l-l, you’re a troll-l-l-l! – Words by Leslie Fish and Gary McGath.
Response:
I doubt it will change anything. Many times I have seen a new poster ask a question, get several thoughtful and informative replies, and completely ignore those to engage in arguments with those who made the snide comments or jokes. It gives me the impression that the newcomers don’t WANT helpful and informative replies, or they’d be giving more attention to those.
In some newsgroups, the regulars will advise newbies about not feeding trolls. Most newbies can wrap their minds around the idea that resonding to abusive posts leads to more abusive posts, and those few who can’t can be killfiled along with the trolls.
Response:
Because everyone needs to vent once and a while and have fun with it. Eventually though in repsonses the question or issue seems to get answered on here over a day or 2 and many times same day.
Response:
Years ago I inadvertently posted to this group advertising some auctions. From that misunderstanding I was damn near nuked from my ISP and sent hate emails from people who felt righteous and that they themselves had never done anything wrong.
I am going to ask for an honest answer; how much of the above happened after you had posted the ad but before you had responded with your first shot in what you admit turned into a flaewar? I rather suspect that people who post ads and then apologize when told not to do that don’t get the reaction you describe. This turned into a flame war situation where after a while everyone, practically, killfiled me. Since then I’ve basically lurked, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Everything from top-posting to asking the same question someone else asked (even if it was like a year ago) gets jumped on. Good luck trying to change it.
If you really want to change it, there is a method that really does work: THE STANDARD ADVICE: There is a way to influence what gets discussed in a newsgroup that works well, and another way that has never worked no matter how many people have tried it. What works: Post articles on the topic you wish to see discussed and participate in the resulting discussion. Use killfiles and filters so that you don’t see the articles that you dislike. If you don’t know how to use a killfile, use good old fashioned discipline and don’t read the articles that you dislike. Never, ever respond to articles that you dislike. What doesn’t work: Respond to articles that you dislike, complain about articles that you dislike, complain about posters that you dislike, complain about how terrible everyone else is for not posting what you want them to post. Talk about how to respond to articles that you dislike. Make the articles that you dislike the center of attention, the main topic of discussion, and a personal crusade. -Guy Macon (There may be merit in a limited discussion about The Standard Advice, but it is unclear whether such discussions (including this one) are beneficial.)
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I have noticed that moderated groups dont have NEAR the level of jerks in it. Has anyone considered breaking off a mod group? This is a discussion forum. Every single thing that gets posted here is an "opinion". A mod group about marketing sounds perfect for those type of posters that drive by here and ask: "I’m thinking of getting into selling. I know nothing about how to sell or use eBay and I don’t have any hobbies that I’m expert at. I simply want someone to tell me [free of course] where to buy products at a low price so that I can resell them at a high price and make lots of money. Jokers, jerks and opinionated people need not apply." Craig
And, of course, they want somebody to blame for all their own stupid mistakes. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Yes, same here! We always have assholes Angrie Woman and Ty to look up to, though. Hey – I resent that! I do help the newbies – I challenge you to find *me* chortling "Google is your friend." in response to any question, regardless of how many times it’s been asked. I daresay I’ve answered a lot more questions in this group than you have. Deb and Richard left because they realized early the futility of making this group enjoyable again. How do you know that? I didn’t see either of them sign off. The last person I saw leave, stating that reason, was JJ the video game seller.
Deb was having a lot of health issues, as she briefly mentioned now and then. Someone reported having been in communication with her and said she’d had very bad back problems. OTOH, any usenet group "belongs" to the people who post to it. Folks move in and out of groups as their interest waxes and wanes, and the culture of any group is likely to change over the years as the regular posters change. I tend to think that anyone who thinks he *deserves* a particular response or level of help from *any* group of strangers is a fool. — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed "I don’t make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans." –FEMA Director Mike Brown, blaming storm victims for their misery after Hurricane Katrina; CNN, Thursday, 9/1/05
Response:
I have noticed that moderated groups dont have NEAR the level of jerks in it. Has anyone considered breaking off a mod group?
This is a discussion forum. Every single thing that gets posted here is an "opinion". A mod group about marketing sounds perfect for those type of posters that drive by here and ask: "I’m thinking of getting into selling. I know nothing about how to sell or use eBay and I don’t have any hobbies that I’m expert at. I simply want someone to tell me [free of course] where to buy products at a low price so that I can resell them at a high price and make lots of money. Jokers, jerks and opinionated people need not apply." Craig
Response:
something like: I would challenge everyone to re-read flatch’s words and lets try a new approach for the next week and see what happens in this group. I doubt it will change anything. Many times I have seen a new poster ask a question, get several thoughtful and informative replies, and completely ignore those to engage in arguments with those who made the snide comments or jokes. It gives me the impression that the newcomers don’t WANT helpful and informative replies, or they’d be giving more attention to those.
I also think a lot of folks seem compelled to respond to everything directed their way and are unable to ignore the stuff that’s snide or jokey or challenging. I suspect this is due to a misperception that this newsgroup exists to provide support and information to newbies and the clueless, a concept which encourages people who don’t get 100% straight answers to take affront and feel they’ve been ill-served. And of course there are they "opinion wanted" posters who really want only *supportive* opinions that confirm their specific grievances and complaints. Personally, I find it utterly hilarious that Flatch — if indeed it was really Flatch — would post the item he did and even funnier that Nester would fall for it. Somebody hand that boy a sign! — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed "I don’t make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans." –FEMA Director Mike Brown, blaming storm victims for their misery after Hurricane Katrina; CNN, Thursday, 9/1/05
Response:
Everything from top-posting to asking the same question someone else asked (even if it was like a year ago) gets jumped on. Good luck trying to change it.
Most people get away with top posting and asking the same questions that were asked a week ago for a while … some don’t. Most will ask a person to stop top posting (or top stop posting … or whatever) before killfiling them. I’m not one who jumps on people for just asking questions (no matter how silly I think they are) but I am of the opinion that this NG is what it is and it’s made up of people who have varying opinions, ways of doing business, backgrounds and agendas. Like eBay, no one twists my arm to stay … so if I didn’t like it or couldn’t tolerate it, I could move on to another NG … or stop reading all of them. Problem solved.
Response:
I doubt it will change anything. Many times I have seen a new poster ask a question, get several thoughtful and informative replies, and completely ignore those to engage in arguments with those who made the snide comments or jokes. It gives me the impression that the newcomers don’t WANT helpful and informative replies, or they’d be giving more attention to those. -Bertha
Or more to the point, that the poster has made a really stupid mistake and is looking for somebody else to blame. And then gets upset when they receive accurate and correct info. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Response:
Everything from top-posting to asking the same question someone else asked (even if it was like a year ago) gets jumped on. Good luck trying to change it. — Rusty www.rbwaters.com eBay ID: huskydustyrusty
No one jumps on top posters anymore. Bruno simply reconfigures them. — Many thanks, Don Lancaster Synergetics 3860 West First Street Box 809 Thatcher, AZ 85552 Please visit my GURU’s LAIR web site at http://www.tinaja.com
Response:
Yes, same here! We always have assholes Angrie Woman and Ty to look up to, though.
Hey – I resent that! I do help the newbies – I challenge you to find *me* chortling "Google is your friend." in response to any question, regardless of how many times it’s been asked. I daresay I’ve answered a lot more questions in this group than you have. Deb and Richard left because they realized early the futility of making this group enjoyable again. How do you know that? I didn’t see either of them sign off. The last person I saw leave, stating that reason, was JJ the video game seller. A
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Curious. I’ve noticed an increasing amount of opinionated answers from ‘how to’ questions. In fact, in many cases if someone asks a question about how to do something, all he gets exclusively is opinions or snide remarks; everything BUT the answer to his question. Example. A guy recently asked how to incorporate sample songs in his listings for CDs he’s selling. Instead of getting an answer, all he got were warnings, opinions, stupid remarks and jokes. (on a side note, over 900 sellers are doing just what he is asking about.) This ‘ready to pounce’ posture is really making this group seem like a bunch of assholes. I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve done it too. But then I asked myself what possible gain am I getting out of it. A feeling of superiority? To WOW the group with my clever answer? To make myself feel better by playing quasi lawyer? To get a sense of helping someone by giving them my opinion, or doing it simply to shoot them down just for the sake of shooting them down? You all know how many years my ridiculous ass has been in this group. So let the jokes and opinion responses begin. Obviously it will be completely unoriginal, but like the scorpion…… That’s one thing I really liked about Deb Stevenson. She was as classy as they get. I miss her and her kind of posts.
Years ago I inadvertently posted to this group advertising some auctions. From that misunderstanding I was damn near nuked from my ISP and sent hate emails from people who felt righteous and that they themselves had never done anything wrong. This turned into a flame war situation where after a while everyone, practically, killfiled me. Since then I’ve basically lurked, and I agree with you wholeheartedly. Everything from top-posting to asking the same question someone else asked (even if it was like a year ago) gets jumped on. Good luck trying to change it. — Rusty www.rbwaters.com eBay ID: huskydustyrusty
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Curious. I’ve noticed an increasing amount of opinionated answers from ‘how to’ questions. In fact, in many cases if someone asks a question about how to do something, all he gets exclusively is opinions or snide remarks; everything BUT the answer to his question. Example. A guy recently asked how to incorporate sample songs in his listings for CDs he’s selling. Instead of getting an answer, all he got were warnings, opinions, stupid remarks and jokes. (on a side note, over 900 sellers are doing just what he is asking about.) This ‘ready to pounce’ posture is really making this group seem like a bunch of assholes. I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve done it too. But then I asked myself what possible gain am I getting out of it. A feeling of superiority? To WOW the group with my clever answer? To make myself feel better by playing quasi lawyer? To get a sense of helping someone by giving them my opinion, or doing it simply to shoot them down just for the sake of shooting them down? You all know how many years my ridiculous ass has been in this group. So let the jokes and opinion responses begin. Obviously it will be completely unoriginal, but like the scorpion…… That’s one thing I really liked about Deb Stevenson. She was as classy as they get. I miss her and her kind of posts.
Who are you? What happened to the *real* Flatch? And why are you posting under his name? — Ty Who is mostly just a slightly skewed Donna Reed "I don’t make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans." –FEMA Director Mike Brown, blaming storm victims for their misery after Hurricane Katrina; CNN, Thursday, 9/1/05
Response:
have noticed that moderated groups dont have NEAR the level of jerks in it. Has anyone considered breaking off a mod group?
Put Google to work. You will see that Flatch would probably be the first one booted off of a moderated group.
Response:
something like: I would challenge everyone to re-read flatch’s words and lets try a new approach for the next week and see what happens in this group.
I doubt it will change anything. Many times I have seen a new poster ask a question, get several thoughtful and informative replies, and completely ignore those to engage in arguments with those who made the snide comments or jokes. It gives me the impression that the newcomers don’t WANT helpful and informative replies, or they’d be giving more attention to those. -Bertha — "I understand. Let us celebrate our agreement with the adding of chocolate to milk." — Homer Simpson
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Curious. I’ve noticed an increasing amount of opinionated answers from ‘how to’ questions. In fact, in many cases if someone asks a question about how to do something, all he gets exclusively is opinions or snide remarks; everything BUT the answer to his question. And you were really expecting more from these idiots? You have been here long enough to know better than to expect anything more. Example. A guy recently asked how to incorporate sample songs in his listings for CDs he’s selling. Instead of getting an answer, all he got were warnings, opinions, stupid remarks and jokes. (on a side note, over 900 sellers are doing just what he is asking about.) Because these idiots don’t have a clue, but feel it best to interject their high level of stupidity for us all to be in awe. It’s best to strum them along. This ‘ready to pounce’ posture is really making this group seem like a bunch of assholes. I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve done it too. But then I asked myself what possible gain am I getting out of it. A feeling of superiority? To WOW the group with my clever answer? To make myself feel better by playing quasi lawyer? To get a sense of helping someone by giving them my opinion, or doing it simply to shoot them down just for the sake of shooting them down? You must be a slow learner, Flatch? Well, "seems like a bunch of assholes" is a major understatement. This group has degraded to a desirability of a public toilet. This is why I find it so much more productive to "kick the nest" and use this group as my personal toilet. It’s always best to adhere to the local native’s customs when visiting. Take a shit and sit a spell! You all know how many years my ridiculous ass has been in this group. So let the jokes and opinion responses begin. Obviously it will be completely unoriginal, but like the scorpion…… Give us credit! I strive everyday to make this group a much more pleasant and desirable place while being highly entertaining. I now realize it’s a lost cause since it’s impossible to bring life back into this corpse. That’s one thing I really liked about Deb Stevenson. She was as classy as they get. I miss her and her kind of posts. Yes, same here! We always have assholes Angrie Woman and Ty to look up to, though. Deb and Richard left because they realized early the futility of making this group enjoyable again. If only they embraced the power of the "nest" would they have found true inner peace.
I have noticed that moderated groups dont have NEAR the level of jerks in it. Has anyone considered breaking off a mod group?
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Curious. I’ve noticed an increasing amount of opinionated answers from ‘how to’ questions. In fact, in many cases if someone asks a question about how to do something, all he gets exclusively is opinions or snide remarks; everything BUT the answer to his question. Example. A guy recently asked how to incorporate sample songs in his listings for CDs he’s selling. Instead of getting an answer, all he got were warnings, opinions, stupid remarks and jokes. (on a side note, over 900 sellers are doing just what he is asking about.) This ‘ready to pounce’ posture is really making this group seem like a bunch of assholes. I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve done it too. But then I asked myself what possible gain am I getting out of it. A feeling of superiority? To WOW the group with my clever answer? To make myself feel better by playing quasi lawyer? To get a sense of helping someone by giving them my opinion, or doing it simply to shoot them down just for the sake of shooting them down? You all know how many years my ridiculous ass has been in this group. So let the jokes and opinion responses begin. Obviously it will be completely unoriginal, but like the scorpion…… That’s one thing I really liked about Deb Stevenson. She was as classy as they get. I miss her and her kind of posts.
FL, You are EXACTLY correct in your views and evaluation. I am guilty of commenting rather than helping. And for a first timer, its frustrating. I posted a question in the quickbooks NG last night and got 2 absolutely smartasss "answers" which werent answers in the least. I would challenge everyone to re-read flatch’s words and lets try a new approach for the next week and see what happens in this group. chaz
Response:
Curious. I’ve noticed an increasing amount of opinionated answers from ‘how to’ questions. In fact, in many cases if someone asks a question about how to do something, all he gets exclusively is opinions or snide remarks; everything BUT the answer to his question. Example. A guy recently asked how to incorporate sample songs in his listings for CDs he’s selling. Instead of getting an answer, all he got were warnings, opinions, stupid remarks and jokes. (on a side note, over 900 sellers are doing just what he is asking about.) This ‘ready to pounce’ posture is really making this group seem like a bunch of assholes. I’ll be the first to admit, I’ve done it too. But then I asked myself what possible gain am I getting out of it. A feeling of superiority? To WOW the group with my clever answer? To make myself feel better by playing quasi lawyer? To get a sense of helping someone by giving them my opinion, or doing it simply to shoot them down just for the sake of shooting them down? You all know how many years my ridiculous ass has been in this group. So let the jokes and opinion responses begin. Obviously it will be completely unoriginal, but like the scorpion…… That’s one thing I really liked about Deb Stevenson. She was as classy as they get. I miss her and her kind of posts.
