Question:
Child protction laws actually grew out of the animal welfare laws. There was a time in America where it was a crime to beat your horse, but not a crime to beat your child. -L.
And it wasn’t that long ago either. Pam S.
Response:
rec.pets.cats.anecdotes – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course there is virtue in the ability to survive tragedy. No, not just survive, but to keep a good attitude, and to still be nurturing to those who still depend on you, and most of all, to still live your life in the way it was meant to be lived, regardless of what happens along the way. I’m going to say something that may make me sound like a "tragedy queen" but I’m not sure that if I had other children that still needed me to be a good role model/mother, that I’d have the ability to be one. Have never thought of you as a tragedy queen, Cheryl. You went through the worst hell any mother can face. Of course there were times that everything reminded you of Eric. But you didn’t weep and moan constantly, you didn’t relate everything to you and your loss, and, above all, you didn’t demand that we give you our pity. We gave (and give) our sympathy, but you never demanded it, and would have been totally upset had anyone said "I pity you." As for continuing for the kids… I ended up in major therapy and on prescription drugs after Jason was taken to the treatment center. I was fortunate that Rob was there for them, as I couldn’t be. I was a wreck. I walked through that valley, just as you are walking through your valley right now. You’ll make it, in fact you already are making it. If you don’t believe me, google your posts from then and now. You’re an awesome woman and I’m proud to know you. Pam S. wishing I could make a joke for this one, but can’t
I need a joke. I wish there was at least something to make me laugh right now! I go through spurts. I am glad Rob was there for you through everything. And you are there for him. You know what? I sort of cling to you, if you haven’t figured that out yet. You’ve been through so much and I watch for your posts. For a giggle. For a bit of strength. Yours, and a few others here. You guys give me strength. You saying that you walked the path the some honestly could not and come out the other side the witty, caring, emotional and probably very hurting woman on the other side and still going through it gives me strength. Seriously. Pam, I miss Eric so much and it doesn’t get better. It doesn’t. Something reminds me of him and I just cry. Hard. I have pictures of him all over my house and sometimes I want to take them down. Then I want to put up more pictures. My foyer is full of pictures of him from babyhood to his senior year in HS when I had the last real pic. After that it’s all snapshots. I am rambling and I can’t write anymore. Thanks for listening. (((hugs))) — Cheryl
Response:
…I can’t write anymore. Thanks for listening. (((hugs))) Cheryl
Major hugs to both Cheryl and Pam, two of my all-time favorite people. Annie
Response:
<snip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Of course there is virtue in the ability to survive tragedy. No, not just survive, but to keep a good attitude, and to still be nurturing to those who still depend on you, and most of all, to still live your life in the way it was meant to be lived, regardless of what happens along the way. I’m going to say something that may make me sound like a "tragedy queen" but I’m not sure that if I had other children that still needed me to be a good role model/mother, that I’d have the ability to be one. Sometimes I think I’m always going to be a "tradegy queen". I can’t imagine right now that there isn’t going to be a time that I won’t say "if my son hadn’t died, I’d be a different person right now". Do I need therapy? Hell yes. Will I get it? Getting closer. What’s stopping me? Me. Fucking pride. Fear of awakening. — Cheryl
Cheryl, you *never* get over a loss like that. Never. Yes, you go on because you have to, you cope, you hopefully learn to deal with day-to-day life again. But life will never be the same. Your grief doesn’t get better – it just gets "different". Sure you’d be a different person – one does not go through that kind of loss unscarred. People who haven’t suffered tragic loss don’t understand it – how could they? They haven’t lived it. hugs, -L.
Response:
to say about Re: Animal Cops – Abuse Warning: Yeah, I have been through the wars, but so many people have been through so much more than I have, so how can I complain? I don’t think there’s some particular virtue about surviving, I just did it. Humor is my shield for the bad stuff, and I use it for the good as well. What can I say, no one really "likes" a tragedy queen. Pam S. who’d rather laugh then cry any day
I’m like that myself. Humor is an essential survival tool. — "The universe is quite robust in design and appears to be doing just fine on its own, incompetent support staff notwithstanding. 
" – the Dennis formerly known as (evil), MCFL
Response:
Cheryl, you have never offended me. In this case, I am a little prickly, because some of my family claimed that I "gave" or "made" Jason into a paranoid schizophrenic. Oh my! Did you explain that this is a *physical* problem that can often be controlled with medication (the problem is getting patients to *stay* on the medication because they start feeling *SO* much better that they think they don’t need it anymore and then they get sick again).
There’s a reason that she’s called my idiot sister. After she found out about this, she contacted all my brothers and sisters and tried to get them to help her take Mike and Mandy away from me. Then she had her daughter contact Rob’s father and ask him to help put me into an insane asylum and give her Mike and Mandy to raise. The daughter happened to get hold of Rob by accident (he answered and she asked for Mr. Shirk), which is lucky for her as Rob’s dad was really upset that they’d even think of doing this to me, let alone trying to get him to help. Pam S. airing her dirty linens
Response:
Cheryl, you have never offended me. In this case, I am a little prickly, because some of my family claimed that I "gave" or "made" Jason into a paranoid schizophrenic.
Oh my! Did you explain that this is a *physical* problem that can often be controlled with medication (the problem is getting patients to *stay* on the medication because they start feeling *SO* much better that they think they don’t need it anymore and then they get sick again). I don’t talk about him as a rule because it is a painful subject, but I think that it needed to be brought up in order to point out that in a few cases the parents aren’t to blame.
Not referring to you but to me, often even when the parents *are* to blame it’s only because they’re handed things they don’t know how to deal with. Babies, unlike VCRs, don’t come with instruction manuals. It took going to counseling and parenting classes before I learned how to handle my 12-year-old who had severe behavioral problems. Though nothing as bad as what you had to handle, still ADHD combined with a 156 IQ and a *horrible* public school system was bad enough!! My son was always *too* sensitive when it came to animals and suffered a terrible RB 1984). To make it worse, Monkey Cat crawled up onto my son’s bed to die and that’s where Mark found him. [The guy who did it admitted it to me but the sheriff's office said all we could do was sue him in civil court for the cost of the cat!!! That's the incident that made me decide to have indoor only cats since then.] Yeah, I have been through the wars, but so many people have been through so much more than I have, so how can I complain? I don’t think there’s some particular virtue about surviving, I just did it. Humor is my shield for the bad stuff, and I use it for the good as well. What can I say, no one really "likes" a tragedy queen.
Me too. The motto I live by is "Bad things are going to happen to you and you can either cry about them or laugh about them – neither reaction will change the bad thing that happened, but it’s so much more fun to laugh and your nose doesn’t get red!" Hugs, CatNipped – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Pam S. who’d rather laugh then cry any day
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know, I shouldn’t watch this show – we just talked about this. Just saw a show where a 14-year-old tied a cat with rope and dragged it behind his bike, then doused the cat with lighter fluid and set her on fire! The poor cat was so badly burned that her ears were gone! She recovered and was adopted, and the little sweetie is still playful, loving, and trusting with her new slave and her kids!!!! What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling! I need to go throw up now! People make me sick! And for gawd’s sake *WHEN* are we going to get some tougher laws regarding animal cruelty and enforcement of those laws? Look on the bright side: At least thre ARE laws, now (most places). There WAS a time when whatever people chose to do to their animals (or kids) had no legal repercussions, unless they tried it with other people’s "property"! (And then if it was "only an animal", all the owner could do was take the culprit to civil court and sue him/her.)
Child protction laws actually grew out of the animal welfare laws. There was a time in America where it was a crime to beat your horse, but not a crime to beat your child. -L.
Response:
I know, I shouldn’t watch this show – we just talked about this. Just saw a show where a 14-year-old tied a cat with rope and dragged it behind his bike, then doused the cat with lighter fluid and set her on fire!
I’m glad the kitty got a new loving home. The child should have been banned from interacting with animals as well. Animal abuse is one of three percursers to serial murder – the other two being bedwetting and firestarting. Something like 70% of all serial murderers exhibited all three behaviors as a child. (I have the actual stat/reference somewhere if anyone would like me to look it up.) -L.
Response:
Of course there is virtue in the ability to survive tragedy. No, not just survive, but to keep a good attitude, and to still be nurturing to those who still depend on you, and most of all, to still live your life in the way it was meant to be lived, regardless of what happens along the way. I’m going to say something that may make me sound like a "tragedy queen" but I’m not sure that if I had other children that still needed me to be a good role model/mother, that I’d have the ability to be one.
Have never thought of you as a tragedy queen, Cheryl. You went through the worst hell any mother can face. Of course there were times that everything reminded you of Eric. But you didn’t weep and moan constantly, you didn’t relate everything to you and your loss, and, above all, you didn’t demand that we give you our pity. We gave (and give) our sympathy, but you never demanded it, and would have been totally upset had anyone said "I pity you." As for continuing for the kids… I ended up in major therapy and on prescription drugs after Jason was taken to the treatment center. I was fortunate that Rob was there for them, as I couldn’t be. I was a wreck. I walked through that valley, just as you are walking through your valley right now. You’ll make it, in fact you already are making it. If you don’t believe me, google your posts from then and now. You’re an awesome woman and I’m proud to know you. Pam S. wishing I could make a joke for this one, but can’t
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know anything about this situation, but it’s possible that the parents are also abusive — a cycle of violence. I would like to think that he has loving, concerned parents who would follow through on counseling, but I know that many of these cases actually follow a pattern of violence (with parents who "could care less" about animal abuse). I tried not to read this thread because I don’t typically when there is an abuse warning, but I thought the same thing. What went on in his childhood? Something led him to abusing animals. 
Sometimes it is not the parent. Sometimes there is a medical reason for a child acting like this and no matter what the parent does, the medical and counseling system will not help.
YES! I have a sister with a child who is ill. She is not at fault, all the doctors agree. Her husband has mental illness–dissociative disease–in his family. It is not his fault either. We went through this with our oldest child, Jason. No one would listen to us and told us that as long as he was only a threat to our family, they couldn’t do anything about him. Sadly, he went too far. We have not seen him since he went into a residential treatment program when he was 14. The psychological diagnoses was that he was a paranoid schizophrenic with antisocial and narcissistic tendencies. We’d been trying to get help for him since he was three. Pam S.
I am so sorry you had to go through this. My sister’s son is in Shepherd Pratt in Maryland, and has been since he was 12. She has been blamed by her inlaws for his illness–it had to be something she did. It just breaks my heart as I saw what a wonderful mother she was.
Response:
rec.pets.cats.anecdotes Yeah, I have been through the wars, but so many people have been through so much more than I have, so how can I complain? I don’t think there’s some particular virtue about surviving, I just did it. Humor is my shield for the bad stuff, and I use it for the good as well. What can I say, no one really "likes" a tragedy queen.
Of course there is virtue in the ability to survive tragedy. No, not just survive, but to keep a good attitude, and to still be nurturing to those who still depend on you, and most of all, to still live your life in the way it was meant to be lived, regardless of what happens along the way. I’m going to say something that may make me sound like a "tragedy queen" but I’m not sure that if I had other children that still needed me to be a good role model/mother, that I’d have the ability to be one. Sometimes I think I’m always going to be a "tradegy queen". I can’t imagine right now that there isn’t going to be a time that I won’t say "if my son hadn’t died, I’d be a different person right now". Do I need therapy? Hell yes. Will I get it? Getting closer. What’s stopping me? Me. Fucking pride. Fear of awakening. — Cheryl
Response:
Sometimes it is not the parent. Sometimes there is a medical reason for a child acting like this and no matter what the parent does, the medical and counseling system will not help. We went through this with our oldest child, Jason. No one would listen to us and told us that as long as he was only a threat to our family, they couldn’t do anything about him. Sadly, he went too far. We have not seen him since he went into a residential treatment program when he was 14. The psychological diagnoses was that he was a paranoid schizophrenic with antisocial and narcissistic tendencies. We’d been trying to get help for him since he was three. Pam S.
You’ve had way more than your share of travails in this life haven’t you sweetie. Yet you still keep your sense of humor and manage to soldier on – I’m in awe! Hugs, CatNipped
Response:
rec.pets.cats.anecdotes Sometimes it is not the parent. Sometimes there is a medical reason for a child acting like this and no matter what the parent does, the medical and counseling system will not help. We went through this with our oldest child, Jason. No one would listen to us and told us that as long as he was only a threat to our family, they couldn’t do anything about him. Sadly, he went too far. We have not seen him since he went into a residential treatment program when he was 14. The psychological diagnoses was that he was a paranoid schizophrenic with antisocial and narcissistic tendencies. We’d been trying to get help for him since he was three.
Whoa, Pam, I’m so sorry. I tend to be cynical, and I’m not sure where that comes from, and I think its only recent. An example: The other day my mom called me, and she was talking about a Dr Phil show (which was weird; since she’s been retired, I’ve never heard her talk about a daytime TV show) and there was a child (well, adult technically, he was 19) who had been abusing young girls, and then his own sister. His father (according to my mom’s telling) didn’t believe any of this, and was outraged, but after the Dr Phil story, the boy/man is getting the help he needs. My thoughts kept going to what happened in his childhood, and doubted the father and his tellings. My mom argued that she believed the father. I always feel like I am offending you with things I "say". I do not mean to. I get the feeling that you have had a rough time with more than I know about, and what I know is a lot more than I can conceive. Granted, I’ve only been here a few years, and not everything is [in] black and white. I also feel that you’re stronger than I can even imagine ever being. You’re a strong woman, Pam S. If I could reach over the wire and give you a hug, it would be a tight one. — Cheryl
Response:
I always feel like I am offending you with things I "say". I do not mean to. I get the feeling that you have had a rough time with more than I know about, and what I know is a lot more than I can conceive. Granted, I’ve only been here a few years, and not everything is [in] black and white. I also feel that you’re stronger than I can even imagine ever being. You’re a strong woman, Pam S. If I could reach over the wire and give you a hug, it would be a tight one.
Cheryl, you have never offended me. In this case, I am a little prickly, because some of my family claimed that I "gave" or "made" Jason into a paranoid schizophrenic. I don’t talk about him as a rule because it is a painful subject, but I think that it needed to be brought up in order to point out that in a few cases the parents aren’t to blame. Yeah, I have been through the wars, but so many people have been through so much more than I have, so how can I complain? I don’t think there’s some particular virtue about surviving, I just did it. Humor is my shield for the bad stuff, and I use it for the good as well. What can I say, no one really "likes" a tragedy queen. Pam S. who’d rather laugh then cry any day
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know anything about this situation, but it’s possible that the parents are also abusive — a cycle of violence. I would like to think that he has loving, concerned parents who would follow through on counseling, but I know that many of these cases actually follow a pattern of violence (with parents who "could care less" about animal abuse). I tried not to read this thread because I don’t typically when there is an abuse warning, but I thought the same thing. What went on in his childhood? Something led him to abusing animals. Sometimes it is not the parent. Sometimes there is a medical reason for a child acting like this and no matter what the parent does, the medical and counseling system will not help. We went through this with our oldest child, Jason. No one would listen to us and told us that as long as he was only a threat to our family, they couldn’t do anything about him. Sadly, he went too far. We have not seen him since he went into a residential treatment program when he was 14. The psychological diagnoses was that he was a paranoid schizophrenic with antisocial and narcissistic tendencies. We’d been trying to get help for him since he was three. Pam S.
Pam, I’m so sorry. That is a terrible ordeal for a parent (or any loving relative). My father’s sister was schizophrenic, and I am well aware that a family does not "cause" this illness — and resources that are needed are sadly lacking (just as you have described). MaryL
Response:
I don’t know anything about this situation, but it’s possible that the parents are also abusive — a cycle of violence. I would like to think that he has loving, concerned parents who would follow through on counseling, but I know that many of these cases actually follow a pattern of violence (with parents who "could care less" about animal abuse).
I tried not to read this thread because I don’t typically when there is an abuse warning, but I thought the same thing. What went on in his childhood? Something led him to abusing animals. — Cheryl
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know anything about this situation, but it’s possible that the parents are also abusive — a cycle of violence. I would like to think that he has loving, concerned parents who would follow through on counseling, but I know that many of these cases actually follow a pattern of violence (with parents who "could care less" about animal abuse). I tried not to read this thread because I don’t typically when there is an abuse warning, but I thought the same thing. What went on in his childhood? Something led him to abusing animals.
Sometimes it is not the parent. Sometimes there is a medical reason for a child acting like this and no matter what the parent does, the medical and counseling system will not help. We went through this with our oldest child, Jason. No one would listen to us and told us that as long as he was only a threat to our family, they couldn’t do anything about him. Sadly, he went too far. We have not seen him since he went into a residential treatment program when he was 14. The psychological diagnoses was that he was a paranoid schizophrenic with antisocial and narcissistic tendencies. We’d been trying to get help for him since he was three. Pam S.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [[ What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling! At age 14, that "child" should know better. That child is showing tendencies towards becoming a serial or spree killer. Total disregard for an animal to feel pain is one of the first signs. "Anger management" is IMHO a cop-out. So this sullen kid will sit with a counselor, or maybe in a group setting, and do what? Nothing. ]] My pity goes out to the kid’s parents (and, of course, the cat, the totally innocent party in all this). If that were my kid, first of all I’d be enraged at him for harming any animal, let alone the family cat. Because I LOVE my cats, if I had a child I’d love the child, and I can’t think of much worse of a situation to face than to have a loved family member do harm to a loved pet. BUT… if that were my kid, I’d check him into a hospital so fast, his head would spin. That kid needs MAJOR psychological help, if there’s to be any hope that he will stop causing harm to animals. Not to mention, if there’s to be any hope of preventing him from "graduating" to harming humans. What a horrid, horrid situation. 
( That family HAS no happy ending or easy answer. And if they’re wise, they won’t have PETS, either, until this situation gets resolved. Donna I don’t know anything about this situation, but it’s possible that the parents are also abusive — a cycle of violence. I would like to think that he has loving, concerned parents who would follow through on counseling, but I know that many of these cases actually follow a pattern of violence (with parents who "could care less" about animal abuse). MaryL
Sad but very true. Anyone in social work would agree.
Response:
I know, I shouldn’t watch this show – we just talked about this. Just saw a show where a 14-year-old tied a cat with rope and dragged it behind his bike, then doused the cat with lighter fluid and set her on fire! The poor cat was so badly burned that her ears were gone! She recovered and was adopted, and the little sweetie is still playful, loving, and trusting with her new slave and her kids!!!! What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling! I need to go throw up now! People make me sick! And for gawd’s sake *WHEN* are we going to get some tougher laws regarding animal cruelty and enforcement of those laws?
Look on the bright side: At least thre ARE laws, now (most places). There WAS a time when whatever people chose to do to their animals (or kids) had no legal repercussions, unless they tried it with other people’s "property"! (And then if it was "only an animal", all the owner could do was take the culprit to civil court and sue him/her.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hugs, CatNipped
Response:
Sadly, a lot of people don’t think of animals as caring, loving, living beings.
According to veterinarian Alan Schoen (authour of "Kindred Spirits"), even as late as the mid-1960’s, when he was in veterinarly school, most of his instructors taught that "animals don’t feel pain the way we do"! People’s attitudes toward the "lower" animlas have changed a great deal (for the better) in the past fifty years.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [[ What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling! At age 14, that "child" should know better. That child is showing tendencies towards becoming a serial or spree killer. Total disregard for an animal to feel pain is one of the first signs. "Anger management" is IMHO a cop-out. So this sullen kid will sit with a counselor, or maybe in a group setting, and do what? Nothing. ]] My pity goes out to the kid’s parents (and, of course, the cat, the totally innocent party in all this). If that were my kid, first of all I’d be enraged at him for harming any animal, let alone the family cat. Because I LOVE my cats, if I had a child I’d love the child, and I can’t think of much worse of a situation to face than to have a loved family member do harm to a loved pet. BUT… if that were my kid, I’d check him into a hospital so fast, his head would spin. That kid needs MAJOR psychological help, if there’s to be any hope that he will stop causing harm to animals. Not to mention, if there’s to be any hope of preventing him from "graduating" to harming humans. What a horrid, horrid situation. ( That family HAS no happy ending or easy answer. And if they’re wise, they won’t have PETS, either, until this situation gets resolved. Donna
I don’t know anything about this situation, but it’s possible that the parents are also abusive — a cycle of violence. I would like to think that he has loving, concerned parents who would follow through on counseling, but I know that many of these cases actually follow a pattern of violence (with parents who "could care less" about animal abuse). MaryL
Response:
I know, I shouldn’t watch this show – we just talked about this. Just saw a show where a 14-year-old tied a cat with rope and
(snip) can’t stand reading this! What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling!
At age 14, that "child" should know better. That child is showing tendencies towards becoming a serial or spree killer. Total disregard for an animal to feel pain is one of the first signs. "Anger management" is IMHO a cop-out. So this sullen kid will sit with a counselor, or maybe in a group setting, and do what? Nothing. And for gawd’s sake *WHEN* are we going to get some tougher laws regarding animal cruelty and enforcement of those laws? Hugs, CatNipped
Sadly, a lot of people don’t think of animals as caring, loving, living beings. I suppose the laws in some places are getting more strict or at least the courts are enforcing them more, but sadly, not enough or not strictly enough. Jill
Response:
[[ What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling!
At age 14, that "child" should know better. That child is showing tendencies towards becoming a serial or spree killer. Total disregard for an animal to feel pain is one of the first signs. "Anger management" is IMHO a cop-out. So this sullen kid will sit with a counselor, or maybe in a group setting, and do what? Nothing. ]] My pity goes out to the kid’s parents (and, of course, the cat, the totally innocent party in all this). If that were my kid, first of all I’d be enraged at him for harming any animal, let alone the family cat. Because I LOVE my cats, if I had a child I’d love the child, and I can’t think of much worse of a situation to face than to have a loved family member do harm to a loved pet. BUT… if that were my kid, I’d check him into a hospital so fast, his head would spin. That kid needs MAJOR psychological help, if there’s to be any hope that he will stop causing harm to animals. Not to mention, if there’s to be any hope of preventing him from "graduating" to harming humans. What a horrid, horrid situation. ( That family HAS no happy ending or easy answer. And if they’re wise, they won’t have PETS, either, until this situation gets resolved. Donna
Response:
I know, I shouldn’t watch this show – we just talked about this. Just saw a show where a 14-year-old tied a cat with rope and dragged it behind his bike, then doused the cat with lighter fluid and set her on fire! The poor cat was so badly burned that her ears were gone! She recovered and was adopted, and the little sweetie is still playful, loving, and trusting with her new slave and her kids!!!! What happened to the 14-year-old? He has to go to anger management counseling! I need to go throw up now! People make me sick! And for gawd’s sake *WHEN* are we going to get some tougher laws regarding animal cruelty and enforcement of those laws? Hugs, CatNipped
Response:
> Smart people tend to have higher expectations of their lives, > expectations which are not always met. Hence the depression. 