Excessive Daytime Sleepine | Sleeping Disorder

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Advice On Food Agressive Sheltie

Question:

This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room. no different with dogs than cats. In this case sometimes HYPOthyroidism in dogs causes aggressive behavior. Time for a basic blood panel with thyroid check. Take in some urine too. Do the whole shebang.

Good idea budlady, thanks. We’re taking her to the vet Thursday and will ask to have that checked out. That actually makes alot of sense to me and would explain alot of things. …..Many dogs do not like to be bugged while they’re eating. I even have a cat like this, who prefers not to eat in the same room with other cats. If there’s nowhere else to lock her up to eat, put her in the bathroom so she can eat in peace.

Yup, she eats by herself…the problem now is that she’s displaying the behaviour whether there’s food involved or not. My cat George is the same way, you can’t mess with him while he’s eating Dee

Response:

HOWEDY Dee, ALL the information you need is in your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual at http://www.doggydoright.com Just ask The Puppy Wizard if you need any additional FREE heelp.

Thanks Puppy Wizard, I’ll go check it out. Dee

Response:

HOWEDY nicole h, Kennel the dog for all foods and treats.

Hi Nicole. I didn’t actually see your original post, and I’m not actually sure that you were replying to me this is all such a mess! Anyway, this wouldn’t work for us, we don’t use a kennel/crate at all and I just don’t like the idea of it. Thanks though! Dee

Response:

Heh, well ok I can’t really reply to this in sequence. No, Michelle isn’t trained well. As I said, she was abandoned and already five years old when we took her in. She is not punished, EVER, for anything that she does. We don’t yell at her or raise a hand to her for any reason, and of course this is a tiny problem in the overall scheme of things and she’s in no danger of "the needle." The needle?? Where did you get that? The cats are former strays and ferals who were taken in *because* they were ill, we didn’t make them that way, but thanks for your support. I’ve seen you give some good responses to people from time to time, so if you have anything that can help me out, I’d appreciate it. Thanks. Dee – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HOWEDY dee, I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour, The Puppy Wizard will be the first to tell you it woudn’t matter if you did, cause you’d be DEAD WRONG anyHOWE. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness. Your kats have The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME like professor SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Heh, well ok I can’t really reply to this in sequence. No, Michelle isn’t trained well. As I said, she was abandoned and already five years old when we took her in. She is not punished, EVER, for anything that she does. We don’t yell at her or raise a hand to her for any reason, and of course this is a tiny problem in the overall scheme of things and she’s in no danger of "the needle." The needle?? Where did you get that? The cats are former strays and ferals who were taken in *because* they were ill, we didn’t make them that way, but thanks for your support. I’ve seen you give some good responses to people from time to time, so if you have anything that can help me out, I’d appreciate it. Thanks. Dee HOWEDY dee,

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour, The Puppy Wizard will be the first to tell you it woudn’t matter if you did, cause you’d be DEAD WRONG anyHOWE. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness. Your kats have The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME like professor SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for

Response:

I have never heard of the thyroid being a problem w/aggression… always good to know! My bloodhound, a rescue, had food aggression (even growled at the kids if they just walked by, they know better than to touch or get close, me on the other hand, will test and push the dog to find out LOL) Thx for the info Nic — 3 of every 10 Americans Know Someone With Lupus Help find the cure. www.lupus.org

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room. no different with dogs than cats. In this case sometimes HYPOthyroidism in dogs causes aggressive behavior. Time for a basic blood panel with thyroid check. Take in some urine too. Do the whole shebang. …..Many dogs do not like to be bugged while they’re eating. I even have a cat like this, who prefers not to eat in the same room with other cats. If there’s nowhere else to lock her up to eat, put her in the bathroom so she can eat in peace. buglady take out the dog before replying

Response:

This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room.

no different with dogs than cats. In this case sometimes HYPOthyroidism in dogs causes aggressive behavior. Time for a basic blood panel with thyroid check. Take in some urine too. Do the whole shebang. …..Many dogs do not like to be bugged while they’re eating. I even have a cat like this, who prefers not to eat in the same room with other cats. If there’s nowhere else to lock her up to eat, put her in the bathroom so she can eat in peace. buglady take out the dog before replying

Response:

HOWEDY nicole h,

Kennel the dog for all foods and treats.

That WAS the problem. But after dee punished and scolded the dog she made IT MOORE aggressive so the dog is ALWAYS ready to attack the kats. Locking IT in a box for feeding will make IT MOORE aggressive. Problem solved.

Yeah… if you’re half witted simpleton or a dog abuser or a prescription drug addled mental case like most of HOWER regular posters here abHOWETS. It worked for us and has for many.

That so? You mean, for folks who don’t have the intellect to HOWEtwit the cunnin of the domestic puppy dog… like yourself: I recently rescued a bloodhound and he does not respond to no. Where’s the best place to buy an e collar? Does anyone have training tips for bloodhounds? We have 2 other dogs who behave. This dog is 1 yo and still such a puppy HELP Nicole This is a bloodhound. He is nothing like my other dogs. My other dogs *are* obedient. I know he’ll never be trained to the point that he can be taken outside off leash. Bloodhounds don’t work that way. Our old Redbone didn’t either! He’s just like nothing I’ve ever had. He doesn’t like treats (tried a ton of ‘em). There’s no bribing the dog. His size makes him even more difficult. Nicole I would not leave any food down.

That so? And all food, treats would be in the kennel.

Good for you. You got any TRAINING ADVICE? Nicole

I take my Effexor in the morning since it’s supposed to be "stimulating". I take the XR so it’s ok. PROVIGIL is a unique wake-promoting agent for the treatment of excessive daytime sleepiness (commonly called "EDS") associated with narcolepsy. PROVIGIL has been proven to help people with narcolepsy stay awake. PROVIGIL improves daytime wakefulness, allowing people with narcolepsy to participate in daily activities. www.provigil.com In the past, I’ve used Adderall for the fatigue. It helped significantly. After having to change drs, I could not find a dr to RX it yet. Most want to try to get me to sleep since it’s better than faking energy. It’s 5am right now and I’ve slept for about an hour. I’ve tried many many drugs that are supposed to help me sleep but most stop working after 1 week to 1 month. Nicole I’m still taking the Adderall. The script is for 10mg tid but I’m taking 10mg bid. I’ve been forgetting to take it first thing in the morning. So far, so good. I don’t have as much energy as I would like but it’s so much better than before. I’m also sleeping better. I’m tired at night versus my usual evening second wind. This week, I’m going to concentrate on taking the 3 pills a day and see how it works. Phentermine worked well for me too. But the Adderall is dosed more frequently so the energy lasts. Nicole View: Complete Thread (12 articles) Original Format Newsgroups: alt.med.fibromyalgia I took Zanaflex 4mgs three to four times a day. At first, it made me very sleepy but I didn’t find much muscle relaxation. After a while, the sedation part stopped and I changed to Flexeril. Nicole

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour, never having had one before. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness. A friend moved in with his six year old female sheltie last October. The dog grew up with cats …and was abandoned with them. We first noticed that Michelle (yes, she came with the name) would become agressive towards the cats when she had food and they came near her. This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room. The dog’s owner has made a vet appointment for her feeling that she needs medication. I think this is absolutely wrong (even though I worry about my cats!). I’ve fallen in love with the dog too and don’t want to see her needlessly medicated. I’d appreciate any suggestions that anyone can make regarding modifying her behaviour. Thanks! Dee

Response:

Kennel the dog for all foods and treats. Problem solved. It worked for us and has for many. I would not leave any food down. And all food, treats would be in the kennel. Nicole — 3 of every 10 Americans Know Someone With Lupus Help find the cure. www.lupus.org

Response:

HOWEDY dee,

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour,

The Puppy Wizard sez we got LOTS of heelpful posters here who can give you all the INFORMATION you NEED to train your dog not to hurt or get hurt by your kats. never having had one before.

Most of HOWER dog lovers have had plenty of experience with dogs and kats… I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness.

Yeah. That’s cause you’re an abuser, dee. Same reason HOWE COME your dog is attackin the kats, cause you’ve intimated and punished scolded and confronted her to protect your kats. You’ve aggrevated the situation, dee. <snip I’d appreciate any suggestions that anyone can make regarding modifying her behaviour.

Perhaps diddler can offer some advice for safe handling and trainin. Thanks!

Your welcome. There’ll probably be LOTS of heelpful posters with brilliant stratgeies. You got a crate, dee? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dee Actually, I borrowed the vets office kitten once for a couple days for school education on pet care and safe handling as well as responsible pet ownership. I kept the kitten over night in a crate within a crate and yet my dog (yes, Angelic Danny, as well as Taya and Toby tore that kittne to threads from between the crate bars. (apparently he stuck his paws through the crate to bat at the dogs. I was out doing yard work and rushed in to find the little kittens pieces and parts being torn through by ALL the dogs. I called my girl friend to come get my dogs. I screamed displeasure, and stalked out with the kitten. Danny, et al spent 3 days in a kennel until I finally felt like I could interact with them without doing bodily harm. All three dogs were never touched, but knew they had done something so unspeakable that I wouldn’t associate with them and they got banished. To this day, Taya (mom and Dad’s dog) and Danny will not look at a cat. When confronted with one, Danny wees himself and cowers hiding behind me for help. I’m not saying this would work this way with all dogs, But mom and dad now have a house cat, and she has never been harmed by any of the dogs. Danny is there all the time, unsupervised, and has no interest in harming the cat. DIDDY ON CATS (shoot, don’t trap) Xenia Ohio Feb 15 2002 Newsgroups: alt.animals.furtrapping …. If I can get him away from the Olympics, I’ll have him answer that. He doesn’t know how to change the identity on the computer, so if "I" answer this post… it’s really Jeff. And no…. we went to watch. He sold nothing. btw.. are these "CATS" feral domestic cats? (sorry not familiar with Oklahoma) (I just shoot the DSH cats. Jeff caught a couple cats last summer while nuisance trapping an orchard, but it wasn’t intentional) — diddy BUT IF YOU DO TRAP, DO IT RIGHT (The cat went nuts….they weren’t supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this situation). You know I’m a cat abuser because I let my cat out. Alison Well, it totally depends upon where you live, as to whether or not doing so is in the best interest of your animal. Abuser isn’t a term I would use, and I am a "cat group" regular. Here it would be abuse. If you like your cat you keep it home. I run a state authorized and monitored nuisance animal trapline. This morning there was a cat in a snare. Ordinarily, an animal caught in a snare can be released unharmed. One of the animals I am targeting is coyotes (and the complaint was that coyotes were killing area cats) Duh.. If your cats are becoming lunch for wild animals, to me .. It makes sense to keep your cats in where they can’t become lunch.. whatever. Regarding this cat in the snare. It went nuts. It leaped, and tangled itself, and most certainly strangulated it’s intestines. It had the snare pulled tight down to the diameter of a dime (just large enough to encircle the spine) around the waist area. This cats snarled, and attacked. Trying to extricate this cat was exceedingly difficult, not to mention dangerous. Because I feared damage to the intestines and death of the gut, I imagined this cat was not likely to survive. It would have been much simpler to dispatch the unfortunate cat and take out the dead body. Instead, this cat wore a collar. it deserved a chance, and the owner deserved closure. (no id on the collar) . It escaped, just as I released it and it couldn’t be taken to the vet for examination. I will probably never know if this particular cat survives the experience or not. People in the area were aware that trapping was being done and apparently still let their cats run free, both endangered by the traps and by the coyotes being targeted that are causing a problem with their cat population. Had that cat not been wearing a collar, I would not have tried to release this hostile cat. Releasing it may not have been a kindness, but then… cats weren’t supposed to be attracted to this type of trap, in this position, and then they weren’t supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this situation. If you like your pet, you keep them home. Two nights ago, Reka started acting frantic about 11pm. I let her out. It’s coyote breeding season, and she is fascinated by them. I assumed she wanted to go out and listen to them howling. I brought her in, and she spent the night franticly and desperately demanding to go out. After about 4am, I finally put her in the barn, locked securely in a horse stall for the night. She came in by morning, and had a normal active, playful day. Last night, at 11pm, She franticly DEMANDED to go out. I let her out, and brought her in. At midnight, she DEMANDED to be let out. I let her out, but I went out to the barn and got a crate, and decided she could spend the rest of the night in the crate. We were NOT going to do a repeat of the previous night AGAIN. At 3am, she whined so loudly, I then decided not to allow her to set a precedence of this type of behavior. So I took her crate out to the heated gun shop and decided to let her act out her bad behavior in peace, and send a message that her obnoxious behavior was not going to be tolerated. This morning at 6am, I went out, and she had vomited (normal looking dog food) and defecated in her crate (not normal for Reka, but then, She normally didn’t sleep in a crate, NEVER gets corrected (she never does anything to GET corrected for) and was probably nerves from the outside experience, plus reprimand and solitary confinement.) I let her in the house while I cleaned the cage. Hoping I had made my point. She acted healthy and normal, and playful and chipper. But then I noticed a spot of blood on the bathroom linoleum and in the bathtub. I was the last to take a bath, so I knew REKA was the last in the tub. That blood didnt come from me, so it HAD to come from Reka. Thinking about her nearing the end of her heat cycle, I still didnt think a lot about it. I thought her obnoxious behavior the past couple nights WAS her heat cycle.. and corresponding coyote breeding season. Then while feeding her breakfast, I saw the whole story. She had blood (fresh) streaming from her RECTUM. UhOh. I had her at the vets office this morning before he opened. He just said her intestines were all bunched up with huge air pockets. Was there any chance that she ate strings of carpets? I said, last Thursday we took a plastic tarp out of the yard that we had over the grill to protect it from the weather because she was chewing it. That would explain EVERYTHING. The strings are binding and bunching up her intestines, cutting her internally and tying her intestines in knots as it works its way through. Reka is in a very critical situation. She is going to require extensive and expensive surgery that I cant afford. I will manage. Even with the surgery, her condition will be critical for awhile. Scary thoughts. I would never have treated her the way I did last night, if I had even a clue that she was sick. I feel so badly. — diddy Newsgroups: alt.animals.furtrapping Hey Tobias! I just sent some of my husband’s trap line catches to http://www.wild-about-trapping.com I didn’t get all his catch so far this year. In fact, I didn’t get most. So far he’s had 14 beaver (largest ohio beaver weighing in at 75 pounds, smallest at 35 pounds, and the average about 45 pounds), 10 coyotes, 4 red fox, 3 muskrats, 38 raccoon, 1 mink. Fur Prices are WAY down, and he sold those wonderful beaver for $8 apeice from the raw fur buyer. coyotes pay $3 a piece for raw furs. Raccoons $.50 a piece. Hardly worth doing, but he’s got to do SOMETHING or sitting around the house with me would drive him stir crazy. <grin I love seeing what he brings home, and even helping him (or even actually running) his trap line with/for him. Now when

Response:

HOWEDY dee,

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour,

So you’re askin folks who know even less, as they’ve demonstrated here for years? never having had one before.

You’ve been readin HOWER forums for years. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness.

Cause you punish and scold them. A friend moved in with his six year old female sheltie last October. The dog grew up with cats …

And you punish and scolded her and made her MOORE aggressive fearful mistrusting and jealHOWES of them. and was abandoned with them.

Sob story, eh? We first noticed that Michelle (yes, she came with the name) would become agressive towards the cats when she had food and they came near her.

So you punished her. This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room.

Yeah. Well your MISTAKE was you didn’t HURT her ENOUGH. Repeated weak corrections only ANNOY the dog. The dog’s owner has made a vet appointment for her feeling that she needs medication.

Yeah. That’s idiocy. I think this is absolutely wrong (even though I worry about my cats!).

Right. That’s HOWE COME you scold the dog for grHOWEling at them and that’s HOWE COME she became MOORE aggressive. I’ve fallen in love with the dog too

Well then, you won’t have any problem HURTIN her as much as necessary to save her and protect your kats. and don’t want to see her needlessly medicated.

RIGHT. Then you’ll HURT HER as NECESSARY. I’d appreciate any suggestions that anyone can make

The Puppy Wizard suggests you follow the instructions from the SF GSD Rescue and professor scruff shake. regarding modifying her behaviour.

You’ll need to do things you’d RATHER NOT, but it’s what’s BEST for your dog, according to the folks who love and work with dogs every day. Thanks!

Your welcome! Dee

Our pal lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn stutters: "You Lying Sack Of Dung.When Have I Ever Said Anything About Using A Prong Collar, Or Any Collar Correction At All, To Make Dogs Friendly To House Cats? lying "I LOVE KOEHLER" lynn writes about kats and dogs: ‘This Article Is Something We’ve Put Together For SF GSD Rescue’ How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay – this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K. "Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don’t forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Electronics can be used to create an aversion to cats, but should be used under the direction of a trainer who knows how to instruct the owner in their proper use. Electronics can take the form of shock, sonic or citronella collars. At that time the owner will train with electronics instead of food or whatever other reward system was being used." Put a prong collar with a six-foot leash on the dog. Don’t forget to put the muzzle on the dog. I think a prong works better than a choke with less chance of injury to the dog in this situation. Have the dog in a sit-stay next to you with most of the slack out of the leash and let the cat walk through the room and up to the dog if it wishes (this is why you have the dog muzzled). If the dog makes an aggressive move towards the cat, it must be corrected strongly with both your voice and the collar. This is important – the correction must be physically very strong – not a nag. (PS: not many dogs need to be corrected at all). How can I get him to quit chasing the cats.

Okay – this is going to be a bit loooong - Lynn K. We rely on a dog’s normal pack instinct and instinct to possess. The goal is to strengthen those responses to the cat, to the point where they outweigh prey drive behavior. It nearly always works, and you won’t lose a cat or hurt one of your dogs in the process. The dogs aren’t coerced into accepting the cats, but given the opportunity to recognize individuals as part of their environment, rather than prey, by taking advantage of natural pack and possessive behaviors. When someone asks me if one of our dogs likes cats, my first thought is, "yes, for breakfast, lunch and dinner and a midnight snack". Even dogs who have lived in a home with cats are unpredictable in a new home setting for several reasons: cats all react differently to dogs, a dog may have felt a sense of possession of a specific cat (or any other pet) in its previous home, or the dog may be taking its cue from an alpha (who "possesses" the cat). A dog’s ability to live with a specific cat does not mean that it is "good" with all cats. It may mean that the dog has no prey drive, but it could also mean that the dog "possessed" a specific cat, or lived where an alpha possessed a specific cat(s). A dog can live with cat(s) while still maintaining prey drive around all other cats; this is because the dog considers the cat a possession or a packmate, not prey. It doesn’t lump all cats into one basket and treat them all alike. Pack hassling over position can even spill over into fights over (or attacks upon) the "possession" (i.e. take-away). There’s some basic principles in order for a dog and cat (or bunny or bird or whatever) to be able to live together: 1) There are variances by breed that must be considered. A German Shepherd Dog’s instinct to possess overrides its prey drive. But this is not true for some other breeds such as terriers, sighthounds and Ridgebacks. There are limits to what can be achieved, but it should work with your Bichon-mix. 2) A dog will accept a cat (or other animal) either as a possession or a pack mate if opportunity for interaction is given where the dog cannot see the cat as prey. 3) The dog must accept its owner as "alpha" and take its cue on how to treat the cat(s) from the owner. The owner, however, should not be perceived as "possessing" the cat. The plan that follows will not to stop the dog from chasing all cats. It works to establish a sense of "pack" and possession of the cat in the dog’s mind The steps below allow the dog and cat to interact in a controlled manner in order to establish a sense of possession in the dog while keeping the cat safe while this process is underway. You don’t want to endanger your boyfriend’s cats in any way in this process. Steps: All these steps are important. It’s easier it’s to introduce a dog to a cat who has never been chased by a dog because the cat will interact with the dog sooner, but this works for existing situations once the cat realizes it’s safe. Some cats are easier to work with than others. It is a fine line to tread because you do not want the dog to believe that its owner is possessing the cat – the dog must feel that he or she possesses the cat. Otherwise, the dog can see the cat as something to try to steal away from its owner, especially if there is any question of the owner being the pack "alpha". During the learning process, the dog must never be allowed to chase the cat(s) or to play games that put it in prey drive while the cat is present. If this isn’t done, the process will not work. Work with one dog at a time if possible. 1) The owner of the dog must become the alpha dog in the household. The dog has to realize that it is not alpha and must take its cues from the human pack members as to who it accepts. The owner needs to have established a level of control. 2) When the dog is introduced to the household, the cats are shut away in another room. This is also true if you are introducing a cat into a household with dogs. There are no exceptions at all. Especially don’t carry a cat in your arms if a dog is loose. This can be dangerous for cat, dog and human. A child should never ever carry a cat or small animal in its arms around a loose dog. 3) When the cats are allowed out freely to roam without human supervision, the dog must be outside or where it cannot see the cat. It cannot be inside in a crate where it can see and/or bark or lunge at the cat without correction. This is vital and the entire process will not work if this isn’t done properly. 4) Shut the dog in its crate and allow the cat(s) out hopefully to walk past the dog crate. If the dog barks or lunges within the crate, the dog is verbally corrected. Make sure that the cats are in another room behind a closed door before letting the dog have its time out of the crate. I’m not talking about keeping the dog in the crate all the time, it’s more keeping the cats in another room most of the time. The dog is crated while the cats are out, and then let out of the crate for most of the time. This may take several days or weeks to accomplish. It depends on how quickly the cat comes around to the dog’s crate area (which should be with the family). 5) Do not comfort, pet or fuss over the cats where the dog can see it from his crate. Especially don’t do this after the dog has barked or lunged at the cat. Correct only the dog. This is because you do not want the dog to see the cat as your possession. 6) Accustom the dog to a muzzle while it is hanging out in its crate. It will be muzzled when it goes to the vet or is groomed (even if we don’t see it, it happens), so this way the dog is used to a muzzle. Leave it on for 10 – 15 minutes at a time if it isn’t hot. If it’s hot, the dog must not be muzzled because it can’t pant. The muzzle is only a temporary tool. But the muzzle must be used for the cat’s sake. 7) After 10-14 days where the dog does not bark or lunge at the cat and the cat is comfortable walking around the crate, it’s … read more »

Response:

HOWEDY dee,

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour,

The Puppy Wizard sez you’re in EXXXCELLENT company! never having had one before.

The Puppy Wizard has over forty years specializing in temperament and behavior problems and protection trainin in mostly giant breed working / family dogs. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness.

Your kats are deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME cause you punish and scold them. That’s HOWE COME your dog is HOWETA CONTROL. A friend moved in with his six year old female sheltie last October. The dog grew up with cats … and was abandoned with them. We first noticed that Michelle (yes, she came with the name) would become agressive towards the cats when she had food and they came near her.

That’s cause you correct her… This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room.

That’s the result of punishment. The dog’s owner has made a vet appointment for her feeling that she needs medication. I think this is absolutely wrong

INDEEDY. Perhaps the money would be better spent on a shock collar so you can train IT. (even though I worry about my cats!).

All the MOORE reason to HURT the dog. I’ve fallen in love with the dog too

INDEEDY. So you came here to ask HOWER dog lovers for advice. and don’t want to see her needlessly medicated.

She could murder your kats or get an eye put HOWET. I’d appreciate any suggestions that anyone can make regarding modifying her behaviour.

You been takin your anti psychotic medications, dee? Try takin them with a little sumpthin to eat and wait an HOWER for them to kick in before interactin with folks… Thanks!

Your welcome. Dee

HOWEDY dee,

That does sound scary. I was just wondering about h0p yesterday. Thanks for thinking of him AG. He recovered quickly and is doing really well right now.

Your kat is having seizures from STRESS. He’s so lovey dovey and excited that he just bit a hole in my arm and he hardly has any teeth left!

Yeah. That’s ‘lovey dovey’ for ya… No..no one is paying any attention to the kids.

Of curse not! Your animals are DYIN from stress related DIS-EASES. There is another mail list that I imagine most everyone is chatting on

diddler got a new private list for HOWER animal lovers. until the kids move on..and if they don’t…no big.

Right. You can go hang HOWET with diddler and her pals… I don’t get the thrill of trolling or flooding.

Right. You hide from the INFORMATION that SCARES YOU. Maybe you need to be 10 to appreciate it

INDEED. A ten year old child would not fear not hurting and intimidating animals. AAh, great, could you mail me and tell me what newsgroup to go to?

INDEEDY. Glad you had a mostly good vacation.

Yeah. The kat didn’t like returning to his source of anxiety. Thanks, I love the ocean

LikeWIZE. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dee Actually, I borrowed the vets office kitten once for a couple days for school education on pet care and safe handling as well as responsible pet ownership. I kept the kitten over night in a crate within a crate and yet my dog (yes, Angelic Danny, as well as Taya and Toby tore that kittne to threads from between the crate bars. (apparently he stuck his paws through the crate to bat at the dogs. I was out doing yard work and rushed in to find the little kittens pieces and parts being torn through by ALL the dogs. I called my girl friend to come get my dogs. I screamed displeasure, and stalked out with the kitten. Danny, et al spent 3 days in a kennel until I finally felt like I could interact with them without doing bodily harm. All three dogs were never touched, but knew they had done something so unspeakable that I wouldn’t associate with them and they got banished. To this day, Taya (mom and Dad’s dog) and Danny will not look at a cat. When confronted with one, Danny wees himself and cowers hiding behind me for help. I’m not saying this would work this way with all dogs, But mom and dad now have a house cat, and she has never been harmed by any of the dogs. Danny is there all the time, unsupervised, and has no interest in harming the cat. DIDDY ON CATS (shoot, don’t trap) Xenia Ohio Feb 15 2002 Newsgroups: alt.animals.furtrapping …. If I can get him away from the Olympics, I’ll have him answer that. He doesn’t know how to change the identity on the computer, so if "I" answer this post… it’s really Jeff. And no…. we went to watch. He sold nothing. btw.. are these "CATS" feral domestic cats? (sorry not familiar with Oklahoma) (I just shoot the DSH cats. Jeff caught a couple cats last summer while nuisance trapping an orchard, but it wasn’t intentional) — diddy BUT IF YOU DO TRAP, DO IT RIGHT (The cat went nuts….they weren’t supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this situation). You know I’m a cat abuser because I let my cat out. Alison Well, it totally depends upon where you live, as to whether or not doing so is in the best interest of your animal. Abuser isn’t a term I would use, and I am a "cat group" regular. Here it would be abuse. If you like your cat you keep it home. I run a state authorized and monitored nuisance animal trapline. This morning there was a cat in a snare. Ordinarily, an animal caught in a snare can be released unharmed. One of the animals I am targeting is coyotes (and the complaint was that coyotes were killing area cats) Duh.. If your cats are becoming lunch for wild animals, to me .. It makes sense to keep your cats in where they can’t become lunch.. whatever. Regarding this cat in the snare. It went nuts. It leaped, and tangled itself, and most certainly strangulated it’s intestines. It had the snare pulled tight down to the diameter of a dime (just large enough to encircle the spine) around the waist area. This cats snarled, and attacked. Trying to extricate this cat was exceedingly difficult, not to mention dangerous. Because I feared damage to the intestines and death of the gut, I imagined this cat was not likely to survive. It would have been much simpler to dispatch the unfortunate cat and take out the dead body. Instead, this cat wore a collar. it deserved a chance, and the owner deserved closure. (no id on the collar) . It escaped, just as I released it and it couldn’t be taken to the vet for examination. I will probably never know if this particular cat survives the experience or not. People in the area were aware that trapping was being done and apparently still let their cats run free, both endangered by the traps and by the coyotes being targeted that are causing a problem with their cat population. Had that cat not been wearing a collar, I would not have tried to release this hostile cat. Releasing it may not have been a kindness, but then… cats weren’t supposed to be attracted to this type of trap, in this position, and then they weren’t supposed to go ape, to get themselves in this situation. If you like your pet, you keep them home. Two nights ago, Reka started acting frantic about 11pm. I let her out. It’s coyote breeding season, and she is fascinated by them. I assumed she wanted to go out and listen to them howling. I brought her in, and she spent the night franticly and desperately demanding to go out. After about 4am, I finally put her in the barn, locked securely in a horse stall for the night. She came in by morning, and had a normal active, playful day. Last night, at 11pm, She franticly DEMANDED to go out. I let her out, and brought her in. At midnight, she DEMANDED to be let out. I let her out, but I went out to the barn and got a crate, and decided she could spend the rest of the night in the crate. We were NOT going to do a repeat of the previous night AGAIN. At 3am, she whined so loudly, I then decided not to allow her to set a precedence of this type of behavior. So I took her crate out to the heated gun shop and decided to let her act out her bad behavior in peace, and send a message that her obnoxious behavior was not going to be tolerated. This morning at 6am, I went out, and she had vomited (normal looking dog food) and defecated in her crate (not normal for Reka, but then, She normally didn’t sleep in a crate, NEVER gets corrected (she never does anything to GET corrected for) and was probably nerves from the outside experience, plus reprimand and solitary confinement.) I let her in the house while I cleaned the cage. Hoping I had made my point. She acted healthy and normal, and playful and chipper. But then I noticed a spot of blood on the bathroom

Response:

HOWEDY dee,

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour,

The Puppy Wizard will be the first to tell you it woudn’t matter if you did, cause you’d be DEAD WRONG anyHOWE. never having had one before.

Well, there’s LOTS of heelpful folks to ask here abHOWETS. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness.

Your kats have The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME like professor SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for 5 seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes of reflection" dermer, associate professor of research in the ANAL-ytic BehaviorISM department at UofWI, just a hop skip an jump across the Potomac. A friend moved in with his six year old female sheltie last October. The dog grew up with cats … and was abandoned with them. We first noticed that Michelle (yes, she came with the name) would become agressive towards the cats when she had food and they came near her.

Oh? NO PROBLEMO! Does Michelle have a good solid ‘NO!’ command?: professor SCRUFF SHAKE: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works." That’s HOWE COME his dog has OCD behaviors and is deathly ill from The Puppy Wizard’s SYNDROME, like your kats. This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food,

You mean, kinda like sibling rivalry. That’s caused by PUNISHING Michelle when she tries to molest the kats. Your efforts to intimidate and force control of her has made her fear and hate the kats cause they get her in trHOWEBLE. even when they’re just trying to walk across the room.

Yeah. That’s HOWE COME we "always TRY to use positive methods," sez professor SCRUFF SHAKE. The dog’s owner has made a vet appointment for her feeling that she needs medication.

That’s sheer idiocy. What medication is gonna make a scared dog friendly when you’re only gonna punish and intimidate IT when she looks at the kats anyHOWE??? I think this is absolutely wrong

The Puppy Wizard just sez "NO!" to drugs. (even though I worry about my cats!).

As well you should, if you don’t have the intellect to HOWEtwit the cunning of the domestic puppy dog even after The Puppy Wizard and ALL HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students tell you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE. I’ve fallen in love with the dog too

Good. Then you’ll do ANYTHING to SAVE IT from the needle. Won’t you… and don’t want to see her needlessly medicated.

Medication may only lower the dog’s inhibition and make her attack the kats MOORE vigorHOWEsly. I’d appreciate any suggestions that anyone can make regarding modifying her behaviour.

The Puppy Wizard will provide the most highly recommended university behaviorIST’S work for your edification and benefit of your dogs and kats: Thanks!

You’re quite welcome. Dee

P.S. Let’s keep this amongst HOWErselves, The Puppy Wizard doesn’t want to get a reputation for givin BAD ADVICE. GOOD LUCK!: Differential Reinforcement – http://www.usu.edu/teachall/text/behavior/LRBIpdfs/Differential.pd f HOWEDY People, Here’s professor "SCRUFF SHAKE and SCREAM ‘NO!’ into ITS face for five seconds and lock IT in a box for ten minutes reflection" dermer of the department of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI’s DRO BULLSHIT, JERRYIZED. Level 1: Positive Interaction Procedures 1 LRBI Checklist Differential Reinforcement Definition Things to Do Select behaviors to be decreased or increased. Select alternative, incompatible, or communicative behaviors to be taught. Determine time interval. Set criterion. Ignore inappropriate behaviors. Monitor the student’s performance.

BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! Differential Reinforcement Differential reinforcement is the reinforcement of one form of behavior and not another, or the reinforcement of a response under one condition but not another.

Instead of TRAINING or EXXXTINGUISHING the behaviors NEARLY INSTANTLY as taught in your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual, HOWER university trained EXXXPERTS dance arHOWEND the problem behaviors struggling to control themselves long engough for the subject to GET OLD AND DIE, before ever successfully rehabilitating IT. Differential reinforcement uses positive reinforcement

"Positive reinforcement" can be scientifically construed to mean HURT the subject… professor SCRUFF SHAKE dermer recommends: "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog’s mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works." to differentiate or separate appropriate student behavior from inappropriate behavior

ALL behavior problems are the same same same same. by increasing one while decreasing the other.

If a behavior cannot be changed or EXXXTINGUISHED NEARLY INSTANTLY is cause the EXXXPERT is doin sumpthin WRONG. Level 1: Positive Interaction Procedures 2 LRBI Checklist Differential Reinforcement

BWEEEAAAHAHAHAHHAAAA!!! There are six strategies that comprise or make up differential reinforcement: These behaviors should be objectively defined and must be observable and measurable. For DRO, DRI, DRA, and DRC, there will be a specific behavior to decrease, such as talk-outs, hitting, not following directions, out of seat, disrupting other students, or tantrums.

BWEEEEAHAHAHAHHAAA!!! For DRH, there will be a specific behavior to increase, such as contributing in class, positive social interactions, getting to class on time, or task completion. Select behaviors to be decreased or increased.

The behaviorists are waltzin us by HOWER willies again. DRL problem behaviors appropriate behaviors D R H Level 1: Positive Interaction Procedures 3 LRBI Checklist Differential Reinforcement For DRA, define an alternative behavior(s).

Giving alternate behaviors often increases the inapupriate behavior so the VICTIM can get the ALTERNATE behavior… as a REWARD. This is any behavior that can serve as an alternative to the inappropriate behavior.

IOW, we’re WASTING HOWER TIME and EFFORT on ineffective inapupraiate attempts to control behaviors by BRIBERY and AVOIDANCE. For example, working on an assignment is an alternative behavior (DRA) to wandering around the classroom.

BWWEHEHEHEHAAAAA!!! That AIN’T gonna work with a hyperactive HOWETA CONTROL student, like The Puppy Wizard. For DRI, select and define an incompatible behavior.

Like being sent to the principle’s office where The Puppy Wizard can get an occasional peek up the secretary’s dress and play with the copy machine. Select alternative, incompatible, or communicative behaviors to be taught.

Gettin sent into the hallway is a good alternate behavior for a student like The Puppy Wizard. Select alternative, incompatible, or communicative behaviors to be taught.

That AIN’T GONNA WORK if you got a STUBBORN CHILD or BAD DOG. The time interval for all differential reinforcement procedures specifies the time limits for a behavior to occur.

The VICTIM is gonna determine the TIME… "every thing has it’s season." The time interval can be from a few seconds to 1 or 2 hours. For example, when using DRO for talk -outs, the time interval might be 10 minutes for a reinforcer to be earned.

BWEEHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! Better send the VICTIM to the principle’s office cause THAT ain’t gonna work… When using the DRH procedure to increase classroom contributions, the time interval might be 30 minutes or one class period.

BWEEEEAAHAHAHAHAHAA!!! It generally helps to set smaller time intervals when initially starting a differential reinforcement program.

Like WON second? Determine time interval.

You’re HOWETA time, professors. The criterion is the number of behaviors that must occur during the specified time interval to earn a reinforcer.

BWEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEEE!!! The Puppy Wizard sez SHOVE IT. Little Johnny was bein offered a cookie and milk at snack time. Teacher sez "Johnny, would you like a cookie?" Johnny sez "SHOVE IT." Teacher calls Johnny’s mother and sez: "Johnny was rude when asked if he’d like his cookies and milk today." Johnny’s mother sez "FUCK HIM. LET HIM STARVE." For DRO, the criterion is always 0 inappropriate behaviors. For DRL, the number is set lower than the behavior naturally occurs.

BWEHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! The Puppy Wizard sez … read more »

Response:

I’ll be the first to admit that I don’t know much about dog behaviour, never having had one before. I have a household of five cats, four of which suffer varying degrees of illness. A friend moved in with his six year old female sheltie last October. The dog grew up with cats …and was abandoned with them. We first noticed that Michelle (yes, she came with the name) would become agressive towards the cats when she had food and they came near her. This behaviour has escalated over the past few months to actually snapping and lunging at the cats even when she doesn’t have food, even when they’re just trying to walk across the room. The dog’s owner has made a vet appointment for her feeling that she needs medication. I think this is absolutely wrong (even though I worry about my cats!). I’ve fallen in love with the dog too and don’t want to see her needlessly medicated. I’d appreciate any suggestions that anyone can make regarding modifying her behaviour. Thanks! Dee

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Snoring – What can I do, usually things do not work.

Question:

Hello everyone, I snore, well according to my gf, its very loud. I did some research, and the usual treatments are: 1. Sleep on your side/stomach 2. Lose weight. But I have a problem with those two: 1. I have a bad back and shoulders from various sports injuries. If I sleep on my stomach, I have back pain, if I sleep on my side, my shoulder bothers me. 2. I am 5′10, about 160lbs, I dont think I can lose much more weight, in fact Ive been trying to increase my weight a bit. What other options can I try? I do not know if its sleep apnea or not. I do not have excessive daytime sleepiness, just the usual sleepiness that I am sure everyone who stays up late watching tv feels. I DO know, that I am a mouth breather, its just habit for some reason, my nose isnt stuffed up, its just something I always did. How can I change it over while I am sleeping? Thank you

Response:

Do you stay up late because you like to or do you feel even more tired if you sleep a full night? Ken W "Mike" <mike1ch…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:b9ddd551.0402020853.56189a26@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello everyone, > I snore, well according to my gf, its very loud. > I did some research, and the usual treatments are: > 1. Sleep on your side/stomach > 2. Lose weight. > But I have a problem with those two: > 1. I have a bad back and shoulders from various sports injuries. If I > sleep on my stomach, I have back pain, if I sleep on my side, my > shoulder bothers me. > 2. I am 5′10, about 160lbs, I dont think I can lose much more weight, > in fact Ive been trying to increase my weight a bit. > What other options can I try? > I do not know if its sleep apnea or not. I do not have excessive > daytime sleepiness, just the usual sleepiness that I am sure everyone > who stays up late watching tv feels. > I DO know, that I am a mouth breather, its just habit for some reason, > my nose isnt stuffed up, its just something I always did. > How can I change it over while I am sleeping? > Thank you

Response:

"Ken" <knjw…@charte.net> wrote in message <news:101th7ljtmsd9ae@corp.supernews.com>… > Do you stay up late because you like to or do you feel even more tired if > you sleep a full night?

I dont think so…I stay up watching tv, reading, etc. I have bad sleep habits, I stay up until 1am on weekdays, wake up at 7:30. weekends, I stay up until 2ish, wake up at 11-12 (bad I know) So I am not sure what to do about my snoring

Response:

In article <b9ddd551.0402020853.56189…@posting.google.com>, mike1ch…@yahoo.com says… > Hello everyone, > I snore, well according to my gf, its very loud.

<<snippage>> > What other options can I try? > I do not know if its sleep apnea or not. I do not have excessive > daytime sleepiness, just the usual sleepiness that I am sure everyone > who stays up late watching tv feels.

Have you tried sleeping in a slightly raised position? As you’ve already found out snoring may be positional, and if you have problems with stomach/side sleeping using one of the wedge-type pillows may help.

Response:

"Mike" <mike1ch…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

The only way to find out for sure if you’re snoring is attriibuted to OSA is through a sleep study. Does you’re Girl Friend notice any breaks /periods of silence in your snoring due to you stopping breathing? Not all sleep apneaics are aware of these stoppages and not all sleep apneaics necessarily feel overly tired… — Frankie To Reply By E-Mail Remove ’MY SPLEEN’ http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea ————————————————————————- FIGHT BACK AGAINST SPAM! Download Spam Inspector, the Award Winning Anti-Spam Filter http://mail.giantcompany.com

Response:

> Have you tried sleeping in a slightly raised position? As you’ve already > found out snoring may be positional, and if you have problems with > stomach/side sleeping using one of the wedge-type pillows may help.

You mean raised like…using 2-3 pillows instead of 1? I AM using an OLD pillow, like 10 years old, kinda flat.

Response:

> The only way to find out for sure if you’re snoring is attriibuted to OSA is > through a sleep study.

Im not sure if I can swing that by my health insurance plan. In the past 4 years, Ive had 2 MRIs and a Stress Test, lol. > Does you’re Girl Friend notice any breaks /periods of silence in your > snoring due to you stopping breathing?

Dont know, I asked her, and she said she didnt notice it, BUT…all I know is she complains about not sleeping. So she is not exactly coherant in the middle of the night.

Response:

One thing I did notice. This weekend, I was dozing (you know when you wake, but dont want to get out of bed yet) And I was dreaming (I never remember dreams, maybe once every 2 months?) and I was not sure if I did this in REAL LIFE or in my DREAM. But I felt like I was talking, then all of a sudden, I would take a deep breath, you know like you were underwater for awhile, then came up for air. And I would have the noise too…the screetchy deep breathe noise. This is the first time I have EVER experienced anything like this. and I have been snoring my whole life.

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

always waking up soon after sleeping -1st post

Question:

Hello, My doc said I have "Restless Leg Syndrome". She (and later the he) gave me a perscrip for Quinin sulfate. Anyone else? ME

Response:

Hi Malvin Of course we can come up with common sense logic to try to make the Doctor see he needs to refer you, but I have dealt with doctors like that and it is a waste of your time. Depending on where you live, is it possible to get another GP? ( nearly impossible in Calgary). If you want to email me privately re where you live and talk about maybe getting into a sleep lab, please do so. You can reach me at paulav at telusplanet dot net. Of course no spaces and @ for at ; the logical way. Maybe together we can find something for you. I won’t see my doctor for another year unless I get problems again but I am sure they can help me out with info for you. I expect mine knows about other area’s. Please don’t give up, it is your health. Some clinic’s will accept private patients but it is expensive. But maybe just getting on a waiting list can be used to force present doctor to refer you; maybe by nicely letting him know in writing, the consequences to him if you would indeed be dx with a sleep disorder while he refused to refer you to one. Even if you find another doctor, being already on a list might make him/her see you are serious and suppose they find something and he said no need to refer. makes him look really bad. the moment the refer you no longer are private, but who knows you could even keep your spot Let me know if I can help further. wishing you luck. List below coming from sleep institute of ontario ( on the net) Indications of Sleep Disorders Symptoms of Sleep Disorders include, but are not limited to, one or more of the following: Notice the second one; trouble falling or STAYING asleep. Excessive daytime sleepiness Trouble falling or staying asleep Irritability Loud snoring Morning headaches Depression, reduced sense of well-being Forgetfulness Lack of energy and motivation Leg cramps or continuous, uncontrollable urge to move legs Impotence Anxiety Difficulty learning or concentrating Obesity High blood pressure Awakening with a choking feeling or gasping for air Racing heartbeat during the night Pauses in breathing during the night Restlessness while sleeping Nighttime sweating Frequent awakenings Loss of muscle control associated with strong emotion, such as while laughing or angry Symptoms are often reported not by the patient, but by his or her bed partner. If you or someone you know has any of these symptoms regularly, you should seek the opinion of your family doctor or healthcare provider. An overnight sleep study (polysomnogram) may be warranted. For most sleep disorders, a polysomnogram is required to make an accurate diagnosis. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mal wrote: > Hi Paula, > If you see your sleep specialist regularly, can you ask if my symptoms > (waking up very soon after sleeping for no reason) is something they look > at? My family doctor said they won’t.

Response:

I know you’ve been given several answers, but you are describing ME and MY problem that required me to get sleep. It turned out that I had PLMD AND RLS. It’s not a joke. Your doctor can help you to get to the appropriate sleep specialist—but there is a lot to learn on the ‘net about these disorders. Good luck. Try a google for RLS and PLMD and just see what profiles fit. Lis "LightChucker" <chuckdec…@comcast.net> wrote in message

news:ec0cbbdd.0401271656.31ca73ad@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >The reason I have to get up is because my body gets so restless, my > legs > > start getting restless and aching and I don’t to waken my missus and so > > I go downstairs. > John, forgive me if you already know this, but you have a condition > that is called "Restless Leg Syndrome". I have it too, so I know how > you feel. Fortunately, I have found a treatment that works for me (at > least, for now). > * Are you seeing a sleep specialist for your RLS? > * Have you had your ferritan level checked? > * What medications have you tried? > I know there are a lot of people reading this that don’t realize that > there are treatments for this cursed condition. We even have an "RLS > Foundation". Look it up on the Web using Google.com. If you have RLS > it will be a real "eye-opener" (pun intended). > Chuck

Response:

> …but you have a condition that is called "Restless Leg Syndrome".

making a diagnosis based on "If your legs are restless or ache rub some rubbing cream" is a bit much. People can have muscle aches or restless legs without having a sleep disorder – I’m not saying the original poster does or doesn’t have RLS – just that you can’t ASSUME from one comment – there could be many reasons….. vitamin deficiency for example > I know there are a lot of people reading this that don’t realize that

actually, most people here probably have heard of the condition, it’s not rare and is discussed here reguarly — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

> > The thing that really KILLS me is when I go to sleep and wake up abou 30 > > minutes later. Then I’m up for another 2-4 hours.

Hi Malvin you need to get to the bottom of WHY you’re waking up……..get to the cause before trying to deal with the symptoms. If this is an ongoing problem I think it’s time you went to see a sleep specialist. You say you’ve tried sleep hygiene so this site probably isn’t going to help a lot but maybe tehre’s something different there you haven’t tried http://talhost.net/sleep/insomnia.htm again….. it’s probably time to see a sleep specialist to get a sleep study done to find out the CAUSE of your waking. — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

> It was my understanding that PLMD ( periodic leg movement disorder) is a sleep > disorder and RLS is an awake disorder. Do I have this wrong?

yup, RLS is definately a sleep disorder although some symptoms manifest in an awake state — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles

Response:

Hi Paula, If you see your sleep specialist regularly, can you ask if my symptoms (waking up very soon after sleeping for no reason) is something they look at? My family doctor said they won’t. I’m quite frustrated with him actually, have a look at our conversation and tell me what you think Me: One thing bothering me is my insomnia. I took your advice from last time and I am quite disciplined. I don

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Ophan Medical seeks volunteers with narcolepsy for clinical trial

Question:

What a shame I’m so far away I think I would be a great study candidate, I think I have a wee bit of N, but Doc won’t give me an MSLT in fact he won’t do anything about my daytime sleepiness!……….Hi Scoop longtime no see

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

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Driving — this frightened me witless!!!

Question:

Bob Gootee <goo…@comcast.net> wrote: > They have over at TechTV a guy that did build a coffee maker in a > computer. They have some wild stuff over there from time to time.

I have seen a number of coffee makers buit into cases over the years. They did one at SGI with an Indigo case a number of years ago, in fact I believe it was an expresso maker! I might give some thought to a hot chocolate maker if I can lose a lot of weight first. A modified expersso maker might do the job. I will need to figure out an air tight container to hold the marshmallows so they don’t get stale too soon or pick up excess moisture on humid days. Or I could get a few of those solid state cooler chips and some insulation and turn it into a mini-fridge for sodas and other drinks. Too many choices. :-)> Ross

Response:

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 18:58:27 +0100, "Martin Basil" <martin.ba…@ifb.co.uk> wrote: >Ian, >Thanks for the warning as I have not yet notified the DVLA of my condition >which is controlled however now it has been diagnosed. >Odd really, until I was diagnosed and the condition treated I was at liberty >to drive and was a danger to other road users. Now I (and you) have been >diagnosed and treated I am no longer a dnager to others but my insurance >will probably increase and the DVLA need to know about my condition. >Regards >Martin

This is one of the oddities of the system. I didn’t experience sleepiness when driving so informed the DVLA when the consultant officially diagnosed OSA. His advice was to tell them of the condition and that it was being treated and controlled. He had never run into any issues from the DVLA if notification is handled in this way, even in the case of commercial drivers, with whom they tend to be more picky. However, he also offered to either write to them or confirm treatment if necessary. In the event, I simply downloaded the form from the DVLA web site, filled it in and faxed it to them. They responded a couple of days later in writing confirming that all was fine and there would be no restrictions. This was without contacting the consultant. As far as insurance is concerned, I have policies with Zurich and with Norwich Union at present. I contacted my broker and explained the situation, and asked them to notify each insurance company, confirming the DVLA’s OK and to ask each insurer to confirm in writing that they had been notified. Basically I don’t trust insurance companies one millimetre to not try and renege in the event of a claim. Both initially just re-issued the certificate with a remark that insurance was dependent on having a licence from the DVLA, but I thought that that was standard anyway. There was no change of premium. I asked the broker to push them on giving me a specific letter, mentioning the condition, and that there were no premium changes, plus any specific terms and conditions. This was done, and they simply stated that cover was valid as long as the DVLA did not impose any restrictions. Had one suggested a premium increase, I would have gone elsewhere. There is really no justification for an increased premium for somebody who is being successfully treated for OSA, so if they were to try that one on, they should lose the business. In any case, if you think about it, as you are now being treated, their risk has effectively been reduced. If you consider the large number of people with OSA who either don’t realise it or are not aware of the issues, or who the NHS continues to fail (largely through waste and because OSA is not sexy medicine), the insurance companies risks are far higher there. However you *must* tell the DVLA immediately. It is a criminal offence not to do so and can result in an invitation from Her Majesty to visit one of her country residences. .andy To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Response:

Thanks to all for your responses so far, and I shall respond in turn at greater length later — What the DVLA (and you, my esteemed friends!) don’t know is that I was in the Police (Edinburgh) for 15 years and have therefore been trained at a higher level of driving (equivalent to the Advanced Driving Test) than your average "Joe Public". This whole episode has spooked me SO much! I have twice in my life "fallen asleep at the wheel"; fortunately, on both occasions I managed to become fully awake before I did any damage to other road users, property, or myself. I’d also like to add that both these incidents happened when I was 19 or 20 and considered myself invincible and that "sleep is for cissies". This was also before my sleep apnoea became as pronounced as in adulthood. (By "adulthood", I mean when one starts to sprout ear-hairs, etc…!). To quote Billy Connolly: "God is SO clever! HOW did He know I’d need all this extra hair in my ears and nostrils when I hit 40???" }:->

HOW we learn in later life!

Response:

Charles Perrin <c.l.perrin…@att.net> wrote: > At least it’s not a problem with the cupholder not working. > "Cupholder?" > "Yes, the one that says CD-ROM on it."

One lady in the computer user group that I belong to bought one of the Macintosh models assembled and sold by SuperMac that was built in a medium tower case. She went to the local computer ’surplus’ store and bought the least expensive CD ROM drive and mounted under the CD ROM drive in the case already. Hooked up only the power. She then had her own fully functional cup holder. Brought it to one of the meetings to show it off. It was a big hit. Apple solved the problem by going to the slot loading drives, no try to slide out and use as a cupholder. I just got a couple of SGI Indigo’s and one is a 3k that I am thinking of re-purposing and the possibility of a coffee maker comes to mind except that I don’t drink the stuff. Have to find something else to do with it. Ross Bernheim

Response:

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 13:44:02 GMT, eric wrote: >Charles, >What is an ADR and where can I buy one?

ADR – American Depositary Receipt. It’s a fancy name for a foreign stock that trades on a US stock exchange. One that comes to mind is TEVA – Teva Pharmaceutical Industries (Israeli). Most of their business is in the US and Europe, and most of it is generic drugs. They’ve gone up 72% over the past 13 months! — Offshore a CEO: buy an ADR!

Response:

Ian Pettigrew <ian-pettig…@ukonline.co.uk> wrote: > To quote Billy Connolly

Quite a funny fellow. I quite like some of his songs, he does particularly funny country and western songs. Ross

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Ross Bernheim wrote: > Charles Perrin <c.l.perrin…@att.net> wrote: >>At least it’s not a problem with the cupholder not working. >>"Cupholder?" >>"Yes, the one that says CD-ROM on it." > One lady in the computer user group that I belong to bought > one of the Macintosh models assembled and sold by SuperMac > that was built in a medium tower case. She went to the local > computer ’surplus’ store and bought the least expensive CD > ROM drive and mounted under the CD ROM drive in the case > already. Hooked up only the power. She then had her own > fully functional cup holder. Brought it to one of the meetings to > show it off. It was a big hit. > Apple solved the problem by going to the slot loading drives, no > try to slide out and use as a cupholder. I just got a couple of SGI > Indigo’s and one is a 3k that I am thinking of re-purposing and the > possibility of a coffee maker comes to mind except that I don’t drink > the stuff. Have to find something else to do with it. > Ross Bernheim

Ross, Check this – <http://www.xoxide.com/cili12vb1.html> It’s for real. They have over at TechTV a guy that did build a coffee maker in a computer. They have some wild stuff over there from time to time. Bob

Response:

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:55:31 GMT, Gary Rimar wrote: >I have a better way. You can be persistent without resorting to rage. >I had a client that could never get through to Dell technical support (for a >warranty issue), and I was the one she would call when her computer broke. >I had the box with me one day when I had a bunch of computer work to do (on >my own computer), so I decided to "camp."

At least it’s not a problem with the cupholder not working. "Cupholder?" "Yes, the one that says CD-ROM on it." <wink> — Offshore a CEO: buy an ADR!

Response:

On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:55:31 GMT, Gary Rimar wrote: >I have a better way.

So does our computer support group. One of our conference rooms had a Post-It Note on the door this morning. It had written on it: "Weekly IT meeting cancelled." I kid you not. — Offshore a CEO: buy an ADR!

Response:

"Ian Pettigrew" <ian-pettig…@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message

Ian, from what I have heard and read on the DVLA web site this is par for the course. In fact they may have been generous with 3 days notice. I believe you would be classed as a ‘commercial driver’. > You’ll also probably be unaware that I reside in a rural area (SE Scotland) > that is several miles away from any local or major bus routes. > Also, without consulting my General Practitioner DVLA appears to have > assumed that my condition is so serious as to prevent me from driving > safely. This is not the case; my sleep apnoea is not too severe… just 45 > apnoeas per hour.

They have this knee jerk reaction to sleep disorders. Revoke first, enquire later. > When I informed them of my condition (via the Web) they sent me a form to > complete. I endorsed the form to the effect that my sleep apnoea was > "uncontrolled" at that time although I was undergoing treatment, tests, and > sleep observation in a laboratory environment.

I think that the ‘uncontrolled’ statement brought about the reaction of revoking your licence. The DVLA have stated in brochures and their web site that you must return your licence as soon as you are diagnosed with Sleep Apnoea. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In a panic I called them as soon as I read the letter today — I had thought > it was just a reminder about my Tax Disc. The lady was not for turning — > despite my pleas that I was now undergoing C-PAP treatment she still > insisted that I would have to return my licence. > I then did something I have not done for a very long time — I totally lost > the plot and relinquished control of my reason altogether — I shouted, > threatened, and swore like a trooper, screamed the place down and demanded > to be put through to her supervisor… I really cannot stand the "I demand > to speak with your superior" types, but now I had joined their ranks. > I basically said, "Look — You are not GETTING my f#cking licence! What > about all the people out there who have neglected to fulfil their civic > duties, or whatever? Those who, despite having worse conditions than mine, > continue to drive? How can you judge me to be "causing a liability" when > your Senior Medical Advisor has not examined me in person, or sought the > opinion of my GP? Three days’ notice to return my licence? Go f#ck > yourselves!" (Please excuse the references to actual language used).

Some 2 years ago I heard a Dr. Helen Majors speak at a conference. She heads up the medical panel in the DVLA who deal with sleep disorders. Tough talker. The stats at the time were something like 96% of licences are reinstated for sleep apnoea sufferers after investigation. She also mentioned that things were tougher for ‘commercial drivers’ who would have to have annual medical clearance from their sleep clinic that they were compliant with treatment and did not pose a risk on the road. > Well, she said she would go and "consult the team"… Several minutes later > she returned and informed me that they would suspend the Order of Revocation > and send me another form to complete in the meantime. All I have to do is > re-complete it, but to the effect that I now have the C-PAP machine in > operation (that is, my condition is "controlled").

They may have relaxed the rule a little, however double check that you don’t need certification from your sleep clinic. They may have to confirm that you are compliant…………..and might not be quick to do so. > I tell you — I have never been so frightened in many a year. > The moral of this is: I’ve always dealt with people along the lines of, > "Shouting, swearing, threatening, and losing the plot will get you nowhere." > Well it seemed to work for me, on this occasion; so perhaps I should review > my tried and tested methods on dealing with apparatchiks?

Great to hear of someone who ‘beat the system’. Be careful of terms like ‘uncontrolled’ etc. With the large number of high profile road accidents which are being attributed to sleep drivers and untreated disorders Big Brother has gone into overdrive. A friend of mine in the UK (sleep apnoea suuferer), who is involved with a support group told me that the UK Traffic Police can ‘force/order’ a driver to undergo a sleep test if they believe he is a danger on the road through excessive daytime sleepiness. Dan.

Response:

Charles, What is an ADR and where can I buy one? I would love to be rid of my CEO, but the only solution I have found is an UZI. regards, eric pearson db2e…@nospammindspring.com On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 04:23:07 GMT, Charles Perrin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<c.l.perrin…@att.net> wrote: >On Wed, 10 Sep 2003 03:55:31 GMT, Gary Rimar wrote: >>I have a better way. >So does our computer support group. >One of our conference rooms had a Post-It Note on the door this >morning. It had written on it: "Weekly IT meeting cancelled." >I kid you not.

Response:

Ian, Thanks for the warning as I have not yet notified the DVLA of my condition which is controlled however now it has been diagnosed. Odd really, until I was diagnosed and the condition treated I was at liberty to drive and was a danger to other road users. Now I (and you) have been diagnosed and treated I am no longer a dnager to others but my insurance will probably increase and the DVLA need to know about my condition. Regards Martin "Ian Pettigrew" <ian-pettig…@ukonline.co.uk> wrote in message

news:3f5e3735$0$12654$afc38c87@news.ukonline.co.uk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Scary times indeed! — Many weeks ago I wrote to DVLA (Swansea, Wales, UK), > informing them that I was undergoing treatment for sleep apnoea; there is > another reason for this frank admission, which I won’t go into right now — > if you’re really curious AND you’re an expert on Pensions law, then mail me > privately… > Today I got a letter from DVLA informing me that my driving licence is to be > revoked and must be returned on 12th September. > First of all, a mere three days’ notice to return my licence does not offer > me much opportunity to make alternative arrangements. As you guys are > probably not aware, I am self-employed and my vehicle is necessary for my > work. > You’ll also probably be unaware that I reside in a rural area (SE Scotland) > that is several miles away from any local or major bus routes. > Also, without consulting my General Practitioner DVLA appears to have > assumed that my condition is so serious as to prevent me from driving > safely. This is not the case; my sleep apnoea is not too severe… just 45 > apnoeas per hour. > When I informed them of my condition (via the Web) they sent me a form to > complete. I endorsed the form to the effect that my sleep apnoea was > "uncontrolled" at that time although I was undergoing treatment, tests, and > sleep observation in a laboratory environment. > In a panic I called them as soon as I read the letter today — I had thoug ht > it was just a reminder about my Tax Disc. The lady was not for turning — > despite my pleas that I was now undergoing C-PAP treatment she still > insisted that I would have to return my licence. > I then did something I have not done for a very long time — I totally lost > the plot and relinquished control of my reason altogether — I shouted, > threatened, and swore like a trooper, screamed the place down and demanded > to be put through to her supervisor… I really cannot stand the "I demand > to speak with your superior" types, but now I had joined their ranks. > I basically said, "Look — You are not GETTING my f#cking licence! What > about all the people out there who have neglected to fulfil their civic > duties, or whatever? Those who, despite having worse conditions than mine, > continue to drive? How can you judge me to be "causing a liability" when > your Senior Medical Advisor has not examined me in person, or sought the > opinion of my GP? Three days’ notice to return my licence? Go f#ck > yourselves!" (Please excuse the references to actual language used). > Well, she said she would go and "consult the team"… Several minutes later > she returned and informed me that they would suspend the Order of Revocation > and send me another form to complete in the meantime. All I have to do is > re-complete it, but to the effect that I now have the C-PAP machine in > operation (that is, my condition is "controlled"). > I tell you — I have never been so frightened in many a year. > The moral of this is: I’ve always dealt with people along the lines of, > "Shouting, swearing, threatening, and losing the plot will get you nowhere." > Well it seemed to work for me, on this occasion; so perhaps I should review > my tried and tested methods on dealing with apparatchiks? > It is my sincere wish that none of you ever suffer a day like mine… Take > this post as a friendly warning, should you find yourselves in a similar > position. > Regards, > Ian Pettigrew > East Lothian > Help Wanted: Telepathy (You know where to apply.)

Response:

> The moral of this is: I’ve always dealt with people along the lines of, > "Shouting, swearing, threatening, and losing the plot will get you nowhere." > Well it seemed to work for me, on this occasion; so perhaps I should review > my tried and tested methods on dealing with apparatchiks?

Sorry you had to go through that. I find however, that when i can feel myself getting upset while trying to sort out some mess someone’s created, it’s important to tell the poor sod on the other end of the phone (assuming it’s true) that i’m not angry at THEM, i’m angry at the situation, or whoever it was that caused it. — Beth in Australia (I am not a medical professional and anything stated in my posts is my opinion only unless specified otherwise) =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep Newsgroup Archives http://talhost.net/sleep/archives.htm this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

Response:

"Tal" <sleepbethdisord…@softhome.net> wrote in message

news:bjld8s$ka703$1@ID-148111.news.uni-berlin.de… << > Sorry you had to go through that. I find however, that when i can feel > myself getting upset while trying to sort out some mess someone’s created, > it’s important to tell the poor sod on the other end of the phone (assuming > it’s true) that i’m not angry at THEM, i’m angry at the situation, or > whoever it was that caused it.

Funnily enough — I twice assured her that "this is not personal" as the bile started to rise…

Response:

> Well, she said she would go and "consult the team"… Several minutes later > she returned and informed me that they would suspend the Order of Revocation > and send me another form to complete in the meantime. All I have to do is > re-complete it, but to the effect that I now have the C-PAP machine in > operation (that is, my condition is "controlled").

Sad to say I have found that this is the only way to get a proper response 50% of the time whether it is the DVLA, or my most recent case of call centre phone rage, getting an ADSL line where they insisted that my line was more than 5.5km for the exchange when it was 2km. Needless to say I now have ADSL and they said there records couldn’t possibly be wrong. If I had a

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Half Way There/Apnea?

Question:

<snip I had/have hypoventillation syndrome, and for me the treatment was a BIPAP or CPAP machine.

How does that differ from apnea, do you just not breath deep enough? Were you fatigued or have excessive daytime sleepiness prior to using the CPAP? Did your energy level increase with the machine? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I sleep great wearing it. I only wake up if I have to pee. Before, I’d sleep fitfully, just short naps. I don’t know if this is what you’ll end up with, but it worked wonders for me. Of course, losing weight helped reverse my condition, and it might help yours too. But, I am not a doctor, so … Chuck Demas — Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all, Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.

Response:

Thanks! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – See alt-support.sleep-disorder. Great bunch of people, do some reading there, lots of ideas and recommendations, just what you are looking for. Tracey Oh, Happy Day! Been busy, haven’t posted often, but try to read the ng daily (or most of it). But just had to declare my good news. I’ve finally reached my ‘half way there’ goal! It has taken just under five months – not as quickly as I’d anticipated or hoped, but I *have* arrived! I can’t express enough how truly grateful I am for this support group. I have learned so many tips & tricks here and have tried several of the wonderful recipes posted. I honestly don’t think I’d have been this successful without all of you. So, a big Thanks to all! As for the last half of my LC weight loss journey, I’m certain I’ll reach my final goal. It doesn’t really matter *when*, since I intend to stay on plan and maintain a LC life style. I will get there, sooner or later! Some of you may recall my earlier posts about low energy levels and lack of motivation for much exercise – I’m hoping to experience some changes soon. I’ve recently had a consultation for a sleep study and will be returning the end of next week to get ‘wired up’ for the study. I’ll sure be relieved if it proves my problem is sleep apnea, at least there is treatment for it and a glimmer of hope for some real energy. Some of you have had sleep studies, so I’d like to ask: What was your experience? If you had it to do all over again, what questions would you have asked. How could I be better prepared for the study (i.e. bring own pillow, etc.). Has treatment really made a big difference in your life? Any additional info you’d like to relate. If you feel this is too off topic for this ng, you can e-mail me here: JanisR_at_cox_dot_net I would really appreciate some insight. Who knows, if I become more energetic and get some better exercise, I may reach the last half of my goal sooner than I think!! Again, thanks to all. Janis <ready for my nap, now Atkins 3/17/03

Response:

<snip I’m supposed to have a sleep study too, but since I have a huge problem falling asleep under ideal circumstances, I don’t know that I would sleep at all there–and my daughter would be very disrupted. — Jean B., 12 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Jean, When is your study scheduled? Maybe we can compare notes. I’m sure they’ll give you a Rx for a sleeping pill. Do you suspect apnea or just difficultly getting & staying asleep? How is your present energy level? Keep in touch. I’ll let ya know how my study goes. Janis Atkins 3/17/03

Response:

When? I got the referral and haven’t called back! I thought it would be easier during the summer while my daughter is not in school, but it seems not to be. Do they normally prescribe some sleeping med? That would help…. I KNOW I have apnea. My consciousness of it started out when I was napping on my back, and every time I went to sleep, I would immediately be unable to breathe because my throat would relax. Now I also have a problem, although not as severe, in every other position. I used to at least get to sleep, but now I don’t do that either, so I a) take a very long time getting to sleep, b) have extremely broken sleep, which usually has me awake for long periods in the night, and c) I get up very early. I get VERY little sleep. That means I practically start the day thinking of when I can get a nap. BTW, I have read that lack of sleep can contribute to packing on weight. Seems to be sort-of circular, since taking weight off is beneficial. I am encouraged to read that the situation might improve when I lose enough weight. — Jean B., 12 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jean, When is your study scheduled? Maybe we can compare notes. I’m sure they’ll give you a Rx for a sleeping pill. Do you suspect apnea or just difficultly getting & staying asleep? How is your present energy level? Keep in touch. I’ll let ya know how my study goes. When? I got the referral and haven’t called back! I thought it would be easier during the summer while my daughter is not in school, but it seems not to be. Do they normally prescribe some sleeping med? That would help….

I had/have hypoventillation syndrome, and for me the treatment was a BIPAP or CPAP machine. I sleep great wearing it. I only wake up if I have to pee. Before, I’d sleep fitfully, just short naps. I don’t know if this is what you’ll end up with, but it worked wonders for me. Of course, losing weight helped reverse my condition, and it might help yours too. But, I am not a doctor, so … Chuck Demas — Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all, Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.

Response:

<snip I used to at least get to sleep, but now I don’t do that either, so I a) take a very long time getting to sleep, b) have extremely broken sleep, which usually has me awake for long periods in the night, and c) I get up very early. I get VERY little sleep. That means I practically start the day thinking of when I can get a nap.

Until you have a chance to attend the sleep clinic, here’s what I’ve been doing: I bought ten cheap pillows from Walmart and I sleep propped up. I also take one ibuprophen before bedtime. The pillows are because I drool in the most amazing way – there’s no need to go into graphic detail, but suffice to say that describing it as *copious* is being polite. I’ve woken up a couple times after inhaling a small lake. That hurts. Sometimes it’s scary. It may take a little getting used to, but getting some uninterrupted sleep will be such a relief. April. — "Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax (Pratchett 1988)

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Do they normally prescribe some sleeping med? That would help…. I had/have hypoventillation syndrome, and for me the treatment was a BIPAP or CPAP machine. I sleep great wearing it. I only wake up if I have to pee. Before, I’d sleep fitfully, just short naps. I don’t know if this is what you’ll end up with, but it worked wonders for me. Of course, losing weight helped reverse my condition, and it might help yours too. But, I am not a doctor, so …

Yes, my ENT Dr. thinks my apnea will be almost totally resolved with BIPAP/CPAP. I am somewhat skeptical, but that would be better than throat surgery. And losing weight should help too. Maybe if I procrastinate long enough… — Jean B., 12 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Until you have a chance to attend the sleep clinic, here’s what I’ve been doing: I bought ten cheap pillows from Walmart and I sleep propped up. I also take one ibuprophen before bedtime. The pillows are because I drool in the most amazing way – there’s no need to go into graphic detail, but suffice to say that describing it as *copious* is being polite. I’ve woken up a couple times after inhaling a small lake. That hurts. Sometimes it’s scary. It may take a little getting used to, but getting some uninterrupted sleep will be such a relief.

I have tried a wedge but it was much too high and narrow. Maybe pillows would be better, so I’ll give those a try. As for drool, yes, goes with trying to breathe I think. And it is better than inhaling acid reflux…. <g That’s scary too. Enough to make you bounce out of bed. I always wonder what would happen if I didn’t wake up…. — Jean B., 12 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Response:

My husband has a BiPAP machine. I’m just curious–what makes you think it wouldn’t work for you? Surgery is considered a last resort solution for sleep apnea because the record for them (except for permanent tracheotomies) is quite uneven. Shirley to reply via e-mail remove the trees from my address

Response:

See alt-support.sleep-disorder. Great bunch of people, do some reading there, lots of ideas and recommendations, just what you are looking for. Tracey

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Oh, Happy Day! Been busy, haven’t posted often, but try to read the ng daily (or most of it). But just had to declare my good news. I’ve finally reached my ‘half way there’ goal! It has taken just under five months – not as quickly as I’d anticipated or hoped, but I *have* arrived! I can’t express enough how truly grateful I am for this support group. I have learned so many tips & tricks here and have tried several of the wonderful recipes posted. I honestly don’t think I’d have been this successful without all of you. So, a big Thanks to all! As for the last half of my LC weight loss journey, I’m certain I’ll reach my final goal. It doesn’t really matter *when*, since I intend to stay on plan and maintain a LC life style. I will get there, sooner or later! Some of you may recall my earlier posts about low energy levels and lack of motivation for much exercise – I’m hoping to experience some changes soon. I’ve recently had a consultation for a sleep study and will be returning the end of next week to get ‘wired up’ for the study. I’ll sure be relieved if it proves my problem is sleep apnea, at least there is treatment for it and a glimmer of hope for some real energy. Some of you have had sleep studies, so I’d like to ask: What was your experience? If you had it to do all over again, what questions would you have asked. How could I be better prepared for the study (i.e. bring own pillow, etc.). Has treatment really made a big difference in your life? Any additional info you’d like to relate. If you feel this is too off topic for this ng, you can e-mail me here: JanisR_at_cox_dot_net I would really appreciate some insight. Who knows, if I become more energetic and get some better exercise, I may reach the last half of my goal sooner than I think!! Again, thanks to all. Janis <ready for my nap, now Atkins 3/17/03

Response:

The mask was a bit hard on the bridge of my nose, especially as I’m set to a slight BIPAP rather than total CPAP, so the changes in pressure tend to move the mask a bit, and that wore on the bridge of my nose, cutting it. It has since healed, and it doesn’t cut anymore. (Scar tissue is tough).

You may know this but just in case: you don’t have to use a mask, there are other options. Most CPAP/BiPAP users find the "nasal pillows" or "nasal masks" are most comfortable. If you imagine a vacuum cleaner attachment that looks like it was meant to suck stuff out of your nose, that’s what they look like. <G They’re used with a headgear harness. The best, most comprehensive site on the Web that I know of for CPAP/BiPAP related equipment is: http://www.cpapman.com He sells it all! In particular, he has tons of different headgear, pads, swivels, etc, so that you can get the best, most comfortable fit. If you’re not sure of what will work for you, we’ve found that they are really informative and helpful. NO ONE SHOULD PUT UP WITH AN INTERFACE THAT CAUSES INJURY! If your mask ever causes any discomfort, squawk and keep on squawkin’ til it is fixed. Or do it yerself with the above site. Shirley to reply via e-mail remove the trees from my address

Response:

The advantage of pillows is that you can change the way they are heaped. Sometimes I like’em high, sometimes I like’em all spread out. Sometimes I don’t like so many. Also, I find that I need to have my arms supported, as well as my shoulders. April. — "Things that try to look like things often do look more like things than things. Well known fact." Esmerelda Weatherwax (Pratchett 1988)

Response:

<snip I had/have hypoventillation syndrome, and for me the treatment was a BIPAP or CPAP machine. How does that differ from apnea, do you just not breath deep enough?

Breathing became very shallow, and oxygenation decreased and my blood went acidic. The CO2 levels in my blood became high. I was taking a new medication when I was diagnosed with this. It and the hypoventilation syndrome made me extremely lethargic and altered my mental functioning so much that I was like running on two cylinders instead of all 8 or 16. I was at my doctor’s office for a monitoring of this medication, but I barely was able to drag myself there, and I wasn’t my normal scintillating self. The doctor was concerned, so they sent me to the hospital, and they put me in a room. I fell asleep, and they couldn’t wake me, which freaked them right out. When I finally woke up, I was in the emergency room, with an oxygen mask over my nose/face and they were sticking me in the wrist to get arterial blood samples to run blood gases on. That and a whole bunch of people gathered around me. Were you fatigued or have excessive daytime sleepiness prior to using the CPAP? Did your energy level increase with the machine?

Very fatigued. With the CPAP, I felt so much better, and so much more energized. Without it, if I sleep I get a sort of dull headache or blahness when I wake. I’d also tend to nap a bit during the day before the CPAP. The mask was a bit hard on the bridge of my nose, especially as I’m set to a slight BIPAP rather than total CPAP, so the changes in pressure tend to move the mask a bit, and that wore on the bridge of my nose, cutting it. It has since healed, and it doesn’t cut anymore. (Scar tissue is tough). For me, this machine has been wonderful, and without it my sleeping oxygenation would drop to about 80% while my waking oxygenation is about 95% or higher. With the machine, my sleeping oxygenation is well over 90% now. Initially, when I was first diagnosed, the had me on 3 liters/(time) of oxygen, but I’d lost some weight and stopped that new medication and I improved so that I don’t need oxygen in addition to the CPAP/BIPAP. Sadly, I put the weight back on, but now I’m trying to take it off again, but it’s hard, and I’ve got a lot of weight to lose. Chuck Demas — Eat Healthy | _ _ | Nothing would be done at all, Die Anyway | v | That no one could find fault with it.

Response:

I did not have any problem sleeping all wired up. I was diagnosed with low level sleep apnea. I got a mask and machine and was able to sleep with it.

Did you have an increase in energy? If so, was it immediate or gradual? Was that before you began Atkins? The good news – since I started Adkins -about 3 months ago now, I have lost 27 pounds and according to my S.O., I no longer snore and quit breathing. I no longer use the mask and machine.

Congrats on the weight loss. Good for you, I imagine wearing a mask would be hard to get used to. At this point, I’m willing to try just about anything that will help provide enough energy to get through the day. Also, and this may or may not have anything to do with sleep apnea; I no longer have chronic sinustitus. For the first time in my life, I can breathe through my nose without nasal spray. I think I may have had an allegry to wheat and did not know it. No more wheat products and no more chronic sinus problems.

I experienced that myself and have heard many folks here comment on fewer sinus related problems after reducing wheat and some dairy products. I used to drink a ton of milk but, since LCing, have found I no longer need my Clariton. Thanks for your input, Paul. Janis Atkins 3/17/03

Response:

Thanks for the reply, Sandy. I’m only 5′ 6" so the bed length shouldn’t be a problem, but trying to sleep with all those wires will definitely be a challenge. I have a Rx for a sleeping pill, so that should help. Sounds like your SO may have cured himself with the weight loss! Good luck to you both, hope you’re on the other side of your plateau soon. Janis Atkins 3/17/03 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Greetings! As far as the sleep study – try to get a long enough bed. My 6 foot tall SO couldn’t get comfortable – the bed was too short. Also expect to be wired with many many patches and miles of wires, all of which you will be aware of at first. Makes falling asleep really difficult. My SO tested for sleep apnea…tried the facial mask thingee <g, and couldn’t tolerate it – he was advised he should have surgery, but no two surgeons could agree on the treatment, the kind of surgery, or the outcome…so that was shelved. He started Atkins for blood sugar control and to lose weight, lost 50 pounds (we are now really stalled – need to lose lots more), and also lost most of the sleep apnea/snoring problems! YMMV Sandy Oh, Happy Day! Been busy, haven’t posted often, but try to read the ng daily (or most of it). But just had to declare my good news. I’ve finally reached my ‘half way there’ goal! It has taken just under five months – not as quickly as I’d anticipated or hoped, but I *have* arrived! I can’t express enough how truly grateful I am for this support group. I have learned so many tips & tricks here and have tried several of the wonderful recipes posted. I honestly don’t think I’d have been this successful without all of you. So, a big Thanks to all! As for the last half of my LC weight loss journey, I’m certain I’ll reach my final goal. It doesn’t really matter *when*, since I intend to stay on plan and maintain a LC life style. I will get there, sooner or later! Some of you may recall my earlier posts about low energy levels and lack of motivation for much exercise – I’m hoping to experience some changes soon. I’ve recently had a consultation for a sleep study and will be returning the end of next week to get ‘wired up’ for the study. I’ll sure be relieved if it proves my problem is sleep apnea, at least there is treatment for it and a glimmer of hope for some real energy. Some of you have had sleep studies, so I’d like to ask: What was your experience? If you had it to do all over again, what questions would you have asked. How could I be better prepared for the study (i.e. bring own pillow, etc.). Has treatment really made a big difference in your life? Any additional info you’d like to relate. If you feel this is too off topic for this ng, you can e-mail me here: JanisR_at_cox_dot_net I would really appreciate some insight. Who knows, if I become more energetic and get some better exercise, I may reach the last half of my goal sooner than I think!! Again, thanks to all. Janis <ready for my nap, now Atkins 3/17/03

Response:

I did not have any problem sleeping all wired up. I was diagnosed with low level sleep apnea. I got a mask and machine and was able to sleep with it. The good news – since I started Adkins -about 3 months ago now, I have lost 27 pounds and according to my S.O., I no longer snore and quit breathing. I no longer use the mask and machine. Also, and this may or may not have anything to do with sleep apnea; I no longer have chronic sinustitus. For the first time in my life, I can breathe through my nose without nasal spray. I think I may have had an allegry to wheat and did not know it. No more wheat products and no more chronic sinus problems. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

Oh, Happy Day! Been busy, haven’t posted often, but try to read the ng daily (or most of it). But just had to declare my good news. I’ve finally reached my ‘half way there’ goal! It has taken just under five months – not as quickly as I’d anticipated or hoped, but I *have* arrived! I can’t express enough how truly grateful I am for this support group. I have learned so many tips & tricks here and have tried several of the wonderful recipes posted. I honestly don’t think I’d have been this successful without all of you. So, a big Thanks to all! As for the last half of my LC weight loss journey, I’m certain I’ll reach my final goal. It doesn’t really matter *when*, since I intend to stay on plan and maintain a LC life style. I will get there, sooner or later! Some of you may recall my earlier posts about low energy levels and lack of motivation for much exercise – I’m hoping to experience some changes soon. I’ve recently had a consultation for a sleep study and will be returning the end of next week to get ‘wired up’ for the study. I’ll sure be relieved if it proves my problem is sleep apnea, at least there is treatment for it and a glimmer of hope for some real energy. Some of you have had sleep studies, so I’d like to ask: What was your experience? If you had it to do all over again, what questions would you have asked. How could I be better prepared for the study (i.e. bring own pillow, etc.). Has treatment really made a big difference in your life? Any additional info you’d like to relate. If you feel this is too off topic for this ng, you can e-mail me here: JanisR_at_cox_dot_net I would really appreciate some insight. Who knows, if I become more energetic and get some better exercise, I may reach the last half of my goal sooner than I think!! Again, thanks to all. Janis <ready for my nap, now Atkins 3/17/03

Response:

Greetings! As far as the sleep study – try to get a long enough bed. My 6 foot tall SO couldn’t get comfortable – the bed was too short. Also expect to be wired with many many patches and miles of wires, all of which you will be aware of at first. Makes falling asleep really difficult. My SO tested for sleep apnea…tried the facial mask thingee <g, and couldn’t tolerate it – he was advised he should have surgery, but no two surgeons could agree on the treatment, the kind of surgery, or the outcome…so that was shelved. He started Atkins for blood sugar control and to lose weight, lost 50 pounds (we are now really stalled – need to lose lots more), and also lost most of the sleep apnea/snoring problems! YMMV Sandy

Response:

Well, that’s encouraging. I’m supposed to have a sleep study too, but since I have a huge problem falling asleep under ideal circumstances, I don’t know that I would sleep at all there–and my daughter would be very disrupted. — Jean B., 12 miles west of Boston, Massachusetts, USA

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Help! Whats wrong with me?

Question:

I have never been more frustrated ever! I started graduate school in January after being out of school for over 4 1/2 years. When I started, I was really excited about doing a lot of reading and research, only to discover that I was unable to focus while reading. My mind would wander off and I would be half-asleep all day, so nothing would get in my mind. Under extreme pressure (like right before a test), or when studying with people, my mind would be very alert. This inability to control myself drove me very close to suicide. I sufferred from the most insane depression! I tried everything. I went on diets, I took tons of vitamins, I read many books and spoke to 3 psychiatrists (This is list is very short compared to what I’ve tried and how much I’ve sufferred). I started getting beliefs about myself that I’m lazy and only do what gives me total pleasure, which depressed me even more. I am very intelligent, as I was an A student as an undergrad and got all A’s last semster just by studying right before an exam. This frustrates me even more. I have massive potential and ambition, but I feel there is something wrong with me. After too much frustration, tons more suffering and being very very close to suicide again, I read some info on the net on ADHD. It suddenly struck me that maybe this is what I’m suuffering from, so 3 weeks ago after consulting with my doctor I started on Ritalin. I saw an immediate effect when starting on it, I was able to focus better and my depression got a bit better, but after a couple of days, things started getting worse again, some days Ritalin was uneffective, I seemed to be half-asleep all day even if I doubled (and occassionally tripled) my dosage of Ritalin and had slept very well the night before. I seemed to be losing control again. Why can’t I be fully awake??! Even on the days when Ritalin is working I’m still not as awake as I would like to be, I am unable to get myself in that amazing state of being unbelievably awake, where I could read think and understand without any problems. Whenever I get any of these bad days with excessive daytime sleepiness, I can’t do anything all day, I have to wait till the next day to see if I will be more awake the next day. I get these bad sleepy days atleast 3 days a week. My life is falling apart, and suicide is crossing my mind again. Whats wrong with me? Am I suffering from a sleeping disorder? If so what medication can make me feel fully awake? Anybody have any ideas/related experiences? Bill

Response:

If I remeber right, some folks with ADD will get groggy if they have TOO MUCH stimulant. You might look into this. Also, you might check out Strattera. I haven’t had porblems feeling "awake" with that and it isn’t stimulant based, so it might do something better for you. All meds for ADD do not work the same nor will you have the same effects on it. Even among the stimulants. You could also have a co-morbid condition with say, depression (i.e. suicide thoughts) and such. Sleep patterns are another. If yours is not steady, you can hallucinate, be depressed, soaked for energy and not focus well as well. Don’t give up. There’s just to darn much of this world to explore and enjoy in spite of a few stupid "feelings" now and then trying to screw things up and get in the way. Sojo

Response:

(snip remainder – mostly more of the same, Ritalin helping some, but not enough) For me, Wellbutrin and Adderall are providing enough to keep me awake most days, but there’s still a bit of a struggle with wakefulness. On a bad day, I can end up fogged out, even on both of the meds. So, anyway: Ritalin alone might not be enough for you… if you’re a good candidate for Wellbutrin, well, it works well for me. With day-to-day sleepiness, exercise can help, and meditation can help. Really, what I do for tiredness is kind of a cross between meditation and napping… I take an image (my most common one is energy flowing up through me to a point above my head while I inhale, then letting the energy wash down over me, pulling away stress and anxiety with it, washing them into the earth). I concentrate on that image, and it doesn’t matter if my mind wanders… I just try to go back to the image every time it does. Done right, I kind-of go blank for fifteen minutes, and I wake up relaxed and refreshed. (A warning… feeling relaxed was *strange* the first time I came up from it. It’s almost like being tired, because my mind had hit an ‘at rest’ point. It wasn’t tiredness, but it was close enough that it made me nervous, until I realized that ‘relaxed’ was the right description.) If you’re like me, you can trap yourself into a tiredness producing activity. For example, I sometimes sit down at my computer and play a computer game, even though I’m bored with it. I’m not enjoying myself, and the boredom starts making me tired, but unless I’m aware of the risk, I don’t think to just stop playing and doing something else. It’s important to learn to break out of that kind of spiral. It’s also important to practice some mental discipline, and make yourself try to do things when you are tired. Sometimes, if you work hard enough, you break out of the fog and focus on something. Good luck getting help; tiredness/fogginess were my primary symptoms as well, and it was truly hellish before I was able to find help. — Everything I needed to know in life I learned in Kindergarten. Like: Once you pull the pin on Mr. Hand Grenade, he is no longer your friend.

Response:

Bill, Thoughts of suicide, difficulty concentrating, and sleep problems are all symptoms of depression. Multiple medications such as an anti-depressant and a stimulant may be needed when depresson and ADHD are both diagnosed. Let your doctor know what’s going on. Don’t give up, it may take a while to find out what meds work best for you.

Response:

I have never been more frustrated ever!

I see others have answered the substance of your post, so I hope you won’t be too offended if I suggest that you break up your posts into paragraphs, with blank lines between the paragraphs. Many ADDers have a hard time reading a large unbroken block of text, particularly on-screen.

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Help! Whats Wrong with me??

Question:

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 14:07:29 -0700, "Bill" <rhn…@cox.net> wrote: >Whenever I get any of these bad days with excessive daytime >sleepiness, I can’t do anything all day, I have to wait till the next >day to see if I will be more awake the next day. I get these >bad sleepy days atleast 3 days a week. My life is falling apart, >and suicide is crossing my mind again. Whats wrong with me? >Am I suffering from a sleeping disorder?

RUN, do not walk, to your local sleep disorders expert. >If so what medication can make me feel fully awake?

I suspect you may need a device instead of a medication.

Response:

"Bill" <rhn…@cox.net> wrote in message

news:C4CUa.27270$Ne.12025@fed1read03… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I have never been more frustrated with my life ever! I started graduate > school in January after being out of school for over 4 1/2 years. When I > started, I was really excited about doing a lot of reading, only to discover > that I was unable to focus while reading. My mind would wander off and I > would be half-asleep all day, so nothing would get in my mind. Under extreme > pressure (like right before a test), or when studying with people, my mind > would be very alert. This inability to control myself drove me very close to > suicide. I sufferred from the most insane depression! I tried everything. I > went on diets, I took tons of vitamins, I read many books and spoke to 3 > psychiatrists (This is list is very short compared to what I’ve tried and > how much I’ve sufferred). I started getting beliefs about myself that I’m > lazy and only do what gives me total pleasure, which depressed me even more. > I am very intelligent, as I was an A student as an undergrad and got all A’s > last semster just by studying right before an exam. This frustrates me even > more. I have massive potential and ambition, but I feel there is something > wrong with me. After too much frustration, tons more suffering and being > very very close to suicide again, I read some info on the net on ADHD. It > suddenly struck me that maybe this is what I’m suuffering from, so 3 weeks > ago after consulting with my doctor I started on Ritalin. I saw an immediate > effect when starting on it, I was able to focus better and my depression got > a bit better, but after a couple of days, things started getting worse > again, some days Ritalin was uneffective, I seemed to be half-asleep all day > even if I doubled (and occasiocally tripled) my dosage of Ritalin and had > slept very well the night before. I seemed to be losing control again. Why > can’t I be fully awake??! Even on the days when Ritalin is working I’m still > not as awake as I would like to be, I am unable to get myself in that > amazing state of being unbelievably awake, where I could read think and > understand without any problems. Whenever I get any of these bad days with > excessive daytime sleepiness, I can’t do anything all day, I have to wait > till the next day to see if I will be more awake the next day. I get these > bad sleepy days atleast 3 days a week. My life is falling apart, and suicide > is crossing my mind again. Whats wrong with me? Am I suffering from a > sleeping disorder? If so what medication can make me feel fully awake? > Anybody have any ideas? > Bill

You are on the right approach in seeking answers. We can point you to some reading and share some of our experiences, but only in educating yourself and finding the right doctor(s) will you find your answer. Some of the things you mention are indicative of a sleep disorder – so this isn’t a bad place to start. Be warned though that many symptoms of sleep disorders are shared by other maladies and illnesses. You may actually suffer from more than one malady which can cause trouble finding appropriate treatment. (e.g. thyroid problems). Regarding hyperactivity, there are indications that sleep apnea can be associated. http://www.healthinschools.org/ejournal/2002/apr02_4.htm This is a good site for information on a broad spectrum of sleep problems http://www.talkaboutsleep.com/, including some helpful questionnaires. Another useful read: http://www.ahealthyme.com/topic/fatigueprimer Most sites include multiple links. After completing some of the questionnaires, be sure to use them in discussions with your doctor(s). Be assured there is hope and that your experiences have been shared by many.

Response:

I have never been more frustrated with my life ever! I started graduate school in January after being out of school for over 4 1/2 years. When I started, I was really excited about doing a lot of reading, only to discover that I was unable to focus while reading. My mind would wander off and I would be half-asleep all day, so nothing would get in my mind. Under extreme pressure (like right before a test), or when studying with people, my mind would be very alert. This inability to control myself drove me very close to suicide. I sufferred from the most insane depression! I tried everything. I went on diets, I took tons of vitamins, I read many books and spoke to 3 psychiatrists (This is list is very short compared to what I’ve tried and how much I’ve sufferred). I started getting beliefs about myself that I’m lazy and only do what gives me total pleasure, which depressed me even more. I am very intelligent, as I was an A student as an undergrad and got all A’s last semster just by studying right before an exam. This frustrates me even more. I have massive potential and ambition, but I feel there is something wrong with me. After too much frustration, tons more suffering and being very very close to suicide again, I read some info on the net on ADHD. It suddenly struck me that maybe this is what I’m suuffering from, so 3 weeks ago after consulting with my doctor I started on Ritalin. I saw an immediate effect when starting on it, I was able to focus better and my depression got a bit better, but after a couple of days, things started getting worse again, some days Ritalin was uneffective, I seemed to be half-asleep all day even if I doubled (and occasiocally tripled) my dosage of Ritalin and had slept very well the night before. I seemed to be losing control again. Why can’t I be fully awake??! Even on the days when Ritalin is working I’m still not as awake as I would like to be, I am unable to get myself in that amazing state of being unbelievably awake, where I could read think and understand without any problems. Whenever I get any of these bad days with excessive daytime sleepiness, I can’t do anything all day, I have to wait till the next day to see if I will be more awake the next day. I get these bad sleepy days atleast 3 days a week. My life is falling apart, and suicide is crossing my mind again. Whats wrong with me? Am I suffering from a sleeping disorder? If so what medication can make me feel fully awake? Anybody have any ideas? Bill

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Drug option seems to be working

Question:

The next piece of my story, for those of you who have been helping me through all this. Been off the CPAP now for about a month. Yippee – I can actually do up the button on my jeans. No more bloating! I seem to be one of the lucky ones – modafinil is working for me so far. (sold as Modavigil here & Provigil in the USA.) I did find this seeming contradiction interesting though: 1) What about contraceptives? Research suggests that PROVIGIL may reduce the effectiveness of some contraceptive drugs. If you are using birth control, please discuss this with your doctor. He or she might change the dose of your current contraceptive or perhaps recommend another method of birth control while you’re taking PROVIGIL. http://www.provigil.com/patient/fact.asp#8 2) Provigil can decrease the effectiveness of certain contraceptives including birth control pills, and implantable contraceptives. If you are using this type of contraceptive while taking Provigil and for 1 month after you stop treatment with Provigil you should either: – use an alternate birth control method, or – use another effective birth control method together with your current contraceptive. http://www.fda.gov/cder/consumerinfo/druginfo/provigil.htm When I first raised the subject with my sleep Dr he looked at me blankly. It appears he had not considered that modafinil might interfere with contraception. I can see why the sleep Dr would not know about my 3-year implant – it is hardly his field. But I would have expected him to at least consider the possibility of interaction between modafinial & contraceptives in general. Of course my SO is not very impressed <vbg> First CPAP & now this…. Thanks for sticking with me! Kit — To reply replace nospam with kamuzz

Response:

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:11:43 +1000, "Kit" <ksm…@nospam.com> wrote: >Research suggests that PROVIGIL may reduce the effectiveness of some >contraceptive drugs. If you are using birth control, please discuss this >with your doctor.

There are finite pathways to metabolize most drugs and they get to interfering with each other. >Of course my SO is not very impressed <vbg> First CPAP & now this….

It could be worse: he could need VIAGRA. <wink>

Response:

Kit wrote: > The next piece of my story, for those of you who have been helping me > through all this. > Been off the CPAP now for about a month. Yippee – I can actually do up the > button on my jeans. No more bloating! > I seem to be one of the lucky ones – modafinil is working for me so far. > (sold as Modavigil here & Provigil in the USA.)

Good news! Please don’t disappear into the sunset <g>. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I did find this seeming contradiction interesting though: > 1) What about contraceptives? > Research suggests that PROVIGIL may reduce the effectiveness of some > contraceptive drugs. If you are using birth control, please discuss this > with your doctor. He or she might change the dose of your current > contraceptive or perhaps recommend another method of birth control while > you’re taking PROVIGIL. > http://www.provigil.com/patient/fact.asp#8 > 2) Provigil can decrease the effectiveness of certain contraceptives > including birth control pills, and implantable contraceptives. If you are > using this type of contraceptive while taking Provigil and for 1 month after > you stop treatment with Provigil you should either: > – use an alternate birth control method, or > – use another effective birth control method together with your current > contraceptive. > http://www.fda.gov/cder/consumerinfo/druginfo/provigil.htm > When I first raised the subject with my sleep Dr he looked at me blankly. It > appears he had not considered that modafinil might interfere with > contraception. > I can see why the sleep Dr would not know about my 3-year implant – it is > hardly his field. But I would have expected him to at least consider the > possibility of interaction between modafinial & contraceptives in general. > Of course my SO is not very impressed <vbg> First CPAP & now this…. > Thanks for sticking with me! > Kit

Response:

I haven’t yet taken either Provigil or Xyrem, but considered that Dr. Black concluded in his interview on the Xyrem trials that it’s rather possible to consider Xyrem as an effective agent in relieving excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS) in non-narcoleptics, and that current trials with Xyrem are combining it with Provigil in order to assess Xyrem’s effect on allieviating the symptoms of excessive daytime sleepiness, that Xyrem should be combined with Provigil so that one is doing more than simply treating symptoms. One poster mentioned his Idiopathic Hypersomnia wasn’t helped by Xyrem alone. Well, considering Xyrem’s makers are testing EDS with a combo of Xyrem and a stimulant like Provigil or amphetamines, I’m not surprised. The two are a helpful combo, and one shouldn’t dismiss either drug if they didn’t combine them. I personally find it more prudent to use both (unless Xyrem alone after 6 weeks alleviates all symptoms of EDS) because the EDS appears to be a way for the body to tell someone even with excellent polysomnograph ratings that they need help with enhancing their sleep.

Response:

I am the person that mentioned that xyrem is not working for me. I had tried provigil for 2 of years at a high dose up to 800 mg per day with no results. It helped at first about 3 1/2 years ago and as I got worse it did not work at all. Plus it caused my turbinates to swell shut I think. I did get to try a stimulant which helped with staying awake and not being as tired but since Dr. Black did the clinical trials with xyrem, no one was willing to give up their stimulants so the clinical trials did not have xyrem only but stimiulants as well. So that is why I am on xyrem only. It depends on what is causing a persons EDS/IH if xyrem would work or not. With my spontaneous arousals it does not seem to be working and I actually seem to be getting worse. But any one should, if they can, try what they can, to try and get better. "Ganishe Alprya" <everyoneisve…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:5e6eb1a3.0307131531.3cba63af@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I haven’t yet taken either Provigil or Xyrem, but considered that Dr. > Black concluded in his interview on the Xyrem trials that it’s rather > possible to consider Xyrem as an effective agent in relieving > excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS) in non-narcoleptics, and that > current trials with Xyrem are combining it with Provigil in order to > assess Xyrem’s effect on allieviating the symptoms of excessive > daytime sleepiness, that Xyrem should be combined with Provigil so > that one is doing more than simply treating symptoms. > One poster mentioned his Idiopathic Hypersomnia wasn’t helped by Xyrem > alone. Well, considering Xyrem’s makers are testing EDS with a combo > of Xyrem and a stimulant like Provigil or amphetamines, I’m not > surprised. The two are a helpful combo, and one shouldn’t dismiss > either drug if they didn’t combine them. > I personally find it more prudent to use both (unless Xyrem alone > after 6 weeks alleviates all symptoms of EDS) because the EDS appears > to be a way for the body to tell someone even with excellent > polysomnograph ratings that they need help with enhancing their sleep.

Response:

Ganishe Alprya wrote: > I haven’t yet taken either Provigil or Xyrem, but considered that Dr. > Black

From Stanford? > concluded in his interview on the Xyrem trials that it’s rather > possible to consider Xyrem as an effective agent in relieving > excessive daytime sleepiness (EDS) in non-narcoleptics, and that > current trials with Xyrem are combining it with Provigil in order to > assess Xyrem’s effect on allieviating the symptoms of excessive > daytime sleepiness, that Xyrem should be combined with Provigil so > that one is doing more than simply treating symptoms.

It would be useful to a lot of us if you could provide source information regarding his interview and current trials. I have found many doctors who say this when they are practicing on their patients. To them, these are trials. We’re looking for scientific trials here. > One poster mentioned his Idiopathic Hypersomnia wasn’t helped by Xyrem > alone. Well, considering Xyrem’s makers are testing EDS with a combo > of Xyrem and a stimulant like Provigil or amphetamines,

The first hit with GOOGLE for provigil stimulant http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-041502sleep.story quotes Dr. Black as saying "Provigil isn’t considered a stimulant per se, though it has a wakefulness effect." This article was written in April 2002. I don’t read this the same as your comment "…and a stimulant like Provigil…" However, any island in a storm. If it works, that’s all that counts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m not > surprised. The two are a helpful combo, and one shouldn’t dismiss > either drug if they didn’t combine them. > I personally find it more prudent to use both (unless Xyrem alone > after 6 weeks alleviates all symptoms of EDS) because the EDS appears > to be a way for the body to tell someone even with excellent > polysomnograph ratings that they need help with enhancing their sleep.

Response:

> The first hit with GOOGLE for provigil stimulant > http://www.latimes.com/features/health/la-041502sleep.story > quotes Dr. Black as saying "Provigil isn’t considered a stimulant > per se, though it has a wakefulness effect." This article was > written in April 2002.

Thanks, Norm. (sarcasm on). Never had any idea what a "stimulant" meant, and had absolutely no idea that Provigil was classified as something other than a stimluant. (sarcasm off). Read up on something called "explanatory fiction." Docs use it all the time. If they didn’t, they’d waste a lot of time explaining things to patients that they didn’t need to explain.

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine

0 RESPONSES

Norm–What's the problem?

Question:

Bob, thanks for the tip. John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"bob" <bnj…@infionline.net> wrote in message <news:bccff8$dh0$1@slb0.atl.mindspring.net>… > I have sleep apnea and PLMD. I rely > on the southern Calif RLS support group. go to http://www.rlshelp.org > The site contains a lot of information on drugs used for RLS and PLMD. The > medical advisor is a Dr Mark J. Buchfuhrer. He is also a member of the RLS > foundation medical advisory board. The web site also contains an index of > patient letters. The point for you is E-mail him a patient letter asking > him about Emron. He replys to all patient letters. At the end of the > website document is the e-mail address for sending patient letters. In my > opion he knows a lot about medications.w"John_E" <do_not_rep…@mail.com> > wrote in message news:bf3dfb43.0306100757.689805ea@posting.google.com… > > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > > suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > > drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best > > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > > godsend to others.

Response:

John_E wrote: > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > godsend to others.

Depends on what it was prescribed for. I’m sure it is a fine anti-depressant and it may keep you from awakening durng the night. It might even keep you asleep right during an anpeic event. However, I never had any problems with falling asleep or staying asleep. My problem was that I felt like crap each day. I can’t conceive of any way Remeron will keep my airways from closing up when I relax, particualrly when sedated with an anti-depressant.

Response:

>>There are prople on this NG who matter. You are not one of them.<<

C’mon, sweetheart, tell me how ya really feel. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message <news:3EE7B369.3080404@socal.rr.com>… > John_E wrote: > >>>but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts, > > particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.<< > > I don’t believe I asked you to, Mr. NormC. > Ya, you did. I ignored it in one of your many posts, but > commented on it in my last post > I’m pleased that you don’t recall, however, because you’ve now > gotten all the help you’re gonna get from me. There are prople > on this NG who matter. You are not one of them. > Plonk! (That’s the sound of the twit switch, Mr. John_E) > > NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message <news:3EE61976.30606@socal.rr.com>… > >>John_E wrote: > >>>Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > >>>suffer from sleep apnea? > >>I thought the findings were for OSA. Was it for both OSA and > >>CSA? It’s time for you to start distinguishing between the two. > >> Sleep apnea INCLUDES OSA, CSA, and mixed. > >>I KNOW that in two identical posts, I said one should read the > >>thread regarding Remeron and decide for oneself. That hardly > >>makes me ‘against’ it. Although I think it was a BS study, if I > >>had CSA, I would consider using Remeron, but only if prescribed > >>by psychopharmacologist. > >>In the thread on Remeron, a number of us put forth our questions > >>about that study. If you read all of the thread, and think > >>Remeron is for you, then God bless! > >>>Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > >>>drug? > >>I have OSA. I have not tried Remeron. I have taken zoloft and > >>lamictal, since long before I had any symptoms of sleep apnea, > >>for bipolar disorder. I’ve gotten off the lamictal since cpap. > >>>I believe I suffer from CSA, > >>In another one of your threads, ‘Can’t tolerate trazadone’ I > >>asked a couple questions that you never answered. Perhaps you > >>missed them. Why don’t you go back and try to answer them. > >>If you had proper PSGs and titrations, y90u should have to > >>’think’ you have CSA. You should KNOW. > >>>and Remeron has given me the best > >>>sleep in 10 years, > >>I could understand this possiblity. I don’t think I’ve denied > >>it. But I don’t understand why you were prescribed a CPAP and > >>why you only ‘think’ (don’t seem to know) that you have CSA. > >>And, of course, we need to understand what ‘the best sleep in 10 > >>years’ means to you. I, personally, would want to now what is > >>happening with my blood oxy sat levels are during this ‘best > >>sleep in 10 years’. Don’t you? > >>>although from previous experience, I know that I > >>>must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > >>>Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > >>>godsend to others. > >>But this statement is true without the ‘test/study’ done related > >>to either OSA or CSA. Isn’t it? > >>I’ll have to say that in neary 3 years of reading and learning > >>about sleep apnea, you case strikes me as unusual. And the facts > >>of your case, that you have provided, are spread out in many > >>posts, as well as many threads. > >>I still think someone here could be of help to you (maybe even > >>me) but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts, > >>particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.

Response:

I have sleep apnea and PLMD. I rely on the southern Calif RLS support group. go to http://www.rlshelp.org The site contains a lot of information on drugs used for RLS and PLMD. The medical advisor is a Dr Mark J. Buchfuhrer. He is also a member of the RLS foundation medical advisory board. The web site also contains an index of patient letters. The point for you is E-mail him a patient letter asking him about Emron. He replys to all patient letters. At the end of the website document is the e-mail address for sending patient letters. In my opion he knows a lot about medications.w"John_E" <do_not_rep…@mail.com> wrote in message news:bf3dfb43.0306100757.689805ea@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > godsend to others.

Response:

John_E wrote: >>>but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts, > particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.<< > I don’t believe I asked you to, Mr. NormC.

Ya, you did. I ignored it in one of your many posts, but commented on it in my last post I’m pleased that you don’t recall, however, because you’ve now gotten all the help you’re gonna get from me. There are prople on this NG who matter. You are not one of them. Plonk! (That’s the sound of the twit switch, Mr. John_E) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message <news:3EE61976.30606@socal.rr.com>… >>John_E wrote: >>>Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who >>>suffer from sleep apnea? >>I thought the findings were for OSA. Was it for both OSA and >>CSA? It’s time for you to start distinguishing between the two. >> Sleep apnea INCLUDES OSA, CSA, and mixed. >>I KNOW that in two identical posts, I said one should read the >>thread regarding Remeron and decide for oneself. That hardly >>makes me ‘against’ it. Although I think it was a BS study, if I >>had CSA, I would consider using Remeron, but only if prescribed >>by psychopharmacologist. >>In the thread on Remeron, a number of us put forth our questions >>about that study. If you read all of the thread, and think >>Remeron is for you, then God bless! >>>Do you have apnea, and have you tried the >>>drug? >>I have OSA. I have not tried Remeron. I have taken zoloft and >>lamictal, since long before I had any symptoms of sleep apnea, >>for bipolar disorder. I’ve gotten off the lamictal since cpap. >>>I believe I suffer from CSA, >>In another one of your threads, ‘Can’t tolerate trazadone’ I >>asked a couple questions that you never answered. Perhaps you >>missed them. Why don’t you go back and try to answer them. >>If you had proper PSGs and titrations, y90u should have to >>’think’ you have CSA. You should KNOW. >>>and Remeron has given me the best >>>sleep in 10 years, >>I could understand this possiblity. I don’t think I’ve denied >>it. But I don’t understand why you were prescribed a CPAP and >>why you only ‘think’ (don’t seem to know) that you have CSA. >>And, of course, we need to understand what ‘the best sleep in 10 >>years’ means to you. I, personally, would want to now what is >>happening with my blood oxy sat levels are during this ‘best >>sleep in 10 years’. Don’t you? >>>although from previous experience, I know that I >>>must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. >>>Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a >>>godsend to others. >>But this statement is true without the ‘test/study’ done related >>to either OSA or CSA. Isn’t it? >>I’ll have to say that in neary 3 years of reading and learning >>about sleep apnea, you case strikes me as unusual. And the facts >>of your case, that you have provided, are spread out in many >>posts, as well as many threads. >>I still think someone here could be of help to you (maybe even >>me) but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts, >>particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.

Response:

Should say this is in the UK (NHS). — Frankie (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply ) You will Also Find Me On http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea

Response:

John_E wrote: > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > suffer from sleep apnea?

I thought the findings were for OSA. Was it for both OSA and CSA? It’s time for you to start distinguishing between the two. Sleep apnea INCLUDES OSA, CSA, and mixed. I KNOW that in two identical posts, I said one should read the thread regarding Remeron and decide for oneself. That hardly makes me ‘against’ it. Although I think it was a BS study, if I had CSA, I would consider using Remeron, but only if prescribed by psychopharmacologist. In the thread on Remeron, a number of us put forth our questions about that study. If you read all of the thread, and think Remeron is for you, then God bless! > Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > drug?

I have OSA. I have not tried Remeron. I have taken zoloft and lamictal, since long before I had any symptoms of sleep apnea, for bipolar disorder. I’ve gotten off the lamictal since cpap. > I believe I suffer from CSA,

In another one of your threads, ‘Can’t tolerate trazadone’ I asked a couple questions that you never answered. Perhaps you missed them. Why don’t you go back and try to answer them. If you had proper PSGs and titrations, y90u should have to ‘think’ you have CSA. You should KNOW. > and Remeron has given me the best > sleep in 10 years,

I could understand this possiblity. I don’t think I’ve denied it. But I don’t understand why you were prescribed a CPAP and why you only ‘think’ (don’t seem to know) that you have CSA. And, of course, we need to understand what ‘the best sleep in 10 years’ means to you. I, personally, would want to now what is happening with my blood oxy sat levels are during this ‘best sleep in 10 years’. Don’t you? > although from previous experience, I know that I > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > godsend to others.

But this statement is true without the ‘test/study’ done related to either OSA or CSA. Isn’t it? I’ll have to say that in neary 3 years of reading and learning about sleep apnea, you case strikes me as unusual. And the facts of your case, that you have provided, are spread out in many posts, as well as many threads. I still think someone here could be of help to you (maybe even me) but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts, particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frankie wrote: > "h.sanders" <h.sand…@attbi.com> wrote in message > news:4QnFa.109745$DV.124647@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net… >>"John_E" <do_not_rep…@mail.com> wrote in message >>news:bf3dfb43.0306100757.689805ea@posting.google.com… >>>Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who >>>suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the >>>drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best >>>sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I >>>must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. >>>Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a >>>godsend to others. >>———————————– >>You say you "believe" you suffer from CSA. Have you been thru a full-blown >>sleep study?Without the study, there’s no way you can know if you have CSA >>or OSA. And, if not, what kind of a doctor gave you a prescription > without >>the diagnostic study? >>Hal S. > Hal > I have just conversed with someone who has CPAP but he hasn’t been titrated > yet!! I would not have believed it if I had not had this conversation with > my doctor last Friday when he suggested that he didn’t see why I could not > try CPAP without the formality of the sleep study or titration????? Go > figure

Frankie – I know you have been reading here regularly for quite some time. So you know that a number of us don’t think it is appropriate,for the unlucky few, to have to prolong their misery by inadequate and inappropriate diagnosis and treatment. There are even a number of us who have had full PSGs and titrations that still had/have problems. And what is even more difficult for me to understand is why you have to wait for so long and then not get a full diagnosis and treatment.

Response:

>>but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts,

particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.<< I don’t believe I asked you to, Mr. NormC. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message <news:3EE61976.30606@socal.rr.com>… > John_E wrote: > > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > > suffer from sleep apnea? > I thought the findings were for OSA. Was it for both OSA and > CSA? It’s time for you to start distinguishing between the two. > Sleep apnea INCLUDES OSA, CSA, and mixed. > I KNOW that in two identical posts, I said one should read the > thread regarding Remeron and decide for oneself. That hardly > makes me ‘against’ it. Although I think it was a BS study, if I > had CSA, I would consider using Remeron, but only if prescribed > by psychopharmacologist. > In the thread on Remeron, a number of us put forth our questions > about that study. If you read all of the thread, and think > Remeron is for you, then God bless! > > Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > > drug? > I have OSA. I have not tried Remeron. I have taken zoloft and > lamictal, since long before I had any symptoms of sleep apnea, > for bipolar disorder. I’ve gotten off the lamictal since cpap. > > I believe I suffer from CSA, > In another one of your threads, ‘Can’t tolerate trazadone’ I > asked a couple questions that you never answered. Perhaps you > missed them. Why don’t you go back and try to answer them. > If you had proper PSGs and titrations, y90u should have to > ‘think’ you have CSA. You should KNOW. > > and Remeron has given me the best > > sleep in 10 years, > I could understand this possiblity. I don’t think I’ve denied > it. But I don’t understand why you were prescribed a CPAP and > why you only ‘think’ (don’t seem to know) that you have CSA. > And, of course, we need to understand what ‘the best sleep in 10 > years’ means to you. I, personally, would want to now what is > happening with my blood oxy sat levels are during this ‘best > sleep in 10 years’. Don’t you? > > although from previous experience, I know that I > > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > > godsend to others. > But this statement is true without the ‘test/study’ done related > to either OSA or CSA. Isn’t it? > I’ll have to say that in neary 3 years of reading and learning > about sleep apnea, you case strikes me as unusual. And the facts > of your case, that you have provided, are spread out in many > posts, as well as many threads. > I still think someone here could be of help to you (maybe even > me) but it’s not for us to search and read and reread your posts, > particularly when you haven’t answered some of the basic questions.

Response:

Jody, I have had remarkably few side effects from taking Remeron. For the first few nights, I had a slight "drug hangover" the next day, but that problem went away after about a week. Thanks for your nonflaming note. :) John – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -J*O*D*Y <"jodeez(TRASH)stuff"@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:3EE73A0C.97E61B17@sympatico.ca>… > My ‘family’ physician has prescribed for me "REMERON." I did not fill the > prescription because I take 400 mg of Provigil everyday…. > I am taking Provigil to stay awake due to excessive daytime sleepiness, and > he wants me to take Remeron? Jeez, one can only imagine what this would do > to my body and my mind…. > What side-effects did you have from the Remeron? > Jody > The Somnolent Phantom wrote: > > X-No-Archive: yes > > John_E wrote: > > > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > > > suffer from sleep apnea? > > What "findings"? The people that sell Remeron PAID two "scientists" to > > "study" 12 hand picked "trial subjects" that were fed Remeron and write > > a report that displays their total ignorance of the subject of sleep > > medicine, while promoting Remeron. > > If you had even the most remote concept of how legitimate scientific and > > medical research is conducted, this would have been blatantly obvious to > > you. This is the most flawed excuse for medical research that I have > > ever read. > > > Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > > > drug? > > If you had followed this group for more than a few hours you would have > > known Norm’s sleep disorder history. > > > I believe I suffer from CSA, > > "I believe I suffer from CSA" Say what? Either you have CSA or you do > > not have CSA, which is it? Have you had a PSG done in a certified sleep > > lab, and been diagnosed with CSA as a result of this study by a > > credential sleep medicine physician ? > > Note: This so called "findings" made no mention of Remeron as a > > treatment for CSA., only OSA. > > > and Remeron has given me the best > > > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > > > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > > How long have you been taking Remeron? Why was it prescribed for you. > > What type of doctor wrote the prescription? What do you mean by "best > > sleep" ? Have you been diagnosed by a sleep medicine physician as having > > OSA? What is the nature and history of your sleep disorder(s)? > > > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > > > godsend to others. > > It almost *godsent* me into the E.R. Remeron is a powerful sertatogenic > > (sp?) drug that has been approved for the treatment of depression, only. > > It should be prescribed only by a neurologist, psychiatrist or other > > specialist that has specialized training with phychotropic medications > > of this nature. Remeron has substantial potential for causing some very > > serious side effects. > > It will be a LONNNNNNNGGGGGG time before Remeron is subjected to REAL > > scientific testing as a potential treatment for OSA, and given FDA > > approval as a treatment for OSA. I aint holding my breath.

Response:

"NormC" <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message

news:3EE61C25.3080108@socal.rr.com… > Frankie wrote: > > Should say this is in the UK (NHS). > I thought you posted you were going private. Did the private > suggest cpap without manual titration?

Norm Yes I am seeing the private doctor on Wed 18th It was my family GP who couldn’t see any harm in trying CPAP without study or titration — Frankie (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply ) You will Also Find Me On http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea

Response:

He says that he thinks my entire ‘basket of health issues’ could be caused by ‘atypical depression.’ "You are not depressed, but you have the symptoms." My referral to Dr. Shapiro is being made. My family doctor said, "I’ll think about giving you a referral." I called him back a couple of days later, and left a message to tell him I got a referral, so no need to think any more about it. I phoned my sleep doctor back, and got it from there… J-O-D-Y – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -NormC wrote: > J*O*D*Y wrote: > > My ‘family’ physician has prescribed for me "REMERON." > For what reason(s)? OSA? Depression? > > I did not fill the > > prescription because I take 400 mg of Provigil everyday…. > > I am taking Provigil to stay awake due to excessive daytime sleepiness, and > > he wants me to take Remeron? Jeez, one can only imagine what this would do > > to my body and my mind…. > This is why I suggest that drugs for the brain ONLY be accepted > if prescribed by pychiatrists (preferably a psychopharmacologist) > or neurologists. > > What side-effects did you have from the Remeron? > > Jody > > The Somnolent Phantom wrote: > >>X-No-Archive: yes > >>John_E wrote: > >>>Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > >>>suffer from sleep apnea? > >>What "findings"? The people that sell Remeron PAID two "scientists" to > >>"study" 12 hand picked "trial subjects" that were fed Remeron and write > >>a report that displays their total ignorance of the subject of sleep > >>medicine, while promoting Remeron. > >>If you had even the most remote concept of how legitimate scientific and > >>medical research is conducted, this would have been blatantly obvious to > >>you. This is the most flawed excuse for medical research that I have > >>ever read. > >>>Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > >>>drug? > >>If you had followed this group for more than a few hours you would have > >>known Norm’s sleep disorder history. > >>>I believe I suffer from CSA, > >>"I believe I suffer from CSA" Say what? Either you have CSA or you do > >>not have CSA, which is it? Have you had a PSG done in a certified sleep > >>lab, and been diagnosed with CSA as a result of this study by a > >>credential sleep medicine physician ? > >>Note: This so called "findings" made no mention of Remeron as a > >>treatment for CSA., only OSA. > >>>and Remeron has given me the best > >>>sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > >>>must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > >>How long have you been taking Remeron? Why was it prescribed for you. > >>What type of doctor wrote the prescription? What do you mean by "best > >>sleep" ? Have you been diagnosed by a sleep medicine physician as having > >>OSA? What is the nature and history of your sleep disorder(s)? > >>>Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > >>>godsend to others. > >>It almost *godsent* me into the E.R. Remeron is a powerful sertatogenic > >>(sp?) drug that has been approved for the treatment of depression, only. > >>It should be prescribed only by a neurologist, psychiatrist or other > >>specialist that has specialized training with phychotropic medications > >>of this nature. Remeron has substantial potential for causing some very > >>serious side effects. > >>It will be a LONNNNNNNGGGGGG time before Remeron is subjected to REAL > >>scientific testing as a potential treatment for OSA, and given FDA > >>approval as a treatment for OSA. I aint holding my breath. > > — > > Take out the TRASH, if you want to email me….

– Take out the TRASH, if you want to email me….

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frankie wrote: >>>Hal >>>I have just conversed with someone who has CPAP but he hasn’t been > titrated >>>yet!! I would not have believed it if I had not had this conversation > with >>>my doctor last Friday when he suggested that he didn’t see why I could > not >>>try CPAP without the formality of the sleep study or titration????? Go >>>figure >>Frankie – I know you have been reading here regularly for quite >>some time. So you know that a number of us don’t think it is >>appropriate,for the unlucky few, to have to prolong their misery >>by inadequate and inappropriate diagnosis and treatment. >>There are even a number of us who have had full PSGs and >>titrations that still had/have problems. >>And what is even more difficult for me to understand is why you >>have to wait for so long and then not get a full diagnosis and >>treatment. > Norm > In short …money or lack of it > The guy I talked with has had his CPAP for 2 months, with pressure set at 7, > he feels no better as yet …..I wonder why..More shocking is that the > doctors know that it is not recommended practise but because he has severe > apnea that requires CPAP urgently they gave him the machine to use anyhow > until titration was possable…

This I can understand. > Don’t worry Norm I have learnt enough to say > no to this suggested idea. I want the sleep study WITH titration > first

[sigh of relief] If your PSG should show severe OSA, and there is a long delay for titration, then you don’t have anything to lose by using an autopap…. but a cpap, I just don’t know. ……but I can understand why people would be tempted to cut corners.

Response:

Frankie wrote: > Should say this is in the UK (NHS).

I thought you posted you were going private. Did the private suggest cpap without manual titration?

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hal > > I have just conversed with someone who has CPAP but he hasn’t been titrated > > yet!! I would not have believed it if I had not had this conversation with > > my doctor last Friday when he suggested that he didn’t see why I could not > > try CPAP without the formality of the sleep study or titration????? Go > > figure > Frankie – I know you have been reading here regularly for quite > some time. So you know that a number of us don’t think it is > appropriate,for the unlucky few, to have to prolong their misery > by inadequate and inappropriate diagnosis and treatment. > There are even a number of us who have had full PSGs and > titrations that still had/have problems. > And what is even more difficult for me to understand is why you > have to wait for so long and then not get a full diagnosis and > treatment.

Norm In short …money or lack of it The guy I talked with has had his CPAP for 2 months, with pressure set at 7, he feels no better as yet …..I wonder why..More shocking is that the doctors know that it is not recommended practise but because he has severe apnea that requires CPAP urgently they gave him the machine to use anyhow until titration was possable… Don’t worry Norm I have learnt enough to say no to this suggested idea. I want the sleep study WITH titration first……but I can understand why people would be tempted to cut corners. — Frankie (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply ) You will Also Find Me On http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea

Response:

"h.sanders" <h.sand…@attbi.com> wrote in message

news:4QnFa.109745$DV.124647@rwcrnsc52.ops.asp.att.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "John_E" <do_not_rep…@mail.com> wrote in message > news:bf3dfb43.0306100757.689805ea@posting.google.com… > > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > > suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > > drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best > > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > > godsend to others. > ———————————– > You say you "believe" you suffer from CSA. Have you been thru a full-blown > sleep study?Without the study, there’s no way you can know if you have CSA > or OSA. And, if not, what kind of a doctor gave you a prescription without > the diagnostic study? > Hal S.

Hal I have just conversed with someone who has CPAP but he hasn’t been titrated yet!! I would not have believed it if I had not had this conversation with my doctor last Friday when he suggested that he didn’t see why I could not try CPAP without the formality of the sleep study or titration????? Go figure — Frankie (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply ) You will Also Find Me On http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea

Response:

J*O*D*Y wrote: > My ‘family’ physician has prescribed for me "REMERON."

For what reason(s)? OSA? Depression? > I did not fill the > prescription because I take 400 mg of Provigil everyday…. > I am taking Provigil to stay awake due to excessive daytime sleepiness, and > he wants me to take Remeron? Jeez, one can only imagine what this would do > to my body and my mind….

This is why I suggest that drugs for the brain ONLY be accepted if prescribed by pychiatrists (preferably a psychopharmacologist) or neurologists. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> What side-effects did you have from the Remeron? > Jody > The Somnolent Phantom wrote: >>X-No-Archive: yes >>John_E wrote: >>>Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who >>>suffer from sleep apnea? >>What "findings"? The people that sell Remeron PAID two "scientists" to >>"study" 12 hand picked "trial subjects" that were fed Remeron and write >>a report that displays their total ignorance of the subject of sleep >>medicine, while promoting Remeron. >>If you had even the most remote concept of how legitimate scientific and >>medical research is conducted, this would have been blatantly obvious to >>you. This is the most flawed excuse for medical research that I have >>ever read. >>>Do you have apnea, and have you tried the >>>drug? >>If you had followed this group for more than a few hours you would have >>known Norm’s sleep disorder history. >>>I believe I suffer from CSA, >>"I believe I suffer from CSA" Say what? Either you have CSA or you do >>not have CSA, which is it? Have you had a PSG done in a certified sleep >>lab, and been diagnosed with CSA as a result of this study by a >>credential sleep medicine physician ? >>Note: This so called "findings" made no mention of Remeron as a >>treatment for CSA., only OSA. >>>and Remeron has given me the best >>>sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I >>>must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. >>How long have you been taking Remeron? Why was it prescribed for you. >>What type of doctor wrote the prescription? What do you mean by "best >>sleep" ? Have you been diagnosed by a sleep medicine physician as having >>OSA? What is the nature and history of your sleep disorder(s)? >>>Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a >>>godsend to others. >>It almost *godsent* me into the E.R. Remeron is a powerful sertatogenic >>(sp?) drug that has been approved for the treatment of depression, only. >>It should be prescribed only by a neurologist, psychiatrist or other >>specialist that has specialized training with phychotropic medications >>of this nature. Remeron has substantial potential for causing some very >>serious side effects. >>It will be a LONNNNNNNGGGGGG time before Remeron is subjected to REAL >>scientific testing as a potential treatment for OSA, and given FDA >>approval as a treatment for OSA. I aint holding my breath. > — > Take out the TRASH, if you want to email me….

Response:

> You should learn to clarify the difference between ‘obstructive’ and > ‘central’ sleep apnea. While the drug may help CSA it won’t help OSA. > Regards

actually, i think the article was talking about it as treatment for OSA….. but you’re right, it’s important to know the difference — Beth in Australia =================== FAQ for alt.support.sleep-disorder can be found here http://talhost.net/sleep this site is a work in progress – feel free to submit info/articles Remove my name to reply

Response:

You should learn to clarify the difference between ‘obstructive’ and ‘central’ sleep apnea. While the drug may help CSA it won’t help OSA. Regards Lee in Toronto —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! —–== Over 80,000 Newsgroups – 16 Different Servers! =—–

Response:

"NormC" <no…@socal.rr.com> wrote in message

news:3EE62048.7010808@socal.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Frankie wrote: > >>>Hal > >>>I have just conversed with someone who has CPAP but he hasn’t been > > titrated > >>>yet!! I would not have believed it if I had not had this conversation > > with > >>>my doctor last Friday when he suggested that he didn’t see why I could > > not > >>>try CPAP without the formality of the sleep study or titration????? Go > >>>figure > >>Frankie – I know you have been reading here regularly for quite > >>some time. So you know that a number of us don’t think it is > >>appropriate,for the unlucky few, to have to prolong their misery > >>by inadequate and inappropriate diagnosis and treatment. > >>There are even a number of us who have had full PSGs and > >>titrations that still had/have problems. > >>And what is even more difficult for me to understand is why you > >>have to wait for so long and then not get a full diagnosis and > >>treatment. > > Norm > > In short …money or lack of it > > The guy I talked with has had his CPAP for 2 months, with pressure set at 7, > > he feels no better as yet …..I wonder why..More shocking is that the > > doctors know that it is not recommended practise but because he has severe > > apnea that requires CPAP urgently they gave him the machine to use anyhow > > until titration was possable… > This I can understand. > > Don’t worry Norm I have learnt enough to say > > no to this suggested idea. I want the sleep study WITH titration > > first > [sigh of relief] If your PSG should show severe OSA, and there > is a long delay for titration, then you don’t have anything to > lose by using an autopap…. but a cpap, I just don’t know. > ……but I can understand why people would be tempted to cut > corners.

I’m glad we got that sorted ) — Frankie (Remove MYSPLEEN to reply ) You will Also Find Me On http://uk.msnusers.com/LivingWithSleepApnea

Response:

My ‘family’ physician has prescribed for me "REMERON." I did not fill the prescription because I take 400 mg of Provigil everyday…. I am taking Provigil to stay awake due to excessive daytime sleepiness, and he wants me to take Remeron? Jeez, one can only imagine what this would do to my body and my mind…. What side-effects did you have from the Remeron? Jody – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -The Somnolent Phantom wrote: > X-No-Archive: yes > John_E wrote: > > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > > suffer from sleep apnea? > What "findings"? The people that sell Remeron PAID two "scientists" to > "study" 12 hand picked "trial subjects" that were fed Remeron and write > a report that displays their total ignorance of the subject of sleep > medicine, while promoting Remeron. > If you had even the most remote concept of how legitimate scientific and > medical research is conducted, this would have been blatantly obvious to > you. This is the most flawed excuse for medical research that I have > ever read. > > Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > > drug? > If you had followed this group for more than a few hours you would have > known Norm’s sleep disorder history. > > I believe I suffer from CSA, > "I believe I suffer from CSA" Say what? Either you have CSA or you do > not have CSA, which is it? Have you had a PSG done in a certified sleep > lab, and been diagnosed with CSA as a result of this study by a > credential sleep medicine physician ? > Note: This so called "findings" made no mention of Remeron as a > treatment for CSA., only OSA. > > and Remeron has given me the best > > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > How long have you been taking Remeron? Why was it prescribed for you. > What type of doctor wrote the prescription? What do you mean by "best > sleep" ? Have you been diagnosed by a sleep medicine physician as having > OSA? What is the nature and history of your sleep disorder(s)? > > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > > godsend to others. > It almost *godsent* me into the E.R. Remeron is a powerful sertatogenic > (sp?) drug that has been approved for the treatment of depression, only. > It should be prescribed only by a neurologist, psychiatrist or other > specialist that has specialized training with phychotropic medications > of this nature. Remeron has substantial potential for causing some very > serious side effects. > It will be a LONNNNNNNGGGGGG time before Remeron is subjected to REAL > scientific testing as a potential treatment for OSA, and given FDA > approval as a treatment for OSA. I aint holding my breath.

– Take out the TRASH, if you want to email me….

Response:

Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a godsend to others.

Response:

"John_E" <do_not_rep…@mail.com> wrote in message

news:bf3dfb43.0306100757.689805ea@posting.google.com… > Why are you so against the findings that Remeron can help people who > suffer from sleep apnea? Do you have apnea, and have you tried the > drug? I believe I suffer from CSA, and Remeron has given me the best > sleep in 10 years, although from previous experience, I know that I > must take it for a longer period of time before fully endorsing it. > Remeron probably *won’t* work for some people, but it clearly is a > godsend to others.

———————————– You say you "believe" you suffer from CSA. Have you been thru a full-blown sleep study?Without the study, there’s no way you can know if you have CSA or OSA. And, if not, what kind of a doctor gave you a prescription without the diagnostic study? Hal S.

Response:

Excessive Daytime Sleepine