re; i feel down and alone ( long)

Question:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My dear family; I use now for months remeron 30mg, and i thought that it would be better now. But i was wrong, i still don’t sleep, and i don’t feel very happy. My sex life is on the north pool, and when i ask Roel when will this be better the only thing he say is, when your head is clear than will that be back. But he has the same answer on everything, if it is sleep, sex, doing things in the house. Dammn always the same answer. This morning i have made a call to the hospital to ask if my psychotherapist is better, ( she is ill from half dec;) no she is not back. What for the hell !! how can i talk with somebody who is not there, and than Roel When i was there the last time? Don’t worry everything will be alright. All the things what whe talkt abaut, they don’t care. But they leave me with feelings that i can’t give a place, and that is not fair. The time that Albert had canser and that he was almost dead, All the things abaut my father and mother, that i miss those two so much, and the miscarriage i had just before my mother died, He has it always over the time that i went to school, yes that was not the best part of my life, 6 years after the world war 2, i went to the first time to school, and it was here in the Netherlands so that you had to go to school on saterday, Whe did that not, i am sevenday adventist. the next thing was that i was a jude, and that that imbo from germany had forget us. And that where not only the other childeren but also the teachers. this has take place for 3 years and after that everybody who had the nerve to call me name’s they went KO, so that is something that i take care for. but when i have to believe Roel, than was this the cause from my P/A. maybe the horss who was on the run in street where i live’t at that time. these are all things what they brought up in me, and now they leave me on myself. Roel don’t has the time, or he don’t want take the time i don’t know anymore but i will ask him when i see him again, and he better has a good answer. Who the hell he thinks he is? but this will not happend again, When i talk to him again i will ask him if he wants this for a while, not long 6 months will do it, but he has the P/A 4 times a day. for every meal and before he goes to bed. That will do it, and than shall i say to him, Clean your head and everything will be ok. thank you for listen. Love Diana.

Hi Diana, I am so sorry to see that you are still struggling. You sounded a bit more up a few weeks ago. Has anything changed to make you feel this bad again? Roel doesn’t seem to me to be helping you as much as he should. Would you consider a different therapist? Thinking of you Diana. Love from Caz..x — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:

Whoa..

Question:

ML, not sure if this is any consolation…..I had a very similar conversation last week with a friend of mine, still married after 30 years, about to send her youngest son off to college in the fall. We were talking about all his acceptance papers, planning, forms etc and she mentioned this same thing. Could it be related to the kids’ ages? She felt that is had more to do with her past 26 years of her life being very much devoted to being "Mom" and now seeing that they really didn’t need the Mom she had been but a different Mom. She felt it had more to do with that than anything else. She said that in many respects she looks at her kids and feels she doesn’t know them anymore and has this sense of loss although she knows it isn’t a loss. Just thought I would toss that into your mix!  ;-) Denise – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-  Xe  shopping w/my 21-yr old (i was at their house cooking dinner tonight) and ran into his 4th grade teacher.  What a flashback, brought back that whole piece of life when i was so involved with my kids, their school, etc – all the good things i miss from then.  Got me thinking of how much has changed, and kind of disoriented like who the heck AM i?  That was 10 years ago.  I don’t know if that person was me or i’m somebody who replaced that person. Maybe i’ve been in denial of what i actually lost. Sometimes i’m not sure who i am or what is my role in life.  I don’t know if the going back and forth between both households is healthy for my head or not.  Still, i’m not giving up seeing them as long as they’re around, and it’s the way it is going to be. Once they’re both out on their own, i won’t have to go back to my old home anymore. Just a step backward, i guess.  I’ll get back on track.

Response:

I know the two-home situation that is an outcome of your divorce, and your current living situation where the boys don’t visit you, has been really tough on you ML.  Everyone who goes through divorce with kids, especially the NCP, has a difficult life challenge facing them.  The emotional strain must be overwhelming at times? You’re so incredibly strong and wise, ML. I’m confident with you more than most, that you’ll find your new identity as the mother of two young adult men soon, and settle into the role with the grace and confidence with which you face every other part of your life.

Thank you.  They’re almost grown, by June i’ll have no more minor children. Then i can take a deep breath and let life start winding down "my work is finished" sort of thing.  Thank goodness.  It’s almost a sense of opening up the page to the very last chapter of a very long book.

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That was beautifully put Janie. Megan – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You’re so incredibly strong and wise, ML. I’m confident with you more than most, that you’ll find your new identity as the mother of two young adult men soon, and settle into the role with the grace and confidence with which you face every other part of your life. Hugs, Janie — "The deepest principle in human nature is the craving to be appreciated."  –William James

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x

SD & BD gifts from MIL

Question:

>Anyway, this ungrateful little @#$% opens up the present, says ‘gee thanks’ >in a nasty tone, then leaves the room talking loudly to his friend that was >there about what a crappy present it was.  Um, excuse me?  His sister and >his stepsister were both extremely gracious and appreciative.  I was frankly >stunned at his rudeness (so was his mom).  Don’t know what my point is, >other than the little brat won’t be getting anything but a card next year.

Eeek!  And, if I was his mom, you would do it with my blessings! So, having many Braxton-Hicks?  Any dilation?  Having sex regularly to soften that cervix?  ;-) Sheila

Response:

"WhansaMi" <whans…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20021226014250.27709.00000208@mb-mk.aol.com… > Eeek!  And, if I was his mom, you would do it with my blessings!

Yep, she and his step-dad both encouraged me not to give him anything, as a matter of fact.  My poor sister was so embarrassed…  You know, I’m still mad at the little shitball.  Made me feel badly that I’d gone to all the trouble of getting him something.  It’s okay, though, I noticed him stashing something later, told my sister about it.  She found a porno tape.  Yikes. Wouldn’t want to be him right now. > So, having many Braxton-Hicks?  Any dilation?  Having sex regularly to soften > that cervix?  ;-)

1. Bite me. 2. No, but the doctor says he’s descending into my pelvis, which is apparently the cause of the hideous (round ligament?) stretching pain I’m having now and again.  My weight gain is apparently all baby, so the skinnier parts of me are having trouble keeping up? 3. And yes, but didn’t know that’s why I was doing it (-: rebecca

Response:

WhansaMi wrote: > My daughter has no control over her genetics.  Her family is who she lives > with, who she celebrates holidays with, who she sends school pictures to, who > she goes to see on vacations.  For a grandparent–or any member of our > family–to treat her as less a member of the family because she was borne to a > different mother… well, that would be unacceptable to me.   If she got to be > an adult, and her behavior was out of line, and people choose not to invite her > holidays or give her gifts, that would be one thing… but, on the basis of > biology?  I have a real problem with that.

Amen!!  And in our case, it’s always been SD who’s been treated like gold, while DH’s and my BKs get ignored.  I don’t get it.  It’s not like they ever liked BM back in the day, though DH and I joke about how much they must love and miss her. ) Jennifer

Response:

"Jennaii" <jenn…@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message

news:20021225165236.07145.00000692@mb-mu.aol.com… > The whole holiday thing can just get out of hand.  It shouldn’t be about how > many presents you get or how much money was spent.  I shouldn’t have to spend > more than I can afford because I *have* to spend equally on all the kids to > keep the parents happy. > It’s too bad the *holiday spirit* can’t just *be what it should be*.

You know, the only really sour point of my holiday came from my nephew (birth nephew) ~ love him dearly, but he’s 14.  I guess I have kind of a reputation with the nieces and nephews, I do like to spoil them.  Anyway, this year, being hugely pregnant and about to take a lot of time off work, I really scaled back the holiday.  Wasn’t even going to get the kids _anything_, but then it turns out that we were going to see them, so we picked up small gifts for each child that would be present.  (Stiffed the rest, birth, step, all of them…) Anyway, this ungrateful little @#$% opens up the present, says ‘gee thanks’ in a nasty tone, then leaves the room talking loudly to his friend that was there about what a crappy present it was.  Um, excuse me?  His sister and his stepsister were both extremely gracious and appreciative.  I was frankly stunned at his rudeness (so was his mom).  Don’t know what my point is, other than the little brat won’t be getting anything but a card next year. I’m trying to resist the urge to get his sisters something super-duper nice just to be vindictive. rebecca

Response:

>Which is not big in Omaha, Nebraska.  

Gee, my sister and her husband seem to have figured it out.  :-) *** Geri ***

Response:

Jennaii wrote: > Men do NOT see presents the same way women do.  My DH’s family always draws > names but gets each "couple" a little "something" too.  I always make sure the > "getting a little something for each couple" is covered because he simply > wouldn’t do it.

But you can’t generalize about it…My FIL has always been extremely conscientious about thinking about the family.  He constantly mails letters about what he’s up to–probably twice a month–and has written his family story.  In addition, he sends cards for every birthday and holiday, even DH’s and my anniversary.  He does this on his own (he left DH’s mom in ‘93).  He will fall over his feet to be loving and warm to SD, but he has little affection for the other kids.  Perhaps it’s b/c he left the area to move down to Florida before the other 3 kids were born… But he certainly understands the value of a card per kid, IYKWIM. > I, on the other hand, truly agonize and drive myself crazy each year at > Christmas trying to find these "couple / family" gifts for people that I hardly > know.  It really sucks.

I would love to buy couple/family gifts, but I don’t, b/c I know my friends would feel obligated to get us something in return, and I don’t want to do that to them. Jennifer

Response:

WhansaMi wrote: > In response to the specific question, IMO, Christmas gifts are different than > contributions for daily lives.  If my one of my grandchildren was in > considerably reduced circumstances (as opposed to another), I would help the > *parents* to whatever degree I thought appropriate throughout the year.  If the > parents were unable to provide Christmas presents for the child, I would > provide the parents with the means to do so.  I would not put extra gifts under > the tree from me.  The gifts that the children recieved *from me* would be > comparable to one another, no matter what the circumstances.  That is the way I > believe it should be done in order to avoid the appearance of favoritism.

Exactly.  Jennaii, here’s a real world example… My parents are not very well off financially, so I try to support them where I can.  All 4 of us kids make good money, but DH and I make the most.  We came up with the idea of getting money together to give my dad to put toward purchasing hearing aids.  There was just *one* check for $2,000, and the letter was from all four kids, with names at the bottom in birth order (I’m the youngest and last).  However, I actually contributed $1,000, my one brother contributed $500, and my other brother and my sister each contributed $250. To have made it clear who gave what would have been a clear reason to engender favoritism wars and such–as a matter of fact, my sibs were originally concerned that the whole present idea might degenerate into "who loves Dad best," etc.  But we worked it out with clear consciences, and all of us are okay about giving as we can give.  The bottom line is, my father doesn’t know anything other than he has a check, and he doesn’t have the opportunity to learn who contributed more.  *That’s* how it can be done. If Sheila’s FIL had $10 bucks to spend, better to send $2.50 apiece than $4 to two and $1 to the other two. Jennifer

Response:

WhansaMi wrote: > Well, I’ll respectfully disagree.  I do think that all the grandkids should be > treated pretty much equally.  That isn’t to say that it should be penny for > penny, but within a reasonable range?  Yep.  As I said earlier one needn’t > spend more money doing it than one intended.  All one has to do it distribute > it differently.

And I’m just talking about cards, not even gifts.  SD16 got her own card, mailed to her.  The other card was to "DH, Jenny, and kids" (lol–no names)–for the other 3 kids, plus DH and me.  Er, a card to 5 people?  And SD merits her own? That’s just blatant.  This has nothing to do with money, b/c I don’t even *want* his parents to spend any money on us.  We have far more than they do, and I hate when they buy us stuff that we can’t even use, when I know that they could use the money on necessities for themselves. Jennifer

Response:

WhansaMi wrote: > >I agree that there’s not necessarily any insult intended IRT giving less to a > >baby.  *However*, we still deal with this crap IRT my in-laws treating SD16 > >like > >a princess and ignoring the fact DH and I have 3 BKs together.  The latest > >delightful passive-aggressive smack from FIL was a check and a card to > >SD16–"happy new year to you and your mom," to our address of course–and no > >card at all to the other kids.  We got a card to DH and me, with a check "to > >get > >something for the kids."  When SD was 8, she got her own card, for crying out > >loud…the twins are 8 now, and even the youngest, at 4, loves to get mail! > >What can you do…some people just suck. > Well, I think this is where that whole "natural consequences" thing comes in.

Yeah.  We don’t have those warm & fuzzy feelings toward the in-laws (his parents). I would love to have in-laws to whom I felt close, but that’s just life, ya know? The good thing is, my parents love DH probably more than they love me.  ;-)))  I try to imagine that his parents just feel sorry for SD and that’s why they always treat her like gold.  Doesn’t exactly explain why my own kids get ignored, but oh well…maybe that would be their natural inclination, were it not for guilt about SD or something.  :-)  (Like how I’m trying to rationalize all this?) > LOL!   Did Santa bring you–uh, the kids– what you wanted?

You know it.  :-)  Remember DH and I are leaving the country next week…AHHHHHHHH… Can’t wait!  :-D  Meanwhile, the kids were thrilled at Santa’s generosity, and DD8 has her own *pink* Gameboy Advance, lol.  :-) Jennifer P.S.  DH and SD go skiing at Whitetail in 6 hours!!  I wish I could go, too!!!!!!!

Response:

I apologize.  My husband agrees with you – 100%. Grandpa should send a check for the "other child" a week before Christmas for $ huge amount.  On Christmas the kids should all receive checks for the same amount.  That way all children feel equally loved.   I still disagree.  I just haven’t quite figured out how to word it, since DH was so ADAMENT that his daughter deserves just as much as the fatherless neices and nephews born of sisters who refuse to practice birth control or show any self control.   In *my* mind its about being whats best for the KIDS.  Who are born already. And not about birth control.  Which is not big in Omaha, Nebraska.   But my DH’s thought is that his daughter should get an equal amount to all other kids, regardless of outside financial input.  Period.  Whatever. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->In response to the specific question, IMO, Christmas gifts are different than >contributions for daily lives.  If my one of my grandchildren was in >considerably reduced circumstances (as opposed to another), I would help the >*parents* to whatever degree I thought appropriate throughout the year.  If >the >parents were unable to provide Christmas presents for the child, I would >provide the parents with the means to do so.  I would not put extra gifts >under >the tree from me.  The gifts that the children recieved *from me* would be >comparable to one another, no matter what the circumstances.  That is the way >I >believe it should be done in order to avoid the appearance of favoritism.   >However, in our case, none of the grandkids are significantly better or worse >off than any of the others.  I would also like to say that my family, and my >DH’s family, share my view about this.  This is not something I am imposing >on >them as an outsider–as I mentioned before, all BIL, SIL and (deceased) MIL >come from the same worldview.  That is the norm within this family, and >surely >FIL is aware of this.  That he chooses to disregard the norm is his choice, >and >his decision to live with. >Sheila >>"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger >>Jennaii

"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

>I apologize.  

Apology accepted.  :-)   My husband agrees with you – 100%. >Grandpa should send a check for the "other child" a week before Christmas for >$ >huge amount.  On Christmas the kids should all receive checks for the same >amount.  That way all children feel equally loved.   >I still disagree.  I just haven’t quite figured out how to word it, since DH >was so ADAMENT that his daughter deserves just as much as the fatherless >neices >and nephews born of sisters who refuse to practice birth control or show any >self control.   >In *my* mind its about being whats best for the KIDS.  Who are born already. >And not about birth control.  Which is not big in Omaha, Nebraska.  

That is why I would slip the non-birth-control-taking mothers some money before Christmas, or, if the those moms really had no self-control, buy the gifts, wrap ‘em, put tags on ‘em saying "from Santa" and put ‘em under the kid’s tree.  I wouldn’t want to see any of my grandkids "going without" at Christmas.  I just don’t think that they–or their cousins– need to know I’m the one doing it. I guess I’m thinking that part of "what’s best for the kids" is to see Grandma/Grandpa treating everyone equally.  Especially when the reason that they are being treated "less equally" is totally out of their control, such as their genetic background.   As you may remember, I have an adopted daughter.  Since my aunt died (my aunt was her biological grandmother) she has no living biological grandparents.  The thought of my father (who, by the way, sent nothing to any of the grandkids this year–and that was fine!) treating her differently because she isn’t "of his blood" would be very disturbing to me. His wife (now deceased) did that for the first six months after DD’s adoption.  She wouldn’t even call her by name. Kept calling her "the girl".   My daughter has no control over her genetics.  Her family is who she lives with, who she celebrates holidays with, who she sends school pictures to, who she goes to see on vacations.  For a grandparent–or any member of our family–to treat her as less a member of the family because she was borne to a different mother… well, that would be unacceptable to me.   If she got to be an adult, and her behavior was out of line, and people choose not to invite her holidays or give her gifts, that would be one thing… but, on the basis of biology?  I have a real problem with that.   JMO Sheila

Response:

>Hey, look… he has every right in the world to give to whom he wants and >spend >what he wants to spend.  I’m not contesting that at all.  But, again, actions >have consequences.  He wants my kids to call him "Grandpa".  He wants to be >the >"family patriarch".  And, then he does stuff like this, and he wonders why >people distance themselves from him.  

If your kids like calling him "Grandpa" they should.  And if they don’t want to they shouldn’t.  "Grandpa" is like Mom and Dad to me.  If you *feel it* it’s great.  If you don’t it’s just a word.  And NO, don’t force them.  They don’t *have* to call him anything but "sir". SD’s presents from our side of the family this year:  A new computer, (from DH).  TV / VCR combo, (yes, again, hopefully mom won’t sell this one), DVD player, multiple movies, computer games, DVD’s and CDs. Her cousins presents (on her mothers side):  underwear,  new clothes. I hope that tomorrow when they go to BM’s parents that her family will have spent the majority of their money on the OTHER COUSINS.   Do I think SD will feel the least bit deprived?  Well I should hope not.   She knows that she is considered the "priveledged" kid.   In my opinion it’s ridiculous to treat all kids equal when all kids circumstances are not equal.   If there is a dollar value attached to my love then Salvation Army won over SD and my neices and nephews.  Thats just stupid. "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

For me, this is about communicating whether or not my >children will ever be *real* members of his family or not, in his opinion. >FIL told us he was sending >money and to pick something up for the kids.  We did, assuming the check >would >be about what it was last year ($50).  When the mail came, checks for that >amount were made out to my SDs, and one check for $50 was made to us with the >notation "for A &T").   >Sheila

So in your mind your children won’t be considered "real members" of the family unless a specified contribution is met?  Maybe you should just *specify* the amount required. Next:  Will all the children be *equally* financially covered after this "donation? is met"  As I mentioned, my SD is significantly more financially "covered" than her cousins just by her Father and I.   Ok lets just cut to the chase.  SD’s college is covered, along with transportation, (a car), and a place to live.  Until she graduates from college, (and hell, after that too). Her cousins have no such financial support coming,  *ever*.  They live in a freakin slum neighborhood and have no father so their mother’s minimum wage job is all they have to live on.  Grandma and Grandpa substantially support their livelihood.   It’s ridiculous to even SUGGEST that Grandma loves my SD less because she financially supports the other kids more.   "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

>For me, this is about communicating whether or not my >>children will ever be *real* members of his family or not, in his opinion. >So in your mind your children won’t be considered "real members" of the >family >unless a specified contribution is met?

  Maybe you should just *specify* the >amount required.

Not at all.  I specifically said that it wasn’t about absolute numbers.  I’d much rather all four kids got $5 gifts than two get $25 and two getting $50. In the previous post, when I said that we were in better financial shape than we’ve ever been in, I meant to add another sentence:  We do not want or need FIL to supplement our gifts to our children.  This isn’t about the amount spent.  I don’t know how to make that more clear. >Next:  Will all the children be *equally* financially covered after this >"donation? is met"  As I mentioned, my SD is significantly more financially >"covered" than her cousins just by her Father and I.   >Ok lets just cut to the chase.  SD’s college is covered, along with >transportation, (a car), and a place to live.  Until she graduates from >college, (and hell, after that too). >Her cousins have no such financial support coming,  *ever*.  They live in a >freakin slum neighborhood and have no father so their mother’s minimum wage >job >is all they have to live on.  Grandma and Grandpa substantially support their >livelihood.   It’s ridiculous to even SUGGEST that Grandma loves my SD less >because she financially supports the other kids more.  

First of all, I’d like to keep this conversation civil.  I, very respectfully, disagreed with you.  I do not sense the same tone in your response.  I shall try once again, but I’m not inclined to enter into a conversation where sarcasm reigns. In response to the specific question, IMO, Christmas gifts are different than contributions for daily lives.  If my one of my grandchildren was in considerably reduced circumstances (as opposed to another), I would help the *parents* to whatever degree I thought appropriate throughout the year.  If the parents were unable to provide Christmas presents for the child, I would provide the parents with the means to do so.  I would not put extra gifts under the tree from me.  The gifts that the children recieved *from me* would be comparable to one another, no matter what the circumstances.  That is the way I believe it should be done in order to avoid the appearance of favoritism.   However, in our case, none of the grandkids are significantly better or worse off than any of the others.  I would also like to say that my family, and my DH’s family, share my view about this.  This is not something I am imposing on them as an outsider–as I mentioned before, all BIL, SIL and (deceased) MIL come from the same worldview.  That is the norm within this family, and surely FIL is aware of this.  That he chooses to disregard the norm is his choice, and his decision to live with. Sheila – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger >Jennaii

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>FIL >>went into a nursing home this year.  I guess since he had all that time on >>his >>hands, he decided to distribute the presents himself… and he sent my kids >>1/2 >>what he did DH’s kids. >Men do NOT see presents the same way women do.  My DH’s family always draws >names but gets each "couple" a little "something" too.  I always make sure >the >"getting a little something for each couple" is covered because he simply >wouldn’t do it. >DH likes his family.  He just thinks this is unnecessary.  He doesn’t place a >dollar value on the relationship and doesn’t see any point in trying to find >something "special" for each family.  He is an "impulse" buyer.  If he sees >something his brother will like he buys it on the spur of the moment.  If he >doesn’t "fall into" a gift he doesn’t buy that person one.  He means no >insult. > He doesn’t play favorites, and I’ve noticed that it’s only *man* gifts that >he >does this with, (being a *man thing*, I think).  I know I’m not explaining >this >well. >I, on the other hand, truly agonize and drive myself crazy each year at >Christmas trying to find these "couple / family" gifts for people that I >hardly >know.  It really sucks. >"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger >Jennaii

My FIL didn’t send any presents at all.  He wrote checks.  SDs’ checks were exactly twice that of my kids. My aunt lived in a converted garage, and her grandkids/step-grandkids/adopted grandkids never got anything that was worth over $10 each, but they all were treated equally. Hey, look… he has every right in the world to give to whom he wants and spend what he wants to spend.  I’m not contesting that at all.  But, again, actions have consequences.  He wants my kids to call him "Grandpa".  He wants to be the "family patriarch".  And, then he does stuff like this, and he wonders why people distance themselves from him.   Well, I guess if he asks, I’ll tell him… but, I don’t think the next time my DH complains about the stuff he does, I’m going to be very inclined to try to smooth the wrinkles and defend him. Sheila

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Hey, look… he has every right in the world to give to whom he wants and >>spend >>what he wants to spend.  I’m not contesting that at all.  But, again, >actions >>have consequences.  He wants my kids to call him "Grandpa".  He wants to be >>the >>"family patriarch".  And, then he does stuff like this, and he wonders why >>people distance themselves from him.   >If your kids like calling him "Grandpa" they should.  And if they don’t want >to >they shouldn’t.  "Grandpa" is like Mom and Dad to me.  If you *feel it* it’s >great.  If you don’t it’s just a word.  And NO, don’t force them.  They don’t >*have* to call him anything but "sir". >SD’s presents from our side of the family this year:  A new computer, (from >DH).  TV / VCR combo, (yes, again, hopefully mom won’t sell this one), DVD >player, multiple movies, computer games, DVD’s and CDs. >Her cousins presents (on her mothers side):  underwear,  new clothes. >I hope that tomorrow when they go to BM’s parents that her family will have >spent the majority of their money on the OTHER COUSINS.   Do I think SD will >feel the least bit deprived?  Well I should hope not.   She knows that she is >considered the "priveledged" kid.   In my opinion it’s ridiculous to treat >all >kids equal when all kids circumstances are not equal.   If there is a dollar >value attached to my love then Salvation Army won over SD and my neices and >nephews.  Thats just stupid.

Well, I’ll respectfully disagree.  I do think that all the grandkids should be treated pretty much equally.  That isn’t to say that it should be penny for penny, but within a reasonable range?  Yep.  As I said earlier one needn’t spend more money doing it than one intended.  All one has to do it distribute it differently. This isn’t about the absolute amount of money.  Frankly, we are in a better place, financially, than we have ever been.  For me, this is about the metacommunication.  For me, this is about communicating whether or not my children will ever be *real* members of his family or not, in his opinion. Apparently, they aren’t. That’s fine.  My MIL thought they were, my two BsIL and SIL  think they are…. if FIL doesn’t see it that way, then that is his perrogative.  But, then he shouldn’t expect *us* to act as if we are *real* members of the family. He can’t have it both ways.   BTW, my kids (and my SKs don’t know about this.  FIL told us he was sending money and to pick something up for the kids.  We did, assuming the check would be about what it was last year ($50).  When the mail came, checks for that amount were made out to my SDs, and one check for $50 was made to us with the notation "for A &T").  We certainly didn’t take the tags off the already wrapped gifts.  We’ll simply absorb the additional cost of the gifts.   Sheila

Response:

On 25 Dec 2002 21:52:36 GMT, jenn…@aol.comnojunk (Jennaii) wrote: <snipped> >The whole holiday thing can just get out of hand.  It shouldn’t be about how >many presents you get or how much money was spent.  I shouldn’t have to spend >more than I can afford because I *have* to spend equally on all the kids to >keep the parents happy.   >It’s too bad the *holiday spirit* can’t just *be what it should be*. >I’ve had a really long holiday myself… I think maybe this has turned into a >personal vent too so forgive me and thanks for letting me get this out of my >system…..

Hey, can I join in on your vent? YS isn’t with us for Christmas this year.  He’s at his BF’s.  Chewy and I decided that we’d have our "family celebration" after he gets back, in January.  OS and YD translated that to them not being able to open *any* gifts until January.  Can we say, "Not happy?" After throwing around a whole lot of attitude last night and most of this morning, YD finally told us that what was really bugging her had nothing to do with the gifts and everything to do with her wishing YS were here.  Is this child *ever* going to learn to tell us what’s really bugging her before she spends hours making the entire household miserable because she’s got a problem? As far as presents go, we’ve not spent a whole lot this year.  YD’s been bugging us for a new door on her bedroom, so she’s getting that. The boys mentioned a few months ago that they’d like to have CD players of their own, like YD has, so we’re getting those.  We’re putting new video cards (which were a gift to Chewy from a co-worker who knew we were looking for some)  in each of their computers.  And each of them is getting a book.   Kitten =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= You can always tell a Texan, but you can’t tell him much.  - Chris Wall =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Courage, Real courage, is no quick fix.  It doesn’t come in a bottle or a pill, It comes from discipline.  From taking everything life hands you and being your best either because of it or in spite of it. — Ty Murray =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Response:

S&W wrote: > But I know where you are coming from.  We had this issue rear it’s ugly head > this year with my SO’s mom.  She bought one girl a nice watch and the other > a huge stereo.  I hope they are old enough to realize that the gifts really > are comparable.  Maya, btw, got a Raggedy Ann doll, which I know she will > love.

I agree that there’s not necessarily any insult intended IRT giving less to a baby.  *However*, we still deal with this crap IRT my in-laws treating SD16 like a princess and ignoring the fact DH and I have 3 BKs together.  The latest delightful passive-aggressive smack from FIL was a check and a card to SD16–"happy new year to you and your mom," to our address of course–and no card at all to the other kids.  We got a card to DH and me, with a check "to get something for the kids."  When SD was 8, she got her own card, for crying out loud…the twins are 8 now, and even the youngest, at 4, loves to get mail! What can you do…some people just suck. Anyway, I’m very excited about Christmas!  Just a few more hours and I can tear into–I mean, the kids can enjoy their gifts!  WOOHOO! Hugs to all and holiday greetings– Jennifer

Response:

>I agree that there’s not necessarily any insult intended IRT giving less to a >baby.  *However*, we still deal with this crap IRT my in-laws treating SD16 >like >a princess and ignoring the fact DH and I have 3 BKs together.  The latest >delightful passive-aggressive smack from FIL was a check and a card to >SD16–"happy new year to you and your mom," to our address of course–and no >card at all to the other kids.  We got a card to DH and me, with a check "to >get >something for the kids."  When SD was 8, she got her own card, for crying out >loud…the twins are 8 now, and even the youngest, at 4, loves to get mail! >What can you do…some people just suck.

Well, I think this is where that whole "natural consequences" thing comes in.   My MIL always made sure to treat my kids equally (not her biological grandkids, and this was both after and before DH and I were legally married).  She died nearly two years ago.  Last Xmas my SIL did my FIL’s sending out of presents, and she gave to all four of "our" kids equally–the same as my MIL did.  My FIL went into a nursing home this year.  I guess since he had all that time on his hands, he decided to distribute the presents himself… and he sent my kids 1/2 what he did DH’s kids. Now this is a man who doesn’t elicit a whole lot of warm feelings from any of his kids.  On this end, I have been the one who reminds DH that he is a lonely old man, and needs someone to talk to (when he calls us daily, and interrupts dinner, sleep, sex or some other activity) and made sure that he got a Christmas present from us, etc. The natural consequence of his treating my kids as "lesser than" is that I’m not going to be able to froth up as many warm, fuzzy feelings toward him.  I’m going to be less inclined to go out of my way, or encourage DH to go out of his way, to do nice things for the man.  I’m sure there will be an impact. >Anyway, I’m very excited about Christmas!  Just a few more hours and I can >tear >into–I mean, the kids can enjoy their gifts!  WOOHOO!

LOL!   Did Santa bring you–uh, the kids– what you wanted? Sheila – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hugs to all and holiday greetings– >Jennifer

Response:

>My MIL always made sure to treat my kids equally (not her biological >grandkids, >and this was both after and before DH and I were legally married).  She died >nearly two years ago.  Last Xmas my SIL did my FIL’s sending out of presents, >and she gave to all four of "our" kids equally–the same as my MIL did.  My >FIL >went into a nursing home this year.  I guess since he had all that time on >his >hands, he decided to distribute the presents himself… and he sent my kids >1/2 >what he did DH’s kids.

Men do NOT see presents the same way women do.  My DH’s family always draws names but gets each "couple" a little "something" too.  I always make sure the "getting a little something for each couple" is covered because he simply wouldn’t do it. DH likes his family.  He just thinks this is unnecessary.  He doesn’t place a dollar value on the relationship and doesn’t see any point in trying to find something "special" for each family.  He is an "impulse" buyer.  If he sees something his brother will like he buys it on the spur of the moment.  If he doesn’t "fall into" a gift he doesn’t buy that person one.  He means no insult.  He doesn’t play favorites, and I’ve noticed that it’s only *man* gifts that he does this with, (being a *man thing*, I think).  I know I’m not explaining this well. I, on the other hand, truly agonize and drive myself crazy each year at Christmas trying to find these "couple / family" gifts for people that I hardly know.  It really sucks. "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

>It wasn’t the volume of the difference that bothered me, although it was a >pretty notable gap, but the level of thoughtfulness.  I want to think that >this is just because people don’t know how to shop for babies, but my >instinct tells me that more is going on than that.

My brother’s daughter and son, (the twins) are 4.  I get them US Saving bonds for Christmas and birthdays.   This has been my "thing" since they were born, (my older sister has recently started this too).   They get tons of toys from the grandparents and aunts and uncles, and of course Mom and Dad.  Their house looks embarrassingly like a toy store on the holidays.  I always spend LESS on them than the other kids, who are all teenagers now.  So what?  Do I love them less?  NO WAY!  IF I see something really special, (usually a handmade wooden puzzle or something equally INCREDIBLE), I buy it for them and give it to them regardless of whether it’s a "gift moment" or not.  I don’t think the other kids are jealous in any way, shape, or form.  And I don’t think the twins  even NOTICE that they don’t have a big doll or toy truck under the tree from me, considering the toyland that surrounds them. "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

>I guess I don’t really have any questions – just venting.  I can’t talk to >DH about this.  It’s his mother and it already breaks his heart to realize >that she’s nuts.  

I can’t talk to my DH about *his* family either, (should I say DUH! here?).  I get along GREAT with his two sisters-in-law.  They are very sweet and thoughtful women and I could just hug them both to death.   And his brothers are great.  His Mom is ok too, (she is very VERY verbal about treating all the kids equally (financially) regardless of birth / step / adopted or whatever). And she gives me the greatest gift of all: she is genuinely thoughtful and nice to me and makes me feel "at home". DH’s sister is a witch.  But, by golly, she spends the same on everyone.  I’d rather her lavish me with niceness and not get me any presents at all.  I mean this with all my heart.  Expensive gifts from someone who treats you like *shit* 50% of the time are gifts bought out of guilt or necessity, not love, and cannot possible "make up" for her meanness.  (I had a rough weekend with her, can you tell?) Which also makes me wonder about *my* brother and his wife.  Does it bother them that I don’t spend the same money on the twins that I do the other kids, (including my "excellent" nephew (her son) who we adopted before the twins were born)?   They are my brother’s *only* "birth" children, so he could see it as *his* children getting less.   The whole holiday thing can just get out of hand.  It shouldn’t be about how many presents you get or how much money was spent.  I shouldn’t have to spend more than I can afford because I *have* to spend equally on all the kids to keep the parents happy.   It’s too bad the *holiday spirit* can’t just *be what it should be*. I’ve had a really long holiday myself… I think maybe this has turned into a personal vent too so forgive me and thanks for letting me get this out of my system….. "This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" — Bob Seger Jennaii

Response:

"Lot’’s Wife Productions" <lotsw…@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:D1rN9.9138$p_6.708826@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net… > It wasn’t the volume of the difference that bothered me, although it was a > pretty notable gap, but the level of thoughtfulness.  I want to think that > this is just because people don’t know how to shop for babies, but my > instinct tells me that more is going on than that.

I have a BD12, a SD10 and a BD2. The 12 & 10 y.o. each got a ton of gifts from us, but our 2 y.o. got quite a bit less, and we didn’t spend even close to what we spent on the older two. Maya (the toddler) is pretty much into ripping the paper off the pkg and throwing the gift aside right now.  Last year, she wasn’t even that into Christmas, and she got *wayyyyy* less than she is getting this year. I would definitely chalk it up to the baby still being a baby and not being completely aware of what Christmas is, and the fact that Christmas is expensive!  I told my mom, and everyone else who asked, that Maya would be happy with just a color book.  It really isn’t necessary to go overboard for an infant’s first Christmas. But I know where you are coming from.  We had this issue rear it’s ugly head this year with my SO’s mom.  She bought one girl a nice watch and the other a huge stereo.  I hope they are old enough to realize that the gifts really are comparable.  Maya, btw, got a Raggedy Ann doll, which I know she will love. Have a great Christmas with your baby! shay

Response:

A little background:  My MIL is friends with BM’s mother.  DH & I have **BIG** and constant problems with BM, and lines have been drawn in our custody battle.  MIL (& FIL for that matter, they’re divorced) pretend to be Switzerland – with a don’t ask policy.  We’ve tried to open their eyes to what’s really going on, but they don’t have the faintest idea how to support their son – never even asked if they could help in any way, and when we try to tell them what’s been going on, they tell DH that they would rather not know.  Everyone, both BM & DH’s families are across the country so DH & I can live with his parents’ idiotic inability to support him. Here’s the issue.  We got an enormous box of gifts this year from MIL for SD10 & BD7mo.   We don’t have SD for Xmas this year, so we opened the gifts early with her.  SD got about 8 gifts from MIL – all of them super thoughtful, and some expensive for her.  BD got 2 outfits (not in the slightest bit special either),  and a toy that on the box was written that it was for a 3mo. It wasn’t the volume of the difference that bothered me, although it was a pretty notable gap, but the level of thoughtfulness.  I want to think that this is just because people don’t know how to shop for babies, but my instinct tells me that more is going on than that. I guess I don’t really have any questions – just venting.  I can’t talk to DH about this.  It’s his mother and it already breaks his heart to realize that she’s nuts.  BM and she were cut from the same cloth.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->A little background:  My MIL is friends with BM’s mother.  DH & I have >**BIG** and constant problems with BM, and lines have been drawn in our >custody battle.  MIL (& FIL for that matter, they’re divorced) pretend to be >Switzerland – with a don’t ask policy.  We’ve tried to open their eyes to >what’s really going on, but they don’t have the faintest idea how to support >their son – never even asked if they could help in any way, and when we try >to tell them what’s been going on, they tell DH that they would rather not >know.  Everyone, both BM & DH’s families are across the country so DH & I >can live with his parents’ idiotic inability to support him. >Here’s the issue.  We got an enormous box of gifts this year from MIL for >SD10 & BD7mo.   We don’t have SD for Xmas this year, so we opened the gifts >early with her.  SD got about 8 gifts from MIL – all of them super >thoughtful, and some expensive for her.  BD got 2 outfits (not in the >slightest bit special either),  and a toy that on the box was written that >it was for a 3mo. >It wasn’t the volume of the difference that bothered me, although it was a >pretty notable gap, but the level of thoughtfulness.  I want to think that >this is just because people don’t know how to shop for babies, but my >instinct tells me that more is going on than that. >I guess I don’t really have any questions – just venting.  I can’t talk to >DH about this.  It’s his mother and it already breaks his heart to realize >that she’s nuts.  BM and she were cut from the same cloth.

Wooohoooo!!  And here I thought we’d have to go the whole Christmas season without the "present" discussion! (I’m sorry if it seems I’m making light of this issue… I’m not.  I was just, earlier today, thinking about the fact there hasn’t been a single thread this year! ) Actually, I agree with you.  In fact, I even go further than you do (assuming that the 7 month old is your husband’s biological daughter), and believe that grandparents should give to biological and *step*-grandchildren equally.   I guess, however, given that this is your MIL’s biological grandchild too, I’d give her the benefit of the doubt this year, and attribute it to the younger child’s age.  A lot of people, especially those of the older generation, don’t really see the point in doing a lot for infants/toddlers for the holidays. Their viewpoint is that the child doesn’t understand or remember, and that as parents, you make sure that the kid has what *you* want him to have. My FIL insulted my DH at my YSD’s christening 18 years ago by saying something about her being a "lump"… or something to that effect.  It brought about a 5 year estrangement.  While I understand my DH’s feelings, I also understand that my FIL didn’t think he said anything wrong.  To him, as to many of that era, until the baby started smiling at people, started interacting with people and things, and started moving on their own, they really weren’t people. I’d say let it go this year. Sheila

Response:

Sleep Sex In Marriage– Is It RAPE?

Question:

That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true in the case of a woman raping a man.

I don’t think that is the issue here.  In any criminal case the burden of proof is on the state to demonstrate guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable doubt. In a situation where a wife claims maritial rape and where the couple is not estranged and there is no corrobating evidence (injury consistent with spousal abuse, overheard screams, prior domestic violence complaints, etc.), there is really no way to prove anything. Rape kit evidence is useless when the occurance of sexual intercourse is not in dispute. Sex between a husband and wife will generally be considered consentual without evidence to the contrary.  This has nothing to do with any presumption of bodily ownership.  One person’s word against another is simply not enough.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Which states?  As far as I know all 50 states have laws against marital rape.  The caveat is that many of the states do allow an exemption under certain conditions like time frame in which the rape must be reported, fear of death, few other things, but I can’t remember them all.  You can actually get a listing of all the state law on this by contacting the national clearing house. There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since then.

Despite all laws, thinking morally, marital rape is still rape.  Just because a person is married does not mean they are obligated to have sex with their partner at any given time.  Intercourse is not a vow taken during marriage.  However, you are all current in stating that many states do have laws against it.  They sad thing is that the law tends to shy away from getting involved in domestic messes, which is what marital rape cases fall under.  There are many claims and accusations that float through the system that are false.  Sadly people file claims against spouses for many things just to "get back" at them for something.  Many courts have begun to assume that a lot of these types of claims are untrue and a waste of time.  That’s way you don’t see it successfully proven very often.

Response:

*if* she does not consent to it beforehand?

It is in my state. An offender commits the crime of sexual assault in the second degree if …  (3) the offender engages in sexual penetration with a person who the offender knows is  …  (B) incapacitated;  or  (C) unaware that a sexual act is being committed;

Response:

Sometimes I slept right through it – heh heh – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? It is in my state. An offender commits the crime of sexual assault in the second degree if …  (3) the offender engages in sexual penetration with a person who the offender knows is  …  (B) incapacitated;  or  (C) unaware that a sexual act is being committed;

Response:

That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true in the case of a woman raping a man.

He has a point. Proving a marital rape (or rape by an intimate, while not married) may be more difficult than proving a rape in which the alleged victim/perpetrator were not already sexually involved. Laurie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for certain? "I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger rape does. I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just reported more often).

Response:

There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife.

i don’t live in the US, and as a general rule try not to pay too much attention to it.  However, sufficiently intrigued by your earlier claims, i coincidentally looked at some such sites this afternoon.  In view of my previous statement, consider me astonished.  ;-) Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the marital rape exemption laws.

From the brief amount that i’ve read, it seems that in the 33 states which retain them, the exemption clauses do allow for marital rape under certain circumstances. What is wrong with your country? Anyway, come on now.  You know a lot more about this than you’re letting on.  What’s the twist? But if I recall correctly the post was dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since then.

The same thing occurred to me – the latest site i could find was dated ‘99 – and i’d be very interested to know if anything has changed since then. — Neil

Response:

Which states?  As far as I know all 50 states have laws against marital rape.  The caveat is that many of the states do allow an exemption under certain conditions like time frame in which the rape must be reported, fear of death, few other things, but I can’t remember them all.  You can actually get a listing of all the state law on this by contacting the national clearing house.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since then.

Response:

It all depends upon consent, doesn’t it? Consent can change, right? There was a case here in Australia where a man was charged and found guilty of rape when the woman he was with at the time changed her mind only moments before he climaxed. It was too late for him, in more ways than one. He was eventually freed when the woman (togther with her lesbian lover iirc) admitted it was a set up from the start. Given that lovemaking can turn from a pleasurable experience with a willing and caring partner, into a life sentence depending upon how the woman may choose to feel about it sometime into the future…well it’s a wonder that women get laid at all ; Big Surf

Response:

The rape topic is a little touchy where I’m concerned because I firmly beleive a lot of woemen throw this accusation around unjustifiably which in turn not only hurts and destroys the lives of many innocent men, but does nothing to help the numerous women who have legitamately gone through such a hellish ordeal.

False accusations do happen, but i’m told that the rates of false reporting for rape are similar to the rates of false reporting of any other crime.   In any case, it’s reasonable to assume that false accusations represent a very small minority of all accusations.  The emphasis of your post seems to give the opposite impression. I know personally of a woman who slept with a guy.

i know lots of women like that. Sorry, but sometimes they’re too good to miss.  ;-) After the fact she realized it was wrong, a mistake, and since she couldn’t take it back, she called it rape in some misguided effort to make herself feel better.  She had no idea of the impact this had on her partner at the time.  

Was the guy you?  If not, whose version of events did you get? Even assuming that this is true, one piece of anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the fact that these kinds of incidents represent the minority of all accusations.  That doesn’t mean that they’re trivial;  but likewise they shouldn’t be allowed to trivialise genuine claims of rape. Because the question that occurs to me is, what on earth does your perspective have to do with someone who quite explicitly proposes to rape his future wife, and my response that "sleep sex" without consent constitutes rape? — Neil

Response:

you must have a really small dick if sex does not awaken your wife… igor

Good reply to that particular poster!

Response:

* you must have a really small dick if sex does not awaken your wife… * * igor * * * Good reply to that particular poster! glad you likes my joke… Just like "SadGuy", I am sure that the OP has never seen and touched a real female vagina…

or a male one, either!!! (ok, ornery, i know, but you’re one of those logical people so i couldn’t resist)  :-)

Response:

The rape topic is a little touchy where I’m concerned because I firmly beleive a lot of woemen throw this accusation around unjustifiably which in turn not only hurts and destroys the lives of many innocent men, but does nothing to help the numerous women who have legitamately gone through such a hellish ordeal.  I know personally of a woman who slept with a guy.  After the fact she realized it was wrong, a mistake, and since she couldn’t take it back, she called it rape in some misguided effort to make herself feel better.  She had no idea of the impact this had on her partner at the time.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Neil wrote "Yes." Really. Some people would argue that there is a thing called "implied consent" in marriage.

Response:

There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since then.

Response:

*if* she does not consent to it beforehand?

Yes. I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly turns me on!

In answer to your earlier question, i doubt that rape in marriage is illegal in Iraq.  Why don’t you move there. followups set — Neil

Response:

Why do I get the feeling the responses are going to be quoted in a book or talk show.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think it’s rape and some don’t. I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly turns me on! And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here are some questions; When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed and continue to have his way with you? And to all; If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the same legal consequences as a stranger rapist or a date rapist? Thank you.

Response:

Well, from what I’ve heard, "rape" in a maritial situation is almost never granted any weight in a court of law….mainly because sex is "part of the bargain" with marriage. I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse.  I could be wrong, though. Matt

Response:

Well, from what I’ve heard, "rape" in a maritial situation is almost never granted any weight in a court of law….mainly because sex is "part of the bargain" with marriage. I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse.  I could be wrong, though.

If it’s forced and causes injury, though, couldn’t it be considered some type of "abuse" even if not rape?

Response:

"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger rape does. I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just reported more often).

Response:

When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for certain? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger rape does. I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just reported more often).

Response:

That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true in the case of a woman raping a man. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for certain? "I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger rape does. I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just reported more often).

Response:

Neil wrote "Yes." Really. Some people would argue that there is a thing called "implied consent" in marriage.

Response:

*if* she does not consent to it beforehand? I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think it’s rape and some don’t. I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly turns me on! And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here are some questions; When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed and continue to have his way with you? And to all; If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the same legal consequences as a stranger rapist or a date rapist? Thank you.

Response:

This is a no-brainer which is probably why you asked (or a troll). Ask her first. Period. Given you are not married yet I think it is safe to assume you can find a moment to find an ounce of respect for her prior to your planned event. If she says she would not like it, don’t do it. If she says it’s OK. Then it is OK. When you think of it…if you love your wife…why in the hell would you even consider doing anything she might not like? My sincere condolences to your future bride and to the other wives of any of the husbands out there that actually contemplated this question.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think it’s rape and some don’t. I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly turns me on! And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here are some questions; When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed and continue to have his way with you? And to all; If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the same legal consequences as a stranger rapist or a date rapist? Thank you.

Response:

This is a no-brainer which is probably why you asked (or a troll).

Both. — Neil

Response:

Sleep Sex In Marriage– Is It RAPE?

Question:

Ken, normally what you said would be the case but there is an halfway exception. Lorena Bobbit, she cut off his penis and left it on the road a few blocks away. oooooch There was no outwardly signs of any marital problems. Lorena never told anyone at the beauty parlor were she worked. The neighbors didn’t hear anything either. However, she stated in court that he always forced himself on her and then one day she went crazy. The courts didn’t know what to do. Now she’s back in Ecuador. If you remember the case, you know messy it was. The guy was lucky for micro surgery Of course, given his recent past of a few years,,,,,,, we all know she was telling the truth,,,,since, he’s been in court a few times for the same problem. While he wasn’t convicted,  we know he should of been.

Response:

yea, this brought back some painful memories. I am SO happy to have divorced him 8 years ago. During the trouble year before the divorce, there are multiple times I refused to have sex with him. Despite I kept pushing off and told him I did not want to, he insisted. No, I did not push hard enough, I guess. I would have to punch him. But I did not because I felt bad. He did it, and I was left miserable. I was SO upset afterwards, but did he care, NOP!  I divorced him and kept him away, never was in a place with him alone.  Up to this date, he still thinks he did not do anything wrong. Hell with him. The hatred stayed with me though.  I think I will have felt much better if I had done something like filing a charge against him back then.

Response:

"Pamela" <Pam…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:EIaS8.5775$XO2.2493@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… > That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, > sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are > married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being > property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true > in the case of a woman raping a man.

I don’t think that is the issue here.  In any criminal case the burden of proof is on the state to demonstrate guilt of the accused beyond a reasonable doubt. In a situation where a wife claims maritial rape and where the couple is not estranged and there is no corrobating evidence (injury consistent with spousal abuse, overheard screams, prior domestic violence complaints, etc.), there is really no way to prove anything. Rape kit evidence is useless when the occurance of sexual intercourse is not in dispute. Sex between a husband and wife will generally be considered consentual without evidence to the contrary.  This has nothing to do with any presumption of bodily ownership.  One person’s word against another is simply not enough.

Response:

Neil wrote "Yes." Really. Some people would argue that there is a thing called "implied consent" in marriage.

Response:

The rape topic is a little touchy where I’m concerned because I firmly beleive a lot of woemen throw this accusation around unjustifiably which in turn not only hurts and destroys the lives of many innocent men, but does nothing to help the numerous women who have legitamately gone through such a hellish ordeal.  I know personally of a woman who slept with a guy.  After the fact she realized it was wrong, a mistake, and since she couldn’t take it back, she called it rape in some misguided effort to make herself feel better.  She had no idea of the impact this had on her partner at the time.   On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 00:28:42 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Clodius Albinus) wrote: >Neil wrote >"Yes." >Really. Some people would argue that there is a thing called "implied >consent" in marriage.

Response:

jd…@yahoo.com  (Johnnie Kendricks) wrote: >My wife has my express permission to wake me up for sex at any time. >I love it when she takes me up on it, too!

Sounds like a healthy male to me. CJ

Response:

There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since then.

Response:

So anyway, Clodius Albinus [clodiusalbi...@webtv.net] wrote in message: news:1528-3D19E0E1-24@storefull-2398.public.lawson.webtv.net: > There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in > all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you > limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife.

i don’t live in the US, and as a general rule try not to pay too much attention to it.  However, sufficiently intrigued by your earlier claims, i coincidentally looked at some such sites this afternoon.  In view of my previous statement, consider me astonished.  ;-) > Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some > states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back > (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) > that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the > marital rape exemption laws.

From the brief amount that i’ve read, it seems that in the 33 states which retain them, the exemption clauses do allow for marital rape under certain circumstances. What is wrong with your country? Anyway, come on now.  You know a lot more about this than you’re letting on.  What’s the twist? > But if I recall correctly the post was > dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since > then.

The same thing occurred to me – the latest site i could find was dated ‘99 – and i’d be very interested to know if anything has changed since then. — Neil

Response:

So anyway, J. Brian Chamberlin [jbrianchamber...@yahoo.com] wrote in message: news:3d199092.20586181@news1.news.adelphia.net: > The rape topic is a little touchy where I’m concerned because I firmly > beleive a lot of woemen throw this accusation around unjustifiably > which in turn not only hurts and destroys the lives of many innocent > men, but does nothing to help the numerous women who have legitamately > gone through such a hellish ordeal.

False accusations do happen, but i’m told that the rates of false reporting for rape are similar to the rates of false reporting of any other crime.   In any case, it’s reasonable to assume that false accusations represent a very small minority of all accusations.  The emphasis of your post seems to give the opposite impression. > I know personally of a woman who slept with a guy.

i know lots of women like that. Sorry, but sometimes they’re too good to miss.  ;-) > After the fact she realized it was wrong, a > mistake, and since she couldn’t take it back, she called it rape in > some misguided effort to make herself feel better.  She had no idea of > the impact this had on her partner at the time.  

Was the guy you?  If not, whose version of events did you get? Even assuming that this is true, one piece of anecdotal evidence doesn’t change the fact that these kinds of incidents represent the minority of all accusations.  That doesn’t mean that they’re trivial;  but likewise they shouldn’t be allowed to trivialise genuine claims of rape. Because the question that occurs to me is, what on earth does your perspective have to do with someone who quite explicitly proposes to rape his future wife, and my response that "sleep sex" without consent constitutes rape? — Neil

Response:

It all depends upon consent, doesn’t it? Consent can change, right? There was a case here in Australia where a man was charged and found guilty of rape when the woman he was with at the time changed her mind only moments before he climaxed. It was too late for him, in more ways than one. He was eventually freed when the woman (togther with her lesbian lover iirc) admitted it was a set up from the start. Given that lovemaking can turn from a pleasurable experience with a willing and caring partner, into a life sentence depending upon how the woman may choose to feel about it sometime into the future…well it’s a wonder that women get laid at all ;> Big Surf

Response:

Which states?  As far as I know all 50 states have laws against marital rape.  The caveat is that many of the states do allow an exemption under certain conditions like time frame in which the rape must be reported, fear of death, few other things, but I can’t remember them all.  You can actually get a listing of all the state law on this by contacting the national clearing house. Clodius Albinus <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:1528-3D19E0E1-24@storefull-2398.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in > all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you > limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. > Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some > states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back > (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) > that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the > marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was > dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since > then.

Response:

"Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… > *if* she does not consent to it beforehand?

It is in my state. An offender commits the crime of sexual assault in the second degree if …  (3) the offender engages in sexual penetration with a person who the offender knows is  …  (B) incapacitated;  or  (C) unaware that a sexual act is being committed;

Response:

Sometimes I slept right through it – heh heh Sourdough <Sourdough at myrealbox dotcom> wrote in message news:uhmn3h9v3ofh82@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? > It is in my state. > An offender commits the crime of sexual assault in the second degree if > … >  (3) the offender engages in sexual penetration with a person who the > offender knows is >  … >  (B) incapacitated;  or >  (C) unaware that a sexual act is being committed;

Response:

On Wed, 26 Jun 2002 03:40:20 GMT, "Pamela" <Pam…@msn.com> wrote: >That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, >sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are >married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being >property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true >in the case of a woman raping a man.

He has a point. Proving a marital rape (or rape by an intimate, while not married) may be more difficult than proving a rape in which the alleged victim/perpetrator were not already sexually involved. Laurie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->J. Brian Chamberlin <jbrianchamber…@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:3d19334e.5896558@news1.news.adelphia.net… >> When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for >> certain? >> On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net >> (Clodius Albinus) wrote: >> >"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape >> >against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." >> >You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully >> >prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving >> >prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number >> >successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This >> >despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger >> >rape does. >> >I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the >> >convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives >> >when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged >> >wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just >> >reported more often).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Pamela" <Pam…@msn.com> wrote in message <news:9jCS8.1401$Ha3.148286@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… > Which states?  As far as I know all 50 states have laws against marital > rape.  The caveat is that many of the states do allow an exemption under > certain conditions like time frame in which the rape must be reported, fear > of death, few other things, but I can’t remember them all.  You can actually > get a listing of all the state law on this by contacting the national > clearing house. > Clodius Albinus <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:1528-3D19E0E1-24@storefull-2398.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > There are some websites which claim that marital rape is now a crime in > > all 50 states, but from what I understand, this is only true if you > > limit marital rape to an estranged husband raping his estranged wife. > > Marital rape in a ‘co-habitating’ situation appears to be legal in some > > states still. Indeed, I remember  reading a statement a while back > > (written by a person who seemed to be very knowledgable on the subject) > > that claimed that only seventeen states have ‘totally’ abolished the > > marital rape exemption laws. But if I recall correctly the post was > > dated in the late 90’s so it’s possible that things have changed since > > then.

Despite all laws, thinking morally, marital rape is still rape.  Just because a person is married does not mean they are obligated to have sex with their partner at any given time.  Intercourse is not a vow taken during marriage.  However, you are all current in stating that many states do have laws against it.  They sad thing is that the law tends to shy away from getting involved in domestic messes, which is what marital rape cases fall under.  There are many claims and accusations that float through the system that are false.  Sadly people file claims against spouses for many things just to "get back" at them for something.  Many courts have begun to assume that a lot of these types of claims are untrue and a waste of time.  That’s way you don’t see it successfully proven very often.

Response:

So anyway, Shawn [shawndiane_1...@yahoo.com] wrote in message: news:Y06S8.54232$uk2.22623354@twister.nyroc.rr.com: > This is a no-brainer which is probably why you asked (or a troll).

Both. — Neil

Response:

So anyway, Clodius Albinus [clodiusalbi...@webtv.net] wrote in message: news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net: > *if* she does not consent to it beforehand?

Yes. > I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex > wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband > having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject > interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which > I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and > body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly > turns me on!

In answer to your earlier question, i doubt that rape in marriage is illegal in Iraq.  Why don’t you move there. followups set — Neil

Response:

clodiusalbi…@webtv.net  (Clodius Albinus) wrote: >I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex >wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband >having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE.

It’s a gray zone. And certainly folks take great liberties to rationalize their disrespectful conduct when we’re talking about gray zone. I’ll perhaps say this: if someone takes of advantage of me for their own self-serving purposes when I’m not in a position to consent — like when I’m sleeping — I generally regard that as a violation of personal space. For some of us, we have enough sense of conscience, that as a guideline, we can generally determine right from wrong only by not treating others the way we wouldn’t want to be treated ourselves. And for those who don’t have so much of a conscience that they can use to help guide them, then they are better off to get consent from others before crossing the boundaries of their personal space. And to those who would say "Yeah, but we’re married," I would say that marriage is all that more of a reason to be respectful of personal boundaries, not a reason to treat another person as our own person property like they were more an object than a person. If my wife said, "Sure, anytime, anywhere, even if it wakes me up," that’s one thing. But beyond this, I wouldn’t necessarily want to distrub her sleep any more than I’d want my sleep distrubed. There are perhaps moments or days of exception. But in as much as marriage generally is in part about fostering a sense of safety and security for our spouse, part of that comes from respecting their own personal space. So if you’re going to go this route, keep in mind that you’re flirting with crossing a personal boundary, and so perhaps shouldn’t be at surprise if this kind of conduct comes back and bite you in the ass…. in a not altogether pleasent way. CJ

Response:

Why do I get the feeling the responses are going to be quoted in a book or talk show. "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? > I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think > it’s rape and some don’t. > I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex > wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband > having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject > interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which > I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and > body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly > turns me on! > And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here > are some questions; > When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he > was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? > Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? > If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed > and continue to have his way with you? > And to all; > If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on > par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? > Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the > same legal consequences as > a stranger rapist or a date rapist? > Thank you.

Response:

On 25 Jun 2002 23:00:51 GMT, cjmorga…@aol.com (CJMorgan59) wrote: >If my wife said, "Sure, anytime, anywhere, even if it wakes me up," that’s one >thing. But beyond this, I wouldn’t necessarily want to distrub her sleep any >more than I’d want my sleep distrubed.

My wife has my express permission to wake me up for sex at any time. I love it when she takes me up on it, too! Subversionmania

Response:

"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger rape does. I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just reported more often).

Response:

When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for certain? On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(Clodius Albinus) wrote: >"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape >against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." >You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully >prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving >prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number >successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This >despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger >rape does. >I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the >convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives >when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged >wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just >reported more often).

Response:

That question could apply to any charge of rape, married, unmarried, sleeping or awake. To presume it is not rape simply because two people are married, presumes that the woman is the property of the man, and being property she has no right to free choice. Of course, the same would be true in the case of a woman raping a man. J. Brian Chamberlin <jbrianchamber…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:3d19334e.5896558@news1.news.adelphia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> When it’s one word against another, how can the truth be leanred for > certain? > On Tue, 25 Jun 2002 23:09:52 -0400 (EDT), clodiusalbi…@webtv.net > (Clodius Albinus) wrote: > >"I’ve not seen anyone who is married successfully file charges of rape > >against a spouse. I could be wrong, though." > >You are wrong. There have been many cases where women have successfully > >prosecuted their husbands for spousal rape, with some husbands receiving > >prison sentences as high as 15 years, but compared to the number > >successful prosecutions for stranger rape, it is quite rare. This > >despite the fact that marital rape occurs much more often than stranger > >rape does. > >I remember reading an article a while back that claimed most of the > >convictions for spousal rape involved husbands who had raped their wives > >when they were separated. Apparently, a husband raping his estranged > >wife is taken much more seriously by the courts (or perhaps it’s just > >reported more often).

Response:

*if* she does not consent to it beforehand? I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think it’s rape and some don’t. I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly turns me on! And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here are some questions; When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed and continue to have his way with you? And to all; If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the same legal consequences as a stranger rapist or a date rapist? Thank you.

Response:

This is a no-brainer which is probably why you asked (or a troll). Ask her first. Period. Given you are not married yet I think it is safe to assume you can find a moment to find an ounce of respect for her prior to your planned event. If she says she would not like it, don’t do it. If she says it’s OK. Then it is OK. When you think of it…if you love your wife…why in the hell would you even consider doing anything she might not like? My sincere condolences to your future bride and to the other wives of any of the husbands out there that actually contemplated this question. "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:14619-3D18D56C-46@storefull-2395.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> *if* she does not consent to it beforehand? > I’ve heard alot of different views on this subject. Some people think > it’s rape and some don’t. > I was hoping I could get the opinions of the wives and husbands (or ex > wives/husbands) on this forum on whether or not you think that a husband > having sex with his wife while she lay asleep is RAPE. This subject > interests me for two main reasons. (1) this is one of the ways in which > I plan on "raping" my future wife (the other way is pinning her arms and > body to bed — the good ole fashion way) and (2) the subject frankly > turns me on! > And to the wives who are personally familiar with this situation, here > are some questions; > When you awoke to find your husband banging you, did you feel like he > was raping you or did you tell him, "FASTER!"? > Did you tell him to stop or did you let him finish? > If you told him to stop, did he stop or did he pin your body to the bed > and continue to have his way with you? > And to all; > If you think that a scenario like this is rape, do you consider it on > par with stranger rape with regards to heinousness? > Do you think a husband who does something like this should suffer the > same legal consequences as > a stranger rapist or a date rapist? > Thank you.

Response:

Marital Rape

Question:

Some folks went to great lengths to feed you, clothe you, educate you, and now you just take all that only to write this dribble. That has truly been a pathetic waste of other peoples time, not to mention your own. Find something more constructive to do, including not wasting our time. CJ ________________________________ clodiusalbi…@webtv.net  (Clodius Albinus) wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I have had rape fantasies since my early teens, and lately I’ve been >entertaining the idea of actually doing it for real. I don’t want to do >any thing illegal, so scenarios like date rape and stranger rape are >obviously out of the question. Marital rape, however, looks like the way >to go because there are some states left where spousal rape is still not >recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard). It would be greatly >appreciated if anyone here could tell me which states have no penalties >for raping your wife. I really need to know! >My plan is to find a woman who fits this criteria — brunette, blue or >grey eyes, natural white skin, very slim, low self esteem (she therefore >has the capability of loving me more than she loves herself), has >difficulties relating to sexual intercourse (she is therefore likely to >resist my "sexual advances" which will open the window for me to rape >her), has experienced rape several times throughout her life (she is >therefore not likely to be greatly "traumatized" by the act of rape as >she has become somewhat use to it) — have her fall deeply in love with >me, wed her in a state where rape is still legal, and then of course, >rape her repeatedly! >There are two ways in which I plan to rape her — the "sleep sex" way >(that is, fucking her while she’s asleep) and the good ol’e fashion >"holding her arms down" way. I’m not going to be very rough or anything >but I believe a few slaps in the face while I’m violating her will >definitely make the rapes feel much more satisfying. There will probably >be some bruising on her wrists (due to me restraining her), but nothing >too serious. So don’t worry for her (or yours) physical safety! >She won’t hate me afterwards — in fact, she’ll forgive me for what I >did, and when I rape her again, I will be forgiven again and again and >again, because her love for me will be so strong that she’ll be able to >overlook all my "flaws". This is one of the main reasons why I admire >women so much. They are so forgiving, far more so than men, especially >when they love you. Too bad this can also be a great weakness for them. >This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown >tired of raping women only in my fantasies – I want to do it for real >now. I want to experience what it feels like to sexually dominate a >woman, to hold her arms down while I violate her over and over, to hear >her cries and pleas for me to stop, to see her tears of violation roll >down into her ears. Many men fantasize about rape but only a select few >act upon these fantasies. Very soon I hope to become a member of that >select few. >If you’re a woman who fits my criteria and are willing to move with me >to a state where spousal rape is legal, then please email me. Perhaps we >can hook up and get married (wink, wink). Physical description of >myself; I’m a handsome eighteen year old male, with shoulder length, >medium brown hair, oval face, brown eyes, thick dark eyebrows, pale >skin, and 5′9 stature. You MUST me shorter than me and you can not >weight over 130 pounds, otherwise it might be difficult for me to >overpower you. Remember, this is not rape fantasy, I will literally rape >you, both in your sleep and while you’re awake whenever I feel like it! >In return, I will give you all the emotional "love" you can ask for. >After I rape you, I will cuddle up to you and tell you how much I love >you and so on!

Response:

>>Some folks went to great lengths to feed you, >>clothe you, educate you, and now you just take >>all that only to write this dribble. >>That has truly been a pathetic waste of other >>peoples time, not to mention your own. >>Find something more constructive to do, including >>not wasting our time. jd…@yahoo.com (Johnnie Kendricks) wrote: > How do you know this is all he does?

I don’t know all he does. But what I do know is that he spend time, energy, and the skills others have afforded him to write this dribble. And from where I sit, it seems a senseless waste of both his time(which is one issue in itself) and ours (which is a second issue). When I read stuff like this, it has me realizing that some folks seemingly have absolutely no sense of value for the precious resource which is limited to each of us: time — both his and ours. In about I week’s time, I’m scheduled to attend a retirement dinner for one of my old highschool teachers (who was also my basketball coach). And it’s had me thinking about the time and energy he invested to me and to others during our teen years. It was nothing less that a gift that I was given to experience such a person in my life time. And it’s well had me thinking about what I can best do to honor that gift. And in thinking about this it made me realize that the perhaps the best gift I can give back to this man is to be constructive with my own time, and to my level best of my ability not to at all waste the skills which have been afforded to me by all those who had a hand in raising me. I grant you, it’s something that I mostly do for myself and for very selfish reasons. But it is also the very best way I can think of doing honor to those who gave of themeselves to help me along the journey of who I’ve become today. And so I have in my mind an image of this old highschool teacher who was so generous and constructive with his time and energies. And then I read things like what the poster below has written, and all I can think is that this is such an example of wasted time and dribble. And all I can think is, "find something more constructive to do with you time." Or at the very least, don’t waste ours. But I don’t know all he does. What I do know is that he spend time, energy, and the skills others have afforded him to write this dribble. CJ _________________________ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >clodiusalbi…@webtv.net  (Clodius Albinus) wrote: > >>I have had rape fantasies since my early teens, and lately I’ve been > >>entertaining the idea of actually doing it for real. I don’t want to do > >>any thing illegal, so scenarios like date rape and stranger rape are > >>obviously out of the question. Marital rape, however, looks like the way > >>to go because there are some states left where spousal rape is still not > >>recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard). It would be greatly > >>appreciated if anyone here could tell me which states have no penalties > >>for raping your wife. I really need to know! > >>My plan is to find a woman who fits this criteria — brunette, blue or > >>grey eyes, natural white skin, very slim, low self esteem (she therefore > >>has the capability of loving me more than she loves herself), has > >>difficulties relating to sexual intercourse (she is therefore likely to > >>resist my "sexual advances" which will open the window for me to rape > >>her), has experienced rape several times throughout her life (she is > >>therefore not likely to be greatly "traumatized" by the act of rape as > >>she has become somewhat use to it) — have her fall deeply in love with > >>me, wed her in a state where rape is still legal, and then of course, > >>rape her repeatedly! > >>There are two ways in which I plan to rape her — the "sleep sex" way > >>(that is, fucking her while she’s asleep) and the good ol’e fashion > >>"holding her arms down" way. I’m not going to be very rough or anything > >>but I believe a few slaps in the face while I’m violating her will > >>definitely make the rapes feel much more satisfying. There will probably > >>be some bruising on her wrists (due to me restraining her), but nothing > >>too serious. So don’t worry for her (or yours) physical safety! > >>She won’t hate me afterwards — in fact, she’ll forgive me for what I > >>did, and when I rape her again, I will be forgiven again and again and > >>again, because her love for me will be so strong that she’ll be able to > >>overlook all my "flaws". This is one of the main reasons why I admire > >>women so much. They are so forgiving, far more so than men, especially > >>when they love you. Too bad this can also be a great weakness for them. > >>This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown > >>tired of raping women only in my fantasies – I want to do it for real > >>now. I want to experience what it feels like to sexually dominate a > >>woman, to hold her arms down while I violate her over and over, to hear > >>her cries and pleas for me to stop, to see her tears of violation roll > >>down into her ears. Many men fantasize about rape but only a select few > >>act upon these fantasies. Very soon I hope to become a member of that > >>select few. > >>If you’re a woman who fits my criteria and are willing to move with me > >>to a state where spousal rape is legal, then please email me. Perhaps we > >>can hook up and get married (wink, wink). Physical description of > >>myself; I’m a handsome eighteen year old male, with shoulder length, > >>medium brown hair, oval face, brown eyes, thick dark eyebrows, pale > >>skin, and 5′9 stature. You MUST me shorter than me and you can not > >>weight over 130 pounds, otherwise it might be difficult for me to > >>overpower you. Remember, this is not rape fantasy, I will literally rape > >>you, both in your sleep and while you’re awake whenever I feel like it! > >>In return, I will give you all the emotional "love" you can ask for. > >>After I rape you, I will cuddle up to you and tell you how much I love > >>you and so on!

Response:

Clodius Albinus opened all of our eyes with this: > I have had rape fantasies since my early teens, and lately I’ve been > entertaining the idea of actually doing it for real.

<snippo the sicko> And they say romance is dead! HA!

Response:

How about getting in with the S&M bondage crowd?  Or holding onto your fantasy but try acting out a more mature sexual relationship to see if you can get your needs met that way? The thing you are missing is that you have to be consensual in a grown-up relationship.  Any non-consensual sex you have is just going to put you in prison, pretty-boy, where you’ll get to find out what rape is like from the receiving end. Wendy, who weighs enough to squash you flat

Response:

"Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:1594-3CFEE755-100@storefull-2397.public.lawson.webtv.net… > there are some states left where spousal rape is still not > recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard).

You heard wrong.

Response:

"Sourdough" <Sourdough at myrealbox dotcom> wrote: > "Clodius Albinus" <clodiusalbi…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:1594-3CFEE755-100@storefull-2397.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > there are some states left where spousal rape is still not > > recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard). > You heard wrong.

I’m glad to hear it.  :-) Say, since most "women" who post their sexual fantasies are actually men, does that mean OP is actually a woman?

Response:

"Emma Anne" <m…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:1fdd2ah.55kb7he34hffN%mbjq@earthlink.net… > Say, since most "women" who post their sexual fantasies are actually > men, does that mean OP is actually a woman?

Could be, or could be something else. I usually try not to get close enough to a troll to determine its sex.

Response:

wmars…@mtholyoke.edu (Wendy Marsden) wrote in message <news:3cff58d9@donut.mtholyoke.edu>… > How about getting in with the S&M bondage crowd?  Or holding onto your > fantasy but try acting out a more mature sexual relationship to see if you > can get your needs met that way? > The thing you are missing is that you have to be consensual in a grown-up > relationship.  Any non-consensual sex you have is just going to put you in > prison, pretty-boy, where you’ll get to find out what rape is like from > the receiving end. > Wendy, who weighs enough to squash you flat

That’s tellin’ him, proper!

Response:

On 06 Jun 2002 06:54:14 GMT, cjmorga…@aol.com (CJMorgan59) wrote: >Some folks went to great lengths to feed you, clothe you, educate you, and now >you just take all that only to write this dribble. >That has truly been a pathetic waste of other peoples time, not to mention your >own. >Find something more constructive to do, including not wasting our time. >CJ

How do you know this is all he does? ________________ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->clodiusalbi…@webtv.net  (Clodius Albinus) wrote: >>I have had rape fantasies since my early teens, and lately I’ve been >>entertaining the idea of actually doing it for real. I don’t want to do >>any thing illegal, so scenarios like date rape and stranger rape are >>obviously out of the question. Marital rape, however, looks like the way >>to go because there are some states left where spousal rape is still not >>recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard). It would be greatly >>appreciated if anyone here could tell me which states have no penalties >>for raping your wife. I really need to know! >>My plan is to find a woman who fits this criteria — brunette, blue or >>grey eyes, natural white skin, very slim, low self esteem (she therefore >>has the capability of loving me more than she loves herself), has >>difficulties relating to sexual intercourse (she is therefore likely to >>resist my "sexual advances" which will open the window for me to rape >>her), has experienced rape several times throughout her life (she is >>therefore not likely to be greatly "traumatized" by the act of rape as >>she has become somewhat use to it) — have her fall deeply in love with >>me, wed her in a state where rape is still legal, and then of course, >>rape her repeatedly! >>There are two ways in which I plan to rape her — the "sleep sex" way >>(that is, fucking her while she’s asleep) and the good ol’e fashion >>"holding her arms down" way. I’m not going to be very rough or anything >>but I believe a few slaps in the face while I’m violating her will >>definitely make the rapes feel much more satisfying. There will probably >>be some bruising on her wrists (due to me restraining her), but nothing >>too serious. So don’t worry for her (or yours) physical safety! >>She won’t hate me afterwards — in fact, she’ll forgive me for what I >>did, and when I rape her again, I will be forgiven again and again and >>again, because her love for me will be so strong that she’ll be able to >>overlook all my "flaws". This is one of the main reasons why I admire >>women so much. They are so forgiving, far more so than men, especially >>when they love you. Too bad this can also be a great weakness for them. >>This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown >>tired of raping women only in my fantasies – I want to do it for real >>now. I want to experience what it feels like to sexually dominate a >>woman, to hold her arms down while I violate her over and over, to hear >>her cries and pleas for me to stop, to see her tears of violation roll >>down into her ears. Many men fantasize about rape but only a select few >>act upon these fantasies. Very soon I hope to become a member of that >>select few. >>If you’re a woman who fits my criteria and are willing to move with me >>to a state where spousal rape is legal, then please email me. Perhaps we >>can hook up and get married (wink, wink). Physical description of >>myself; I’m a handsome eighteen year old male, with shoulder length, >>medium brown hair, oval face, brown eyes, thick dark eyebrows, pale >>skin, and 5′9 stature. You MUST me shorter than me and you can not >>weight over 130 pounds, otherwise it might be difficult for me to >>overpower you. Remember, this is not rape fantasy, I will literally rape >>you, both in your sleep and while you’re awake whenever I feel like it! >>In return, I will give you all the emotional "love" you can ask for. >>After I rape you, I will cuddle up to you and tell you how much I love >>you and so on!

Response:

Kendricks, don’t you agree this original poster is another good example of why some people shouldn’t breed? On Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:53:27 GMT, jd…@yahoo.com (Johnnie Kendricks) wrote: >>>This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown

—– Dreamspinner3 Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ ICQ: 48547727

Response:

On Fri, 07 Jun 2002 03:09:00 GMT, Dreamspinner3 <dreamspinn…@hotpop.com> wrote: >Kendricks, don’t you agree this original poster is another good >example of why some people shouldn’t breed?

Unless/until human population is reduced to more reasonable levels, every human being on the planet is a good example of why people shouldn’t breed. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->On Fri, 07 Jun 2002 01:53:27 GMT, jd…@yahoo.com (Johnnie Kendricks) >wrote: >>>>This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown >—– >Dreamspinner3 >Homepage: http://members.tripod.com/dreamspinner3/ >ICQ: 48547727

Response:

"Sourdough" <Sourdough at myrealbox dotcom> wrote: > "Emma Anne" <m…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:1fdd2ah.55kb7he34hffN%mbjq@earthlink.net… > > Say, since most "women" who post their sexual fantasies are actually > > men, does that mean OP is actually a woman? > Could be, or could be something else. I usually try not to get close enough > to a troll to determine its sex.

Yeah, cause they tend to be pretty ugly.  :-)

Response:

I think this guy is the male equivalent of Handjob Cathy. Both are pathetic and sad and dangerous and should be taken out of the gene pool immediately, if not sooner. Ainsley "CJMorgan59" <cjmorga…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20020606025414.28016.00000361@mb-ct.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Some folks went to great lengths to feed you, clothe you, educate you, and now > you just take all that only to write this dribble. > That has truly been a pathetic waste of other peoples time, not to mention your > own. > Find something more constructive to do, including not wasting our time. > CJ > ________________________________ > clodiusalbi…@webtv.net  (Clodius Albinus) wrote: > >I have had rape fantasies since my early teens, and lately I’ve been > >entertaining the idea of actually doing it for real. I don’t want to do > >any thing illegal, so scenarios like date rape and stranger rape are > >obviously out of the question. Marital rape, however, looks like the way > >to go because there are some states left where spousal rape is still not > >recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard). It would be greatly > >appreciated if anyone here could tell me which states have no penalties > >for raping your wife. I really need to know! > >My plan is to find a woman who fits this criteria — brunette, blue or > >grey eyes, natural white skin, very slim, low self esteem (she therefore > >has the capability of loving me more than she loves herself), has > >difficulties relating to sexual intercourse (she is therefore likely to > >resist my "sexual advances" which will open the window for me to rape > >her), has experienced rape several times throughout her life (she is > >therefore not likely to be greatly "traumatized" by the act of rape as > >she has become somewhat use to it) — have her fall deeply in love with > >me, wed her in a state where rape is still legal, and then of course, > >rape her repeatedly! > >There are two ways in which I plan to rape her — the "sleep sex" way > >(that is, fucking her while she’s asleep) and the good ol’e fashion > >"holding her arms down" way. I’m not going to be very rough or anything > >but I believe a few slaps in the face while I’m violating her will > >definitely make the rapes feel much more satisfying. There will probably > >be some bruising on her wrists (due to me restraining her), but nothing > >too serious. So don’t worry for her (or yours) physical safety! > >She won’t hate me afterwards — in fact, she’ll forgive me for what I > >did, and when I rape her again, I will be forgiven again and again and > >again, because her love for me will be so strong that she’ll be able to > >overlook all my "flaws". This is one of the main reasons why I admire > >women so much. They are so forgiving, far more so than men, especially > >when they love you. Too bad this can also be a great weakness for them. > >This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown > >tired of raping women only in my fantasies – I want to do it for real > >now. I want to experience what it feels like to sexually dominate a > >woman, to hold her arms down while I violate her over and over, to hear > >her cries and pleas for me to stop, to see her tears of violation roll > >down into her ears. Many men fantasize about rape but only a select few > >act upon these fantasies. Very soon I hope to become a member of that > >select few. > >If you’re a woman who fits my criteria and are willing to move with me > >to a state where spousal rape is legal, then please email me. Perhaps we > >can hook up and get married (wink, wink). Physical description of > >myself; I’m a handsome eighteen year old male, with shoulder length, > >medium brown hair, oval face, brown eyes, thick dark eyebrows, pale > >skin, and 5′9 stature. You MUST me shorter than me and you can not > >weight over 130 pounds, otherwise it might be difficult for me to > >overpower you. Remember, this is not rape fantasy, I will literally rape > >you, both in your sleep and while you’re awake whenever I feel like it! > >In return, I will give you all the emotional "love" you can ask for. > >After I rape you, I will cuddle up to you and tell you how much I love > >you and so on!

Response:

I have had rape fantasies since my early teens, and lately I’ve been entertaining the idea of actually doing it for real. I don’t want to do any thing illegal, so scenarios like date rape and stranger rape are obviously out of the question. Marital rape, however, looks like the way to go because there are some states left where spousal rape is still not recognized as a criminal offence (or so I heard). It would be greatly appreciated if anyone here could tell me which states have no penalties for raping your wife. I really need to know! My plan is to find a woman who fits this criteria — brunette, blue or grey eyes, natural white skin, very slim, low self esteem (she therefore has the capability of loving me more than she loves herself), has difficulties relating to sexual intercourse (she is therefore likely to resist my "sexual advances" which will open the window for me to rape her), has experienced rape several times throughout her life (she is therefore not likely to be greatly "traumatized" by the act of rape as she has become somewhat use to it) — have her fall deeply in love with me, wed her in a state where rape is still legal, and then of course, rape her repeatedly! There are two ways in which I plan to rape her — the "sleep sex" way (that is, fucking her while she’s asleep) and the good ol’e fashion "holding her arms down" way. I’m not going to be very rough or anything but I believe a few slaps in the face while I’m violating her will definitely make the rapes feel much more satisfying. There will probably be some bruising on her wrists (due to me restraining her), but nothing too serious. So don’t worry for her (or yours) physical safety! She won’t hate me afterwards — in fact, she’ll forgive me for what I did, and when I rape her again, I will be forgiven again and again and again, because her love for me will be so strong that she’ll be able to overlook all my "flaws". This is one of the main reasons why I admire women so much. They are so forgiving, far more so than men, especially when they love you. Too bad this can also be a great weakness for them. This is not just some "sick" fantasy of mine. Over the years I’ve grown tired of raping women only in my fantasies – I want to do it for real now. I want to experience what it feels like to sexually dominate a woman, to hold her arms down while I violate her over and over, to hear her cries and pleas for me to stop, to see her tears of violation roll down into her ears. Many men fantasize about rape but only a select few act upon these fantasies. Very soon I hope to become a member of that select few. If you’re a woman who fits my criteria and are willing to move with me to a state where spousal rape is legal, then please email me. Perhaps we can hook up and get married (wink, wink). Physical description of myself; I’m a handsome eighteen year old male, with shoulder length, medium brown hair, oval face, brown eyes, thick dark eyebrows, pale skin, and 5′9 stature. You MUST me shorter than me and you can not weight over 130 pounds, otherwise it might be difficult for me to overpower you. Remember, this is not rape fantasy, I will literally rape you, both in your sleep and while you’re awake whenever I feel like it! In return, I will give you all the emotional "love" you can ask for. After I rape you, I will cuddle up to you and tell you how much I love you and so on!

Response:

HELP! I had bad Risperdal/Remeron reaction

Question:

I was hit by severe depression and my psychiatrist put me on 15 mg Remeron and 1/2 mg of Risperdal a day. The Risperdal did nothing for me at all, in fact it began soon to mask over the anti depressant effects of the Remeron. Remeron made me feel normal again. Greatly improved sleep, sex drive, appetite, mood, confidence , etc. I was put on the Risperdal because my psychiatrist mistakenly perceived me to be potentially aggressive or hostile. When I tried to increase my Remeron from 15 mg to 30 mg, something really bad occured. I experienced "spasms" or sharp, bursting rupture type pains on both sides of my top, rear head. Just under the scalp, where the serotonnin reuptake process occurs. After these spasms occured, the Remeron basically quit working. Also, after these spasms occured, these injured areas beneath my scalp would feel mushy or soggy as if their was some inflammation or effusion or mild swelling going on there. Very weird, uncomfortable feeling. My psychiatrist blamed it all on the Remeron, became upset about it. I think the Risperdal had as much to do with it if not more than the Remeron. The Risperdal tries to slow down dopamine/serotonnin while the Remeron tries to increase serotonnin/norephineprine. I believe when I tried to increase the REmeron, the two drugs conflicted and something popped. Some kind of soft tissue was injured. Since these spasms occured, no antidepressants work for me at all. I do feel the AD effect somewhat(a little) if I take Non steroidal anti inflammatorry drugs(Daypro) daily.This seems to decrease the uncomfortable swelling or soggy feelings right underneath my scalp. I am desperate and have since switched psychiatrists and have long been off Risperdal. My present doctor has mentioned ECT…I am scared. My family doctor suggested I injured some small scalpal muscles…he says its no "big deal."     Does anybody out there have any idea what happened? Why the ADs quit working after these spasms occured? What can I do to fix it?(if anything) I realize some people may read this and not believe it but its the honest truth. My situation is not in the books anywhere I believe. Has anybody else out there heard of a similar situation? I know the Risperdal had a lot to do with it…have no doubt in my mind. Please post a message here or Email me directly at ERidd5…@aol.com if you have any ideas or suggestions. I dont need "cheer up" messages, I need real help. disgusted, frustrated and scared in NC Eric Riddick

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -nospam@ncnospam wrote: > I was hit by severe depression and my psychiatrist put me on 15 mg Remeron > and 1/2 mg of Risperdal a day. The Risperdal did nothing for me at all, in > fact it began soon to mask over the anti depressant effects of the Remeron. > Remeron made me feel normal again. Greatly improved sleep, sex drive, > appetite, mood, confidence , etc. I was put on the Risperdal because my > psychiatrist mistakenly perceived me to be potentially aggressive or hostile. > When I tried to increase my Remeron from 15 mg to 30 mg, something really bad > occured. I experienced "spasms" or sharp, bursting rupture type pains on both > sides of my top, rear head. Just under the scalp, where the serotonnin > reuptake process occurs. After these spasms occured, the Remeron basically > quit working. Also, after these spasms occured, these injured areas beneath > my scalp would feel mushy or soggy as if their was some inflammation or > effusion or mild swelling going on there. Very weird, uncomfortable feeling. > My psychiatrist blamed it all on the Remeron, became upset about it. I think > the Risperdal had as much to do with it if not more than the Remeron. The > Risperdal tries to slow down dopamine/serotonnin while the Remeron tries to > increase serotonnin/norephineprine. I believe when I tried to increase the > REmeron, the two drugs conflicted and something popped. Some kind of soft > tissue was injured. Since these spasms occured, no antidepressants work for > me at all. I do feel the AD effect somewhat(a little) if I take Non steroidal > anti inflammatorry drugs(Daypro) daily.This seems to decrease the > uncomfortable swelling or soggy feelings right underneath my scalp. I am > desperate and have since switched psychiatrists and have long been off > Risperdal. My present doctor has mentioned ECT…I am scared. My family > doctor suggested I injured some small scalpal muscles…he says its no "big > deal."  Does anybody out there have any idea what happened? Why the ADs quit > working after these spasms occured? What can I do to fix it?(if anything) I > realize some people may read this and not believe it but its the honest > truth. My situation is not in the books anywhere I believe. Has anybody else > out there heard of a similar situation? I know the Risperdal had a lot to do > with it…have no doubt in my mind. Please post a message here or Email me > directly at ERidd5…@aol.com if you have any ideas or suggestions. I dont > need "cheer up" messages, I need real help. > disgusted, frustrated and scared in NC > Eric Riddick

Sorry Eric, I just saw your message; i had something like what you describe upon withdrawal – i really cannot say it is the same cause because the drugs are different; however, I found that benzodiazepines helped immensely – can you ask your doc about that?   Also take this question to Dr. Bob’s? http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/babble.html good luck Squiggles — … And so, without illusions and without hope, I shall carry on until the day I disappear into the  shadows I came out of one day, an ephemeral and vain creature.                                    - Isabelle Eberhardt

Response:

SqUiGgLeS <squig…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:3D07904D.37235042@sympatico.ca>…

… > I believe you.  I would like to know which drugs you are talking > about; because you know sometimes it is not the drugs or treatment > per se, but the synchrony, interactions, other conditions, and > DOSE (Paracelsus knew this thousands of years ago).  I will attest > to the damage done by drugs, personally – I know this.  Ignorance > is always a factor in pharmacology especially psychopharmacology and > especially when they are in a rush to get the new model out.

IMHO, patients should be allowed to make their own decisions regarding whether they will take any drug — from birth control pills, to antibiotics and antipsychotics.  If a patient is forced to take drugs involuntarily, the doctor making such demands should become liable for any and all effects of the drugs, desirable and undesirable.  If an antidepressant has "suicidal tendencies" as a side effect, and a psy-doc forces a patient to take it, and the patient then commits suicide, I think the psy-doc should be held responsible.  If a mood stabilizer has "liver damage" as a possible side effect, and a psy-doc forces a patient to take it, the patient should be able to sue the psy-doc for any and all injury: if the patient has liver failure, the patient should be able to demand that the psy-doc’s liver be removed. Psy-docs should NOT go un-punished for the harm they cause many of their patients.  In some cases they should justifiably be put to death (such as when a patient develops tardive dyskinesia from involuntary drug use).  Living a life with tardive dyskinesia is a fate worse than death, IMHO.  Such people are generally social outcasts after acquiring tardive dyskinesia.  And only because a psy-doc mandated the use of certain antipsychotics that have a strong likelihood of causing tardive dyskinesia! At the moment psy-docs can just have patients with tardive dyskinesia locked in state hospitals where no one can witness how they have harmed the patients.  I consider this a crime against humanity, no different, really, from Hitler and Nazis at places like Auschwitz during WWII.  Just that Hitler and Nazis have been replaced by psy-docs, and Jews have been replaced by those considered to be mentally ill. IMHO we need to find a way to treat the mentally ill with kindness and understanding (and drugs, if they so desire, and if the drugs truly help their condition).

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Garfunkel wrote: > SqUiGgLeS <squig…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:3D0649CE.C285EB78@sympatico.ca>… > > Perhaps you are not aware of how awful certain medical > > conditions can be – awful enough that even though the drugs > > are not perfect, they are far superiour to something that > > has passed a vitamin test.  Vitamins, unless given in very > > high toxic dosages, furthermore, are not as likely to be > > as effective and dangerous as some less than perfect drugs. > > Squiggles > That is why patients should be allowed to sign a waiver that indicates > they absolve the doctor of all responsibility regarding side effects. > I’ve seen too many instances in the mental health system where the > patient is prescribed medicines without being warned of possible side > effects, and/or where the patient has not been permitted to refuse > medications with potentially devastating side effects.  I have > witnessed a number of patients who have had their minds destroyed — > they were once normally functioning human beings, but after all the > "let’s try this drug" experimentation by psychiatrists, their > cognitive ability was destroyed, and their movements were punctuated > by Parkinsonism tremors (in addition to the bizarre movements that > accompany a side-effect such as tardive dyskinesia).  The most > seriously ill people I have seen in mental hospitals are as they are > NOT from their initial illness, but from wayward attempts by doctors > to prescribe harmful drugs to "FIX" them. > We need to stop harming the mentally ill and the ignorant members of > our society who may not have the knowledge or opportunity to refuse > many of the harmful drugs and treatments (such as ECT) that psy-docs > suggest or demand for them.  There is little effort, based on my > observations and experience, to inform psychiatric patients of the > potential harm of the medication regimens suggested for them. > We need to fix this problem.  Maybe requiring "informed consent" for > all psychiatric drugs will help — as long as the information form > that must be signed lists all possible side effects, and as long as > "lack of consent" is an acceptable response from the patient.  And if > the patient encounters a problem not listed on the form, he/she should > be able to demand suitable reparation from the psy-doc, including the > death penalty, when appropriate (such as any permanent harm to the > patient, like tardive dyskinesia or impotence).  As long as doctors > have nothing to lose, they will continue to prescribe drugs as if they > are incapable of harming the patients!  So we must devise schemes that > give them "something to lose"!  Without such schemes, there is no > driving force to get them to change their behaviour that they have > been practicing since the advent of psychiatric pharmaceuticals > approx. 50 years ago!

I believe you.  I would like to know which drugs you are talking about; because you know sometimes it is not the drugs or treatment per se, but the synchrony, interactions, other conditions, and DOSE (Paracelsus knew this thousands of years ago).  I will attest to the damage done by drugs, personally – I know this.  Ignorance is always a factor in pharmacology especially psychopharmacology and especially when they are in a rush to get the new model out. As for signing an affidavit or permission slip – I don’t think that helps, except for suing if they screw up.  Also consider the consequences of this – no doctor will be willing to treat anyone and lack of treatment can be as bad as bad treatment. Squiggles — Reality must take precedence over public relations; for nature cannot be fooled.                               — Richard P. Feynman

Response:

SqUiGgLeS <squig…@sympatico.ca> wrote in message <news:3D0649CE.C285EB78@sympatico.ca>… > Perhaps you are not aware of how awful certain medical > conditions can be – awful enough that even though the drugs > are not perfect, they are far superiour to something that > has passed a vitamin test.  Vitamins, unless given in very > high toxic dosages, furthermore, are not as likely to be > as effective and dangerous as some less than perfect drugs. > Squiggles

That is why patients should be allowed to sign a waiver that indicates they absolve the doctor of all responsibility regarding side effects. I’ve seen too many instances in the mental health system where the patient is prescribed medicines without being warned of possible side effects, and/or where the patient has not been permitted to refuse medications with potentially devastating side effects.  I have witnessed a number of patients who have had their minds destroyed — they were once normally functioning human beings, but after all the "let’s try this drug" experimentation by psychiatrists, their cognitive ability was destroyed, and their movements were punctuated by Parkinsonism tremors (in addition to the bizarre movements that accompany a side-effect such as tardive dyskinesia).  The most seriously ill people I have seen in mental hospitals are as they are NOT from their initial illness, but from wayward attempts by doctors to prescribe harmful drugs to "FIX" them. We need to stop harming the mentally ill and the ignorant members of our society who may not have the knowledge or opportunity to refuse many of the harmful drugs and treatments (such as ECT) that psy-docs suggest or demand for them.  There is little effort, based on my observations and experience, to inform psychiatric patients of the potential harm of the medication regimens suggested for them. We need to fix this problem.  Maybe requiring "informed consent" for all psychiatric drugs will help — as long as the information form that must be signed lists all possible side effects, and as long as "lack of consent" is an acceptable response from the patient.  And if the patient encounters a problem not listed on the form, he/she should be able to demand suitable reparation from the psy-doc, including the death penalty, when appropriate (such as any permanent harm to the patient, like tardive dyskinesia or impotence).  As long as doctors have nothing to lose, they will continue to prescribe drugs as if they are incapable of harming the patients!  So we must devise schemes that give them "something to lose"!  Without such schemes, there is no driving force to get them to change their behaviour that they have been practicing since the advent of psychiatric pharmaceuticals approx. 50 years ago!

Response:

Garfunkel wrote: > I have taken multivitamins for decades, at "normal" dosages (not like > Linus Pauling’s Vitamin-C kick) and have suffered no undesirable > reactions. > Pharmaceutical companies should be required to develop drugs with > similar track records to multivitamins.  Until they have attained that > goal, all their products should be considered "experimental" and given > freely to anyone willing to take them!

Perhaps you are not aware of how awful certain medical conditions can be – awful enough that even though the drugs are not perfect, they are far superiour to something that has passed a vitamin test.  Vitamins, unless given in very high toxic dosages, furthermore, are not as likely to be as effective and dangerous as some less than perfect drugs. Squiggles — Reality must take precedence over public relations; for nature cannot be fooled.                               — Richard P. Feynman

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Garfunkel wrote: > I think we could put a stop to such undesirable "bad reactions" if we > permitted public execution of doctors who prescribe drugs that cause > "bad" or even "undesirable" reactions (such as impotence). > I recently read in the paper that Vietnam permits public execution > when adults sexually rape minors under the age of 13. > Is the "rape" of our brains any less significant than the defilement > of our sexual organs?  I hardly think so! > So let’s execute all psychiatrists who prescribe drugs that cause > "bad" or "undesirable" reactions in one or more of their patients.  I > think this will solve the problem rather quickly, and ensure that the > solution can endure for a long time. > (Back in the days of the "Code of Hammurabi" there were rather severe > penalties for physicians who harmed patients.  None of this rather > weak "malpractice insurance" financial penalty nonsense.  Stuff like > "remove the hand of a surgeon that causes a patient to feel less well > after an operation than before."  Surgeons don’t make many mistakes > under such circumstances [hard to tie sutures with only one hand, and > hard to make incisions and tie sutures when both hands have been > amputated].) > Somehow we must get psychiatrists back on the track of avoiding harm > to their patients.  If the patients insist on drugs, then the doctor > should get the patient to sign a release that absolves the doctor of > responsibility for any harm caused by the drug.  But ONLY under such > circumstances should psychiatric drugs ever enter the body of any > patient! > Let’s get this problem under control, once and for all!

_________ You talk a lot, but say little. Squiggles — … And so, without illusions and without hope, I shall carry on until the day I disappear into the  shadows I came out of one day, an ephemeral and vain creature.                                    - Isabelle Eberhardt

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In article <8b5a5198.0206100813.3efa…@posting.google.com>, gentleman1…@yahoo.com (Garfunkel) wrote: >I think we could put a stop to such undesirable "bad reactions" if we >permitted public execution of doctors who prescribe drugs that cause >"bad" or even "undesirable" reactions (such as impotence).

   There goes all the doc. ALL medications have some undesirable side effects. Taking that its (ill)logical conclusion, you should probably be offed if you give someone an aspirin that causes them to have a tummy ache. ——————————————————– "Writers even write the silences"        -J. Michael Straczynski

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kurtull…@yahoo.com (Kurt Ullman) wrote in message <news:Sc6N8.7226$Pv2.529@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net>… > In article <8b5a5198.0206100813.3efa…@posting.google.com>, > gentleman1…@yahoo.com (Garfunkel) wrote: > >I think we could put a stop to such undesirable "bad reactions" if we > >permitted public execution of doctors who prescribe drugs that cause > >"bad" or even "undesirable" reactions (such as impotence). >    There goes all the doc. ALL medications have some undesirable > side effects. Taking that its (ill)logical conclusion, you should probably > be offed if you give someone an aspirin that causes them to have a tummy ache.

I have taken multivitamins for decades, at "normal" dosages (not like Linus Pauling’s Vitamin-C kick) and have suffered no undesirable reactions. Pharmaceutical companies should be required to develop drugs with similar track records to multivitamins.  Until they have attained that goal, all their products should be considered "experimental" and given freely to anyone willing to take them!

Response:

I think we could put a stop to such undesirable "bad reactions" if we permitted public execution of doctors who prescribe drugs that cause "bad" or even "undesirable" reactions (such as impotence). I recently read in the paper that Vietnam permits public execution when adults sexually rape minors under the age of 13. Is the "rape" of our brains any less significant than the defilement of our sexual organs?  I hardly think so! So let’s execute all psychiatrists who prescribe drugs that cause "bad" or "undesirable" reactions in one or more of their patients.  I think this will solve the problem rather quickly, and ensure that the solution can endure for a long time. (Back in the days of the "Code of Hammurabi" there were rather severe penalties for physicians who harmed patients.  None of this rather weak "malpractice insurance" financial penalty nonsense.  Stuff like "remove the hand of a surgeon that causes a patient to feel less well after an operation than before."  Surgeons don’t make many mistakes under such circumstances [hard to tie sutures with only one hand, and hard to make incisions and tie sutures when both hands have been amputated].) Somehow we must get psychiatrists back on the track of avoiding harm to their patients.  If the patients insist on drugs, then the doctor should get the patient to sign a release that absolves the doctor of responsibility for any harm caused by the drug.  But ONLY under such circumstances should psychiatric drugs ever enter the body of any patient! Let’s get this problem under control, once and for all!

Response:

Cheaters' chances of staying married

Question:

But, was she Ms. Wrong when you married her? If not…if you didn’t realize it until later…then how do you know that the current Ms. Right won’t turn into Ms. Wrong down the line? Just curious. Karin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interesting observation, but as is the case with many people in thie NG, a very narrow viewpoint.  Just like asking people if they would eat rats and bugs to "survive: (I did not watch the show, although I did hear about the rodentmania) – most would say "no I would rather die" but in fact, when the chips are down you would probably rather NOT die. So here we have the ihabitants of ASD, the majority of which are self-righteous, judgemental, oversensitive, counseled, self-helped, 12-stepped, empowered (women only), whipped (men only), and (if you ask them) all-knowing experts in the field of human relations.   If a person is unhappy, they assume that there are roads unexplored, if they cheat, they are the bad guy.  In fact, it is perfectly natural to wonder whether there is anything better in life than living with a mate who ignores your desire of romance and intimacy, belittles your desire for touch and sex, may be physicially or verbally abusive, and might use alcohol or illegal substances.  And you have children, and debts, and obligations, and if the grass is really not greener, well why upset the apple cart, right? So you look around, you talk to people, you maybe even meet, and the most amazing thing happens – there are actually people who you enjoy things with.  I think most prudent people would find a place to live before they move, find a new car to replace the old, and if they are undecided, well they may take a test drive.  If the old house or the old car suited them, I would not think that they would be "shopping" – I for one certainly would not have been, and in my new life I do not. Am I happy – YOU BET – would I do it again  - ABSOLUTELY. In my opinion the "till death do you part" is just good legal advice, since divorce is sostressful and messy – of course it is best if YOU are not the dead one. And to those who say "money can’t buy happiness", I would say that the exception is getting divorced from Ms Wrong. The thing I always find in these situations is neither party had any respect for the current marriage, the current commitment, or the current marriage vows.  Also, it is obvious they condone adultery under certain circumstances.  So what makes them think that these same people will behave better in their next marriage?  Personally, I don’t think adultery is a characteristic of a good prospective mate. If you think about it logically it’s a really dumb move.  How many people if offered would chose going out on a blind date with a married person?  Can’t you see a "friend" coming to you (generalized you, not you personally) and saying, "I know this person who would like to get to know you.  They are a lot of fun and a great wo/man.  S/he’s married and has two children, but might consider leaving their family if the right person came along.  How many people in their right mind would actually go out on this "date"?

– "Circumstances do not make a person, they reveal him or her." –Richard Carlson

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Janie, I think you really have an excellent point.  People NEED to feel they are loved, wanted and needed.  It’s not something that is just nice to have, but it’s a need within everyone (at least that I have ever met).  Maybe it all boils down to a need to feel like we matter to someone.

Amen

Response:

A while ago someone asked if anyone knew what the chances of a marriage lasting that started out with the someone cheating on their spouse, divorcing, and then marrying the other wo/man.  Today on Oprah a man said those marriages only had a ***5%*** chance to make it!  Sure doesn’t seem worth throwing away a family for and hurting so many people.  Of course, I’m sure that most people figure THEY will be the ones to make it.

Well they should talk about taking a relationship for granted.  That happens in a lot of these situ’s because the spouse is thinking…they damn well better not go out and have an affair, or, I don’t have time for sex like he/she does, I have too many more important issues to deal with right now, anyway they are just sex maniacs, and it’s just disgusting the way they carry on. Or it could be you’re driving them away by making them feel their accomplishments are just a waste of time, or you see them in a critical light, and they’d rather masturbate than to have sex with someone they think feels that way about them. Bendere Dundat. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Before you buy.

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – So let’s check the scoreboard: I scored direct hits with "self-righteous, judgemental, oversensitive, (and) counseled", but probably should have also included "overanalyzed, politically correct, and totally lacking in a sense of humor" in describing ASD inhabitants. Splitting sentences and paragraphs and launching into expositions between the paragraphs posing questions and answering the same in a manner meant to be unfavorable to another with a differening viewpoint is an oddly familiar pattern which I recognize from my distant past.  Luckily I am "divorced’ from that now.

What about YOUR scoreboard? I am sure you said to yoru spouse Gee honey I am unhappy, I am going to cheat on you. Here are the characteristics of a cheater 1.  Liar 2.  Devoid of character 3.  Homewrecker 4.  Coward 5.  Untrustworthy 6.  Narcissistic I think I would rather be called any of your nemes like self righteous and judgemental than what you actually are. Loev, Grandma Poopie Pants

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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The thing I always find in these situations is neither party had any respect for the current marriage, the current commitment, or the current marriage vows.  Also, it is obvious they condone adultery under certain circumstances.  So what makes them think that these same people will behave better in their next marriage?  Personally, I don’t think adultery is a characteristic of a good prospective mate. If you think about it logically it’s a really dumb move.  How many people if offered would chose going out on a blind date with a married person?  Can’t you see a "friend" coming to you (generalized you, not you personally) and saying, "I know this person who would like to get to know you.  They are a lot of fun and a great wo/man.  S/he’s married and has two children, but might consider leaving their family if the right person came along.  How many people in their right mind would actually go out on this "date"?

Victoria, You would be surprised on how many women would date a marreid man. Just 6 months ago or so I was on a bbs where this woman who had just gotten out of a bad relationship, was planning to go out with a married man she met through the personals. She said that married men can be nice.  You know how blunt I can be and I just said this, "  HA HA HA HA HA a married man sniffing through the personals looking for some new tail is a nice Mr. Right!!  I said you have got to be kidding!"  Anyway several others jumped ON ME and said chheating was a personal choice and I should mind my own business!   Unbelievable! I went on to say things about cheaters having lack of character and are liars who can’t be trusted, etc…  So these women thought there was nothing wrong in being a homewrecker.  Then I got banned from the bbs.  Oh Well!  :-) So yes there are plenty of people who think nothing of dating a married person. Loev, Grandma Poopie Pants

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- Today on Oprah a man | said those marriages only had a ***5%*** chance to make it! WOW!   That’s amazing. Although I’m not terribly surprised, I didn’t realize the percentage was so low.  Makes me feel somewhat better that I’m waiting to even date for a while….. meanwhile stbx is living with the woman he left me for. Sure | doesn’t seem worth throwing away a family for and hurting so many | people.  Of course, I’m sure that most people figure THEY will be the | ones to make it. Yep.  Self-deception is a powerful thing. ~*~*~ Vicki ~*~*~ Caitlin Grace is going to be induced on FRIDAY!!

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I was young and she was Ms "I guess she is OK and we get along well and why not?", but after a while it was Ms "Why do you think I should be intimate, you know I was not like that when we got married", and so it went, the past never being absent from our present, overshadowing the future, and every "mistake" I made – never forgotten (although I suspect that some events did not happen but who can remeber stuff from 15 years ago anyway).   In time I realized I wanted something more, and I do not think that changing one person into another is possible.  Also, celibacy did not appeal to me, nor did years and dollars of "therapy". I wish her well and hope that someday she finds some guy who is happy with her the way she is, and she is happy with him the way he is.   And that should be that.  The hurt comes when we are together, not apart.  Keeping a "marriage together" for the sake of a 50th anniversary in spite of it not meeting either party’s needs is senseless.  Arguing about the past is silly.  Living your life and enjoying is what should be done. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But, was she Ms. Wrong when you married her? If not…if you didn’t realize it until later…then how do you know that the current Ms. Right won’t turn into Ms. Wrong down the line? Just curious. Karin

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Is it that simple?  Is that what makes people say, "I love you but am no longer in love with you,"?

That was probably the worst thing my stbx said to me. She said it about 5 months ago, but it still feels like a slap in the face. Because I have been thinking about it, she didn’t give up on her job, her friends, her family, her(our) kids, but she gave up on me. And if I am taking it personally well, I guess I am. And I have a right to.

Response:

A while ago someone asked if anyone knew what the chances of a marriage lasting that started out with the someone cheating on their spouse, divorcing, and then marrying the other wo/man.  Today on Oprah a man said those marriages only had a ***5%*** chance to make it!  

I didn’t see the original thread, but Frank Pittman estimated the number at 3%, based on the clients from his practice.  The problem with Pittman’s number is that its not derived from a random sample, but OTOH its also from clients who had entered marital therapy to try and save their marriages.  So I find a 5% figure entirely believeable.   Btw, Pittman’s book is _Private Lies_ and it has a very good chapter discussing reasons why such affair-come-marriages usually fail. Drew

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I would like to point out though that sometimes one spouse can feel like they do appreciate the other…but the other doesn’t  "recognize" it because of their own self-esteem issues. I know in my own marriage that this dynamic came into play. My stbx even said to me that he couldn’t understand what I saw in him, so how could he believe that I really appreciated him? That’s not to say that I didn’t make mistakes, though. One of the reasons that my stbx says he fell out of love with me is because he felt I found him "lacking". Hmm…he ended up cheating on me and leaving the marriage by the back door….would society call that "lacking"? LOL In retrospect, I probably did take him for granted and didn’t appreciate him as much as he needed. But that was the rub….how much did he need to feel appreciated? And could I really "give" that to him? Karin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Janie, I think you really have an excellent point.  People NEED to feel they are loved, wanted and needed.  It’s not something that is just nice to have, but it’s a need within everyone (at least that I have ever met).  Maybe it all boils down to a need to feel like we matter to someone. I heard on another show yesterday, that a survey taken of men and women who had left marriages, found the single most popular "reason" given was that they no longer felt "appreciated."  (And Dale Carnegie reminds readers that next to food, sleep, sex, feeling "important" is the highest priority humans have.  Freud called it "feeling greatness."  Can’t remember who substituted "important" for "greatness", but the concept is the same.  Its a human drive that can’t be denied.  Its what drives the majority of what they do. Is it that simple?  Is that what makes people say, "I love you but am no longer in love with you,"?  Is that what makes people look for "appreciation" somewhere else?  Something worth pondering as I prepare to enter into the world of intimacy again, for sure. Janie Before you buy.

– "Circumstances do not make a person, they reveal him or her." –Richard Carlson

Response:

So let’s check the scoreboard: I scored direct hits with "self-righteous, judgemental, oversensitive, (and) counseled", but probably should have also included "overanalyzed, politically correct, and totally lacking in a sense of humor" in describing ASD inhabitants. Splitting sentences and paragraphs and launching into expositions between the paragraphs posing questions and answering the same in a manner meant to be unfavorable to another with a differening viewpoint is an oddly familiar pattern which I recognize from my distant past.  Luckily I am "divorced’ from that now. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Interesting observation, but as is the case with many people in thie NG, a very narrow viewpoint. Actually not.  If someone has created a pattern in his or her life it is very reasonable to believe that that pattern will continue unless they consciously make an effort to change it. Just like asking people if they would eat rats and bugs to "survive: (I did not watch the show, although I did hear about the rodentmania) – most would say "no I would rather die" but in fact, when the chips are down you would probably rather NOT die. I don’t think comparing day-to-day life with survivor tactics is reasonable.  Two completely different situations. So here we have the ihabitants of ASD, the majority of which are self-righteous, judgemental, oversensitive, counseled, self-helped, 12-stepped, empowered (women only), whipped (men only), and (if you ask them) all-knowing experts in the field of human relations. Do you really see yourself that way?  I guess your self respect has suffered a lot do to your past adultery.  Most people are much better than that.  It’s a real shame you view yourself so low. If a person is unhappy, they assume that there are roads unexplored, if they cheat, they are the bad guy. Do you know why they are the bad guys?  Do you think it is merely because they have caused pain to those around them; those people they promised to protect and love?  Or have damaged their children’s lives and put them at greater risk for serious problems?  It’s not.  Actually one reason is much more fundamental than that.  I have seldom read/heard anyone (even those who cheated) say it was a good thing to do, the right thing to do, and/or the moral thing to do.  What is usually said is something like, "I know it was wrong, but I was so unhappy (add your own word)

sex – seriously

Question:

I was waiting for a good time to post this ( see # 16 )                Rules that guys wished women knew

And I’m glad you found that good time — what a riot!  Thanks! Wendy

Response:

Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.  I can start with a normal BG (yes, I do check just in case) and afterwards I jump 50 – 100 points. Exactly the opposite for me. My sugars drop faster than my pants do and usually WHILE we’re "participating" and if not than ALWAYS after.

So, um, do you, uh, measure your blood sugar during sex?  Doesn’t that, like, spoil the moment? Gwen

Response:

says… Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.

I have a theory.  Do you call your partner ‘honey’, ’sugar’, ’sweety’ etc?  May I suggest ‘aspertame’, ’splenda’ and other names that are less likely to raise your blood glucose.  I called my wife aspertame and she slugged me – no sex for a week but good BG readings. 8-). …Rob

Response:

I tried that one night. Called my wife Stevia in a fit of passion. She slapped me so hard it hasn’t been that way since. Carefull there – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do. I have a theory.  Do you call your partner ‘honey’, ’sugar’, ’sweety’ etc? May I suggest ‘aspertame’, ’splenda’ and other names that are less likely to raise your blood glucose.  I called my wife aspertame and she slugged me – no sex for a week but good BG readings. 8-). …Rob

Response:

Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.  I can start with a normal BG (yes, I do check just in case) and afterwards I jump 50 – 100 points. Exactly the opposite for me. My sugars drop faster than my pants do and usually WHILE we’re "participating" and if not than ALWAYS after. So, um, do you, uh, measure your blood sugar during sex?  

It’s very easy to feel the drop, particularly when it hits the low 30’s, and if it’s a "quickie" it happens during the first hour. Sometimes though I take it easy and don’t rush it, which means I have to occasionally stop for a cup o’ tea and a fag, so I take that opportunity to test. Simple when you know how. Doesn’t that, like, spoil the moment?

MOMENT??? Don’t you mean NIGHT?? Beav

Response:

says… Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do. I have a theory.  Do you call your partner ‘honey’, ’sugar’, ’sweety’ etc?  May I suggest ‘aspertame’, ’splenda’ and other names that are less likely to raise your blood glucose.  I called my wife aspertame and she slugged me – no sex for a week but good BG readings. 8-).

Call her Prudy next time, and you’ll have a month or so of good BG readings (If you’re married to Beanie, it could even be the perfect cure:-) Beav

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – says… Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do. I have a theory.  Do you call your partner ‘honey’, ’sugar’, ’sweety’ etc?  May I suggest ‘aspertame’, ’splenda’ and other names that are less likely to raise your blood glucose.  I called my wife aspertame and she slugged me – no sex for a week but good BG readings. 8-). Call her Prudy next time, and you’ll have a month or so of good BG readings (If you’re married to Beanie, it could even be the perfect cure:-) Beav

Hee hee!!!!!   Call me Prudy and you might not have a BG reading :-p Beanie, Type I (Humalog and Ultralente) Remove the "IE" to send email

Response:

Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.  I can start with a normal BG (yes, I do check just in case) and afterwards I jump 50 – 100 points. I know how to count carbs but how do you cover that???  I thought exercise lowered your BG’s. Is there a 1500 rule for it or something?  Good thing I don’t get it too often! Just wondering. — Frank

Response:

I think you’re onto something. If it’s true that the postpubescent/premenopausal male actually thinks about sex 16-20 times a day, and that sex is really all in your head anyway, maybe we have a solution to BGs superior to UltraLente. Now if only the ADA can convince the required number of lab rats….. Jim —calling my broker to buy some saltpeter shares – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.  I can start with a normal BG (yes, I do check just in case) and afterwards I jump 50 – 100 points. I know how to count carbs but how do you cover that???  I thought exercise lowered your BG’s. Is there a 1500 rule for it or something?  Good thing I don’t get it too often! Just wondering. — Frank

Response:

<snip In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars.

If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex? — Elaine T2 11/98 diet & exercise For e-mail remove spamfree

Response:

In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars.

If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex?

Ah… because so much blood rushed away from the "top" end that they are dizzy ???  (sorry, couldn’t resist <g) John Thomas Smith http://www.pacifier.com/~jtsmith house for sale information at http://www.pacifier.com/~tkaufman

Response:

dejanews.com writes Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.  I can start with a normal BG (yes, I do check just in case) and afterwards I jump 50 – 100 points.

Exactly the opposite for me. My sugars drop faster than my pants do and usually WHILE we’re "participating" and if not than ALWAYS after. I know how to count carbs but how do you cover that???

I eat a Mars bar before getting down to it, although I don’t suppose that’d be a good thing for you to try.  I thought exercise lowered your BG’s. Is there a 1500 rule for it or something?  Good thing I don’t get it too often!

1500 isn’t too often?? I’m lucky if I reach 3, I’m happy with 2, but usually have to settle for 1 and a cup of cocoa Beav

Response:

Anger can raise my BG 40 points while fasting. If you’re sexually aroused, you’re spilling neurotransmitters and steroid-like hormones into your bloodstream. It’s not surprising that they can overpower the benefits of exercise. Exercise without sexual arousal is different. It’s sensible for the body to increase blood sugar during these times, but it’s easier to raise a diabetic’s blood sugar than to lower it. -MT

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Does anyone find that their BG’s rise after sex?  Mine do.  I can start with a normal BG (yes, I do check just in case) and afterwards I jump 50 – 100 points. I know how to count carbs but how do you cover that???  I thought exercise lowered your BG’s. Is there a 1500 rule for it or something?  Good thing I don’t get it too often! Just wondering. — Frank

Response:

<snip In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars. If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex?

Boredom! Beav

Response:

Muscles relese glycogen into blood stream and bg levels will rise if there is not enough insulin to cover it.  Also adrenalin plays a role.  You may also be having some emotional stress that would raise your level. In any event if I were you I would wait and test after sex and adjust the level.  I would rather worry about a high then a possible interruption to sex!

Response:

In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars. If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex? Ah… because so much blood rushed away from the "top" end that they are dizzy ???  (sorry, couldn’t resist <g)

But then men should fall asleep during sex. Afterwards the blood comes puring back.

Response:

<snip In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars. If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex?

Because most men are severely deprived of sleep. Sex releases tension which is what basically keeps sleep deprived people awake. I’m suprised most women don’t also fall asleep right after sex ( for the same reason).

Response:

Depends on whether the woman had an orgasm to achieve the "tension release." All too often guys don’t pay attention and women fake it, so no tension release, no urge to sleep. — Nanuq of the North, T2, 6 years, glucophage, diet & (not enough) exercise Remove grzl to send email: I’m only a grizzly when my bgs are low! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <snip In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars. If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex? Because most men are severely deprived of sleep. Sex releases tension which is what basically keeps sleep deprived people awake. I’m suprised most women don’t also fall asleep right after sex ( for the same reason).

Response:

w Is there a 1500 rule for it or something?  Good thing I don’t get it too often! 1500 isn’t too often?? I’m lucky if I reach 3, I’m happy with 2, but usually have to settle for 1 and a cup of cocoa

The 1500 rule relates to insulin sensitivity. It tells how much your BG is likely to fall in mg/dl for each unit of insulin. fall=1500/insulin per day. If you take 40  units per day  that would be 1500/40 or about 38 mg/dl.

Response:

Depends on whether the woman had an orgasm to achieve the "tension release." All too often guys don’t pay attention and women fake it, so no tension release, no urge to sleep. What about the CHAPS that have to fake orgasm eh? Beav

<rolls her eyes in her head We’re all so worried.

Response:

I thought is was pussies that came "puring" back Beav

my putty tats purrrrrrrr and stalk me dirty laundrey. they are imp probable kittties….most irrregular one cat we call ttk toilet toe kitty because he it bites me toes when i am captive to the porcelain throne. he also stalks my track ball.  the long haired dachshund noisette coquette nisette stalks ttk because both like me naked. so does my pore spouse eadred reid…i hiss and spitt at him not realising  he  is  a  human being….he reeelllly pongs like my cats marking their territory. sigh what i reelly need is a racoon skin coat any size will do and squirrelly hat with most improbable cat tails or may haps squirrelly or possum tails… all from road kill…..dust tracks in the road. is all hannibal the cannibal is to me. his elephants didnea like him at all. mel melynda reid  who wears hats but does not type caps               as she hates to commit a capital offense i remain a shy and retiring artist without portfolio seriously seeking homeo stasis oh whither art thou homeo??? the over forty wicked wackey mermaid revue has just begun. stay attuned for the next episode..

Response:

In a non-diabetic this would probably mean an energy burst, but for us it just means higher blood sugars. If that’s true, then why do men fall asleep after sex? Ah… because so much blood rushed away from the "top" end that they are dizzy ???  (sorry, couldn’t resist <g) But then men should fall asleep during sex. Afterwards the blood comes puring back.

I thought is was pussies that came "puring" back Beav

Response:

Depends on whether the woman had an orgasm to achieve the "tension release." All too often guys don’t pay attention and women fake it, so no tension release, no urge to sleep.

What about the CHAPS that have to fake orgasm eh? Beav

Response:

Depends on whether the woman had an orgasm to achieve the "tension release." All too often guys don’t pay attention and women fake it, so no tension release, no urge to sleep. — Nanuq of the North, T2, 6 years, glucophage, diet & (not enough) exercise Remove grzl to send email: I’m only a grizzly when my bgs are low!

I was waiting for a good time to post this ( see # 16 )                Rules that guys wished women knew 1. If you think you’re fat, you probably are. Don’t ask us. 2. Learn to work the toilet seat; if it’s up put it down. 3. Don’t cut your hair. Ever. 4. Sometimes, he’s not thinking about you. Live with it. 5. Get rid of your cat. 6. Sunday = Sports. 7. Anything you wear is fine. Really. 8. You have enough clothes. 9. You have too many shoes. 10. Crying is blackmail. 11. Ask for what you want. Subtle hints don’t work. 12. Mark anniversaries on a calendar. 13. Yes, peeing standing up is more difficult than peeing from point        blank range. We’re bound to miss sometimes. 14. Yes and No are perfectly acceptable answers. 15. A headache that lasts for 17 months is a problem. See a doctor. 16. Don’t fake it. We’d rather be ineffective than deceived. 17. Anything we said 6 or 8 months ago is inadmissible in an argument. 18. If you don’t dress like the Victoria’s Secret girls, don’t expect us     to act like soap opera guys. 19. If something we said can be interpreted two ways, and one of the        ways makes you sad and angry, we meant the other way. 20. Let us ogle. If we don’t look at other women, how can we know how       pretty you are? 21. Don’t rub the lamp if you don’t want the genie to come out. 22. You can either ask us to do something OR tell us how you want it        done

New Breakthrough in Anti-Aging

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I found this pertinent to me….since I also distribute the product….you may not wish to read on. The following is an exert from an aticle written by Ralph N. Norris in Benning’s Health & Fitness Journal, Summer 1998, Issue 8. New Breakthrough Supplement Revealed Scientifically proven to reduce body fat (without working out), increase energy and boost sexual performance. Science and technology may have just made the onset effects of aging an option, rather than an inevitable fact of life. After more than 15,000 studies in the last 60 years, science has demonstrated that Growth Hormone (commonly referred to as GH or HGH), a naturally occurring substance in the body, can allow users to lose fat, build lean muscle, sleep better, improve sexual performance and pleasure, increase energy and motivation, soften skin and wrinkles, and possibly even more. GH is naturally produced by our bodies in abundance when we are young, and its production gradually slows over time. While GH is not new, its availability as a supplement has been limited. Specialized clinics and physicians have been using GH for over 30 years on thousands of patients with consistent results. Unfortunately, due to the high costs previously associated with GH, only the medical profession and the wealthy have been privy to its benefits. Another problem has been that the large GH molecule, composed of 191 amino acids (protein), has been only effectively administered through injections. However, a new technology by an American company has made GH affordable and convenient to take. How GH Works GH release in the body is contolled by the pituitary gland. Unlike other hormones, GH affects almost every body tissue. Gh is a master hormone controlling many organs and body functions and is directly responsible for stimulating tissue repair, cell replacement, brain function, and enzyme function. Thus, GH’s rejuvenating effects seem to affect both the mind and body. Scientific Studies Demonstrate GH Benefits Thousands of scientific studies have documented GH’s many effects over the last 60 years. Use of GH has been shown to positively affect weight loss and lean muscle, sleep, sex drive, skin appearance and even depression. Weight Loss and Lean Muscle In his book, Grow Young With HGH, Ronald KLATZ M.D., reports the Rudman study where subjects on GH acheived an average 14.4% loss of body fat and an 8.8% increase in lean body mass (muscle) without exercise over a six month period. This is asignificant finding since as we age our bodies lose (muscle) and gain fat. This is the main reason our bodies do not have the tone and firmness we had when we were younger. Many users of GH report a younger appearance and developing more youthful, shapely bodies. The results of another study showed a loss of 5% body fat and of roughly 5% in lean body mass gain without exercise. Other studies show that GH, when combined with proper nutrition, resulted in a 25% increase in fat loss while retaining lean muscle. For instance, at Sahlgrenska Hospital in Sweden, men using HGH lost 20% body fat mainly from the abdomen over a six-month period. GH promotes the burning of fat by making it available to the body as fuel. In other words, fat loss while using GH increases the energy expenditure so that calories are actually burned faster, often without exercise. On GH, body fat is usually lost until the fat percentage of the body returns to normal levels and while losing fat on GH, gains in muscle also occur. Better Sleep Studies have shown that adults who have low levels of GH have abnormal sleep patterns resulting in depression, mood swings, and lowered immune response. Many individuals who use GH report that they sleep better, deeper, and wake well rested and refreshed. This seems to be the result of GH’s regenerative effects, since deep sleep is when the body rejuvenates and repairs itself. Better Sex? Age decreases the sex drive in both men and women with about 75% of men experiencing impotence by the age of 80. One clinical study with GH showed 75% of the subjects had an increase in potency and 62% were able to sustain an erection for a greater length of time. Clinically and in real life, GH appears to outperform Viagra, and has no side effects. <P.S. I am on HGH for about a week now, will advise personal progress as effects take place Women also have experienced noticeable and dramatic improvements in their sexual function. Women using GH experience an increase in arousal, more comfort during intercourse, and the ability to experience multiple orgasms. GH’s promotion of blood flow and cellular regeneration is most likely responsible; men typically notice more frequent erections and women experience more lubrication offsetting the vaginal dryness which accompanies aging. Skin and Appearance GH acts as a natural cosmetic for both men and women. GH users often report their skin softens and tightens, wrinkles are smoothed, and a more youthful appearance is obtained. GH does this by promoting cellular renewal and rehydration (aging skin occurs from dehydration). GH’s Effects on Moods and Depression Many GH users notice youthful vigor, happiness, better moods, and the elimination of depression and even chronic fatigue. Roy Dittman O.M.D., a GH and anti-aging specialist reports that many of the doctors who have used GH on their patients have told him, "It is the most powerful psychiatric substance they have ever used in their practice." Just like Viagra, GH could be a safe and effective alternative to Prozac, without the associated side effects. Other Applications Numerous clinical studies have shown positive outcomes for the following: improved exercise tolerance and performance, reduction of cellulite, faster injury healing, improved vision, reduction of high blood pressure, increase in HDL cholesterol, decrease in LDL cholesterol, reversal of osteoporosis, enhanced immune function, and increased energy and stamina.<improving memory, restoring lost hair and color, strengthens the function of the heart, as well as increased insulin release stimulated by Growth Hormone The GH uses is natural and plant-derived and not derived from cadavers or animals. The product is available in a safe and effective oral spray. It is absorbed directly to the pituitary gland, avoiding inactivation in the digestive process. A month supply of Lifetrim 1 is $150.00 a month and comes with a Money Back Guarantee. Get the softcover book "Grow Young With HGH" by Dr. Ronald Klatz, Get the product by visiting my website at http://www.i-ops.com/hezekiel or via e-mail. After you try the product, you may find you are even interested in the business opportunity. Who knows. Kindly, Zeke Aris   Aris Telecom   Zeke Aris                      HTML Mail   1562 First Avenue  Work: 718-549-4490   # 221              Fax: 718-549-7986   New York           Netscape Conference Address   NY   10028-4004   USA   Additional Information:   Last Name      Aris   First Name     Zeke   Version        2.1   Aris Telecom   Zeke Aris                      HTML Mail   1562 First Avenue  Work: 718-549-4490   # 221              Fax: 718-549-7986   New York           Netscape Conference Address   NY   10028-4004   USA   Additional Information:   Last Name      Aris   First Name     Zeke   Version        2.1   Aris Telecom   Zeke Aris                      HTML Mail   1562 First Avenue  Work: 718-549-4490   # 221              Fax: 718-549-7986   New York           Netscape Conference Address   NY   10028-4004   USA   Additional Information:   Last Name      Aris   First Name     Zeke   Version        2.1

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Response:

 The following is an exert from an article written by Ralph N. Norris in – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Benning’s Health & Fitness Journal, Summer 1998, Issue 8. New Breakthrough Supplement Revealed  Scientifically proven to reduce body fat (without working out), increase  energy and boost sexual performance.  Science and technology may have just made the onset effects of aging an  option, rather than an inevitable fact of life. After more than 15,000  studies in the last 60 years, science has demonstrated that Growth  Hormone (commonly referred to as GH or HGH), a naturally occurring  substance in the body, can allow users to lose fat, build lean muscle,  sleep better, improve sexual performance and pleasure, increase energy and motivation, soften skin and wrinkles, and possibly even more.  GH is naturally produced by our bodies in abundance when we are young, and its production gradually slows over time. While GH is not new, its  availability as a supplement has been limited. Specialized clinics and  physicians have been using GH for over 30 years on thousands of patients  with consistent results.  Unfortunately, due to the high costs previously associated with GH, only  the medical profession and the wealthy have been privy to its benefits.  Another problem has been that the large GH molecule, composed of 191  amino acids (protein), has been only effectively administered through  injections. However, a new technology by an American company has made GH  affordable and convenient to take.  How GH Works  GH release in the body is contolled by the pituitary gland. Unlike other  hormones, GH affects almost every body tissue. Gh is a master hormone  controlling many organs and body functions and is directly responsible  for stimulating tissue repair, cell replacement, brain function, and  enzyme function. Thus, GH’s rejuvenating effects seem to affect both the  mind and body.  Scientific Studies Demonstrate GH Benefits  Thousands of scientific studies have documented GH’s many effects over  the last 60 years. Use of GH has been shown to positively affect weight  loss and lean muscle, sleep, sex drive, skin appearance and even  depression.  Weight Loss and Lean Muscle  In his book, Grow Young With HGH, Ronald KLATZ M.D., reports the Rudman  study where subjects on GH acheived an average 14.4% loss of body fat  and an 8.8% increase in lean body mass (muscle) without exercise over a  six month period. This is asignificant finding since as we age our  bodies lose (muscle) and gain fat. This is the main reason our bodies do  not have the tone and firmness we had when we were younger. Many users  of GH report a younger appearance and developing more youthful, shapely  bodies. The results of another study showed a loss of 5% body fat and of  roughly 5% in lean body mass gain without exercise.  Other studies show that GH, when combined with proper nutrition,  resulted in a 25% increase in fat loss while retaining lean muscle. For instance, at Sahlgrenska Hospital in Sweden, men using HGH lost 20% body fat mainly from the abdomen over a six-month period. GH promotes the burning of fat by making it available to the body as  fuel. In other words, fat loss while using GH increases the energy  expenditure so that calories are actually burned faster, often without  exercise. On GH, body fat is usually lost until the fat percentage of  the body returns to normal levels and while losing fat on GH, gains in  muscle also occur.  Better Sleep  Studies have shown that adults who have low levels of GH have abnormal  sleep patterns resulting in depression, mood swings, and lowered immune  response. Many individuals who use GH report that they sleep better,  deeper, and wake well rested and refreshed. This seems to be the result  of GH’s regenerative effects, since deep sleep is when the body  rejuvenates and repairs itself.  Better Sex?  Age decreases the sex drive in both men and women with about 75% of men  experiencing impotence by the age of 80.  One clinical study with GH showed 75% of the subjects had an increase in  potency and 62% were able to sustain an erection for a greater length of  time. Clinically and in real life, GH appears to outperform Viagra, and  has no side effects. <P.S. I am on HGH for about a week now, will advise  personal progress as effects take place  Women also have experienced noticeable and dramatic improvements in  their sexual function. Women using GH experience an increase in arousal,  more comfort during intercourse, and the ability to experience multiple  orgasms. GH’s promotion of blood flow and cellular regeneration is most  likely responsible; men typically notice more frequent erections and women experience more lubrication offsetting the vaginal dryness which  accompanies aging. Skin and Appearance  GH acts as a natural cosmetic for both men and women. GH users often  report their skin softens and tightens, wrinkles are smoothed, and a   more youthful appearance is obtained. GH does this by promoting cellular renewal and rehydration (aging skin occurs from dehydration). GH’s Effects on Moods and Depression Many GH users notice youthful vigor, happiness, better moods, and the elimination of depression and even chronic fatigue. Roy Dittman O.M.D.,  a GH and anti-aging specialist reports that many of the doctors who have  used GH on their patients have told him, "It is the most powerful  psychiatric substance they have ever used in their practice." Just like  Viagra (available via http://KwikMed.com/viagra/101848), GH could be a safe and effective alternative to Prozac, without  the associated side effects.  Other Applications  Numerous clinical studies have shown positive outcomes for the  following: improved exercise tolerance and performance, reduction of  cellulite, faster injury healing, improved vision, reduction of high  blood pressure, increase in HDL cholesterol, decrease in LDL  cholesterol, reversal of osteoporosis, enhanced immune function, and  increased energy and stamina.<improving memory, restoring lost hair and  color, strengthens the function of the heart, as well as increased  insulin release stimulated by Growth Hormone  The GH uses is natural and plant-derived and not derived from cadavers  or animals. The product is available in a safe and effective oral spray.  It is absorbed directly to the pituitary gland, avoiding inactivation in  the digestive process. A month supply of Lifetrim 1 is $150.00 a month  and comes with a Money Back Guarantee.  Get the softcover book "Grow Young With HGH" by Dr. Ronald Klatz,  Get the product by visiting my website at http://www.i-ops.com/hezekiel  or via e-mail. After you try the product, you may find you are even  interested in the business opportunity. Who knows.  Kindly,  Zeke Aris

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Response:

I found this pertinent to me….since I also distribute the product….you may not wish to read on. The following is an exert from an aticle written by Ralph N. Norris in Benning’s Health & Fitness Journal, Summer 1998, Issue 8. New Breakthrough Supplement Revealed Scientifically proven to reduce body fat (without working out), increase energy and boost sexual performance. Science and technology may have just made the onset effects of aging an option, rather than an inevitable fact of life. After more than 15,000 studies in the last 60 years, science has demonstrated that Growth Hormone (commonly referred to as GH or HGH), a naturally occurring substance in the body, can allow users to lose fat, build lean muscle, sleep better, improve sexual performance and pleasure, increase energy and motivation, soften skin and wrinkles, and possibly even more. GH is naturally produced by our bodies in abundance when we are young, and its production gradually slows over time. While GH is not new, its availability as a supplement has been limited. Specialized clinics and physicians have been using GH for over 30 years on thousands of patients with consistent results. Unfortunately, due to the high costs previously associated with GH, only the medical profession and the wealthy have been privy to its benefits. Another problem has been that the large GH molecule, composed of 191 amino acids (protein), has been only effectively administered through injections. However, a new technology by an American company has made GH affordable and convenient to take. How GH Works GH release in the body is contolled by the pituitary gland. Unlike other hormones, GH affects almost every body tissue. Gh is a master hormone controlling many organs and body functions and is directly responsible for stimulating tissue repair, cell replacement, brain function, and enzyme function. Thus, GH’s rejuvenating effects seem to affect both the mind and body. Scientific Studies Demonstrate GH Benefits Thousands of scientific studies have documented GH’s many effects over the last 60 years. Use of GH has been shown to positively affect weight loss and lean muscle, sleep, sex drive, skin appearance and even depression. Weight Loss and Lean Muscle In his book, Grow Young With HGH, Ronald KLATZ M.D., reports the Rudman study where subjects on GH acheived an average 14.4% loss of body fat and an 8.8% increase in lean body mass (muscle) without exercise over a six month period. This is asignificant finding since as we age our bodies lose (muscle) and gain fat. This is the main reason our bodies do not have the tone and firmness we had when we were younger. Many users of GH report a younger appearance and developing more youthful, shapely bodies. The results of another study showed a loss of 5% body fat and of roughly 5% in lean body mass gain without exercise. Other studies show that GH, when combined with proper nutrition, resulted in a 25% increase in fat loss while retaining lean muscle. For instance, at Sahlgrenska Hospital in Sweden, men using HGH lost 20% body fat mainly from the abdomen over a six-month period. GH promotes the burning of fat by making it available to the body as fuel. In other words, fat loss while using GH increases the energy expenditure so that calories are actually burned faster, often without exercise. On GH, body fat is usually lost until the fat percentage of the body returns to normal levels and while losing fat on GH, gains in muscle also occur. Better Sleep Studies have shown that adults who have low levels of GH have abnormal sleep patterns resulting in depression, mood swings, and lowered immune response. Many individuals who use GH report that they sleep better, deeper, and wake well rested and refreshed. This seems to be the result of GH’s regenerative effects, since deep sleep is when the body rejuvenates and repairs itself. Better Sex? Age decreases the sex drive in both men and women with about 75% of men experiencing impotence by the age of 80. One clinical study with GH showed 75% of the subjects had an increase in potency and 62% were able to sustain an erection for a greater length of time. Clinically and in real life, GH appears to outperform Viagra, and has no side effects. <P.S. I am on HGH for about a week now, will advise personal progress as effects take place Women also have experienced noticeable and dramatic improvements in their sexual function. Women using GH experience an increase in arousal, more comfort during intercourse, and the ability to experience multiple orgasms. GH’s promotion of blood flow and cellular regeneration is most likely responsible; men typically notice more frequent erections and women experience more lubrication offsetting the vaginal dryness which accompanies aging. Skin and Appearance GH acts as a natural cosmetic for both men and women. GH users often report their skin softens and tightens, wrinkles are smoothed, and a more youthful appearance is obtained. GH does this by promoting cellular renewal and rehydration (aging skin occurs from dehydration). GH’s Effects on Moods and Depression Many GH users notice youthful vigor, happiness, better moods, and the elimination of depression and even chronic fatigue. Roy Dittman O.M.D., a GH and anti-aging specialist reports that many of the doctors who have used GH on their patients have told him, "It is the most powerful psychiatric substance they have ever used in their practice." Just like Viagra, GH could be a safe and effective alternative to Prozac, without the associated side effects. Other Applications Numerous clinical studies have shown positive outcomes for the following: improved exercise tolerance and performance, reduction of cellulite, faster injury healing, improved vision, reduction of high blood pressure, increase in HDL cholesterol, decrease in LDL cholesterol, reversal of osteoporosis, enhanced immune function, and increased energy and stamina.<improving memory, restoring lost hair and color, strengthens the function of the heart, as well as increased insulin release stimulated by Growth Hormone The GH uses is natural and plant-derived and not derived from cadavers or animals. The product is available in a safe and effective oral spray. It is absorbed directly to the pituitary gland, avoiding inactivation in the digestive process. A month supply of Lifetrim 1 is $150.00 a month and comes with a Money Back Guarantee. Get the softcover book "Grow Young With HGH" by Dr. Ronald Klatz, Get the product by visiting my website at http://www.i-ops.com/hezekiel or via e-mail. After you try the product, you may find you are even interested in the business opportunity. Who knows. Kindly, Zeke Aris

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